Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: maxtog on August 23, 2015, 12:20:05 PM
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It is nothing new- you start to notice it getting harder and harder to turn the key to open the gas tank cap, eventually leading to bending the key. http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9179.30 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9179.30) I complained about this within the first year of buying my new 2011 (and I have seen others complaining too).
At first you think it is just the keyhole / keyway getting dry and decide to shoot some graphite in it. And that might actually help some (especially with getting the key in and out). http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10026.30 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10026.30)
But eventually it just gets worse no matter what you do. It no longer "springs back either". So you take a look at the latching mechanism and discover something is not right and spray some graphite into that too. And it seems to help... for a while. But then a few months go by and it is worse than ever. Then you take a CLOSER look at it again, and realize the whole thing is corroded to hell! The two latches should move freely and with little effort when you press on them with your fingers... but those days are long gone.
So unless you want to replace the cap with a new/different one, you finally need to do what I just did- take the latch apart and see what is going on in there. First thing is to open the cap and put some plastic wrap and then a towel over the tank. This is to prevent the gas from evaporating, to prevent anything from falling into the tank, and to prevent loss of parts. Then take a Philips screwdriver and remove the two screws on the bottom of the latch.
BE SLOW AND CAREFUL! The latch assembly won't explode or anything, but it can come apart and dump parts. But more importantly, there will be nothing left holding the rubbery part on the cap... and behind that are several tiny springs and valves and such (more on that later). Just try not to disturb that at all.
Continued on next posting...
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In my case, when I opened the latch mechanism, I was horrified. It was packed with white and black debris. I think the white being aluminum oxide and the black being some type of altered graphite. The metal was all pitted too. It could just be corrosion from the ethanol (one theory that has been prevalent). But another thought is that the latch plate seems to be made from steel. The multiple metals could also be causing an electrolysis reaction. (See first two pictures on this posting).
However it is happening, it needs fixing. First I dumped the parts (the latch cover, two latches, the spring, and two screws) into a small bucket with warm water and dishwashing soap. Used an old toothbrush to scrub out everything. The resulting water ended up completely black. Dried off the parts and then used a spinning wire brush on a Dremel tool to try and polish off the parts. This was only mildly successful. The metal pitting was pretty bad, and I didn't want to use heavier tools for fear of creating too much wear. It will have to do (see third picture).
At this point it could be reassembled and placed back on the bike, but I decided to perform the Fred Harmon "gascapmod" first http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/84241606 (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/84241606)
Continued on next posting
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Fred discovered that if he widened the notches in the latches, one could then remove the key from the cap lock while the cap was still open. Presumably the cap was designed intentionally with this built-in "safety" measure to prevent someone from riding off, forgetting to close the cap. The problem is that the design is annoying.
Mark off 4mm from the existing slots (see first photo on this posting). Then mount the latch in a vice and use a file to remove the material you marked, making the new part of the notch the same depth as the original. My file was too wide to use on the long side and too narrow on the short side. I used the short side to start the notch (see the second photo), and then finished it off using the file in a different direction. Thankfully the metal is fairly soft so although you will get a bit of a workout, your arm will not fall off. Took about 4 min of filing per latch. See the third photo for a comparison of the before (top) and after (bottom).
Continued on next posting
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If you performed the mod or not, you need to reassemble the latch (see the photo for an example WITH the mod). Normally I would coat the parts an a little graphite. The problem in this case is that with such severe corrosion, I felt that graphite would not offer any protection from the process continuing. So I decided to use a thin coat of white lithium grease instead. I covered all the surfaces.
Now for the tricky part- getting the spring back in place.... and depending on your skill and dexterity, this might take quite a few attempts (it certainly doesn't help matters having the parts slippery with grease, either). The way I did it was to place one of the latches in the track first. Then inserted the spring, then placed the other latch where it would normally live, but on top of the spring. Then I used a small, flat-bladed screwdriver the pull the spring back while pressing lightly on the non-seated latch (it make take two or three pulls back). Once the spring is in place, the assembly is fairly stable and you can place the cover back on. Of course, nothing holds that cover on until you use the screws to put it back on the cap.
And here is a continuation of my warning from a while ago. With the latch off the cap, I tried turning the key to see how freely it moved. It wasn't that great, so I decided to spray in some graphite around the core from the top and work it in. That didn't help. So I decided to remove the rubber cup from the bottom of the cap to see what I could do. Eeek. All the little springs fell out and so did a tear-drop looking piece of plastic (some type of valve and a round screen). At least I could see the lock core and sprayed graphite around that, which did help some. It is obvious where the springs go. And the screen was easy. But I could not figure out which way the teardrop valve goes- one side was flat and had a hole, the other had no hole but little pips. The factory manual DOES NOT have *any* information about the tank cap at all. I took a guess that the pips went toward the screen and put it all back together.
So far so good. I needed to get gas right after all this, anyway. It was nice to be able to easily open it again. And even nicer to not having my key being held hostage while filling :)
I will report back on the long-term results of the "operation", especially to see how effective using white lithium is. But although I know it is going to corrode again, it is now pretty easy to fix (and I won't let it get this bad again).
