Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: MrPepsi on July 12, 2018, 08:35:20 AM
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Hello fellow riders. I have a 2009, with 74,000 miles which is running perfectly. However it has been some time since I had the valves checked, and I have a big trip coming up so I wanted to double check the valves. I took it to the dealer, they checked the valves, changed the valve cover gasket and they also replaced the spark plugs while they were in there. All valves were within spec and the bike is still running perfect. On my way home from the dealer yesterday, the bike performed fine on the freeway, but once I was in the city in stop and go traffic, the temp gauge seemed to remain at the top of the scale, and the fan pretty much ran the entire time. It was quite hot when I started the ride, somewhere around 90, but by the time I got to the city, it was only around 62. I could smell antifreeze at each stoplight.
This morning I made sure to ride again, and the entire ride it was around 58-60 out. Freeway riding of course was normal, but at every stop once I got off the freeway, the temp would spike and the fan would run. Once moving on the city streets the gauge would go down two notches from the top. I could smell antifreeze not at every stop, but a few of the stops.
Could it be it's just time to flush the radiator? Could it be I need a new thermostat, does it have one? Is it likely this was somehow caused by the work done at the dealer? Seems unlikely, but the timing is too much of a hint. What am I not thinking of?
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Sounds like air in cooling system.
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It's not necessary to drain the coolant to perform a valve service. But some do, and they remove the radiator in order to get some extra "elbow" room so to speak. I suppose it's possible that an air bubble may have formed and the system needs to be purged. Did you check the overflow tank level? If that empties it's possible for the system to take up some air. The level should always be above the MIN line.
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Thanks guys, I'm thinking I may just do a flush.
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Hello fellow riders. I have a 2009, with 74,000 miles which is running perfectly. However it has been some time since I had the valves checked, and I have a big trip coming up so I wanted to double check the valves. I took it to the dealer, they checked the valves, changed the valve cover gasket and they also replaced the spark plugs while they were in there. All valves were within spec (and have been every time since new) and the bike is still running perfect. On my way home from the dealer yesterday, the bike performed fine on the freeway, but once I was in the city in stop and go traffic, the temp gauge seemed to remain at the top of the scale, and the fan pretty much ran the entire time. It was quite hot when I started the ride, somewhere around 90, but by the time I got to the city, it was only around 62. I could smell antifreeze at each stoplight.
The idea that this bike has gone 74,000 miles without even one of the 16 valves getting out of spec is impossible for me to believe. While I wish it were not the case, it's not at all unheard of for a dealer to simply pronounce your valves "OK" and hand you a bill without actually doing anything. You could be the 1:1,000,000 exception but that's unlikely.
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A little late but to bad you didn't have them do it while they had it undressed. When I did my valves I took the opportunity to remove and flush cooling system.
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A little late but to bad you didn't have them do it while they had it undressed. When I did my valves I took the opportunity to remove and flush cooling system.
Agreed.
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The idea that this bike has gone 74,000 miles without even one of the 16 valves getting out of spec is impossible for me to believe. While I wish it were not the case, it's not at all unheard of for a dealer to simply pronounce your valves "OK" and hand you a bill without actually doing anything. You could be the 1:1,000,000 exception but that's unlikely.
This is the first time this dealer has checked the valves, and I've had them checked by someone I trust very much three times prior to this. Also, I don't think I'm the only one who has had this result. While unlikely, I think your odds are way off.
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I bought my bike from this individual who got the valves checked by a local mechanic 6k miles prior. Talked to the mechanic who mentioned that he removed the radiator to do the valve job, which is normal. I realized the coolant overflow tank was empty upon initial inspection. Replacing the brake & clutch fluids a couple days later, I had to remove the left lower fairinguesque rubber thingy to bleed the clutch. Noticed lots of blue crud around one of the hoses which is where the coolant was leaking from. Tightening that hose clamp and topping off the coolant. Bike's fine now.
I would check the coolant overflow tank, if it's low, look for a leak around the radiator hoses.
