Died and won't start

[B.D.F.]

What do you think a healty, fully- charged, 12 volt lead- acid battery should read once the surface charge is gone (read: after sitting, left alone for 24 hrs.)?

Listen to the recording; it is CLEARLY NOT cranking slowly. Not even close. Not even close to normal speed but instead, very fast. And no pulsing to indicate the 'suck, blow' of the 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow' cycles of the engine. The man's bike is not aspirating.

He verified he is actually cranking the engine per the post on the previous page where he was watching the crankshaft turn and the cam chain play around the crankshaft sprocket. This information per post #6 in this thread, from yesterday.

Nice touch with the sarcasm, it goes together really quite well with a lack of reading compression skills shown here.....

It ain't lookin' good for that bike I am afraid....

Brian

Regardless, it's low.  But I suppose you can tear down the top-end as a first step.  My practice, however, is to rule out the simple and generally inexpensive stuff first, and then if the problem remains, check into the more complicated and expensive stuff.  You checked the wiring and that's OK, you tested the battery and it's clearly low.  My recommendation is to rule that out.  Remember that on the C14, as with most ECU controlled vehicles, will crank with LOW battery voltage but the electronics will not work.  So you may get cranking but no spark or fuel.

After that I'd check the starter to make sure it's actually engaging and cranking the engine.  Then I'd check the FI and ignition systems as described in the service manual.  I'd also check the fuel pump and the fuel pressure.

After that I'd probably pull the plugs and do a compression check.  But hey, it's your time and money, do what you think best.

[gPink]

vvt ?

[lather]

Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve

10 or 12 times I have tried it so far I hear nothing but the rapid whirring. One time I heard a very muffled pop.

[lather]

Sounds like it. Has anyone been in the top end recently?

12.8 is a good hot resting charge on a battery, 1.1-1.2V per cell is all you'll get. Have the battery load tested to eliminate that possibility.

Yes. I did a valve adjustment two weeks, 500 miles ago. Was starting and running normally with no unusual noise after the job.  Rode 400 hard and fast miles with an FJR and an R1 last week with never a hint of trouble.

But... Mighty coincidental.  And, seems I have developed a bad tendency lately. As Neil Young sang: Why do I keep fxxxing up?

[lather]

vvt ?

I will read up on that and study the diagrams but I don't think a VVT failure would cause total intake valve failure, just the variable timing.

[B.D.F.]

Interesting and good point I think.

I do not <believe> that a stuck VVT would cause a C-14 to go absolutely dead, no matter where in its travel it was stuck.... or even if it was flopping around loose (Easy Boys!) without any precise timing control. The VVT would normally lock in the fully retarded position but this bike did fail at WOT and redline so it is possible the cam timing is at full- advance. But as I said, I believe the engine would still pump air (aspirate) with the cam fully advanced though that is merely my best guess, not a fact. It is possible that there is enough timing overlap at full VVT advance to prevent any air pumping action from the engine. ??

And we still have to account for the fact that the bike quit running at high speed and under high load. With that factored in, along with the other data presented, including the unusual cranking sound, I think there is a lot of evidence pointing to an internal (Boys!) failure of some kind. And given that it is an '09, and all repair scenarios start and end with the bike's clothes off, engine out, then after whatever repair(s) is needed, engine back in frame, clothes reinstalled, it would require some consideration on the part of the owner as to whether this is realistic to do or not.

Again, not wishing the worst on Bob and I am not a doom- cryer but this is the situation as I see it, given what has already been presented in this thread.  And not to dismiss Bob's difficulties at all, even this is better, IMO, than any significant crash, such as would have probably happened had the engine seized rather than just failed to run. So while not good news, it could absolutely be far worse.

Brian

vvt ?

[gPink]

just throwing it out there, there was this on the cog forum....

I have know idea why that link will not copy unless the original title has been changed. It is concerning a bad vvt actuator. It will show if you type vvt in the search box.

[gPink]

There was the time a bike broke it's tie downs and came off the trailer at a reasonable enough speed that the ins co. wrote it off as totaled....just sayin' 

[Rexter]

In the recording it sounds like a light chuff-chuff-chuff. Is it possible that the cam chain jumped a tooth or two? Run a compression test.

[Bob Skinner]

Before you start tearing the bike down try the old mechanic's trick of throwing money at it. Hold a one dollar bill over the muffler outlet (loosely and by the top of the opening), have someone crank the engine over to see if it's pumping air. If it is moving air the dollar bill should move with each cylinder pulse as the exhaust valve opens.

Bob Skinner

[lather]

just throwing it out there, there was this on the cog forum.... http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/found!!!-nybiomed's-'09-nonrunning-issue-has-been-determined!!!/

Seems to be a the wrong link?

[lather]

Before you start tearing the bike down try the old mechanic's trick of throwing money at it. Hold a one dollar bill over the muffler outlet (loosely and by the top of the opening), have someone crank the engine over to see if it's pumping air. If it is moving air the dollar bill should move with each cylinder pulse as the exhaust valve opens.

Bob Skinner

Had someone at the "other" forum suggest hold hand over muffler outlet while a helper hits the starter. Mentioned that to the wife in the kitchen. She just went on stirring the etoufee, din't even look up. But I can tape the bill to the outlet and do it solo.

[B.D.F.]

She probably did not hear anything after hearing the words 'my exhaust' and 'watching a dollar bill ruffle in 'my exhaust's ' output.

 

Anybody else remember that thread about feeling the exhaust pulses of a C-14 around here from about one million years ago? It was a long thread but more than worth the read as I remember.