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Nice work! Especially modding it so you can remove the key.
I solved the problem by just getting one of the E-Bay gas caps.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-GAS-CAP-gt-G-for-ZX6R-10R-14-Z800-Z1000-Z750-ER6N-ER-6F-GTR1400-Kawasaki-/161479165531?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&var=&hash=item2598e8865b&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-GAS-CAP-gt-G-for-ZX6R-10R-14-Z800-Z1000-Z750-ER6N-ER-6F-GTR1400-Kawasaki-/161479165531?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&var=&hash=item2598e8865b&vxp=mtr)
Yeah, it cost $35, but it took me about ten minutes to replace, and will never have the problems with the key being difficult to move in the first place. I'm not too worried about someone stealing my gas; has anyone ever had gas stolen from their bike?
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Nice work!
Thanks
Especially modding it so you can remove the key.
That mod is 100% Fred Harmon's discovery. But I am happy to say it works perfectly and pass it on to other fellow Concoursians.
I solved the problem by just getting one of the E-Bay gas caps. Yeah, it cost $35, but it took me about ten minutes to replace, and will never have the problems with the key being difficult to move in the first place. I'm not too worried about someone stealing my gas; has anyone ever had gas stolen from their bike?
I like the idea of a lock not because I am worried about someone stealing a few gallons of gas, but to prevent vandals from putting something in the gas (salt, sugar, water, whatever) which can cause MAJOR issues. Plus, the venting control system is important, so I am somewhat less trusting of cheap caps. Doesn't mean those won't work, or that the stock one can't fail, but there is a higher chance of something going wrong.
It is nice having choices!
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Thanks for posting that, Max.
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That looks like salt water corrosion. Is this happening more to coasties than flatlanders?
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That looks like salt water corrosion. Is this happening more to coasties than flatlanders?
I am fairly far from it, though- 6 miles from the bay and 13 miles from the ocean. Plus, the tank is supposed to be fairly air-proof (it allows venting, of course, but only a tiny amount of air goes through it). I suppose it can't help the situation, but I think there is much more significance with the ethanol + electrolysis hypothesis. Of course, one would then surmise that ALL C14 latches would be corroding the same- I doubt the gas here is all that different from anywhere else. I suppose I could have caused it to accelerate by spraying graphite into the latches twice. But I have never seen graphite contribute to such a mess... and it is very inert. It is a mystery.
I just hope I didn't make a mistake by using lithium grease this time. But if it was [a mistake], it won't be too difficult to reverse later.
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That looks like salt water corrosion. Is this happening more to coasties than flatlanders?
I wondered the same thing. When I replaced my cap, I didn't disassemble it, but just eye-balling it I didn't see nearly the corrosion that maxtog's had.
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I think there is much more significance with the ethanol + electrolysis hypothesis.
Sounds like a job for sailor_chic.
Say girl, we need to start buying zincs (or mags) for our tanks? (ya know, anodes 'n' such)
All in all a very good writeup max'. At the risk of sounding like one of the doom n gloomies I'm not sure about using lithium grease, or graphite
for that matter..I'd probably just use 2 stroke oil. Just seeing yours made me want to go out into the garage and check mine out, but it's laid up at the dealer.
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That is some pretty heavy corrosion.
Besides the outside of the fuel cap that you see, there are another million parts or so internal (Boys!) to that assembly and I have to imagine that they do not look so good either (which reminds me of a Mexican donkey joke but no time for that now....). Just a thought but a whole new fuel cap is not that expensive and might be worth considering....
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Kirbyputoff.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/BDF08012008/media/Kirbyputoff.jpg.html)
Even Kirby is amazed by all the little parts inside the fuel cap. Most of them are there to provide a seal as well as both positive and negative pressure vents. But altogether, it is one complex trinket considering a few years ago they were stamped steel with a rubber gasket.
Brian
It is nothing new- you start to notice it getting harder and harder to turn the key to open the gas tank cap, eventually leading to bending the key. http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9179.30 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=9179.30) I complained about this within the first year of buying my new 2011 (and I have seen others complaining too).
At first you think it is just the keyhole / keyway getting dry and decide to shoot some graphite in it. And that might actually help some (especially with getting the key in and out). http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10026.30 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10026.30)
<snip>
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Nice work! Especially modding it so you can remove the key.
I solved the problem by just getting one of the E-Bay gas caps.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-GAS-CAP-gt-G-for-ZX6R-10R-14-Z800-Z1000-Z750-ER6N-ER-6F-GTR1400-Kawasaki-/161479165531?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&var=&hash=item2598e8865b&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-GAS-CAP-gt-G-for-ZX6R-10R-14-Z800-Z1000-Z750-ER6N-ER-6F-GTR1400-Kawasaki-/161479165531?fits=Model%3AConcours+14&var=&hash=item2598e8865b&vxp=mtr)
Yeah, it cost $35, but it took me about ten minutes to replace, and will never have the problems with the key being difficult to move in the first place. I'm not too worried about someone stealing my gas; has anyone ever had gas stolen from their bike?
that's weird, I can unlock my cap, and open it... and remove the key... benn doing it for nigh on 8 years now.,......
