A thread about nothing at all....

[B.D.F.]

OK, I must have had old information- at any rate, it was clearly wrong, although unless you are running VERY heavy gauge wire, you are not protecting the entire circuit (ring) from the breaker panel. Our individual circuits must be protected by the rating of the thinnest gauge wire used on that circuit although the only two that are commonly used for 115 VAC wiring are 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp breaker or 12 gauge wire and a 20 amp breaker. But once a breaker is installed, nothing can be wired anywhere in that circuit that is smaller than the gauge size required to carry all the current that breaker can supply.

I had to do some translating but your RCB appears to be our GFI (ground fault interrupter; if the power going 'out' one wire is not identical the the power coming 'in' to the other, the breaker trips). Ours are set at a max. of 5 milliamps which is probably a decent guess 'cause it takes ~100 milliamps across one's heart to send it into fibrillation (with almost no other choices, read: death).

Apparently your 'rings' are wiring circuits with multiple taps or devices on them? If so, we call those circuits.

It also sounds like you separate your lighting circuits (rings) from those providing power (outlets) given the very different current ratings; we do not and can and do put lights and outlets on the same circuits.



This is a sub- panel so there are a couple of oddities: the mains are not lug mounted but placed where breakers would normally go, and the lugs and strips for all the other breakers are being back- fed (100 amp mains in top left, covered with masking tape for identification). You can probably see that some breakers are singles and only have one pole, making them 115 VAC, while some are double making them 230 VAC. The plastic covering each wire indicates that wire's size and in this box there are white (14 ga., 15 amp max), yellow (12 ga., 20 amp) and orange (10 ga. 30 amp max.). The box is open and we are probing each breaker so we can label the other end wherever it ends.

And as to the requirement of being a licensed electrician to work on wiring in a house: well, that depends again on the state. There are no federal laws and each state regulates how things are. Most states adopt what is provided as the National Electrical Code (NEC) but they twiddle with it as they desire. Now in my state, the home owner can do any / all of his / her electrical work on that person's place of residence. Any rental properties must have a licensed electrician work on the wiring. In neighboring MA, all electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician. Everywhere in the US, the great majority of electrical work is done inside homes so laws are simply not applied and whoever can do whatever he / she pleases, often resulting in some scary stuff. Really.

Brian

I'm sure there's a good reason for the voltage difference however it escapes me for the moment

Electrical installations are pretty stringent over here.

You have to either be certified or get a certified electrician in to check any DIY wiring and lately that's also includes things like outdoor security lights


Yes you're right in saying that each individual appliance is fused at the plug however the main fusebox also has to have resettable RCCBs etc and each ring /circuit in the house is also protected by a circuit breaker/fuse.

Looking at he Pic of my main fusebox then from Right to Left I have

A main Siwtch to isolate from the incoming supply.
a 40A circuit for the cooker
a 16A circuit for the water heater (actually mines hooked up to the jauzzi bath as all my water heating is done by a gas combi boiler)
separate 6A circuits for the up and downstairs lighting
a 6A circuit for outside lights
The RCB protecting the Main Rings
separate 32A  circuits for the upstairs & downstairs rings
a 16Amp circuit put in for some extension wiring by the PO that are separate from the downstairs ring main


http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/fusebox.jpg




E

[mikeyw64]

Its called a ring main as there is literally a ring all the way around with unlimited multiple sockets/wall outlets on it all in parallel although you are permitted to run a single outlet from any of the ones on the ring (within certain limits).

Ring main wiring is 2.5mm/14AWG

There are also little things like a ring main should not cover an area greater then 100sq metres.

Also as stated each individual appliance you plug is is also separately fused with anything from a 3A to a 15A fuse


And yes the RCD is the same sort of thing as the GFI

OK, I must have had old information- at any rate, it was clearly wrong, although unless you are running VERY heavy gauge wire, you are not protecting the entire circuit (ring) from the breaker panel. Our individual circuits must be protected by the rating of the thinnest gauge wire used on that circuit although the only two that are commonly used for 115 VAC wiring are 14 gauge wire and a 15 amp breaker or 12 gauge wire and a 20 amp breaker. But once a breaker is installed, nothing can be wired anywhere in that circuit that is smaller than the gauge size required to carry all the current that breaker can supply.

