ECU Reflash.

[maxtog]

   I'm not sure about that, Max. The oscilloscope readings I've seen has the VVT as an on / off system, with advance coming in around 32-3500 rpm.

I could very well be wrong on that.  But I read more than one article describing the system as truly variable.  Unfortunately, I didn't keep the data/links, so I can't refer back to them now.  I actually, initially thought the system was on/off and was surprised to learn it wasn't.  It seems to be very hard to find information.  Searching now, I will just offer this:

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/variable-valve-timing-technology-for-motorcycles

"The Kawasaki Concours mechanism is a phasing system[...] Depending on the side of the vanes that gets the oil, the sprocket and the cam are rotated clockwise or counterclockwise relative to one another, advancing or retarding the valve timing. The alteration is progressive, not discrete, which gives the advantage of continuous alteration as rpm rise and fall. Kawasaki’s goal here was to strengthen midrange torque, and it worked."

My so-named [by others, not me] "Mad Max" searching skills can find nothing to contradict that right now.  But I would certainly love to see any information that supports or contradicts it.  I will posit what you were seeing could be just some indicator that VVT has started, but not necessarily how much of it.... a lot like a simple WOT throttle switch could indicate that throttle is over a certain percent but not what the percent is after that (not the best example, but just something I thought of quickly).

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

 Let me just respond this way... there's tons of misinformation on the internet. I don't have all the answers either, in fact generally more questions than answers. But I've learned that the internet is full of mis-information, and the manufactures are as good at it as anyone else. Steve

[maxtog]

Let me just respond this way... there's tons of misinformation on the internet. I don't have all the answers either, in fact generally more questions than answers. But I've learned that the internet is full of mis-information, and the manufactures are as good at it as anyone else. Steve

Couldn't agree more.  Usually all we can hope to do is find different sources, cross reference, look at who those sources are, and try to make judgements on it all and throw in some face-validity checks.  This is why I was initially surprised by what I was getting on the operation of the VVT, because it went contrary to what I expected- I expected a bike system to be simple, and they typically lag way behind what is typical in car technology of the time.  Again, I hope someone else can find something more definitive and authoritative on how the Concours' VVT operates.  Meanwhile...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/2747759/Kawasaki-1400GTR-In-for-the-long-haul.html

"The Kawasaki's VVT system is developed from Mitsubishi's car engine design, and advances or retards the inlet camshaft through 24 degrees according to throttle position and revs, in order to produce maximum torque.[...]The VVT itself works extremely well, with none of the annoying power step that so irritates on the VFR"

And yet:

"Kawasaki’s GTR1400 – are based on hydraulic cam phasers. These allow the camshaft to rotate a few degrees in relation to its drive sprocket, either advancing or retarding the valve timing in the process. Oil is forced into chambers inside the phaser to move and lock the camshaft into its advanced or retarded position."

Sigh.

Kawasaki's old video doesn't help much:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZXepU7Sks  The concept can still be on/off or truly variable, just depends on how it is programmed.  I watched/read far too much about the GENERIC system at this point, and it is clear it can operate either way.  The computer knows exactly the position of the cam by sensor, and could absolutely discretely control and put the cam anywhere in the range it wants using the VVT oil control solenoid that is on the Concours.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

"Kawasaki’s GTR1400 – are based on hydraulic cam phasers. These allow the camshaft to rotate a few degrees in relation to its drive sprocket, either advancing or retarding the valve timing in the process. Oil is forced into chambers inside the phaser to move and lock the camshaft into its advanced or retarded position."[/i]

  Having disassembled a vvt, I can tell you this is incorrect - there is a locking pin when the vvt is at idle in the retarded position, but there isn't a locking pin at full advance. Steve

[maxtog]

Having disassembled a vvt, I can tell you this is incorrect - there is a locking pin when the vvt is at idle in the retarded position, but there isn't a locking pin at full advance. Steve

What you just said is consistent with videos I have seen of various similar systems.  One reason I highlighted it   I was wondering why it would "lock" into the most advanced position, and if that meant anything in the discussion.  Just goes to show about misinformation, again...