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that's weird, I can unlock my cap, and open it... and remove the key... benn doing it for nigh on 8 years now.,......
Well, it is not "supposed" to work that way with the stock cap. So your brokenness has been a feature! :)
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Besides the outside of the fuel cap that you see, there are another million parts or so internal to that assembly
You are not kidding. I couldn't believe how complex just a gas tank cap has become over the years. And I don't know how they expect people to put them back together when it is not covered at all in the repair manual.
and I have to imagine that they do not look so good either
The little springs were all white too. But most of the rest of the stuff is plastic and rubber- that all looks OK.
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The springs being white indicates internal corrosion also. Again, not to spend any one else's money but I replaced my fuel cap ass'y and I think the entire OEM fuel cap is less than $100. The real problem is going to be if / when it fails to vent properly and you will end up with a fuel tank that looks like the Hulk gave it a squeeze. With new, F.I. bikes, the pump will continue to remove fuel LONG after a carburated system would have failed.... and when the vent does not work, the pressure differential (between the inside (low) and the outside (high)) is more than enough to crush the fuel tank. The new fuel cap is cheap compared to the cost of the new fuel cap.... and the new fuel tank.
https://www.google.com/search?q=crushed+motorcycle+fuel+tank&biw=1920&bih=1019&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI-sOkjenAxwIVxXE-Ch00VwpW#imgrc=5uVAV42FaHdCQM%3A (https://www.google.com/search?q=crushed+motorcycle+fuel+tank&biw=1920&bih=1019&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI-sOkjenAxwIVxXE-Ch00VwpW#imgrc=5uVAV42FaHdCQM%3A)
I normally do not subscribe to the 'sky is falling' of the day schtick but this one can and <may> come around to bite a person. Although Japanese bikes are far less likely than their European brethren.... :-)
Brian
You are not kidding. I couldn't believe how complex just a gas tank cap has become over the years. And I don't know how they expect people to put them back together when it is not covered at all in the repair manual.
The little springs were all white too. But most of the rest of the stuff is plastic and rubber- that all looks OK.
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that's weird, I can unlock my cap, and open it... and remove the key... benn doing it for nigh on 8 years now.,......
Mine is the same way. I unlock the cap and pull the key out while I fill 'er up. It won't lock without the key of course, not without the mod.
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The real problem is going to be if / when it fails to vent properly
I was wondering that yesterday- is there some way to test that the vents are working properly? I realize you are saying it could fail at any time without notice... but after servicing something it is a good idea to make sure things are working properly. Again, it is something one would expect to see in a service manual, but the manual is 100% silent about the gas tank cap.
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Sounds like a job for sailor_chic.
Say girl, we need to start buying zincs (or mags) for our tanks? (ya know, anodes 'n' such)
All in all a very good writeup max'. At the risk of sounding like one of the doom n gloomies I'm not sure about using lithium grease, or graphite
for that matter..I'd probably just use 2 stroke oil. Just seeing yours made me want to go out into the garage and check mine out, but it's laid up at the dealer.
Absolutely! Time for some cathodic protection. So if this is an electrolysis issue, which I doubt, what about adding a 3rd type of metal (brass) to the latch. I have always been told that 3 dissimilar metals will stop this process. IMO, I think that this is simple corrosion on some low grade cast aluminum, and is caused by moisture. So how about using a gas additive and keep the tanks full all the time.
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I will report back on the long-term results of the "operation", especially to see how effective using white lithium is. But although I know it is going to corrode again, it is now pretty easy to fix (and I won't let it get this bad again).
Not long-term yet, but so far, so good. I have filled the tank twice since. Both times it was easy as butter (why is butter easy?) Heard the cap squealing, so I know I didn't screw up the escape vent. And the tank hasn't crushed, so I know I didn't screw up the intake vent.
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both times it was easy as butter (why is butter easy?) Heard the cap squealing, so I know I didn't screw up the escape vent. And the tank hasn't crushed, so I know I didn't screw up the intake vent.
heh HEH He said butter and squealing.
Yeah, screwing up the escape vent isn't for everyone.
....same goes for the intake vent, but the latter is one of the more popular options.
..sorry folks, but someone just had to show why all those "easy boys" are justified, and I'm just the guy for the job. Thanks max' for the assist.
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;D
And allow me to add: it is much less of a problem to plug up the exhaust vent for several reasons, usually internal pressure will overcome the vent's ability to stay closed, and there are other ports that will provide the venting process as well long before it becomes catastrophic (such as the entire spring loaded fuel cap sealing plate will simply lift- sure it will stink for a bit but it relieves the pressure).
On the other hand, plugging in the intake vent is often catastrophic because that often results in an entire vessel failure, always of course, depending on how long that vent is plugged.
