Author Topic: ECU Reflash.  (Read 18170 times)

Offline tbanzer

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ECU Reflash.
« on: February 08, 2018, 01:01:12 PM »
After reading glowing reviews on a few re-flashes, looking to see if there are any done for bikes with the flys removed, and if they are worth the bother and cost.

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 01:23:07 PM »
You can get the bike flashed like I did with the secondaries already removed. Yes it was worth getting the flash when not running secondaries but you will be missing out on some neat features.
Later on  you can put them back in at your leisure .  I no longer had my secondaries so i bought a complete set of throttle bodies from ebay just for the secondary plates and screws.
Do you still have yours? Are you considering leaving them out? it is really easy to install them
 I can tell you the bike  will run better -much better- with them reinstalled (depending on who's flash you use). 
Who's flash are you planning on using?
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 09:32:42 AM »
I still have the removed screws and plates, however one of the screws twisted off so it would make reinstalling them a chore. I havent even thought about picking a  vendor for the reflash. I was under the impression once the flies were removed there was no flash available and not much increase in hp would be realized. My only disappointment with the bike since the first time I picked the bike up was the disappointing hp vs a zx14. I had a C10 and was waiting for a new Concours. Took my buddies new zx14 for a ride then the next day went to the dealer to pick up a new C14 only to find out they denutted or as I call it detuned it. Bought a Busa and the C14 sits alot. The C14 really is a nicer and more refined bike than the Busa however the Busa puts a smile on my face where the C14 is just a really really nice cruiser yawn.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 09:58:22 AM »
I'll start with, there is no way you will turn a C-14 into the same powerhouse as a Busa/ZX-14.
You can improve it a lot, but It's just not the same animal.

Depending on the $$ spent; you can increase it about 20-30 HP with pipes and flash.

On your removed flies; Ebay is your friend. Just change the whole assembly.
         https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-Throttle-Body-Bodies-w-Fuel-Injectors/253391582274?epid=1723704312&hash=item3aff50b442:g:pdUAAOSwVVRaa~vZ&vxp=mtr

If you opt to buy another throttle body, you could buy ZX-14 throttle bodies with injectors instead {they are a bit bigger}, install them and {possibly} find a flash for that set up...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-THROTTLE-BODIES-W-FUEL-INJECTORS-COMPLETE-NICE/263461622142?fits=Make%3AKawasaki&hash=item3d5789517e:g:fLUAAOSwKwVabAdi&vxp=mtr

Daytona {and others}, have already done the fly removal trick w/controller, and many went back to flash with flies..
I know Daytona knows a lot more about this than I...

Ride safe, Ted
   

Offline Conniesaki

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 01:54:59 PM »
... Took my buddies new zx14 for a ride then the next day went to the dealer to pick up a new C14 only to find out they denutted or as I call it detuned it.

Oh man are you gonna get it. Just wait til Max shows up!!

 :popcorn:

Offline gPink

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 01:57:32 PM »
 :rotflmao: :popcorn:

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 02:03:07 PM »
Oh man are you gonna get it. Just wait til Max shows up!!

 :popcorn:
Thats why I did it.DETUNED

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 02:05:24 PM »
I'll start with, there is no way you will turn a C-14 into the same powerhouse as a Busa/ZX-14.
You can improve it a lot, but It's just not the same animal.

Depending on the $$ spent; you can increase it about 20-30 HP with pipes and flash.

On your removed flies; Ebay is your friend. Just change the whole assembly.
         https://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Kawasaki-Concours-14-ABS-ZG1400-Throttle-Body-Bodies-w-Fuel-Injectors/253391582274?epid=1723704312&hash=item3aff50b442:g:pdUAAOSwVVRaa~vZ&vxp=mtr

If you opt to buy another throttle body, you could buy ZX-14 throttle bodies with injectors instead {they are a bit bigger}, install them and {possibly} find a flash for that set up...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-THROTTLE-BODIES-W-FUEL-INJECTORS-COMPLETE-NICE/263461622142?fits=Make%3AKawasaki&hash=item3d5789517e:g:fLUAAOSwKwVabAdi&vxp=mtr

Daytona {and others}, have already done the fly removal trick w/controller, and many went back to flash with flies..
I know Daytona knows a lot more about this than I...

Ride safe, Ted
   
Familiar with the internal changes. I was going to install a turbo till I found out part of the denutting consisted of lower compression cast pistons.

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 03:23:27 PM »
I still have the removed screws and plates, however one of the screws twisted off so it would make reinstalling them a chore. I havent even thought about picking a  vendor for the reflash. I was under the impression once the flies were removed there was no flash available and not much increase in hp would be realized.

Reflashing isn't just about peak horse power, it is also about responsiveness (which is VERY important).  Now, you gained a lot of the responsiveness by removing the flies, but it will lack the "finesse" that makes the C14 so very very nice.  A good flash [without removing the secondary butterflies] really changes the bike immediately, and all for the better (except the intake noise is louder).  Others have posted how much nicer the bike is when they re-installed the "flies" and reflashed it.

Quote
My only disappointment with the bike since the first time I picked the bike up was the disappointing hp vs a zx14. I had a C10 and was waiting for a new Concours. Took my buddies new zx14 for a ride then the next day went to the dealer to pick up a new C14 only to find out they denutted or as I call it detuned it.

It isn't really "detuned", it is "re-tuned" for different/specific purposes like fuel economy, smoothness, comfort, reliability, lower maintenance, etc.  Everything in life is a tradeoff :)  What the C14 is designed/tuned to do, it does well.... except they could have done it better, which is why reflashing helps the bike really become what it should have been in the first place  (because they robbed way too much responsiveness).  But if you aren't looking for refinement, then the C14 probably isn't the best bike for ya, the ZX14 might be a better choice.  Nothing wrong with that.