I had to do some translating but your RCB appears to be our GFI (ground fault interrupter; if the power going 'out' one wire is not identical the the power coming 'in' to the other, the breaker trips). Ours are set at a max. of 5 milliamps which is probably a decent guess 'cause it takes ~100 milliamps across one's heart to send it into fibrillation (with almost no other choices, read: death).

Apparently your 'rings' are wiring circuits with multiple taps or devices on them? If so, we call those circuits.

It also sounds like you separate your lighting circuits (rings) from those providing power (outlets) given the very different current ratings; we do not and can and do put lights and outlets on the same circuits.



This is a sub- panel so there are a couple of oddities: the mains are not lug mounted but placed where breakers would normally go, and the lugs and strips for all the other breakers are being back- fed (100 amp mains in top left, covered with masking tape for identification). You can probably see that some breakers are singles and only have one pole, making them 115 VAC, while some are double making them 230 VAC. The plastic covering each wire indicates that wire's size and in this box there are white (14 ga., 15 amp max), yellow (12 ga., 20 amp) and orange (10 ga. 30 amp max.). The box is open and we are probing each breaker so we can label the other end wherever it ends.

And as to the requirement of being a licensed electrician to work on wiring in a house: well, that depends again on the state. There are no federal laws and each state regulates how things are. Most states adopt what is provided as the National Electrical Code (NEC) but they twiddle with it as they desire. Now in my state, the home owner can do any / all of his / her electrical work on that person's place of residence. Any rental properties must have a licensed electrician work on the wiring. In neighboring MA, all electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician. Everywhere in the US, the great majority of electrical work is done inside homes so laws are simply not applied and whoever can do whatever he / she pleases, often resulting in some scary stuff. Really.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

OK, that is why I understood you do not protect your actual circuits, you 'sort of' do not. 32 amps on 14 gauge wire would not fly here (assuming we are using the same gauge, no real reason to think that is correct either). We have limits on how many outlets / lighting receptacles can go on one circuit as well. Overall, it looks like we break our systems down a bit further than you do; we typically have 40 or more breakers in a typical house while it looks like you have more like 10 or 12. Otherwise, about the same.

The only real difference is that our devices have no fuses or protection of any kind. Perhaps that is why small appliances cause so many residential fires here (seriously)?

Brian

Its called a ring main as there is literally a ring all the way around with unlimited multiple sockets/wall outlets on it all in parallel although you are permitted to run a single outlet from any of the ones on the ring (within certain limits).

Ring main wiring is 2.5mm/14AWG

There are also little things like a ring main should not cover an area greater then 100sq metres.

Also as stated each individual appliance you plug is is also separately fused with anything from a 3A to a 15A fuse


And yes the RCD is the same sort of thing as the GFI

[mikeyw64]

don't forget though as its a ring then its 32 amps split both ways as both ends of the ring come back into the same fuse

Given that AWG stands for American Wire Gauge  I presume it is the same

BTW your Pic  looks like something you might find in a commercial premises here rather than something found in a residential home.

This is my complete setup (bear in mind I live in an older house, built in 1911. A new build install would be the same but quite a bit neater finished(usually) .

Supply comes in/out at the bottom via a Master Fuse, the smaller white box is the electricity meter and at the top is the main fuse box

http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/fusebox2.jpg

OK, that is why I understood you do not protect your actual circuits, you 'sort of' do not. 32 amps on 14 gauge wire would not fly here (assuming we are using the same gauge, no real reason to think that is correct either). We have limits on how many outlets / lighting receptacles can go on one circuit as well. Overall, it looks like we break our systems down a bit further than you do; we typically have 40 or more breakers in a typical house while it looks like you have more like 10 or 12. Otherwise, about the same.

The only real difference is that our devices have no fuses or protection of any kind. Perhaps that is why small appliances cause so many residential fires here (seriously)?