But on a serious note, the most common method by far of fuel tank failure due to vent failure is collapse (the tank caves in). The reason is simple physics; on a fuel injected vehicle, the fuel pump can get quite close to a full vacuum inside the tank which makes for a 14+ PSI differential. It is not possible to build up 14 PSI inside the tank given nothing but gasoline expansion unless some ridiculous event happened such as you fueled the bike in Dead Horse, AK, at -60F, immediately put the bike in a plane and flew it to Death Vally, CA, while it was 125F..... and even them I do not think gasoline has the ability to form that much vapor pressure. But of course I could be wrong and so we better just wait for someone to do this and we will have actual results. ::)
Brian
heh HEH He said butter and squealing.
Yeah, screwing up the escape vent isn't for everyone.
....same goes for the intake vent, but the latter is one of the more popular options.
..sorry folks, but someone just had to show why all those "easy boys" are justified, and I'm just the guy for the job. Thanks max' for the assist.
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I usually end up filling the bike 2-3 times a week before storing it for the next days ride. I usually fill it about half way up the fill neck which submerges most of the latch mechanism in gas. I think that this reduces corrosion or oxidation, but who knows.
I don't think that graphite is the best thing to use to lubricate the mechanism as it will eventually wash into the gas tank. Marvel Mystery Oil or any light weight oil would be a better solution. As I said before I think that if you keep the tank above the bottom of the neck that there will be less corrosion or oxidation.
These are just guesses but after 30k on this C14 and 26k on the last c14 I have had little to no problems with the Latch mechanisms.
Nice write up Max!!
Fred
Wa2gzw
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Add me to the list of folks that have had a gas cap become almost inoperable. Read through this thread and thought I'd give cleaning/lubing it a shot. The pitting wasn't nearly what I thought I'd find, but there was lots of grey "dust". Cleaned everything with brake fluid and then lubed it with the lock de-icer lubricant I bought a few weeks ago. Didn't seem to make much difference in its operation. Sprayed everything down with lithium grease at this point and the latches moved MUCH more freely.
Reassembling: everything WILL fly in every possible direction when trying to get it back together. Pay close attention to how everything comes apart. It wasn't hugely difficult, but it likely would have been if I wasn't prepared for it to happen. Lock works much more easily now, although not quite brand spanky new. We'll see how long this holds up. New assemblies are a little over $100 on RMATV.com. I haven't shopped it elsewhere yet.
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Cleaned it with brake fluid?
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Cleaned it with brake fluid?
I think he meant brake cleaner :)
My mechanic friend loves that stuff and uses it a lot.
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I like it as well.
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I think he meant brake cleaner :)
My mechanic friend loves that stuff and uses it a lot.
Yep. Brake cleaner.
Brain fart...
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Think ill be tackling this on Sunday. My tank vent has been screaming at me on warm days for about a year now. Time to shut the bitch up. ;D
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Not long-term yet, but so far, so good. I have filled the tank twice since. Both times it was easy as butter (why is butter easy?) Heard the cap squealing, so I know I didn't screw up the escape vent. And the tank hasn't crushed, so I know I didn't screw up the intake vent.
OK, now I am concerned. Twice now I have had the experience of going to fill it with gas and having a near "explosion" of pressure come out of the tank. I am not sure what causes so much pressure buildup, nor why it wasn't released by the cap. Worse, it is unpredictable as to if and when it will happen. I didn't want to post anything until I was sure it wasn't a one-time fluke. Also not sure what kind of damage, if any, this might cause.
This had never happened before I had to re-assemble the cap. So this could be an indication that I did, indeed, mess up the reassembly of the little valve stuff in the gas cap. My issue is that the factory manual has no information or diagram as to how it is supposed to be assembled. Does anyone know how I can get access to such information? I would ask if some daring person is able to get photos of everything in-situ, but I am afraid he might end up in a similar predicament :(
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This help... http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/gascapmod (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/gascapmod) ?
But it sounds (pun intended) like a vent is clogged. I've never had that happen to my gas cap.
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This help... http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/gascapmod (http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/gascapmod) ?
Unfortunately, no. That is about the latch. I need info on the mess that is above it. I am quite sure my latch procedures were all fine (still turns great and love the key pull-out mod). It was when I went in, snooping around under the black rubber area that I believe things went wrong (and also why I cautioned people about it too).
But it sounds (pun intended) like a vent is clogged. I've never had that happen to my gas cap.
Although it is possible, that would make for a remarkable coincidence to my having to reassemble the cap (4.5 years no problems, mess with cap and then immediately have random pressure issues). :(
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Although it is possible, that would make for a remarkable coincidence to my having to reassemble the cap (4.5 years no problems, mess with cap and then immediately have random pressure issues). :(
No problems before you messed with it... Problems after. Hmmmm
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Twice now I have had the experience of going to fill it with gas and having a near "explosion" of pressure come out of the tank. I am not sure what causes so much pressure buildup, nor why it wasn't released by the cap.
I've only refueled my 2015 once, and that happened to me. Maybe not 'explosion' bad, but way more than normal IMO. Now, all 2015 bikes have CA emissions now, and maybe that's the way they work (unlikely a brand new bike off the truck has such an issue, but always possible). Positive pressure shouldn't be an issue on a CA bike since fumes are routed thru the charcoal canister (that's what it's for). It'd be nice to see a diagram of how exactly the EVAP system works on these bikes. Anyway, I'll have to determine if what I have is positive or negative (vacuum) pressure, since both 'swishhhh' when tank is opened... but are different problems. Wasn't expecting that, so didn't notice which one. Vacuum can collapse a tank. But the good news is positive pressure should force the gas cap spring open before causing damage to the tank (that's what it's for too). Let us know if you find the culprit. Good luck.
