Died and won't start

[lather]

I was accelerating hard in 4th and hit the rev limiter, went to shift up and the bike died, instinctively pulled in clutch I think, coasted, tried starter, nothing. Shifted down and let out clutch, nothing. Coasted to a stop and tried starter, Starter spins fast but seems like the engine is not turning over. Got trailered home by a good samaritan. Honda rider.

I will try to attach a recording.

[Throttle 8]

Don't shoot the messenger, but maybe check you didn't accidentally hit the kill switch ever so slightly. Don't ask me how I know this can happen!

[B.D.F.]

Rode home with a Honda rider.... you mean you rode Bi&@h? Oh, the shame.

 

OK, first of all, sorry to hear about this Bob.

Second thing- the first two times you hit the starter and said you got "nothing", did the starter engage and spin up as it did after you stopped? I will continue in the assumption that the starter has always spun up and your mention of "nothing" means it did not start.

If the starter spins, it spins faster than usual and / or there is no 'cranking' or 'lobing' sound as the starter is turning, it generally means one of two things, unfortunately both bad in this case.
1) Starter clutch is shot. This one is fairly cheap but the R&R of the drive comes AFTER the key words 'remove engine'. Ugh. So the good news / bad news is that this is not likely IMO given the fact that the bike quit on you at high speed in the first place.
2) Broken cam chain. Double UGH on this one. The engine may be turning but unusually fast and not 'lobing' because there is no compression 'cause  the valves are not working.

You will have to determine which one of these things it is by perhaps pulling the right side crankcase cover and watching to see if the crankshaft turns when the starter is turning; if it is, then it is likely a valve train failure, again the most likely culprit is going to be the timing chain although it could be a cam chain sprocket on the engine or similar. If the engine does NOT turn when the starter does turn, then it is almost certainly the starter drive.

But again, given the fact that you had a failure at speed rather than a simple 'failure to start', I suspect the valve train, which would also cause the engine stoppage in the first place as well as the failure to start afterward.

Sorry to hear this Bob.

Brian

I was accelerating hard in 4th and hit the rev limiter, went to shift up and the bike died, instinctively pulled in clutch I think, coasted, tried starter, nothing. Shifted down and let out clutch, nothing. Coasted to a stop and tried starter, Starter spins fast but seems like the engine is not turning over. Got trailered home by a good samaritan. Honda rider.

I will try to attach a recording.

[B.D.F.]

Starter will not turn with the kill switch in the 'OFF' position on any Japanese bike that I know of. Certainly not on the C-14.

It ain't gonna' be quite that easy I am afraid.

Brian

Don't shoot the messenger, but maybe check you didn't accidentally hit the kill switch ever so slightly. Don't ask me how I know this can happen!

[lather]

Thank you Throttle for the optimism. Thank you Brian for the two miserable realistic realistic possibilities and diagnostic procedure instructions.

I did not ride bitch, Lane was riding with his son Riley on back. They went home to get truck and trailer, loaded me up and drove me 30 miles home. Refused payment.

[jwh20]

Check the simple stuff first.  I'd look at the battery and the battery connections.  Either one will shut the bike down.  Check the connections especially the ground from the (-) lead to the frame and the one next to it.  These can corrode and make for a bad ground connection.

Take the battery to an auto parts store and have it load tested.  A cell can fail anytime and the electronics will shutdown killing the ignition and/or fuel injection.  No battery = no run on these bikes.

Beyond that you have more difficult problems but the fact that the starter runs but doesn't pull in and engage the engine leads me to believe it is an electrical issue.

[lather]

OK pulled the timing cover off. The crankshaft spins when the starter spins. The cam chain is taut and intact. The manual troubleshooter says"
Starter motor rotating but engine doesn’t
turn over:
Vehicle-down sensor (DFI) coming off
Starter clutch trouble
Starter idle gear trouble

I think we can rule out Starter clutch or idle gear since the crankshaft is spinning. I hear the fuel pump so I don't suspect the vehicle down sensor but will check per manual anyway and the batt connection. In the morning. Now I need a whisky,

Since the cam chain seems to be fine I will have to consider sheared  cam sprocket if the easy things don't produce results but if that were the case I would expect plenty top end racket when spinning starter.

[maxtog]

 

[B.D.F.]

Well at least you did not have to ride on the back of a Honda....

OK, great diagnostic start, and I agree with you that you can rule out starter drive and clutch. And if you can see the timing chain going around, certainly that has not snapped so let's consider the valve train running for the moment.

Now, is the engine still spinning fast when engaging the starter or is it at (or close to) normal cranking speed? Does it lobe as it should going through compression  (the high- low- high RPM of a normally aspirating engine)?

At this point, there are two basic choices, 1) mechanical failure but you have ruled out the most likely culprits although of course this does not mean it is 100% certain that all is well, just the 'the usual suspects' are working (starter drive, crank turning, cam chain in place and running at the bottom.... and we will assume at the top as well at this point). 2) Fuel or ignition interruption, both controlled by the ECU. Probably the easiest way to check out the ECU commands at least is to track the wiring down and test them while cranking the engine, looking for pulses that would fire the stick coils or open the fuel injectors. Unfortunately, this may require an oscilloscope or equivalent automotive testing device to check as they pulses will be very fast and of short duration. Now, that said, if the ECU is stopping the bike from starting, there <should> be error code(s) displayed on the LCD.