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Ah, hence the term ring :-)  Yeah, I did not get that. We do not do that here, electricity is one- way, out of the box and through the one circuit. But seeing as you use two runs of wire, that is almost the same rating we would get: 32 amps divided by two for two runs of 14 gauge, would be 16 amps. We allow 15 but not enough difference to worry about.

Also interesting on the meter: ours are outside as far as I know. The breaker panel can be inside or outside, and that seems to depend on the area of the country more than anything else; breaker panels are always inside in this area as far as I know and have never seen it done any other way.

Power comes from feeder wires from the nearest telephone pole and run overhead to a high (usually) corner on the house. Those wires are the power company's. Then they attach to the building owner's wires, attach to the building owner's mounting point and run down the building to the meter trough, also owned by the building owner. Another wire leaves the bottom of the trough, goes into the house and the main breaker panel, all owned by the building owner. But the meter is the property of the electric company and is needed to 'jump' the meter trough and power up the house. That is the fast, easy way they cut power- they take their meter away.

My install looks like this:



same photo much lighter so you can see the weatherhead (the place where the my wiring ends / power co.'s wiring begins)



And recently, maybe 20 years ago in this area, new neighborhoods are going in without any overhead wiring at all. Everything is underground and there are service boxes to tap into electrical, phone, cable and other utilities. Much, much neater and far less prone to storm damage, plus no telephone poles to get in the way of cars trying to drive on the sidewalk- a real win- win situation. The power co. suggested I run my new service underground.... which they would be happy to lay the cable in the trench I dug :-(   Not cost effective I am afraid. Poles and wires get out of hand though; look at some place like NYC in the 1920's and there are so many tiers to the poles, and so many wires crossing all over the place that I wonder if someone who jumped off a building could even hit the ground. 

Brian

don't forget though as its a ring then its 32 amps split both ways as both ends of the ring come back into the same fuse

Given that AWG stands for American Wire Gauge  I presume it is the same

BTW your Pic  looks like something you might find in a commercial premises here rather than something found in a residential home.

This is my complete setup (bear in mind I live in an older house, built in 1911. A new build install would be the same but quite a bit neater finished(usually) .

Supply comes in/out at the bottom via a Master Fuse, the smaller white box is the electricity meter and at the top is the main fuse box

http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/fusebox2.jpg

[mikeyw64]

Ah so what you do is run a radial circuit(s)

Other than some rural areas the power in the main (no pun intended) comes in via underground cables.

As for the meter , new properties the electricity ( & gas) meters are typically  accessible from outside the house so they can be read without need to come in. Fuse boxes are pretty much always indoors, usually high up away from kids although mine is at floor level, again due to being an older property.


That said there is a big push at the moment for Smart meters that phone home via short range radio/wifi to local collector points

Ah, hence the term ring :-)  Yeah, I did not get that. We do not do that here, electricity is one- way, out of the box and through the one circuit. But seeing as you use two runs of wire, that is almost the same rating we would get: 32 amps divided by two for two runs of 14 gauge, would be 16 amps. We allow 15 but not enough difference to worry about.

Also interesting on the meter: ours are outside as far as I know. The breaker panel can be inside or outside, and that seems to depend on the area of the country more than anything else; breaker panels are always inside in this area as far as I know and have never seen it done any other way.

Power comes from feeder wires from the nearest telephone pole and run overhead to a high (usually) corner on the house. Those wires are the power company's. Then they attach to the building owner's wires, attach to the building owner's mounting point and run down the building to the meter trough, also owned by the building owner. Another wire leaves the bottom of the trough, goes into the house and the main breaker panel, all owned by the building owner. But the meter is the property of the electric company and is needed to 'jump' the meter trough and power up the house. That is the fast, easy way they cut power- they take their meter away.

My install looks like this:



same photo much lighter so you can see the weatherhead (the place where the my wiring ends / power co.'s wiring begins)



Brian

[B.D.F.]

