Author Topic: Linked Brakes Fixed  (Read 71624 times)

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 10:53:34 AM »
No they didn't leak. I never even tried using them before I machined them. If you look at the attached photo "flare fitting" you will understand why I did it. They have to mate up with their opposite which is a convex flare inside a female threaded fitting. The bleeder adapter in the photo you will notice has a flat base and I didn't think it would seal without the concave flare. These were the only option that I found from Galfer. I suppose I could have searched more, but I got impatient.

Offline The Pope

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2013, 04:05:27 AM »
Any updates on this?

 :popcorn:
The Pope
2011 C-14 Atomic Silver...... aka ImprovedSilverDammIt.

"The Universe is a contest between engineers making things idiot-proof and God making bigger idiots. So far, God is winning by a wide margin." Unknown author, well I don't know who said it.

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2013, 08:31:37 AM »
Yes, I installed the custom line splitting the left front brake line out of the ABS block and blocked the right front line out of ABS. I reinstalled the rear brake line as per normal setup. I've been testing it to make sure all is functioning normally and so far it seems right. I have ABS in the rear and I have ABS in the front. The problem that existed before which was when you were applying front brake and were to just touch the rear making it all of a sudden grab more front brake is gone. I can still feel that the rear brake pedal is effected by the front, but it isn't noticeably changing the braking characteristics other than the rear pedal feels a little stiffer when holding the front.

Overall I'm pretty sure I like the fix because I have ABS in both wheels now. With my other fix I liked the feel of the front lever and rear pedal better, but didn't have ABS in the rear. I just have to make up my mind as to which way I will stay with.

The parts were obtained from Galfer and are a t-fitting and two lines at 16cm and 20cm. I would shorten the 16cm to probably 15cm(that's the one on the left in photo) because it seemed a little long. Attached is my order sheet also.

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2013, 08:38:22 AM »
So are the brakes completely unlinked?  When you apply the front, do you get rear?  Or (more importantly to me), when you apply the rear, do you get ANY front brake at all?

I am just waiting to get this info to decide which way to go.  When I do, I will order parts and ship my ECU off to Guhl.  Already have a Sargent seat on order, so when done, I will have the 3 things I dislike (seat, limited low end power and godawful  linked brakes) FIXED.

2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2013, 08:58:26 AM »
When you apply the front brake it still applies the rear but when you apply the rear it doesn't apply the front because the line that is linked is the right line and it is blocked. You don't get that unexpected sudden application of more front when using the front then applying the rear. If that's what you are looking to get rid of it does it. Although, the rear pedal feel is effected by the front. If you were to apply only rear it feels normal. Then at another time you were to apply front then rear, you won't get the sudden dive and grab of more front brakes, but the rear does feel stiffer than when applying it by itself.

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2013, 09:02:44 AM »
I really don't care a ton about rear brake feel when applying both.

Awesome, thanks for all your research and effort on this!  I am ordering parts ASAP.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2013, 09:09:07 AM »
Another question, how did you bleed all this?  If it's conventional bleeding technique, I will order some speed bleeders from Murph.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline The Pope

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2013, 09:51:03 AM »
When you apply the front brake it still applies the rear but when you apply the rear it doesn't apply the front because the line that is linked is the right line and it is blocked. You don't get that unexpected sudden application of more front when using the front then applying the rear. If that's what you are looking to get rid of it does it. Although, the rear pedal feel is effected by the front. If you were to apply only rear it feels normal. Then at another time you were to apply front then rear, you won't get the sudden dive and grab of more front brakes, but the rear does feel stiffer than when applying it by itself.

I presume this is with the "Low"  OO setting. If so, can you test it with the "High" (OO) setting?
I'm going to speculate that when the brakes are set to the "High" setting, they will still be linked.
The Pope
2011 C-14 Atomic Silver...... aka ImprovedSilverDammIt.

"The Universe is a contest between engineers making things idiot-proof and God making bigger idiots. So far, God is winning by a wide margin." Unknown author, well I don't know who said it.

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2013, 10:28:57 AM »
Just got back from a ride here in Ft. Lauderdale, in the rain, and had a chance to test it some more. Tested mode 2 High (OO) setting while trying to lock up the brakes and could feel no difference from mode 1 Low OO setting. Brakes feel better than original.

I presume this is with the "Low"  OO setting. If so, can you test it with the "High" (OO) setting?
I'm going to speculate that when the brakes are set to the "High" setting, they will still be linked.

I hadn't thought of testing the link mode yet, but would assume it will have no effect on how much it changes it since the line(right front caliper line) that does the rear to front link is blocked. When applying the rear it goes through the ABS block then to the right front, which is now blocked so nothing goes from rear to front. When applying front the pressure goes from front master to ABS block then to rear and both front calipers. So, if you think about the routing of this the mode won't have any effect. Mode 2 is applying more pressure to right front.

As for bleeding it I just bled like I would normally. How I do it is to have a clear hose attached to a sealed plastic container with a line out on it for vacuum. I'll suck out all the fluid in the reservoir, refill it then attach the hose at each bleeder point and pump the lever a few times, hold it and release the pressure from the bleeder. I don't see the need for any speed bleeders at all. I can bleed the whole brake system in 15-20 minutes.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 09:46:08 PM by RandyN »

Offline The Pope

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2013, 05:46:12 PM »
Any more updates? ;D
The Pope
2011 C-14 Atomic Silver...... aka ImprovedSilverDammIt.

"The Universe is a contest between engineers making things idiot-proof and God making bigger idiots. So far, God is winning by a wide margin." Unknown author, well I don't know who said it.

