Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Son of Pappy on May 21, 2013, 12:39:51 PM
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So, first, some simple ground rules....
If someone such as Jamie from AreaP is developing and selling a MAP for a product don't share it here, unless of course he/they give permission.
What I would like to see are Auto Tune developed MAPs or MAPs built from a dyno run and saved to a PCV.
If we screw this up I am certain Mr Loctite will be along to put a stop to it.
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This run yielded 161.5 RWHP. I'm sure more is there, just need to get more air to the TBs.
To open the MAP you must download the Power Commander App which is free from Dynojet. http://www.dynojet.com/downloads/DefaultNew.aspx?ProdType=PCV (http://www.dynojet.com/downloads/DefaultNew.aspx?ProdType=PCV)
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Wouldn't Altitude/Temp/Humidity etc have an affect on the map?
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Wouldn't Altitude/Temp/Humidity etc have an affect on the map?
Yes, hence the Auto Tune, I get consistant MPG throughout the year and no perceptible loss of performance at higher altitudes. The conditions when I had the run were close to optimal. I just need to figure out how I can get more air in ;D Junes right around the corner which means track time, which means ram air will be in full effect :P
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Yes, hence the Auto Tune, I get consistent MPG throughout the year and no perceptible loss of performance at higher altitudes. The conditions when I had the run were close to optimal. I just need to figure out how I can get more air in ;D Junes right around the corner which means track time, which means ram air will be in full effect :P
I have the same setup with AutoTune but I'm always looking for more...
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I'm going to sticky this for a bit and we'll see what interest there is....so far, doesn't look like much unfortunately.
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I'm going to sticky this for a bit and we'll see what interest there is....so far, doesn't look like much unfortunately.
Ironically, I think "sticky" actually reduces attention/interest.
When I look at the forums, I look at what is "new", and that is what is below the stickies. I almost never pay any attention to stickies because many rarely change. I saw this by accident. When you moved the "low fuel warning" one, I didn't even know what happened.
I wonder if I am alone?
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So, who else has a MAP they want to share?
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Thanks for sharing your map SilverDammit!!!, it does seem to have more power now, the front wheel comes off the ground more easily!
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Ironically, I think "sticky" actually reduces attention/interest.
When I look at the forums, I look at what is "new", and that is what is below the stickies. I almost never pay any attention to stickies because many rarely change. I saw this by accident. When you moved the "low fuel warning" one, I didn't even know what happened.
I wonder if I am alone?
No, you are not. I occasionally look at the stickies, after looking at the other posts, if I remember they're there, and I have the time to spare. You asked the same question I've been wondering :yikes: ;).
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Ironically, I think "sticky" actually reduces attention/interest.
When I look at the forums, I look at what is "new", and that is what is below the stickies. I almost never pay any attention to stickies because many rarely change. I saw this by accident. When you moved the "low fuel warning" one, I didn't even know what happened.
I wonder if I am alone?
You're not alone, Max. All of us, for the most part, have C14's.
As far as stikying (sp?), I did it with this one because it was in danger of disappearing to page 2 and out of the immediate attention span of most us (myself included). I sticky things to keep them on the first page for various reasons. If there is enough traffic on a thread, it stays on the first page all by it's lonesome. I didn't see the traffic so I stickied it.
It really is amazing though, because it was getting close to gathering dust on page 2, I stickied it , and now look. I sit vindicated! :P
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Attached is dyno run with 2012 full areap, PCV, Jamie's map, ZX14 TB's, stock air filter. Ran several runs switching between Chet's map above and Jamie's map. They were almost identical except the air/fuel ratio was a little higher with Chet's map through most of the rpm ranges but same peak hp and tq. This is with SAE correction, it is my understanding that it would be 161.2 if it was using the STD correction factor as in Chet's dyno run. The bike feels a little better in Chet's map, but in either map there are not any noticeable problems at all, no hesitations, no stumble's, power is smooth everywhere, as you can see in the pretty nice curves. With Chet's map though, eco mode is a little different story, it gets really great gas mileage, but noticable less power.
Had to run in 4th gear because the ignition would cut out in 5th and 6th gears above 155 mph.