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Perfect, I will do exactly that.
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This is the first time this dealer has checked the valves, and I've had them checked by someone I trust very much three times prior to this. Also, I don't think I'm the only one who has had this result. While unlikely, I think your odds are way off.
Slight topic shift, but were they out of spec any of the first three times? (To me, that sounds like checking 4 times in 74,000 miles is a lot).
My first response was going to be "air in the cooling system?" but others said it already. Checked the manual, and it doesn't call for removing the radiator for a valve check, but, as also said, perhaps they did this for some reason and let air in or coolant is low.
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It's not necessary to drain the coolant to perform a valve service. But some do, and they remove the radiator in order to get some extra "elbow" room so to speak. I suppose it's possible that an air bubble may have formed and the system needs to be purged. Did you check the overflow tank level? If that empties it's possible for the system to take up some air. The level should always be above the MIN line.
I don't recall the O/P saying he removed the radiator cap, and looked at the coolant level in the radiator... would have been my first step...
please elaborate about this so we all can understand, myself included.
I ask this, as this bikes cooling flow path, and parts, while possibly being able to have a bubble form if something was diconnected, would have said bubble purged thru the current designed systems hose from the w/p back up to below the sealing surface of the rad cap. This bike has an 'improved' system, with an actual 'purging hose', that pretty much expells trapped air, directly back up to the radiator top. Unlike the C10, which needed purging either / or from both the w/p bolt, or the bleeder on the thermo housing.
look closely at the cooling sytems diagram, in the FSM, and you will see what I mean.
only air that can 'remain' in the system, after starting and running, will reside at the top of the radiator, right below the cap, and topping that off, and filling the o/f bottle to it's 'fill line' will suffice to effect a full system... so, if the bike is NOT leaking coolant, it really can't suck air into the radiator from an empty reservoir bottle.
sounding to me, like during the valve adjust, the radiator was disconnected and tipped forward, and when reconnected, never refilled correctly, or had the clamps tightened up right.
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Generally speaking, I am not a fan (no pun intended) of coincidences like this one so I too would suspect something happened during the valve lash check.
There are two fans on the bike, and it is possible they simply forgot to plug one back in; such a condition would not create any errors and you would still hear the fan running but with 1/2 of the fan capacity, it might not be enough to keep the bike cool. It is absolutely the first, easiest thing to look at IMO.
Second is the coolant level, it should be quite stable in height around the MAX / MIN lines on the overflow bottle. If not, it sounds like the dealer should be responsible to fill the system as needed if they in any way altered / removed any part of the cooling system (as already mentioned, this is NOT needed for a valve lash check and/ or adjust).
Best of luck with this Brent and do let us know how it goes.
Brian
Hello fellow riders. I have a 2009, with 74,000 miles which is running perfectly. However it has been some time since I had the valves checked, and I have a big trip coming up so I wanted to double check the valves. I took it to the dealer, they checked the valves, changed the valve cover gasket and they also replaced the spark plugs while they were in there. All valves were within spec and the bike is still running perfect. On my way home from the dealer yesterday, the bike performed fine on the freeway, but once I was in the city in stop and go traffic, the temp gauge seemed to remain at the top of the scale, and the fan pretty much ran the entire time. It was quite hot when I started the ride, somewhere around 90, but by the time I got to the city, it was only around 62. I could smell antifreeze at each stoplight.
This morning I made sure to ride again, and the entire ride it was around 58-60 out. Freeway riding of course was normal, but at every stop once I got off the freeway, the temp would spike and the fan would run. Once moving on the city streets the gauge would go down two notches from the top. I could smell antifreeze not at every stop, but a few of the stops.
Could it be it's just time to flush the radiator? Could it be I need a new thermostat, does it have one? Is it likely this was somehow caused by the work done at the dealer? Seems unlikely, but the timing is too much of a hint. What am I not thinking of?