Sure, I guess that would be a fine term. Like spokes on a wheel, they leave the hub (the breaker panel) and do not come back. In fact, depending on exactly how your wiring is done, it would violate one of the cardinal rules here: only one source of power for any box or containment device. Put another way, suppose there are 5 wires running into a junction box (a box where we join wires, ALL wires MUST be connected in a box with exactly one exception not worth bothering with here): only one can supply power or be 'hot' under any circumstances. That way when you cut power to that box, you know that box is 'cold'. So yeah, one run out of the panel, but that run can have many junction boxes, outlets, switches, lights, etc., etc. on it. There is a limit, and a way to figure that limit (just been through all this for my own house but I think it is 1.2 amps per outlet, so something like a max. of 18? 15? allowable on a 20 amp circuit) but it rarely kicks in. Our electrical code is in a book you could measure in inches.

My water meter is as you describe; in the house but readable via RF from outside. But electrical meters are all outside although I believe the new ones use RF for remote but short range reading also. We have 'meter readers' who walk around and read the meters (water, gas (not THAT gas, what you I believe call methane, electric).

Yeah, non- Americans are surprised to see all the telephone poles and wires here. As I said, it is moving underground but only in newly built communities around here (where I live specifically). In large cities, it all went underground long ago. Hey, it gives us something to bang into with an errant car; no shortage of cars driving into them either. On rare occasions, with enough speed and a sizeable car, it IS possible to snap a pole off and cut off power and communications to entire communities. But as I said, that takes a LOT of effort, mostly the pole does fine and the car has a very distinctive "U" shaped groove in the front, depth depending on the speed of the vehicle (the poles rarely have any velocity at all so everything is up to the determination of the driver).

I am not aware of anything like local data collection centers or the means of how to get the data there. ?? I do know that my landline phones ALWAYS know what the correct time / date is so they must be in contact with something over the phone line without announcing it.

An English friend of many years ago claimed all the clocks in the UK had some type of embedded setting mechanism / link; bring them home,  power them up and after a short while, they would display the correct time. Neat idea. Not happening in the US, again as far as I know. And it would not be shunned either: recently with all the Karate Kid power stuff going on around here (power on / power off / power on / power off) we have had more than enough clock setting. I believe there is only one time zone in the UK so that would really help that system work there; there are four times zones in the continental US, plus some really strange daylight savings time situations (an official date for it to start, then the altered date on which it really starts, usually a few weeks separate).

Brian

Ah so what you do is run a radial circuit(s)

Other than some rural areas the power in the main (no pun intended) comes in via underground cables.

As for the meter , new properties the electricity ( & gas) meters are typically  accessible from outside the house so they can be read without need to come in. Fuse boxes are pretty much always indoors, usually high up away from kids although mine is at floor level, again due to being an older property.


That said there is a big push at the moment for Smart meters that phone home via short range radio/wifi to local collector points

[mikeyw64]

The bloody French like hanging everything off (concrete) poles as well

Smart Meters:

Yes there are some older ones like your water meters with short range capability (our water meters are the same if you have one) however for the newer generation then "Inside your home, smart meters use their own secure, wireless network using radio waves, just like mobile phones or TVs do. Smart meters don't use the internet to send or receive data and you don't need an internet connection for it to work.

Your smart meters will link to a similar wireless network outside your home. This network is run by the Data Communications Company, which is overseen by the energy regulator Ofgem.

There are strict new regulations and codes of practice to keep smart meter data private, secure and safe."


https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/about-smart-meters/what-is-a-smart-meter?gclid=Cj0KCQjwierMBRCHARIsAHl9i4EljtUzSiWQAAiOZ-Oc-Ef18z55e52B0-Zf9j3EJOwG88yLJ5d3tOIaArmlEALw_wcB



As for your landline knowing the time don't you use a VOIP system rather than a more traditional  POTS (Plain Old Telephone System).


By its very nature that will be able to get its time signal using NTP (Network Time Protocol) same as any other (inter) network connected device can.