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One thread talked about a pinched vent hose.
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Anyway, I'll have to determine if what I have is positive or negative (vacuum) pressure, since both 'swishhhh' when tank is opened... but are different problems.
No question which direction in my case, because it was way more than a swish/hiss. It energetically spewed out gases forward, toward the dash (that I could even see), after the cap flew open when I turned the key. "Explosion" might not be the best word, but both events were orders of magnitude more pressurethan I have experienced on any motorcycle (or any vehicle for that matter).
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Buy a new cap and have done with it, Max. 51049-0039 105.00 at Ron Ayers or take it in to the dealer or buy an aftermarket cap for about 1/2 or less.
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Buy a new cap and have done with it, Max. 51049-0039 105.00 at Ron Ayers
I will if I have to, but it is just so annoying that it is probably just one little part not in there right and there is no info anywhere. I hate spending money for no good reason.
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He says as the bike blows up in front of his face...
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My gas cap use to squeal like crazy when the weather got hot. At times, I could barely open up the gas cap with all the suction it created. I took my overly complex gas cap apart and removed a little spring that pressed a plastic valve against air relief valve. I think it's there to prevent gas from coming out if the bike is tipped over, but I'm not sure. Anyways, venting has worked perfectly since, no squealing or excessive suction when opening up the cap. I figured, if the bike crashes or tips over, a small amount of gas on the pavement is going to be the least of my worries. Besides, there's a tip-over sensor that kills the engine, so fire is very unlikely. I got the idea from a forum; I wish I could find it...
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FWIW - I've got SSR keyless gas caps on both the C-14 and my ZRX and have never had a venting problem
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I will report back on the long-term results of the "operation", especially to see how effective using white lithium is. But although I know it is going to corrode again, it is now pretty easy to fix (and I won't let it get this bad again).
One year followup/update....
I have only had a few other times it energetically "poofed" out air when going to fill it, so I haven't taken action on that issue. But is already starting to corrode significantly again, and getting harder to open. :( Freaking ethanol.
MOB recommends coating parts with lithium grease. As you know, this is what I did the last time I took it apart and put it back together. It helps, but doesn't seem to last very long. I might be doomed to this being an annual "take apart, clean, and lube" type thing.
Rick recommends coating parts with aviation lube ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php) )
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I was getting the occasional bit of corrosion around the key hole of the gas hole till I slopped on a bunch of Lock Ease. I worked the key in the lock and got the liquid spread around pretty well. After it dried it left a film and it seems that this film has prevented any more corrosion from forming. Plus the lock is MUCH easier to turn now.
YMMV
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I was getting the occasional bit of corrosion around the key hole of the gas hole till I slopped on a bunch of Lock Ease. I worked the key in the lock and got the liquid spread around pretty well. After it dried it left a film and it seems that this film has prevented any more corrosion from forming. Plus the lock is MUCH easier to turn now.
YMMV
Did you disassemble the latch assembly at all before applying the Lock Ease? It seems that the corrosion also gets inside the assembly, along with the exterior and springs.
I would think maxtog's lithium grease attempted to do the same thing -- put a film on the exposed aluminum inside the assembly. Doesn't seem to work for the long haul, though I would think it's better than nothing.
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Did you disassemble the latch assembly at all before applying the Lock Ease? It seems that the corrosion also gets inside the assembly, along with the exterior and springs.
I would think maxtog's lithium grease attempted to do the same thing -- put a film on the exposed aluminum inside the assembly. Doesn't seem to work for the long haul, though I would think it's better than nothing.
I wanted to try this out without taking anything apart first. It seems to have worked for me.
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I just work over the latch mechanism with WD-40 when it starts to get fussy.
Take it as another bit of maintenance. ::)
Happened in AZ where relative humidity was low and it does it in the swamp of N FL.
I have actually opened the cap on trips and seen layers of corrosion ready to come off.
Grab a paper towel or sacrifice a micro fiber, cover the tank opening, and start busting that :censored: off with a gloved hand.
Tried to keep a chunk of it to see if it broke down in gasoline but lost it.
If any of that mess has fallen into the tank there have been no issues @ 103,000 miles. 2009 8)
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Well, it has been almost exactly two years since I started this thread with the last round of aggressive cleaning due to near failure of the latch and lock. The mechanism has been getting worse the last few months and the last fillup, I almost couldn't get the cap open at all.
Today I took out the latch and it was cleaner than before, no black stuff (which I now think was the graphite), but lots of white powder again (see photo). I hadn't added ANY type of additional lube the last two years. I used a Dremel with wire brush to remove it from all surfaces. This time, I decided to try a different lubricant, a thin amount of molybdenum disulfide grease, it is the only other thing I have left to try. I applied not only to the wear surfaces, but pretty much all over.