And still, it is a concern that the bike quit at such high engine speed and load- this does not point to an ECU or electrical / electronic component failure, at least not without the ECU throwing error codes. That said, I believe your symptoms could be, for example, the result of a fuel pump (or fuel pump regulator) failure and I do not think that would throw any codes. I know you said you can hear the fuel pump turn on but we do not know if it is producing any / enough pressure, for example.

Please elaborate about the bike's cranking behavior and we may be able to narrow the choices further.

Brian

OK pulled the timing cover off. The crankshaft spins when the starter spins. The cam chain is taut and intact. The manual troubleshooter says"
Starter motor rotating but engine doesn’t
turn over:
Vehicle-down sensor (DFI) coming off
Starter clutch trouble
Starter idle gear trouble

I think we can rule out Starter clutch or idle gear since the crankshaft is spinning. I hear the fuel pump so I don't suspect the vehicle down sensor but will check per manual anyway and the batt connection. In the morning. Now I need a whisky,

Since the cam chain seems to be fine I will have to consider sheared  cam sprocket if the easy things don't produce results but if that were the case I would expect plenty top end racket when spinning starter.

[lather]

 the engine spins faster than normal, no loping at all. Sounds like an electric motor.

[Tree]

 

Why does this sound like it could use an old fashioned P.O.R.T. (Power Off Reset Test)?  Disconnect the battery.  Enjoy a carbonated beverage of your choosing.  Connect the battery and see if that "reset" the bike.

 
Needed more butter.

[lather]

I dunno but it's certainly worth a try. First thing in the am I'll disconnect the batt, clean up connections, reconnect and give it a try. Beverage will be coffee. Lol

[lather]

I never saw an FI light or an FI message on the display, but I decided to check for any stored codes. Tried the code reading procedure: manual says

Push and turn the key knob to ON. •Push the upper button  and lower button for more
than two seconds. •The service code  is displayed on the LCD by the number of two digits.

Nothing happened when I did this. I assume this means there are no codes stored.

A few minutes ago I connected my Battery Tender Junior Lithium to the Shorai. The tender went into charge mode and stayed there. When the red light goes out I will disconnect the battery and clean up the connections and do a load test on the battery before I hook it back up.

[lather]

No change after disconnecting battery and cleaning all connections and charging battery. Multimeter shows battery at 13.27 volts after charge. Any more suggestions?

I made a couple sound recordings of the starting attempts. THis forum will not allow me to attach these types of files but I have put them on my website if anyone wants to listen.

http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/

[jwh20]

No change after disconnecting battery and cleaning all connections and charging battery. Multimeter shows battery at 13.27 volts after charge. Any more suggestions?

I made a couple sound recordings of the starting attempts. THis forum will not allow me to attach these types of files but I have put them on my website if anyone wants to listen.

http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/

That's a likely cause.  A fully charged unloaded battery should read 14.2-14.4 volts.  Take the battery and have it load tested but I think you'll find it's bad.

[lather]

That's a likely cause.  A fully charged unloaded battery should read 14.2-14.4 volts.  Take the battery and have it load tested but I think you'll find it's bad.

That is what it reads on the display with the motor running. They won't read 14v at rest. My 08 reads 12.67 at rest with the same  external multimeter and it cranks and starts just fine.

If you listen to the recordings it sounds like there is no compression.

[Tree]

Batteries are funky at best.  A load test will be a quick way to rule it out.  They may appear to take a charge but will not actually be storing any energy.  If there is a way to swap it out with a known good battery then try that.  A bad battery will drop voltage way down under load.  Some functionality of the bike may appear to work but there will be that little voice in your brain that's saying "something isn't right with this..."

My battery experience consisted of a normal start and a short ride to the bank one fine day.  When I hopped on to go to the next errand I had no joy.  Some of the electrical stuff worked but it wouldn't start.  I thought, wrongly, that the battery was OK since I had lights and such.  Like I said, batteries can be funky.  Good luck.

[jwh20]

That is what it reads on the display with the motor running. They won't read 14v at rest. My 08 reads 12.67 at rest with the same  external multimeter and it cranks and starts just fine.

If you listen to the recordings it sounds like there is no compression.

Regardless, it's low.  But I suppose you can tear down the top-end as a first step.  My practice, however, is to rule out the simple and generally inexpensive stuff first, and then if the problem remains, check into the more complicated and expensive stuff.  You checked the wiring and that's OK, you tested the battery and it's clearly low.  My recommendation is to rule that out.  Remember that on the C14, as with most ECU controlled vehicles, will crank with LOW battery voltage but the electronics will not work.  So you may get cranking but no spark or fuel.

After that I'd check the starter to make sure it's actually engaging and cranking the engine.  Then I'd check the FI and ignition systems as described in the service manual.  I'd also check the fuel pump and the fuel pressure.

After that I'd probably pull the plugs and do a compression check.  But hey, it's your time and money, do what you think best.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve

[zrx mitch]

Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve

Sounds like it. Has anyone been in the top end recently?

12.8 is a good hot resting charge on a battery, 1.1-1.2V per cell is all you'll get. Have the battery load tested to eliminate that possibility.