We call gas  gas, the stuff used in your car or bike is petrol (unless you're running LPG  in which case it may be referred to as gas)

Sure, I guess that would be a fine term. Like spokes on a wheel, they leave the hub (the breaker panel) and do not come back. In fact, depending on exactly how your wiring is done, it would violate one of the cardinal rules here: only one source of power for any box or containment device. Put another way, suppose there are 5 wires running into a junction box (a box where we join wires, ALL wires MUST be connected in a box with exactly one exception not worth bothering with here): only one can supply power or be 'hot' under any circumstances. That way when you cut power to that box, you know that box is 'cold'. So yeah, one run out of the panel, but that run can have many junction boxes, outlets, switches, lights, etc., etc. on it. There is a limit, and a way to figure that limit (just been through all this for my own house but I think it is 1.2 amps per outlet, so something like a max. of 18? 15? allowable on a 20 amp circuit) but it rarely kicks in. Our electrical code is in a book you could measure in inches.

My water meter is as you describe; in the house but readable via RF from outside. But electrical meters are all outside although I believe the new ones use RF for remote but short range reading also. We have 'meter readers' who walk around and read the meters (water, gas (not THAT gas, what you I believe call methane, electric).

Yeah, non- Americans are surprised to see all the telephone poles and wires here. As I said, it is moving underground but only in newly built communities around here (where I live specifically). In large cities, it all went underground long ago. Hey, it gives us something to bang into with an errant car; no shortage of cars driving into them either. On rare occasions, with enough speed and a sizeable car, it IS possible to snap a pole off and cut off power and communications to entire communities. But as I said, that takes a LOT of effort, mostly the pole does fine and the car has a very distinctive "U" shaped groove in the front, depth depending on the speed of the vehicle (the poles rarely have any velocity at all so everything is up to the determination of the driver).

I am not aware of anything like local data collection centers or the means of how to get the data there. ?? I do know that my landline phones ALWAYS know what the correct time / date is so they must be in contact with something over the phone line without announcing it.

An English friend of many years ago claimed all the clocks in the UK had some type of embedded setting mechanism / link; bring them home,  power them up and after a short while, they would display the correct time. Neat idea. Not happening in the US, again as far as I know. And it would not be shunned either: recently with all the Karate Kid power stuff going on around here (power on / power off / power on / power off) we have had more than enough clock setting. I believe there is only one time zone in the UK so that would really help that system work there; there are four times zones in the continental US, plus some really strange daylight savings time situations (an official date for it to start, then the altered date on which it really starts, usually a few weeks separate).

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Our concrete poles are wood :-) Pressure treated, oozing tar, they last forever and are easy for linemen to climb using a pair of ankle spikes and a sling.

Please do not compare us to the French in any way.    It is apparently inherited, exported or whatever but all native English speaking people seem to have inherited your...... distast for the French :-)  I say that mostly in jest but with a little truth mixed in.

Yes, my landline is VOIP but it hardwires into the cable co's box in the cellar (basement- the room under my house) as 24 VAC analog signal so anything making it to the actual telephone is coming over as an analog signal, not digital. It may be digitally encoded up to the box in my house but analog after that. Which I am inferring would work over plain old 24 volt analog landlines though I may be wrong. Your area, not mine.

Gas and the language barrier: "Gas" as a vehicle fuel is usually referring to gasoline, heavier than, say, benzine but still a true solvent, lighter than kerosene, the fist of the oils; what you call petrol, which I believe is short for petroleum, a serious misnomer IMO. But we also use propane, which is liquefied and sold, stored and used from steel cylinders. And we also have natural gas, this is what I think you call methane and pronounce as mee- thane but am not sure. Now natural gas can be liquefied and is then called LNG, or liquefied natural gas. Not normally used in the US; we use our gas in the gaseous state and it is piped into our homes and businesses that way. LNG is shipped via container ship but that is the cause of huge controversy because a ship full of that stuff packs a serious punch and most cities / ports have a serious and sometimes desperate contingent of people trying to keep it OUT of their cities. NIMBY is the acronym: Not In My Back Yard, meaning is is a great idea, just do it some place else where I am outside of the concussion or fallout ring.

Funny story time: Way back in the 1970's, a new nuclear power plant was build in Seebrook, NH, on the coast. The usual suspects showed up to protest. But when it was time to bring in the core and actually power the thing up, the antis showed up in droves. Somehow, the time and place of the convoy moving the reactor core and fuel rods got out and there was a concerted effort to block highways, the power plant, etc., etc. to stop it from being fueled and activated. And it was successful.... sort of. What really happened is that the Gummit leaked the info., and planned on the resistance along the highway, plant entrance, etc. all the while, sending the core to the power plant via barge, after which the plant was cored, fueled and a reaction started. I am not really active in the nuclear debate but that was kind of funny, at least IMO. Seabrook 2 was never completed but Seabrook1 is running today.

