Author Topic: A thread about nothing at all....  (Read 674057 times)

Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2760 on: August 22, 2017, 03:53:34 PM »
Well this thread seems to have gone from nothing to Power grids, while it's here I have a question.

Do those cheap Chinese made LED Christmas light strings that blink on and off 30 times per second in the USA only blink on and off in the UK 25 times per second?.

Yes, and I *HATE THEM* because my eyes are so sensitive I can see the flicker not just from peripheral vision, but even straight-on.  But the better made LED ones use a full bridge rectifier, so they flicker at 60 (or 50) Hz and that isn't really visible.  Thankfully I think they are all moving to that, because several years ago, I couldn't stand all these damn flickering lights everywhere and it seems better the last couple of years....  I even had to ask my Mom to turn off the tree so I wouldn't have a headache when I visited!  (I helped her get some sets of decent ones after that year).
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2761 on: August 22, 2017, 06:23:24 PM »
Well, as far as Christmas LED's, and the idea that they would use a single diode to chop the sine wave into a half or a sine wave with clipped corners at that..... kind of doubtful. The LEDs would not flicker, they would actually strobe and I do not thing anyone is actually doing that. Add to that the fact that a full bridge rectifier is burned into silicon so the price is about the same as a diode anyway.

But even that is not a fix or acceptable because there will still be a significant 'off' band on either side of the zero crossing where no current will flow and the LED's will go out. If we assume the sine wave is transformed to 3 volts, a reasonable expectation to drive LEDs with, the 'no current passing' band of a silicon diode (any  kind- this is controlled by the physics of the material, not man or human design) is ~.7 volts and it is on BOTH sides of the zero crossing, so you can quickly see that merely transforming and rectifying 115 VAC down to ~3 rectified (pulsed DC is what it is) power is still very unacceptable. A capacitor will help, and a resistor- capacitor - inductor would correct it but the better way would be to chop the AC into a much higher, square wave and then transform it, filter it with very small components and Viola! Perfect. And we have a name for those: It is called a power supply.  :rotflmao:  I do not have any of those LED Christmas lights and so have not seen the flicker but I would suggest finding out what they require for power, (to the LED strip, output power, not input power), cut whatever garbage they have in there to make them flicker.... er, I mean light, and buy a wall- wart that powers them up. A few bucks and all should be well. Again, I say this without seeing them; I do have some puck style LEDs inside my glass door cabinets in the kitchen and they use 46 volt DC power supply (he slaps his forehead with his hand). Ain't nobody gonna' find one of those, anywhere.

See what happens when we (and I mean we- me included) make everything about the price? We get it, all the way until it either does not work or does not work right.

It is also possible there are other, better brands of LED Christmas lights that do not do this but again, capitalism (and I am a loyal and firm (Easy Boys) capitalist), I just think it can and will run amok without other restraints.... just like these cheap lights). So maybe even the pretty inexpensive but not the dead- cheapest lights are also gone from the market.

Brian

;D...Well, I didn't really expect the count..that would be automatic for 50 cycles at 25 on and offs, but I did want to know if they flickered like the ones we get do.
It doesn't seem like it would be that expensive to put a few diodes and a capaciter in there to make a rectifier so they didn't noticeably flicker, but I guess the competition to save a few dimes per string of lights is just too much.

I think DSL is dying out over here, and for that I'm glad. It was faster than dial up but not as reliable. Frequent outages for me on rainy days. Cable or fiber optics seem the way to go now.
I guess satellite is still viable if you are remotely off the grid, but I've never tried it.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2762 on: August 22, 2017, 07:46:09 PM »
Well, as far as Christmas LED's, and the idea that they would use a single diode to chop the sine wave into a half or a sine wave with clipped corners at that..... kind of doubtful. The LEDs would not flicker, they would actually strobe

Flicker/strobe whatever they do, I can see it on some (mostly cheap/older) sets and not others (mostly quality/newer).  Perhaps the better ones are using a capacitor to smooth the voltage and reduce or eliminate the transitions.