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2013, 07:08:40 PM »
Sorry it took so long to reply. Been riding NC/TN/GA mountains and had no internet. Brakes worked fine throughout the whole ride, about 1000 miles of twisty stuff over a week period. The ABS works fine front and back. The link from front to back is still there but I don't get the dramatic and sudden braking of the front when also applying the rear at the same time. I do feel the rear affecting the front lever but it isn't too bad. I still like my previous fix which was to completely disconnect the rear from the ABS block and run a line from the rear master to the caliper directly. It has a better feel to it but of course no ABS for the back. I may switch it to that and give it another try.

Offline double a-ron

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2013, 07:17:05 AM »
Hello all. I just got a 2012 two weeks ago, so I decided to join the forum. It was this thread actually, that made me want to join. I am gathering the parts required to do this job and have some questions.

1) Why not bridge the two calipers together, then run ONE line to the abs manifold? Almost all sport bikes run this style setup, including my k6 gsxr1000.

2) I read in an earlier post that you spec the bleeder at M10 x 1.0, are the banjo bolts on the calipers the same thread pitch?

3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe kawasaki is using the abs piston to control how much force is distributed to the front and rear. If this is so, this could be corrected with some kind of firmware update.

Offline PlaynInPeoria

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2013, 08:08:20 AM »
3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe kawasaki is using the abs piston to control how much force is distributed to the front and rear. If this is so, this could be corrected with some kind of firmware update.

Yup, we kinda figured that.  But we would need to know what ECU the new flash file goes to, acquire that reconfigured flash file, get that flash file into it and test it. I have no idea how any of those things are accomplished, so we are forced to come up with a hardware solution. 

BTW, I do this stuff for a living on large yellow tractors.  I think having the linked braking amount should be something you should be able to 'tune' (adjust in a menu). It's SO easy, but Kawasaki chose to provide a terriblly configured system with no method of changing it. 
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2013, 09:01:41 AM »

1) Why not bridge the two calipers together, then run ONE line to the abs manifold? Almost all sport bikes run this style setup, including my k6 gsxr1000.
That is in effect what I have done by splitting the left line out of the ABS block the two front calipers are connected on one line. The right line out of ABS is the one that has pressure from rear brake fed to front.

2) I read in an earlier post that you spec the bleeder at M10 x 1.0, are the banjo bolts on the calipers the same thread pitch? I'm pretty sure that all are the same, although I didn't check it. If you need to know, I'm sure Galfer could tell you.

3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe kawasaki is using the abs piston to control how much force is distributed to the front and rear. If this is so, this could be corrected with some kind of firmware update.That is what a lot of us are hoping for. Maybe if enough customers call and complain it might be fixed (Kawasaki service # (949) 770-0400)

Offline The Pope

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2013, 09:26:48 AM »
1) Why not bridge the two calipers together, then run ONE line to the abs manifold? Almost all sport bikes run this style setup, including my k6 gsxr1000.
As RandyN has already stated, that is effectively what he did. With not knowing for sure that this would work, it was much easier to do it the way he did. Once we get this all figured out and if this is the answer, then getting a set of aftermarker ss break lines that are for a 2008/09 ABS equiped bike would be the route that most might take to do this mod.

The Pope
2011 C-14 Atomic Silver...... aka ImprovedSilverDammIt.

"The Universe is a contest between engineers making things idiot-proof and God making bigger idiots. So far, God is winning by a wide margin." Unknown author, well I don't know who said it.

Offline double a-ron

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2013, 11:53:20 AM »
I placed an order with galfer using randy's order form and pics. I agree this is the simplest way to accomplish this. I just thought the most efficient way would be to run a short line from the left caliper to the right caliper. Then run a single line to the abs manifold. That is why I asked about the caliper banjo bolt thread. The one on the right caliper would have to be replaced with a double banjo bolt. I figured, though, that randy's setup would be much easier to install and bleed, since most of the lines stay in place.

One more thing, I did 5 hard stops from 80 MPH to 0 using just the front lever. I then stopped and used an infrared gun to check the temp on the rear disk. It was only 100 degrees. Keep in mind, the outside temp here in Miami right now is over 90. My point? I don't think much, if any, force is applied to the rear. It's all rear to front. I also think another poster had it right: this was designed for stupid people that think the brake pedal is what is primarily used to stop a motorcycle. Ridiculous. 

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2013, 12:25:09 PM »
It would be interesting to see what the temps would be if you did five hard stops using only the rear pedal. I would guess the rear would be the hottest followed by the right front and no rise at all on the left front.

If you can modify your order I would recommend shortening the 16cm line to 15cm. If you look at the photos I posted it has a little too much length and touches the tank. Not enough to really worry me but, if I had to do it over I'd go shorter.

Also, make sure they send you the little brass compression fittings that go into their adapters. They are about the size of a kernel of corn and go between the existing male fittings and their female hose ends. They forgot to send them to me and it cost me a week of down time.

Offline double a-ron

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2013, 01:17:51 PM »
Thanks, I'll make sure they get sent. What was the lead time and cost?

Offline RandyN

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2013, 03:02:47 PM »
As I remember it took them about a week to get them to me. The cost was around $110-120, not sure on it.

Offline double a-ron

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Re: Linked Brakes Fixed
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2013, 03:12:07 PM »
Just finished removing the flies, installing a bmc air filter, pcv, cee bailey's screen, and of course; the new brake lines. It did EXACTLY what you said it would. It stopped the wicked dive that happens when you activate the rear brake after the front has been applied. I still notice the servo trying to reduce rear braking force when pushing hard on the pedal after applying the front though. What do you think would happen if I plugged each rubber line coming from the abs manifold with a bleeder, and ran a normal brake line setup? I.E. master cylinder connected directly to the calipers. Do you think the ecu would freak out? I know I would lose abs.

P.S. Now I only have to wait twenty more years for my area-p full system to show up.