Brian

The bloody French like hanging everything off (concrete) poles as well

Smart Meters:

Yes there are some older ones like your water meters with short range capability (our water meters are the same if you have one) however for the newer generation then "Inside your home, smart meters use their own secure, wireless network using radio waves, just like mobile phones or TVs do. Smart meters don't use the internet to send or receive data and you don't need an internet connection for it to work.

Your smart meters will link to a similar wireless network outside your home. This network is run by the Data Communications Company, which is overseen by the energy regulator Ofgem.

There are strict new regulations and codes of practice to keep smart meter data private, secure and safe."


https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/about-smart-meters/what-is-a-smart-meter?gclid=Cj0KCQjwierMBRCHARIsAHl9i4EljtUzSiWQAAiOZ-Oc-Ef18z55e52B0-Zf9j3EJOwG88yLJ5d3tOIaArmlEALw_wcB



As for your landline knowing the time don't you use a VOIP system rather than a more traditional  POTS (Plain Old Telephone System).


By its very nature that will be able to get its time signal using NTP (Network Time Protocol) same as any other (inter) network connected device can.

We call gas  gas, the stuff used in your car or bike is petrol (unless you're running LPG  in which case it may be referred to as gas)

[mikeyw64]

Nope gas used in the home for cooking or heating is just that , gas(or same as you n, natural gas.

Methane is something that comes out of the arse end of cows

Propane is typically used for camping and (a bit like a hoover) is quite often just referred to coas "calor gas" when in larger containers such as for caravan/campervan use.


In smaller bottles it tends to be referred to as "camping gaz"


Nope if its s VOIP its VOIP not analogue, the clues in the acronym, Voice Over Internet Protocol.

Of course your telco may be providing you with what is effectively a local PBX and its only VOIP from the basement out.

The giveaway usually is if the basestation/handset (as opposed to the NTE (Network Termination Equipment)  in the basement has an RJ45 ethernet cable too it.

If it has it's most definitely a VOIP handset and will (most likely) also be using POE (Power Over Ethernet) to run it. (IIRC POE is about 45V DC)

Our concrete poles are wood :-) Pressure treated, oozing tar, they last forever and are easy for linemen to climb using a pair of ankle spikes and a sling.

Please do not compare us to the French in any way.    It is apparently inherited, exported or whatever but all native English speaking people seem to have inherited your...... distast for the French :-)  I say that mostly in jest but with a little truth mixed in.

Yes, my landline is VOIP but it hardwires into the cable co's box in the cellar (basement- the room under my house) as 24 VAC analog signal so anything making it to the actual telephone is coming over as an analog signal, not digital. It may be digitally encoded up to the box in my house but analog after that. Which I am inferring would work over plain old 24 volt analog landlines though I may be wrong. Your area, not mine.

Gas and the language barrier: "Gas" as a vehicle fuel is usually referring to gasoline, heavier than, say, benzine but still a true solvent, lighter than kerosene, the fist of the oils; what you call petrol, which I believe is short for petroleum, a serious misnomer IMO. But we also use propane, which is liquefied and sold, stored and used from steel cylinders. And we also have natural gas, this is what I think you call methane and pronounce as mee- thane but am not sure. Now natural gas can be liquefied and is then called LNG, or liquefied natural gas. Not normally used in the US; we use our gas in the gaseous state and it is piped into our homes and businesses that way. LNG is shipped via container ship but that is the cause of huge controversy because a ship full of that stuff packs a serious punch and most cities / ports have a serious and sometimes desperate contingent of people trying to keep it OUT of their cities. NIMBY is the acronym: Not In My Back Yard, meaning is is a great idea, just do it some place else where I am outside of the concussion or fallout ring.