Quote
But even that is not a fix or acceptable because there will still be a significant 'off' band on either side of the zero crossing where no current will flow and the LED's will go out.

But it would do it twice as fast.  When something strobes fast enough, the human eye can't tell.

Quote
And we have a name for those: It is called a power supply.  :rotflmao: 

If you examine the sets, they have a tiny plug with no room for a full/typical power supply (like the "wall warts").  I believe they are not reducing the voltage but using all the LED's in series to drop the voltage to the required level.  LED's are diodes, so they can be connected like that straight to the mains if enough are in series; they simply block current when the electrons flow the wrong way.  Insane, but possible.... and I really do think they did just that in some of those sets.  In that case, you would have LED's on less than half the time (roughly), blinking at 30 Hz.  Throw in a simple rectifier and it would be on twice as often and also at 60Hz.

Quote
It is also possible there are other, better brands of LED Christmas lights that do not do this but again, capitalism (and I am a loyal and firm (Easy Boys) capitalist), I just think it can and will run amok without other restraints.... just like these cheap lights). So maybe even the pretty inexpensive but not the dead- cheapest lights are also gone from the market.

I think one of the main problems was that it seems most people couldn't even tell they were flickering/strobing.  I would ask people that had those sets "how can you stand looking at those flickering all the time" and they seemed completely baffled... they couldn't tell!  My mom was one of those "I can't tell" people.

For the LED strips I use in the kitchen and cabinets and curios, etc, I use a "real" power supply... but also a PCM (Pulse Code Modulator) for dimming.  You can't really "dim" an LED, it is pretty much on or off.  The PCM actually varies the frequency/duration of the flashing to make it appear dimmer or brighter.  But [properly designed] it does it so fast that even at its most dim, I still don't notice any flicker.  Pretty cool stuff.
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Offline just gone

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2763 on: August 22, 2017, 08:37:52 PM »
But even that is not a fix or acceptable because there will still be a significant 'off' band on either side of the zero crossing where no current will flow and the LED's will go out.
Brian

I will need to re-exam the light strings in November, but it may be that they are actually already rectified and the flickering I'm seeing is the cut off in between the ON bands. They are definitely strobing which you can see when you take the end of the string (max' doesn't need to) and flip it back and forth like a rapidly moving arm on a metronome. You can then easily see the ONs and Offs which appear equal in size to me. I was thinking that since they are already diodes in series that they were just using one side to the cycle, but when you mention the "off" band that would make the LEDs off more than they're on if it wasn't already rectified. Hmmm.....

I wish they had just made the LEDs connected in parallel with a power supply......and max'has posted while I'm typing. Pretty much agree with what he said above. I'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't see the flickering when looking straight on at the LEDs.

I guess max' and I should be careful here or a moderator may move our posts over to the crazy and annoyed thread.  :o ;D

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2764 on: August 23, 2017, 08:20:30 AM »
Yes, peripheral vision is much more sensitive to 'movement' than central vision; the flickering is perceived as movement ( I guess it is, sort of),

I would hope that someone out there is selling Christmas LED strings that do NOT strobe. Again, unless the lower cost of the ones that do strobe have driven the more expensive ones off of the market. Hey, the cheapest ones do not strobe in the box, at the store, so they have the advantage..... unfortunately.

And you guys might be being a bit negative about the whole strobe thingy anyway, it can be a very useful and cool function:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQL9dpeloc

Maybe there is a message in that strobing (Easy Boys! I said stroBing)? Perhaps someone has embedded the meaning of life in those strings of lights? How about the secret and elusive formula that controls teh world's financial markets? The whereabouts of Emilia Earhart? The location of Jimmy Hoffa? The location of Blackbeard's buried treasure? The truth about KiPass, and how it does not actually do anything at all but is all part of the larger, nefarious Japanese plot to take over the world while we all fight over it? C'mon guys, go up on the roof and swing those strings around.... see what knowledge and wisdom lurks inside those strings.