This would have made great separate thread.

[just gone]

The only document I've seen says it is "stepless", I took that to mean it was infinitly variable (in theory, but possibly is only as variable as the cam sensor output is variable).

I'm not sure if this came from a Gen I shop manual or perhaps a KDS operation manual, but it appears genuine Kawasaki documentation to me. (I'm easily fooled.)

[maxtog]

The only document I've seen says it is "stepless", I took that to mean it was infinitly variable (in theory, but possibly is only as variable as the cam sensor output is variable).

I'm not sure if this came from a Gen I shop manual or perhaps a KDS operation manual, but it appears genuine Kawasaki documentation to me. (I'm easily fooled.)

That is, indeed, from the factory service manual.  Good find, and it was right under my nose    And yes, it seems to pretty solidly support my original belief that the system is truly variable:

"... the variable valve timing mechanism steplessly varies the amount of valve overlap in accordance with engine speed and throttle position sensor data."

And the diagram clearly shows it moves the cam to a "target" position though feedback from the cam sensor.  All the wording supports complete variability, none of it being "on/off."  They even have examples with a "neutral" position- which is neither advanced fully nor retarded fully.

[B.D.F.]

Yes, as I understand the system, the VVT is infinitely adjustable, not binary (fully retarded or fully advanced). Cam advance varies with at least RPM but possibly also perceived engine load though that is speculation on my part. Just like the secondary throttle plates, it is not an 'On / Off' system but one of variable change.

What makes it a bit hard to fathom is that the valving looks like 'bang- bang' control (as a toaster- oven: the element is either On or Off but bouncing between the two creates an effective temperature band), which it is, but with the hysteresis built into hydraulic systems, it really translates to a step-less, variable system.

There is another system out there that does VVT from Suzuki and that is also very interesting: it is done by using 3D camshafts. Instead of a profile across the entire lobe of a camshaft lobe being the same, Suzuki uses a varying profile across the camshaft and then moves the camshaft along its own axis to alter not only the advance of the cam(s) but the actual cam profile regarding duration! A very interesting and effective approach. Compared with a C-14, the only choice is the timing of the cam profile start; the profile itself is ground into the camshaft and cannot be altered.

Brian

The only document I've seen says it is "stepless", I took that to mean it was infinitly variable (in theory, but possibly is only as variable as the cam sensor output is variable).

I'm not sure if this came from a Gen I shop manual or perhaps a KDS operation manual, but it appears genuine Kawasaki documentation to me. (I'm easily fooled.)

[Ivan_ipp]

Here you guys go....   



(Text copied from my post on COG....)


Folks,

I just did these tests today as it was a little slow this Friday afternoon.

Not even the magazines can give you these tests and a window to see this information.

The first chart is full camshaft advance vs. full camshaft retard... (the 2 extremes of the VVT actuator)

The second chart shows the same 2 runs with my programming added to contrast the two extremes... (my cam timing)

Obviously, proper cam timing is essential to peak performance, but having this variable makes the best of both worlds... especially when I can adjust the settings to make the best spread of the power at all rpms.     

I chose to use my tuned file for these tests because it shows the effects better at the extremes and also with the raised rev-limiter

Enjoy,



Ivan

[maxtog]

Here you guys go....     http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/vvt-variable-valve-timing-dyno-tests/

Remember, we who do not have logins can't see attachments on that other forum...  but I can copy/paste at least what you said:

"I just did these tests today as it was a little slow this Friday afternoon.  The first chart is full camshaft advance vs. full camshaft retard... (the 2 extremes of the VVT actuator).  The second chart shows the same 2 runs with my programming added to contrast the two extremes... (my cam timing).  Obviously, proper cam timing is essential to peak performance, but having this variable makes the best of both worlds... especially when I can adjust the settings to make the best spread of the power at all rpms.  I chose to use my tuned file for these tests because it shows the effects better at the extremes and also with the raised rev-limiter"