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My bike is a 2011 C-14 with AreaP full, K&N filter, ZX-14 TBs w/ flies out and PCV w/ Autotune. I have tried the map posted by Silverdammit!!. That map seems too lean for my bike. Mostly down low with quite a bit of hesitation. I have fiddled with it some but, I'm not all that good at figuring out the fuel needs of the bike. I have seen others have posted that they have the same setup and are using other maps with good success. I'm hoping to get and try those other maps. Anybody care to share? Thanks
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I updated the second post to include the link for downloading the PCV App, which is needed to open the MAP file. I have been getting quite a few requests for the MAP and as I have been busy riding I just haven't been around as much ;D
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Any one have Guhl's maps? I am about to flash mine and am looking for opinions on options. I am the epitome of the sport/tour in my riding style, so I'd really love to have a solid standard mode an a really efficient eco-mode. Suggestions?
Snype
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Attached is dyno run with 2012 full areap, PCV, Jamie's map, ZX14 TB's, stock air filter. Ran several runs switching between Chet's map above and Jamie's map. They were almost identical except the air/fuel ratio was a little higher with Chet's map through most of the rpm ranges but same peak hp and tq. This is with SAE correction, it is my understanding that it would be 161.2 if it was using the STD correction factor as in Chet's dyno run. The bike feels a little better in Chet's map, but in either map there are not any noticeable problems at all, no hesitations, no stumble's, power is smooth everywhere, as you can see in the pretty nice curves. With Chet's map though, eco mode is a little different story, it gets really great gas mileage, but noticable less power.
Had to run in 4th gear because the ignition would cut out in 5th and 6th gears above 155 mph.
Hey whatcom, do you have a copy of Jamies map you can share?
Because remember - sharing is caring :chugbeer:
Cheers Sunnycoaster.
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Dyno Tuned, Flies out, ZX14 TB's, AreaP full and K&N filter 165.5 hp and 105.7 trq w/ std correction. Has a little hesitation in very low rpm and throttle position. Occasionally will backfire on high rpm deceleration.
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Awesome #s!!!! Do you have a pic of the chart? I'm curious how the mid to upper graph looks. When I looked at mine I just felt there is more there if more air was allowed in.
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I think I need more Dyno time to clean up the low end response. I may try putting the flies back in to see what it feels like. When riding in the mountains on curvey roads any hesitation is quite annoying.
Anybody else have maps to share??
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Randy, is the Accelerator pump enabled? If it is, disable it and the stumble will disappear. When you installed the TBs did you add hoses to make syncing the TBs easier and did you sync the TBs after install? Thinking in print, also, what RPMs are you running at idle? I ended up close to 1350 for the best off idle response.
Looks like there is still a fairly large top end plateau, did the tuner make any comments about this? Or were they awe struck that a bike with bags, 2 seats, and a topcase made these kind of numbers?
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Bumping it so it's on my radar. Sorry for the interruption. But I do need a good map.
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For??
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Stock 08 except for a Muzzy slip on muffler. Want to open the flies earlier, mainly. Guess that should be easy to program without any help.
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A MAP won't control the flies, a Guhls reflash would be the answer if you want to keep them bits of pesky aluminum in place. Kinda like drinking from a straw with the wrapper still on ;)
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Randy, is the Accelerator pump enabled? If it is, disable it and the stumble will disappear. When you installed the TBs did you add hoses to make syncing the TBs easier and did you sync the TBs after install? Thinking in print, also, what RPMs are you running at idle? I ended up close to 1350 for the best off idle response.
Looks like there is still a fairly large top end plateau, did the tuner make any comments about this? Or were they awe struck that a bike with bags, 2 seats, and a topcase made these kind of numbers?
I just checked that the accelerator pump is disabled and it is. I added the hoses and had it synced when I installed them. Idle RPM is around 1200 and I'll try bumping it a little to see what happens. I think I just need more Dyno time to lean it out some on the bottom. Thanks for the suggestions.
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Dyno Tuned, Flies out, ZX14 TB's, AreaP full and K&N filter 165.5 hp and 105.7 trq w/ std correction. Has a little hesitation in very low rpm and throttle position. Occasionally will backfire on high rpm deceleration.
Randy,
Did you have the same cut-out issues in 5th and 6th gears on the dyno? Did you do your runs in 4th gear?
Any problem reaching the 9900 RPM Limiter?
I'm doing all of the same mods to my 2010 C14 in about a month when everything finally gets here. I've been curious about the RPM limit and the Top Speed limiter on the second gen C14. I've heard of a few now cutting out on the dyno....I'm assuming they're hitting the top speed limiter and not a separate fuel cut of some sort?
Is running the dyno pulls in 4th gear pretty common anyway? With other bikes I mean.
Cheers,
Rem 8)
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Just wanted to say thanks to Randy for sharing! Have been running this setup on my 2012 for about a year with Jamie's map. Randy's map made a very nice wakeup in the mid to upper range as shown in his dyno! Kudo's to Randy!