The lock mechanism was just as bad, but I wasn't in the mood to remove it and deal with the hundreds of parts falling everywhere, so I shot some spray graphite into it for now. Since the lock is still not really clean, it is still a bit stiff (and doesn't spring back), but a lot better than before.
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looks like salt corrosion
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looks like salt corrosion
It does, but I don't think there is salt in my gas tank!
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I'd replace it.
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The bike?
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That is the worst case of corrosion I think I have ever seen on a motorcycle. Seriously. And I cannot imagine why that is happening either. ?? ?? ??
Yep, I would replace that ass'y; by the time you get the corrosion off, I believe the parts will have lost all sizing and toleranceing.
Just curious but is the bike subject to a lot of condensation? I mean do you cover it, for example, and find it wet underneath the covering often?
Are you very close to the ocean?
Whatever is going on there is extreme at the very least.
Brian
Well, it has been almost exactly two years since I started this thread with the last round of aggressive cleaning due to near failure of the latch and lock. The mechanism has been getting worse the last few months and the last fillup, I almost couldn't get the cap open at all.
Today I took out the latch and it was cleaner than before, no black stuff (which I now think was the graphite), but lots of white powder again (see photo). I hadn't added ANY type of additional lube the last two years. I used a Dremel with wire brush to remove it from all surfaces. This time, I decided to try a different lubricant, a thin amount of molybdenum disulfide grease, it is the only other thing I have left to try. I applied not only to the wear surfaces, but pretty much all over.
The lock mechanism was just as bad, but I wasn't in the mood to remove it and deal with the hundreds of parts falling everywhere, so I shot some spray graphite into it for now. Since the lock is still not really clean, it is still a bit stiff (and doesn't spring back), but a lot better than before.
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The bike?
The gas tank cap and latching mechanism or whatever is corroded.
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That is the worst case of corrosion I think I have ever seen on a motorcycle. Seriously. And I cannot imagine why that is happening either. ?? ?? ??
It is pretty crazy. I am not alone, others have reported the same thing, but it doesn't seem to be common, either.
Yep, I would replace that ass'y; by the time you get the corrosion off, I believe the parts will have lost all sizing and toleranceing.
The metal is actually eaten away and pitted. I do plan to replace it at some point. I suppose I have to research which parts are available... I would have to at least retain the cylinder for the lock.
Just curious but is the bike subject to a lot of condensation? I mean do you cover it, for example, and find it wet underneath the covering often?
This is not a low humidity area, it is kept covered always, in a tent-like structure with vents. I don't find it wet, though.
Are you very close to the ocean?
Yes and no. 10 miles from the ocean and 7 from the bay. I still think it is some type of electrolysis due to dissimilar metal in the presence of humidity, though. Stupid Ethanol gas attracts water.
Whatever is going on there is extreme at the very least.
Agreed.
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Mine was doing the same thing, so I replaced it. Once it starts, there's no stopping it. I tried to catch it early and used all kinds of lubricant, but the corrosion got worse every day. I've owned plenty of these bikes, and sometimes it just happens.
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I am skeptical regarding any coverings of any vehicle, no matter how well vented. That plus the fact that the part of the bike that is corroding into next week being at the top of the bike makes me suspect the cover.
This is nothing more than a passing thought, no observation and certainly no recommendation.
Brian
<snip>
This is not a low humidity area, it is kept covered always, in a tent-like structure with vents. I don't find it wet, though.
<snip>
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Well, it has been almost exactly two years since I started this thread with the last round of aggressive cleaning due to near failure of the latch and lock. The mechanism has been getting worse the last few months and the last fillup, I almost couldn't get the cap open at all.
Today I took out the latch and it was cleaner than before, no black stuff (which I now think was the graphite), but lots of white powder again (see photo). I hadn't added ANY type of additional lube the last two years. I used a Dremel with wire brush to remove it from all surfaces. This time, I decided to try a different lubricant, a thin amount of molybdenum disulfide grease, it is the only other thing I have left to try. I applied not only to the wear surfaces, but pretty much all over.
Well, here I am again, almost couldn't open it at the gas station. Took it apart and cleaned it. Molybdenum disulfide wasn't any better than anything else, so I went back to white lithium. Until next time...
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Living near the ocean, eh?
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How thick is powder coating, and could that work on these parts???
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How thick is powder coating, and could that work on these parts???
I have no idea. I would think it might cause issues with operation, though.
I wish I could just order a replacement latch part. I would order a whole thing, but I am worried about the lock and reassembly of all the tiny parts which might not come with instructions (and there is NO diagram or other info in the factory manual).
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I have no idea. I would think it might cause issues with operation, though.
I wish I could just order a replacement latch part. I would order a whole thing, but I am worried about the lock and reassembly of all the tiny parts which might not come with instructions (and there is NO diagram or other info in the factory manual).
I lost my plating contact, but I would disassemble it, or buy one off ebay, and disassemble that one, and have all the parts plated, or anodized, based on the material ( zinc, or copper flash and chrome for ferrous parts, and anodized for aluminum ones).. I was going to hook this up a couple years ago, but dropped the ball on it...
plating is just a couple microns thick, and would not impede function, powdercoating is pretty variable in thickness, (1.5 to 3 mil th'k), and may not work well on the wear edges, nor be friendly after fuel in long term, due to the polymer in the coatings.. maybe a ceramic coating, but then, as it's applied via a fogged electrostatic powder process, before being heated, it's pretty wide on thickness variations..