PWM: the 'bang- bang' control that fixes all of the faults, failures and limitations of 'bang- bang' control.

As far as the crazy and annoyed thread, I think you may be OK but Max still has that 'when I wear my helmet in my house it confounds the cats' thing following him around. So he was already half- way to the crazy thread. Er, I mean the crazy and annoyed thread.  ;D

Brian

I will need to re-exam the light strings in November, but it may be that they are actually already rectified and the flickering I'm seeing is the cut off in between the ON bands. They are definitely strobing which you can see when you take the end of the string (max' doesn't need to) and flip it back and forth like a rapidly moving arm on a metronome. You can then easily see the ONs and Offs which appear equal in size to me. I was thinking that since they are already diodes in series that they were just using one side to the cycle, but when you mention the "off" band that would make the LEDs off more than they're on if it wasn't already rectified. Hmmm.....

I wish they had just made the LEDs connected in parallel with a power supply......and max'has posted while I'm typing. Pretty much agree with what he said above. I'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't see the flickering when looking straight on at the LEDs.

I guess max' and I should be careful here or a moderator may move our posts over to the crazy and annoyed thread.  :o ;D
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2765 on: August 23, 2017, 02:52:26 PM »
As far as the crazy and annoyed thread, I think you may be OK but Max still has that 'when I wear my helmet in my house it confounds the cats' thing following him around. So he was already half- way to the crazy thread. Er, I mean the crazy and annoyed thread.  ;D

At least I only have two cats, so I can't yet be called "that crazy cat man"
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2766 on: August 23, 2017, 03:03:39 PM »
Well first, I did not call you 'the crazy cat man'.

Second, I do not think there is a minimum number of cats you have to own to be called a crazy cat man.

Third, remember, I am 'pulling your tail' a bit so take it for what it is worth: nothing. All in good fun (for me anyway).

Fourth: nothing wrong with cats. I like 'em myself. I do not own any, and prefer dogs. but would not rule out owning cats. And I can usually 'make nice' with them when found in the semi- wild (someone else's house).

Funny story: up until very recently, a young woman living next to me had a boxer and a cat. Now it took a year 'cause the boxer is really, really timid but eventually it got so I could touch her (Easy Boys! it is a dog for cryin' out loud). She would come w/in about 10' from the front of my garage and watch me work on the bike with her 'stump' wagging at 100 MPH but no closer, and if I moved toward her, she gave ground to maintain that 10 feet. Anyway, finally, we are buds and every night she comes to my house, scratches on the door to be let in, visits, has two bones (I stock Milk Bones for [not my own] dogs), hangs out a while and then leaves. Now the dog's owner's cat is really the dog's cat, and wherever that dog is, the cat is w/in 10'.... except in my house. He comes to the door, clearly wants to come inside (where 'his' dog is) but cannot quite bring himself to step over the threshold. Funny to watch. It usually provided one of my three required 'yucks' per day.

Brian

At least I only have two cats, so I can't yet be called "that crazy cat man"
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2767 on: August 23, 2017, 03:05:29 PM »
Well first, I did not call you 'the crazy cat man'.

Second, I do not think there is a minimum number of cats you have to own to be called a crazy cat man.

Third, remember, I am 'pulling your tail' a bit so take it for what it is worth: nothing. All in good fun (for me anyway).

Actually, now that I think about it, I have cats, I am a man, and I am a bit crazy... maybe I could be....
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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2768 on: August 23, 2017, 03:11:29 PM »
I have three, and your both Crazy Cat Men.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2769 on: August 23, 2017, 03:23:38 PM »
My son and D-I-L have cats but make no mistake, they are his, especially the small one (Chloe). A while back they were staying with us while relocation, and went to the city they were moving to (400 miles from where I live but 3,000 miles from where they were living at the time) and left the cats with us. The cats were pretty cool with me and my wife and would hang around but were not interested in too much interaction (read: do not touch me). But on the third day I think, the small one, Chloe, got 'horny for humans' and jumped up in my lap, insisting I stop everything and cater to her. She actually walked up my chest and just 'let go'; if I did not catch her, she would have fallen to the floor. Still not close enough, she crawled into my neck and laid there for quite a while, eyes closed tight, singing and 'playing piano' (whatever you call it) in my shirt. She showed zero interest in my wife, only me (as I said, she is tight with my son only so apparently likes males).