Funny story time: Way back in the 1970's, a new nuclear power plant was build in Seebrook, NH, on the coast. The usual suspects showed up to protest. But when it was time to bring in the core and actually power the thing up, the antis showed up in droves. Somehow, the time and place of the convoy moving the reactor core and fuel rods got out and there was a concerted effort to block highways, the power plant, etc., etc. to stop it from being fueled and activated. And it was successful.... sort of. What really happened is that the Gummit leaked the info., and planned on the resistance along the highway, plant entrance, etc. all the while, sending the core to the power plant via barge, after which the plant was cored, fueled and a reaction started. I am not really active in the nuclear debate but that was kind of funny, at least IMO. Seabrook 2 was never completed but Seabrook1 is running today.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Well, your gas sounds like our gas.  Other than we call it propane no matter where it is or how big of a tank it happens to be in.

Phone: my phone is analog, 24 volt, four wire, standard in the US since I was a kid. The digital signal comes into the house via cable, but is broken out in the box in the cellar (basement?), and wired to the telephone connector box. This goes back to the days when I had honest- to- goodness 24 volt analog signal coming from the telephone pole out front, and "Cable TV" ran parallel to the phone wires. So whatever signal may be coming down the coax in digital form is being analog'ed- up (converted to analog) and fed to the phone, actually the phone base (all handsets are cordless 6 MHz), just like in the olden' days.

Now it is possible there is a digital data signal overlayed on top of the analog signal of course. ?? Either way, there is a signal sneaking into the base unit telling it what time it is 'cause it keeps resetting itself in spite of the many (MANY) power outages. And no batteries in the base units. Besides, I have never set the time on this phone from when it was new so again, signal coming from somewhere.... possibly even blanket RF for all I know.

Brian

Nope gas used in the home for cooking or heating is just that , gas(or same as you n, natural gas.

Methane is something that comes out of the arse end of cows

Propane is typically used for camping and (a bit like a hoover) is quite often just referred to coas "calor gas" when in larger containers such as for caravan/campervan use.


In smaller bottles it tends to be referred to as "camping gaz"


Nope if its s VOIP its VOIP not analogue, the clues in the acronym, Voice Over Internet Protocol.

Of course your telco may be providing you with what is effectively a local PBX and its only VOIP from the basement out.

The giveaway usually is if the basestation/handset (as opposed to the NTE (Network Termination Equipment)  in the basement has an RJ45 ethernet cable too it.

If it has it's most definitely a VOIP handset and will (most likely) also be using POE (Power Over Ethernet) to run it. (IIRC POE is about 45V DC)

[mikeyw64]

Have you read the handbook for the phone

Well, your gas sounds like our gas.  Other than we call it propane no matter where it is or how big of a tank it happens to be in.

Phone: my phone is analog, 24 volt, four wire, standard in the US since I was a kid. The digital signal comes into the house via cable, but is broken out in the box in the cellar (basement?), and wired to the telephone connector box. This goes back to the days when I had honest- to- goodness 24 volt analog signal coming from the telephone pole out front, and "Cable TV" ran parallel to the phone wires. So whatever signal may be coming down the coax in digital form is being analog'ed- up (converted to analog) and fed to the phone, actually the phone base (all handsets are cordless 6 MHz), just like in the olden' days.

Now it is possible there is a digital data signal overlayed on top of the analog signal of course. ?? Either way, there is a signal sneaking into the base unit telling it what time it is 'cause it keeps resetting itself in spite of the many (MANY) power outages. And no batteries in the base units. Besides, I have never set the time on this phone from when it was new so again, signal coming from somewhere.... possibly even blanket RF for all I know.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

Parts of it but I did not notice that as a feature.  But the time / date thing just sort of happened, to my surprise, so I did not have any need to look up why it was happeneing.

I do have a window of time before a meeting right now though and will take a quick look.

Brian

Edited to add: took a look and nothing other than instructions on how to manually set the time / date. But an on- line search revealed that some Panasonic base units DO get the time from the timestamp buried in the caller ID function. Pretty tricky and slick IMO. A clever programmer's trick that appears to work extremely well, at least on my system.

And that answers the question as to how the information gets to the phone: whatever method caller ID is sent to the phone, analog or digital over an analog connection, the time / date stamp is part of that so is in the same format.