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I do not think that statement is correct Rich- the overflow or reservoir bottle is there to account for expansion / contraction of the radiator fluid. It does that by accepting the excess from the radiator when it is hot, and the liquid expands, but when the radiator and engine cool and the coolant again contracts, the coolant is drawn from the overflow bottle via the small hose at the top of the radiator. So if the overflow tank is empty while the system is hot, it absolutely will suck air from the overflow bottle as everything cools down.
Brian
<snip>
... so, if the bike is NOT leaking coolant, it really can't suck air into the radiator from an empty reservoir bottle.
sounding to me, like during the valve adjust, the radiator was disconnected and tipped forward, and when reconnected, never refilled correctly, or had the clamps tightened up right.
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On my ride home on Thursday, I had coolant leaking down the side of the bike and onto my boot. Of course I immediately called the dealer and he asked me to check if the overflow had liquid in it, which it did. He said it should be safe to ride back, but I still plan to check the radiator coolant level too. I won't be riding it until I ride it back to them on Wednesday. He said thank you for giving us the chance to make things right. I would hope if he takes everything apart, I would be willing to pay for new coolant and some compensation for labor for a flushing since it's time.
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Slight topic shift, but were they out of spec any of the first three times? (To me, that sounds like checking 4 times in 74,000 miles is a lot).
I checked my records and it is in fact only three total. Once at 16k, and another at 53k. Always in spec, but most don't believe me on that.
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I do not think that statement is correct Rich- the overflow or reservoir bottle is there to account for expansion / contraction of the radiator fluid. It does that by accepting the excess from the radiator when it is hot, and the liquid expands, but when the radiator and engine cool and the coolant again contracts, the coolant is drawn from the overflow bottle via the small hose at the top of the radiator. So if the overflow tank is empty while the system is hot, it absolutely will suck air from the overflow bottle as everything cools down.
Brian
mmmmm.....
we can agree to disagree...
if you go back, and read the full body of what i said, that you pulled the quote from, you will see the first thing I wrote beginning that post.
IF the radiator is completely full (right up to the neck, as it should be), AND IF there are no leaks allowing a loss of coolant from anywhere in the system, then it cannot occur, as any burped out coolant will flow to the bottle, and be returned to the radiator when the system cools..so a completely full radiator can't suck in air, when it's full of coolant... or am I wrong?
:rotflmao: :chugbeer: :_shudder_Emoticon
anyway, I think Brent has it covered now, and they can also check to see if they plugged both the fans in when they inspect... :D
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Both fans were running when I arrived at home yesterday.
A full radiator, brought up to temperature will as you say expel fluid as the temp climbs. Then could suck in air if there was a leak in the overflow bottle that would allow the excess to leak out and only leave air, as the radiator temp cools.
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Have you checked the overflow when the bike's level and cold yet?
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Not yet, but I will when I get home.
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Not sure we are on the same page. ??
Coolant expands when heated, and then contracts when again cooled. So a full radiator, with the coolant cold, absolutely will cause the coolant to expand when it is heated (the engine is running) and the pressure caused by this will force the radiator cap open (to the first stage on modern vehicles) and purge the [now] excess fluid. On all modern vehicles, there is an overflow bottle to catch this 'overflow' and hold it until the coolant in the engine and radiator again cool down (sometime after the bike is shut off). When the coolant cools and shrinks, it creates a vacuum and the radiator cap will again allow a 'leak' to the first stage, which is connected to the bottom of the overflow bottle, thereby drawing the original purged fluid back into the radiator.
I was merely responding to your statement "it really can't suck air into the radiator from an empty reservoir bottle." which is incorrect. If the coolant shrinks, creates a vacuum but there is no fluid in the overflow bottle (for whatever reason) then the cooling system cannot help but suck air into the top of the radiator. That is all I was responding to, the statement quoted above that you made in a previous post. If there were quantifiers in your post, I either did not see them or did / do not understand them. ??
Brian
mmmmm.....
we can agree to disagree...
if you go back, and read the full body of what i said, that you pulled the quote from, you will see the first thing I wrote beginning that post.