Of course I tell him his cat is a wh...... er, a 'cat of ill repute' and will 'snuggle' with any human available after he is gone 5 minutes. :-)

But again, whatever floats one's boat regarding pets: dogs, cats, birds, snakes (I guess), whatever. I have a soft- spot for dogs, a big one, and get along with <almost> all of them, even the obnoxious ones.





Brian

Actually, now that I think about it, I have cats, I am a man, and I am a bit crazy... maybe I could be....
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2770 on: August 23, 2017, 03:40:13 PM »
jumped up in my lap, insisting I stop everything and cater to her.

Welcome to a cat owner's life. We are only allowed to live, to cater to their every whim, but only when they choose to allow us to be near them.
Brent Johnson 
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2771 on: August 23, 2017, 05:32:44 PM »
Yep, I am familiar with the species but I am not a cat owner. More of a dog person really. I do not own either at the moment though, so I have to have my 'pet live' vicariously through others. Mr. Elkhoof goes a LONG way toward making me new four- legged friends when the stop (on the local beach boardwalk) to smell him and try to get a hold of him :-)  Milk Bones are the usual substitutes but for the real hold- outs, I carry some Beggin' Strips (they have all seen the commercials and realize how much they want them).

:-)

Brian

Welcome to a cat owner's life. We are only allowed to live, to cater to their every whim, but only when they choose to allow us to be near them.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2772 on: August 23, 2017, 10:54:04 PM »
Second, I do not think there is a minimum number of cats you have to own to be called a crazy cat man.

Three. It's three. Two cats, fine ... after all, each one needs a buddy. Any more than that and you're crazy for having that many cats. And BTW I like cats. We have two.

Offline Rhino

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2773 on: August 24, 2017, 07:00:31 AM »
count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out!

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2774 on: August 24, 2017, 07:20:49 AM »
Makes sense to me!
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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2775 on: August 24, 2017, 09:06:47 AM »
Three. It's three. Two cats, fine ... after all, each one needs a buddy. Any more than that and you're crazy for having that many cats. And BTW I like cats. We have two.

Damn, I resemble that statement.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2776 on: August 24, 2017, 03:55:24 PM »
Damn, I resemble that statement.

I love cats a lot.  But two is definitely enough for me (and better than one).  The amount of cat hair everywhere is plenty, and my laziness factor is key.
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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2777 on: August 25, 2017, 10:54:17 AM »
count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out!

No cats but I love a Python reference. Bravo!

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2778 on: September 01, 2017, 11:08:58 AM »
The first escalator on the London Underground was installed at Earl's Court in 1911. A one-legged man, "Bumper" Harris, was employed to ride on it and demonstrate its safety. Unlike modern "comb" escalators, the original "shunt" mechanism ended with a diagonal so that the stairway finished sooner for the right foot than for the left.

Anyone not wishing to walk on the escalator was therefore asked to stand to the right to allow others to pass, leading to Britain's unique flouting of escalator etiquette which dictates in most countries that escalators tend to match the rules of the road.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2779 on: September 01, 2017, 12:43:47 PM »
Anyone not wishing to walk on the escalator was therefore asked to stand to the right to allow others to pass, leading to Britain's unique flouting of escalator etiquette which dictates in most countries that escalators tend to match the rules of the road.

And it does, at least here.  Slow on the right, fast/pass on the left.  But even though in the UK the road travel directions are backwards ( ;) ), you hold the same rules for which lane is passing?
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