Interesting.   You said you are throwing a dyno with forcing the VVT into full retard and full advance.  This can be done by externally overriding the VVT oil pump.  That can [further] confirm variability if there is a third dyno chart that contrasts both, where the VVT is left to be computer controlled.  The part I don't understand is that little bit where you said "(my cam timing)."  That implies you have access to and are actively changing the VVT system with the ECU... but that is in direct conflict with saying "same 2 runs" (full advance and full retard).  Clarification needed- just a mistype or something?

[Ivan_ipp]

I have full control of the VVT on this bike in the ECU.

The full adv/retard in those tests was done through my ecu flash.

I'll move the charts into my above post when I come back from dinner. 

Ivan

[maxtog]

I have full control of the VVT on this bike in the ECU.  The full adv/retard in those tests was done through my ecu flash.

Ok, like.... wow!  I guess that puts several things to rest.  Brings up more questions, too.  But I am kinda worn out today

[Ivan_ipp]

Look up ......

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

 Nice work Ivan - seriously. I think most folks won't get what the test shows, but it's clear that the timing is variable, and that Kawasaki did a great job of getting the intake LC's on VVT map right.

Steve

[maxtog]

Nice work Ivan - seriously. I think most folks won't get what the test shows, but it's clear that the timing is variable, and that Kawasaki did a great job of getting the intake LC's on VVT map right.

Yeah.  I would even be a bit leery of messing with the VVT too much, since it has the potential of greatly affecting longevity in a quest for a little more gain here or there.  One thing I think this (and other threads) effectively show, is that gains in one area typically lead to sacrifices and risk in another.  Very "zen" and all

I tell you, one thing that would REALLY suck would be to switch to a new model bike and not have such offerings immediately available from dedicated people like you two and Guhl (there might be others, but those are the three I am most familiar with now), reversing some of the unnecessarily extreme emissions/sound/MPG stuff dialed into modern bikes.  I know it is a lot of work, and in many ways, almost an art form.

Thanks

Great, now I am all sad and crap about the discontinuation of the Concours

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Great, now I am all sad and crap about the discontinuation of the Concours

I know it's dc'ed in the euro market... do you know something I don't know about the US market? Steve

[maxtog]

I know it's dc'ed in the euro market... do you know something I don't know about the US market? Steve

Only what has been discussed in the other threads- that the bike is, indeed, discontinued in all the non-NA markets, they didn't come out with a new color (instead, using "last year's" EU color), had only a single color available, and then introduced the "H2 SX" as a so-called "sport tourer" in other markets and as a quasi "sport tourer" in our market.  To me, the writing is clearly on the wall.  I expect the 2018 is the last C14, but I have no actual proof of that, yet.   So my lamenting might be premature, but it seems pretty clear to me the days are now very numbered.  I apologize for making it look like it actually happened when it is actually just my gut feeling.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22828.0
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22980.0

[mikeyw64]

I've not ridden a flashed bike but that said I'm happy enough with the stock performance thank you


Does what it says on the tin

[smokin]

+1,till I received the MOUNTAIN RUNNER flash.Trust me the difference is unbelievable in terms of low down/mid range performance and increased fuel economy.Turns the engine into a torque monster IMHO.
Never say never.
I forgot to add what you guys pay for it in "GOOD OLD USA,YOU WOULD BE MAD NOT TO GET IT"
There are riders here in Australia who are biting at the bit to get the Mountain Runner flash,and for measly price you guys pay for it its a no brainer IMHO.

[Ivan_ipp]

I doubt it will be discontinued until there is a replacement or updated model.
If there are too many left in the warehouse, many times a Japanese manufacturer will skip a model year to use up existing stock.

The H2SX doesn't fit the place due to the price and physical size, riding position etc....

Most likely it will be updated at some point, hopefully with the 14R's engine and some new electronics.