That is a good idea though- actually, both of them, the hand over the muffler to feel for pulses and watching a piece of paper for the same pulses.

And the idea that the VVT is fully the wrong way and / or a cam has jumped a tooth (per the other poster) could explain how the engine will not pump air (or not nearly enough) and yet is NOT 'munched' internally. It is possible that the valves are overlapping enough to prevent the engine acting as an air pump and yet the valves did not hit the pistons. So there is the 'cheap 'n easy' out for this one.

My suggestion would be to remove enough of the right side fairings to get at the engine side. You will have to do this for any other test that I can think of anyway. At that point, pull the right side covers and have  a look at the cam timing on both the crankshaft as well as the camshaft. Also, check the VVT to make sure it is all the way back to the 'home' or 'rest' position- not sure how to do that but we can work through it when you get that far. Basically you will have to compare the intake cam position to the intake sprocket position to verify where in the VVT's travel the cam is at this point in time. If the cam chain HAS skipped a tooth, the easiest / cheapest thing to do is to rotate the engine to -zero- timing, remove the cam chain and <gently> try to put the cams back in- time. Then re-install the cam chain and the cam chain tensioner, and then see if the engine will turn over by hand in the correct direction only. If it does and all seems well, hit the starter and see if 1) it works correctly, chugging as an air pump and with a little luck 2) starts or tries to start. At that point you can probably button up the engine covers and actually start it.

All of this is far, far easier than pulling the engine and has a possibility of success. ??

As always, the very best of luck moving forward on this and do keep us abreast 'cause that is where we like to be.

Brian

Had someone at the "other" forum suggest hold hand over muffler outlet while a helper hits the starter. Mentioned that to the wife in the kitchen. She just went on stirring the etoufee, din't even look up. But I can tape the bill to the outlet and do it solo.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

if the cams get out of phase you'll get a check engine light. Steve

[T Cro ®]

Regardless, it's low.  But I suppose you can tear down the top-end as a first step.  My practice, however, is to rule out the simple and generally inexpensive stuff first, and then if the problem remains, check into the more complicated and expensive stuff.  You checked the wiring and that's OK, you tested the battery and it's clearly low.  My recommendation is to rule that out.  Remember that on the C14, as with most ECU controlled vehicles, will crank with LOW battery voltage but the electronics will not work.  So you may get cranking but no spark or fuel.

After that I'd check the starter to make sure it's actually engaging and cranking the engine.  Then I'd check the FI and ignition systems as described in the service manual.  I'd also check the fuel pump and the fuel pressure.

After that I'd probably pull the plugs and do a compression check.  But hey, it's your time and money, do what you think best.

No sorry that is not low... A fully charged 12 volt battery in perfect shape should read 12.73 +/- a little either way depending on age and state of charge...

[jamiemac]

Once You eliminate the battery as the issue, I believe I would move on and do a pulse check on the ignition. Use an old spark plug on one of the stick coils, and ground it on the engine or chassis to see if there's spark. Movie on to a compression check next. Troubleshooting can be a bear, but fuel, air/compression, and spark are the ticket for anything to run. I know it's a lot of work digging into that fairing, but it sounds as if You're headed that way.

Amazon sells a motorcycle specific compression gauge for a reasonable price. https://www.amazon.com/OTC-5604-Motorcycle-Compression-Tester/dp/B002W53J6S

They also have a pretty nifty spark tester for stick coils setups. https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-20700-Coil-Spark-Tester/dp/B00IXMA1RY

Yuasa has a pretty good battery load test procedure on pg 22 of this PDF. http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2014.pdf

[lather]

Again, thanks to all for the support. I ran the dollar bill test a few minutes ago. I get a very slight agitation of the bill, could be just vibration coming through the exhaust pipes. For contrast I did the test on the 08 and get very different result. Of course once the engine fires the bill flaps wildly but before it fires the bill is clearly lifted up and away from the outlet by the engine pumping.

Videos for you viewing pleasure:
 http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/

Thanks Jamiemac for the advice and tool links. I have to go to the city to pick up my track bike at the Yamaha dealer for recall work. Cycle Gear is just up the road from there and I'll stop by and see what tools they have, maybe even buy a new battery. The one in the 08 is getting old.

So at this point I am pretty convinced I have little or no compression possibly due to bent valves but also VVT problem or jumped camshaft or some other mechanic screwup.

[kzz1king]

Valves kissed the pistons. No compression. do you hear it backfire in the intake or exhaust? Steve
[/qu
ote]
Would you get some signs of compression if some cylinder had no bent valves Steve?

[jamiemac]

Again, thanks to all for the support. I ran the dollar bill test a few minutes ago. I get a very slight agitation of the bill, could be just vibration coming through the exhaust pipes. For contrast I did the test on the 08 and get very different result. Of course once the engine fires the bill flaps wildly but before it fires the bill is clearly lifted up and away from the outlet by the engine pumping.

Videos for you viewing pleasure:
 http://www.wfr-ridersclub.com/concours/

Thanks Jamiemac for the advice and tool links. I have to go to the city to pick up my track bike at the Yamaha dealer for recall work. Cycle Gear is just up the road from there and I'll stop by and see what tools they have, maybe even buy a new battery. The one in the 08 is getting old.

So at this point I am pretty convinced I have little or no compression possibly due to bent valves but also VVT problem or jumped camshaft or some other mechanic screwup.

Sorry to hear about Your troubles, brother. Sure hope You get her back on the road soon.

[zrx mitch]

Was this the first time since the valve adjustment that you had revved it that high?