Oh man are you gonna get it. Just wait til Max shows up!!

I never want to disappoint!
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Conniesaki

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 04:03:29 PM »
...

It isn't really "detuned", it is "re-tuned" for different/specific purposes like fuel economy, smoothness, comfort, reliability, lower maintenance, etc.  Everything in life is a tradeoff :)  What the C14 is designed/tuned to do, it does well.... except they could have done it better, which is why reflashing helps the bike really become what it should have been in the first place  (because they robbed way too much responsiveness).  But if you aren't looking for refinement, then the C14 probably isn't the best bike for ya, the ZX14 might be a better choice.  Nothing wrong with that.

...

Would you settle for "untuned"?





 :P

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 04:07:15 PM »
Would you settle for "untuned"?





 :P
surely an untuned engine wouldn't run correctly full stop ;)
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 05:40:06 PM »
surely an untuned engine wouldn't run correctly full stop ;)

Lesstuned?

Undertuned?

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 09:09:53 PM »
Lesstuned?

Undertuned?

No, no, and no.  Every synonym you offered is still negative and it is not negative.  Here are better alternatives:

Differenttuned
Crosstuned
Othertuned
Purposetuned
Alternativetuned
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 08:22:50 AM »
Tuna
"LOCTITE®"  The original thread locker...  #11  2020 Indian Roadmaster, ABS, Cruise control, heated grips and seats/w/AC 46 Monitoring with cutting edge technology U.N.I.T is Back! Member in good standing with the Knights of MEH.

Offline gPink

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 08:24:51 AM »
piano

Offline turbojoe78

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 08:47:22 AM »
wrong thread
2014 ZG1400 Concours COG memb# 8645


Offline kzz1king

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 08:51:28 AM »
But not a fish.
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 09:01:11 AM »
I will add, due to the mention earlier of "lower compression"... this also ignores that the C14 has variable valve timing which affects the DYNAMIC compression ratio.  No such thing on the ZX14 which doesn't have variable valves- it is designed with a fixed increased cam overlap and a set compression ratio (rougher low RPM riding, lower torque at lower RPM, increased deposits, lower MPG and efficiency).  The number you see on the C14 is the STATIC compression ratio, but the DYNAMIC one increases as the valves are adjusted (the effective compression ratio goes up).  This is also why the C14 calls for high octane gas, even though it seemingly should be fine on lower octane when just looking at the static compression ratio.

What does this mean?  The ZX14 (non R,  the R is a different engine and not what the C14 was based on) is the same displacement, same engine block, and mostly the same head (different cams) (although throttle bodies, and intake/exhaust are larger, which fits the high RPM flow goal) as the C14.  Kawasaki's goal with the C14 was to increase the lower end torque WITHOUT sacrificing smoothness, efficiency, and reliability.  That is why they lowered the STATIC compression ratio (and reduced the TB/intake/exhaust size), and slapped on an expensive VVT so it wouldn't sacrifice too much higher RPM performance in the process.  And it works.  One only has to stop focusing on PEAK HP and look at the lower end torque curve.  For example, the stock C14 at 3KRPM is around 66  FtLbs and the stock ZX14 is *LESS* at around 55!  At 4K, the C14 is around 85 and the ZX14 around 66.   (I took numbers from several dyno charts and runs and averaged them... the trend was clear).  That translates into better "grunt" for the C14 with normal and spirited lower-RPM driving... exactly what you would want and expect from a bike designed for a touring role.  And that performance (yes, it is a measure of performance) isn't free.... IT WAS "TUNED" (if you must use that word) TO BE THAT WAY.

To tie this back to reflashing- the ZX14 has fewer gains at the low-end from reflashing.  Why?  Because I think Kawasaki went a little overboard with "driveability" aspect of the programming of the C14 secondaries.  One look at what a reflash does there makes that shockingly clear:  At 3K RPM, the stock C14 at 70FtLbs of torque goes to 80 with Steve's, 90 with Ivan's, and 93 with Guhl's!  That is an average of +18 FtLbs, that is a huge change; 26% more!

But torque and HP gains are NOTHING compared to the apparent FEEL of power when reflashing (or removing the secondaries).  Why?  Because the worst thing the secondary butterflies do on the stock C14 is introduce severe lag at lower RPM between you asking for power and actually getting it.  They are effectively overriding the throttle input and delaying it.  You might ask for 75% throttle and the computer says "nah, let's make that 50% for now."  That is something YOU CAN'T SEE ON A DYNO CHART!!  Why?  Because a dyno chart has no element of time in it, whatsoever.  It is a plot of RPM vs. power.

Footnotes
http://www.dragtimes.com/images_dyno/9268-2006-Kawasaki-ZX-14-Dyno.jpg
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/_/rsrc/1505486038941/concours1400/EVOLUTION%20vs%20Stock.PNG
http://areapnolimits.com/images/product/c14_dyno_big.gif
http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=68/category_id=13/mode=prod/prd68.htm
[url=http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2006/11/01november06_concoursvvt]http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2006/11/01november06_concoursvvt

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400%20Stk%20vs%20Ivans%20ECU_stock%20ex.gif
https://a4.pbase.com/o6/41/9841/1/135735643.jqdNLgKf.C144thGearPullsStockvsMod.jpg

« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 03:56:14 PM by maxtog »
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline just gone

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 10:18:50 AM »

Offline Conniesaki

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 10:18:59 PM »
...

So folks you heard it here first, max' says the ZX14 is the detuned bike!  :rotflmao: :stirpot:

Lesstuned?

Undertuned??