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I lost my plating contact, but I would disassemble it, or buy one off ebay, and disassemble that one, and have all the parts plated, or anodized, based on the material
Not a bad idea. Would need a spare.... unfortunately, nothing on Ebay. I suppose I could buy a cheapy Ebay "twist" kind to use during the operation so I won't be stranded. Ug. I wish someone just offered the latch mechanism pre-done for sale somewhere. BTW- I think it is zinc, but don't know for sure. Mine is horribly pitted now from the repeated corrosion.
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Not a bad idea. Would need a spare.... unfortunately, nothing on Ebay. I suppose I could buy a cheapy Ebay "twist" kind to use during the operation so I won't be stranded. Ug. I wish someone just offered the latch mechanism pre-done for sale somewhere. BTW- I think it is zinc, but don't know for sure. Mine is horribly pitted now from the repeated corrosion.
yeah, i believe it's a high zincro aluminum casting,(we know it as really crappy pot metal...) and thus a real p.i.t.a. for plating, evident by your original pictures of the horrible corrosion salts present wayyyy back..
having said this, I promise, I WILL get in contact with my local platers, and will supply them with pieces and parts, after I buy a twist on cap, and after all that, will offer a price and trade in option for a core to be sent, and a plated version sent simultaniously, during the process... this will allow users to dump their old tank and rid it of moisture laden fuels during the turn time, which works perfectly in the progression..
I'll post up when I get my cost and swap down shortly.
in the meantime, go back to the lithium greas thing, it's what i've used all along, and seems to be the best option, I use a spray lithium and have since I got the bike in '07, and never saw anything as bad as yours was..
hang tough, I'll p/m ya when i have the system down.
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in the meantime, go back to the lithium grease thing, it's what i've used all along, and seems to be the best option, I use a spray lithium and have since I got the bike in '07, and never saw anything as bad as yours was..
I have the spray on, but I used some paste, thinly applied. Each time I have recleaned it, it has never been as bad as the first time. That was truly horrible.
hang tough, I'll p/m ya when i have the system down.
:)
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Gas cap on the Indian is screw on...nothing to corrode.
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Gas cap on the Indian is screw on...nothing to corrode.
But everything to lose [lose/drop/drip/contaminate] :)
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But everything to lose [lose/drop/drip/contaminate] :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-OfrkwuhA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-OfrkwuhA) ::)
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I would say that there's quite a few bikes out there with removable fuel caps that don't have those issues such as losing, dropping, dripping or contamination. We, on the other hand, deal with corrosion and keys breaking off in the cap. Now, I've never had either of those issues but I don't live near the ocean or manhandle the stove knob in the gas cap. I also don't worry about that idiotic spring in the ignition switch.
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I would say that there's quite a few bikes out there with removable fuel caps that don't have those issues such as losing, dropping, dripping or contamination. We, on the other hand, deal with corrosion and keys breaking off in the cap. Now, I've never had either of those issues but I don't live near the ocean or manhandle the stove knob in the gas cap. I also don't worry about that idiotic spring in the ignition switch.
I'm beginning to think with gas being as relatively cheap as it is (YMMV), there's no real solid reason to have a locking gas cap anyway. Unless, of course, you're being stalked and someone wants to dump a pound of sugar in your tank.... :-\
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I'm beginning to think with gas being as relatively cheap as it is (YMMV), there's no real solid reason to have a locking gas cap anyway. Unless, of course, you're being stalked and someone wants to dump a pound of sugar in your tank.... :-\
it surely ain't about gas theft... as a hose, and additional can, along with the time it takes, to harvest free fuel, just ain't probable..
it's all about the idiot children, that are amused by stupid things like pouring stuff into peoples tanks...
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Thanks for the instructions and the pictures. I just purchased a 2009 with a sticking gas cap. Purchased the e z lube and disassembled cleaned, lubed, cussed my fat fingers, and reassembled. Everything moves smoothly and like the OP I hope the little teardrop looking thing goes with the pips in toward the screen looking thing. (did not want to disassemble the thing that far, but fat fingers remember) So glad I used the search here first. Saran wrap saved the day when everything exploded. Will let you know how it goes.
Toon
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Thanks for the instructions and the pictures.
:)
like the OP I hope the little teardrop looking thing goes with the pips in toward the screen looking thing.
Hopefully, one day, someone will be able to remove it all without it "exploding" and can verify which way the teardrop valve is supposed to be inserted. So far, no takers.
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So a little more than a month. Still smoothly opening and no crushed tank. Will update from time to time.
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Just did this! thanks Maxtog for the info. Used some very fine sandpaper and brake cleaner to get the corrosion off (didn't work). I used silicone lubricant I had laying around in it. It doesn't spring back but the key turns much more smoothly now. Paid attention to not let the rubber bit come off. Was able to put the two bits and the spring together without any tools, with a little bit of convincing. If it gets worse again, I may consider buying a new one. It's $88 on partzilla. I wonder how you move the lock assembly from one to the other so you can use your key?