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Randy,
Did you have the same cut-out issues in 5th and 6th gears on the dyno? Did you do your runs in 4th gear?
Any problem reaching the 9900 RPM Limiter?
I'm doing all of the same mods to my 2010 C14 in about a month when everything finally gets here. I've been curious about the RPM limit and the Top Speed limiter on the second gen C14. I've heard of a few now cutting out on the dyno....I'm assuming they're hitting the top speed limiter and not a separate fuel cut of some sort?
Is running the dyno pulls in 4th gear pretty common anyway? With other bikes I mean.
Cheers,
Rem 8)
From what I saw of the dyno runs they do run it through the gears, set the throttle at a specific % and slowly drag the rpm's down by using the magnetic brake on the dyno. While this is happening they are analyzing the exhaust output and their computer, which is interfaced with the Dynojet PC, will adjust the fuel mixture to get it to the correct air/ fuel ratio (stoichiometric). After having done this several times in different gears they then do several full throttle runs, in 4th gear I think, to see how the HP looks.
As for any cut outs in 5th and 6th gears I can't say a saw any problems. Also, I believe there weren't any issues with the rev limiter, at least the person running the dyno didn't say anything. I did ask quite a few questions while there and he seemed satisfied with its performance.
I did talk to them a few days ago and I'm taking the bike back soon to try to smooth out the hesitations at low rpm's.
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From what I saw of the dyno runs they do run it through the gears, set the throttle at a specific % and slowly drag the rpm's down by using the magnetic brake on the dyno. While this is happening they are analyzing the exhaust output and their computer, which is interfaced with the Dynojet PC, will adjust the fuel mixture to get it to the correct air/ fuel ratio (stoichiometric). After having done this several times in different gears they then do several full throttle runs, in 4th gear I think, to see how the HP looks.
As for any cut outs in 5th and 6th gears I can't say a saw any problems. Also, I believe there weren't any issues with the rev limiter, at least the person running the dyno didn't say anything. I did ask quite a few questions while there and he seemed satisfied with its performance.
I did talk to them a few days ago and I'm taking the bike back soon to try to smooth out the hesitations at low rpm's.
Excellent RandyN,
Thanks for the reply. Can you let me (us) know if you update your PCV map after another Dyno run?
I'm going to be installing all of this stuff later this month when it gets here and will use your map as my baseline. That's the plan at least.
Thanks again for sharing your info. Great stuff.
Rem 8)
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I had it tweaked a little by the shop a few days back and have been testing some. This one is definitely better down low, with better throttle response and less hesitation than before. I still think it could go a little leaner though. When I put it in ECO mode it seems to run a slight bit better. I'm attaching screen caps of both maps to compare side by side, which I find helps me to understand what was done to the map. They didn't do a full dyno run on it to see how the power was changed, but if anything it is better down low and no change up top. The only changes were made in the 0-10% throttle range up to 5500 rpm's which was all leaned 7-9%. Also, the 0% was leaned which I think has gotten rid of my backfire that would happen occasionally on high rpm deceleration when I would crack the throttle suddenly. If any of you have had good luck with this map and made any changes to it please post it.
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Great stuff RandyN, thanks so much for sharing.
I have a clean and shiny set of ZX14 TB's sitting on the bench waiting to be installed....just waiting for stupid winter to be over, and for my Area-P system to arrive (that I ordered last year...lol). Anyway, patience is a virtue they say;).
I just mentioned this in another thread, but just so you know, the C14 ECU uses two fuel maps. From 0-10% (approx.) the ECU uses an IAP (Idle Air Pressure) map, and from 10-100% the ECU uses the regular TPS fuel map. There isn't a fixed cut off at 10% throttle position...but it will usually be close to that. The throttle body assembly has a MAP sensor that is supplying feedback to the ECU, which the ECU compares with current atmospheric pressure. So, at small throttle openings, there is a differential pressure that the ECU is monitoring. Once the throttle opens past a certain point, there ceases to be any pressure differential, and the ECU switches to the TPS based fuel table map. The point at which the ECU likely changes per the outside conditions...maybe 8% some days, maybe 11% on others, etc.
This may be why you guys are seeing some abruptness or off-idle issues with the ZX14 TB's. The PC5 would be trying to correct a moving target between 0-10% throttle position. Once the ECU settles on the TPS fuel map, the PC5 is golden. I still think the PC5 is the best option for the guys that like to tune their bikes.