Have you read the handbook for the phone

[just gone]

Well this thread seems to have gone from nothing to Power grids, while it's here I have a question.

Do those cheap Chinese made LED Christmas light strings that blink on and off 30 times per second in the USA only blink on and off in the UK 25 times per second?. The reason I ask, is that at 30 times per second the flicker is noticeable to most as one moves your head or out of the side of your eye but not so much looking straight at the LED. I would think that at 50 cycles the flicker effect would be too noticeable and that the manufacturers would have to provide a bridge rectifier in the LED string. So I guess that is really my question(s), are the LED Christmas lights in the UK rectified or flickering?

[VirginiaJim]

A bit early for that question don't you think?

[mikeyw64]

I haven't actually counted but what I can tell you is that via a process known as REIN (Random Electrical Injected Noise) they mess up peoples DSL connections every year and that fault rates into ISPs always go up at the festive period because of this.


When the (UK) DSL standards were written there was a requirement that they couldn't cause interference to anything else(HAM radio operators were moaning at the time) however there was no requirement to shield them from outside interference.

Wonky microwaves, dodgy electric motors on fridges & freezers & electric fences are other well know sources of REIN

Well this thread seems to have gone from nothing to Power grids, while it's here I have a question.

Do those cheap Chinese made LED Christmas light strings that blink on and off 30 times per second in the USA only blink on and off in the UK 25 times per second?. The reason I ask, is that at 30 times per second the flicker is noticeable to most as one moves your head or out of the side of your eye but not so much looking straight at the LED. I would think that at 50 cycles the flicker effect would be too noticeable and that the manufacturers would have to provide a bridge rectifier in the LED string. So I guess that is really my question(s), are the LED Christmas lights in the UK rectified or flickering?

[just gone]

A bit early for that question don't you think?

Have you been to Home Depot or Lowes lately? The ones in my area have the trees up and lit, the inflatables are all fully erect.(Ez Boyz)
...regardless, yes a bit early, but I needed to ask before the thread went back to being about nothing at all....although I guess there isn't
much chance of that now that I think about it.

[VirginiaJim]

I'm thinking you're right..

[just gone]

I haven't actually counted but...

...Well, I didn't really expect the count..that would be automatic for 50 cycles at 25 on and offs, but I did want to know if they flickered like the ones we get do.
It doesn't seem like it would be that expensive to put a few diodes and a capaciter in there to make a rectifier so they didn't noticeably flicker, but I guess the competition to save a few dimes per string of lights is just too much.

.... what I can tell you is that via a process known as REIN (Random Electrical Injected Noise) they mess up peoples DSL connections every year and that fault rates into ISPs always go up at the festive period because of this.


When the (UK) DSL standards were written there was a requirement that they couldn't cause interference to anything else(HAM radio operators were moaning at the time) however there was no requirement to shield them from outside interference.

Wonky microwaves, dodgy electric motors on fridges & freezers & electric fences are other well know sources of REIN

I think DSL is dying out over here, and for that I'm glad. It was faster than dial up but not as reliable. Frequent outages for me on rainy days. Cable or fiber optics seem the way to go now.
I guess satellite is still viable if you are remotely off the grid, but I've never tried it.
 

[mikeyw64]

Over here DSL based technologies are still going strong largely due to the underlying infrastructures.

FTTC (Fibre to tThe Cabinet) is a VDSL implementation where only the last couple of hundred metres are copper, speeds are currently 80mbps downstream and 20mbps upstream although they are working on higher speeds

 

...Well, I didn't really expect the count..that would be automatic for 50 cycles at 25 on and offs, but I did want to know if they flickered like the ones we get do.
It doesn't seem like it would be that expensive to put a few diodes and a capaciter in there to make a rectifier so they didn't noticeably flicker, but I guess the competition to save a few dimes per string of lights is just too much.

I think DSL is dying out over here, and for that I'm glad. It was faster than dial up but not as reliable. Frequent outages for me on rainy days. Cable or fiber optics seem the way to go now.
I guess satellite is still viable if you are remotely off the grid, but I've never tried it.