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Actually, the way I did it, pretty sure if you just turn the key all the way so the thingies are all the way in, and you spray lubricant in it, it'll have the same effect as taking it apart and cleaning it.
UPDATE: I went to check the lock a couple hours after doing this process and found that it was already worse. Decided to give white lithium grease spray a shot. Instead of taking it apart, I opened the gas cap, turned the key all the way so the triangular bits retract, and sprayed into the gap between the triangular bits and the metal plate that the screws go into. Smooth as butter and the spring works now, it actually wants to close itself.
If it gets worse again, next step is going to be ordering some EZ turn and trying that inside the lock to see how effective it is. I wouldn't mind spraying white lithium grease every 6 months in there if it's going to keep it working.
Wonder what kind of an effect leaving the bits in a baking soda/water mix would do. It would remove some corrosion but I'm afraid it'll also remove whatever plating it has on that's preventing the corrosion from getting worse
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Actually, the way I did it, pretty sure if you just turn the key all the way so the thingies are all the way in, and you spray lubricant in it, it'll have the same effect as taking it apart and cleaning it.
It work for now, since you already removed what was in there. But for those reading, here will be so much corrosion build-up, the only way to get rid of it is physical removal of it from everywhere inside the latch mechanism. It is shocking how much it can hold inside there. But you can shoot some spray lithium in there without taking it apart, if it was relatively clean to start with.
UPDATE: I went to check the lock a couple hours after doing this process and found that it was already worse.
Yep. Silicone spray is pretty useless, but just about anything you put in there will help in the short term. Then the next day, it is noticeably worse, and it gets worse over time. Even if it is done "right" (with a heavier lubricant) it will still fade, just over a longer period.
Decided to give white lithium grease spray a shot. Instead of taking it apart, I opened the gas cap, turned the key all the way so the triangular bits retract, and sprayed into the gap between the triangular bits and the metal plate that the screws go into. Smooth as butter and the spring works now, it actually wants to close itself.
And that will work a longer while, maybe even several months if your corrosion rate isn't too bad. But then it will cake up with the corrosion inside the mechanism and get bad again. You will see :)
Wonder what kind of an effect leaving the bits in a baking soda/water mix would do.
I am guessing not much. Tried that, too, at one point.
It would remove some corrosion but I'm afraid it'll also remove whatever plating it has on that's preventing the corrosion from getting worse
I am not sure there is/was any plating at all. But if there was, that would help explain my situation (that it was fine for several years and then wham, and gets worse with each cleaning). Year after year the cleanings and lubes are less and less effective each time. I would order the new cap if only there were instructions somewhere on how it is all assembled and how to move the lock cylinder.
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When the forum was moved, all my hundreds of photos I uploaded are gone on the threads!
Here are some I posted on this thread, now out of context (since we are also not allowed to edit old postings)
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Photos on modifying latch for key removal while unlocked
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Well, I gave up.
I ordered a replacement gas cap from Partzilla 51049-0744 $118.04. It arrived today. To my surprise, the ring was painted, so that potential issue is gone. Of course, it comes without the lock cylinder which I will need to remove from the old one, clean, lube, and install in the new cap.
However, there are no instructions. And there is nothing anywhere I can find on the internet or in the factory manual as to the assembly and disassembly. There are lots of little parts in there that go flying when the latch is removed (I know because it happened before when I went to clean the latch), and the whole thing makes me very nervous (improper putting back of some of the parts could ruin the venting function). I do plan to disassemble the new one very carefully and take lots of photos this time.
Does anyone have any idea at least how the cylinder is removed? I don't want to "experiment" and end up creating a mess or damaging it.
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Post some pics of the new one. It's likely a circlip on the back of the lock that holds it in the housing.
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Wasn't there a tutorial on that? Me memory ain't as good as it used to be.
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Even if there isn't, I've been thinking about this mod. I may take mine apart to do the mod and then see how the lock comes out.
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Wasn't there a tutorial on that? Me memory ain't as good as it used to be.
I was the one who posted the tutorial on the latch mod. But not about the cylinder. I searched for hours trying to find anything anywhere about how it is done. Nada.
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Even if there isn't, I've been thinking about this mod. I may take mine apart to do the mod and then see how the lock comes out.
The lack/key removal modification doesn't require removing the cylinder, or disassembling anything except the latch part. My instructions warn pretty specifically not to allow all the rest of the stuff to come off, lest you will have a nightmare.
But I will carefully disassemble the new one and provide photos of what I find.
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I don't mind tearing things apart. Locks are one of my (too) many hobbies.
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This thread has been around coming on 7 years now. And I like thread reuse. But I spent a significant amount of time creating some general gas-cap replacement instructions and placed that in a different thread here: http://zggtr.org/index.php?topic=25405.0 since it is a different topic flavor and also so the main new material will be at the top.
This thread is still perfectly fine for discussion of the corrosion issues, latch "no key to close" modification, etc. :)