Once this hateful winter settles down a bit here, I will be getting out and doing some tuning myself and will get back to you guys with some tuned PC5 maps, and later, a tuned ECU map should anybody want to try it.
Thanks again for sharing your PC5 map and thoughts. A tip of the ball cap to you.
Cheers,
Rem ;)
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Subscribing.
Thanks SOP for pointing me at this map thread.
I also have a set of ZX14's waiting to go on. I am waiting until after the 4 day road trip I'm taking after the 4th of July.
Already got the PCV on but am waiting on the auto tune.
Going to go with ZX14 full dual setup.
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Not being a technical bod with the tuning side of things but wont maps be unique to each setup?
I have a 2008 to which i added 2008 ZX14 headers (cat in), two brothers racing carbon dual pipes, K&N filter, flies out and PCV fitted. If this is of interest i can post my map. I have also fitted a switch to select map 2 on the fly to which i simply reduced fuel inputs by 10% for a certain rev range, throttle position. Works mint!
Heres my dyno print. My line is the blue line compared to a stock ZX 14 of same vintage (red)
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It's interesting that leaving the cat did not seem to affect your power numbers from what we've seen with the cat out.
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Not being a technical bod with the tuning side of things but wont maps be unique to each setup?
I have a 2008 to which i added 2008 ZX14 headers (cat in), two brothers racing carbon dual pipes, K&N filter, flies out and PCV fitted. If this is of interest i can post my map. I have also fitted a switch to select map 2 on the fly to which i simply reduced fuel inputs by 10% for a certain rev range, throttle position. Works mint!
Heres my dyno print. My line is the blue line compared to a stock ZX 14 of same vintage (red)
Same 2kish flat line at peak power, still leaves me wondering if air intake is a limiting factor. Anyone know what the difference in intakes is between the 2 "14s"?
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Same 2kish flat line at peak power, still leaves me wondering if air intake is a limiting factor. Anyone know what the difference in intakes is between the 2 "14s"?
I am curious about that too... like with most things, improving one area will keep moving the choke/restriction point(s) further and further up the system.
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Throttle body diameter went from 44 to 40 mm for the C14.
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Same 2kish flat line at peak power, still leaves me wondering if air intake is a limiting factor. Anyone know what the difference in intakes is between the 2 "14s"?
Air intake would be a limiting factor I'm sure...but that's always going to be an issue with dyno tuning/results...at least with the majority of dynos anyway. A C14 that makes 165 HP on the dyno will likely make 170 HP on the road once it gets some air to breath at the higher speeds and RPM's. Kawasaki uses bike speed to correct the fuel for the ram air...which is negated in dyno tuning.
The air box, air filters, and intake stacks on the C14 and ZX14 are the same....but the intake duct(s) themselves are different. ZX14 has one center intake, while the C14 has 2 smaller left and rights. The major difference would be the inside diameters of the throttlebody and intake boots.
In any case, I bet that flat line is right where the big C14 benefits the most from a little bit of forced air. I'll try mine next time I'm out for a run...I bumped my RPM limiter up to 10,500 so I should be able to see how it 'feels' when (IF) it hits that same flat spot on the road;).
Rem :o
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Great research Rembrandt! How did you bump up the RPM's?
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Great research Rembrandt! How did you bump up the RPM's?
I have the software for flashing the ECU and making map changes, etc. There is a section in the software for disabling the top speed limiter in the 2010-up models, as well as increasing (or decreasing) the rev limiter. Although the factory analog tach shows the redline at 10,500 RPM, it is actually set at 10,050 RPM in the ECU. This is why you will not see a C14 dyno chart past approx 10,000 RPM.
Rem 8)
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Hi guys. Sorry to resurrect an old topic but I’m after some help.
I’ve got a 2011 standard filter and a Two Bros end can and I’m going to remove the flies. I’ve got some stuttering issues when running at low revs. I’ve just installed a PCV and am after a map if anyone can help.
Thanks all
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1... leave the flies in, drop the PCV and have the ecu reflashed.
2... Pull the flies and add an Autotune with the PCV.
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Hi guys. Sorry to resurrect an old topic but I’m after some help.
I’ve got a 2011 standard filter and a Two Bros end can and I’m going to remove the flies. I’ve got some stuttering issues when running at low revs. I’ve just installed a PCV and am after a map if anyone can help.
Thanks all
Rembrandt answered your issue ^. The PC5 can't correct for fueling that's not tps based. You're never going to get rid of that stuttering with a PC5. About the best I think you can do is set your maps to "0" up to about10% throttle. HTH, Steve