IF the radiator is completely full (right up to the neck, as it should be), AND IF there are no leaks allowing a loss of coolant from anywhere in the system, then it cannot occur, as any burped out coolant will flow to the bottle, and be returned to the radiator when the system cools..so a completely full radiator can't suck in air, when it's full of coolant... or am I wrong?
:rotflmao: :chugbeer: :_shudder_Emoticon
anyway, I think Brent has it covered now, and they can also check to see if they plugged both the fans in when they inspect... :D
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Yes, a leak and therefore an empty overflow bottle. The other potential problem, although you should not have this due to a valve lash check, would be that the hose that runs to the bottom of the overflow bottle fell off so the radiator ships fluid to the overflow bottle but sucks air from the top of the overflow bottle when the bike cools. The draw point needs to be at the bottom of the overflow tank.
Brian
Both fans were running when I arrived at home yesterday.
A full radiator, brought up to temperature will as you say expel fluid as the temp climbs. Then could suck in air if there was a leak in the overflow bottle that would allow the excess to leak out and only leave air, as the radiator temp cools.
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And BTW, even that should not cause the bike to run noticeably hotter IMO. The radiator will still be full when hot, and very nearly full when cold, and the vehicle will perform just fine that way as did a gazillion vehicles with water cooling made long before overflow tanks came into being. I believe you have a different problem, though of course that is just a guess....
Brian
Both fans were running when I arrived at home yesterday.
A full radiator, brought up to temperature will as you say expel fluid as the temp climbs. Then could suck in air if there was a leak in the overflow bottle that would allow the excess to leak out and only leave air, as the radiator temp cools.
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I checked my records and it is in fact only three total. Once at 16k, and another at 53k. Always in spec, but most don't believe me on that.
I am one who absolutely believes it is possible. :) I think we have had almost as many reports of "always in spec" as those needing adjustments. Usually it seems to be a first inspection is out of spec and adjusted and subsequent ones are in spec. But it also seems anything is possible (including some dealers lying about what work they are doing and/or saying something slightly out of spec is in spec).
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Not sure we are on the same page. ??
Coolant expands when heated, and then contracts when again cooled. So a full radiator, with the coolant cold, absolutely will cause the coolant to expand when it is heated (the engine is running) and the pressure caused by this will force the radiator cap open (to the first stage on modern vehicles) and purge the [now] excess fluid. On all modern vehicles, there is an overflow bottle to catch this 'overflow' and hold it until the coolant in the engine and radiator again cool down (sometime after the bike is shut off). When the coolant cools and shrinks, it creates a vacuum and the radiator cap will again allow a 'leak' to the first stage, which is connected to the bottom of the overflow bottle, thereby drawing the original purged fluid back into the radiator.
I was merely responding to your statement "it really can't suck air into the radiator from an empty reservoir bottle." which is incorrect. If the coolant shrinks, creates a vacuum but there is no fluid in the overflow bottle (for whatever reason) then the cooling system cannot help but suck air into the top of the radiator. That is all I was responding to, the statement quoted above that you made in a previous post. If there were quantifiers in your post, I either did not see them or did / do not understand them. ??
Brian
i don't know how to explain it simpler than I did...
FULL radiator... NO Leaks, EMPTY bottle....
coolant expands, flows to bottle..(radiator still full of liquid...expanded, but still full)
Bottle is now containing the coolant that was pushed there... the bottle has a return line at it's BOTTOM... coolant is retained,sitting over the return lines hole in the bottle, sealing it from external air, temporarily, in this bottle...(radiator is still full....), everything begins to cool, and the coolant in bottle gets sucked back to radiator neck (via a junction in the thermo housing), once again filling it completely full..with the now cooling rapidly, and contracting ( the opposite of expanding) juice.... if the radiator is FULL, it can't suck air in... just can't, as it is FULL.
Full make the radiator 'happy', and at that point, its done its job..
in truth, the catch bottle is a safety measure, only to prevent issues in the event of a "leakage, where fluid is dumped from the system, externally..." like a 'massive coolant dump into the bottle, from extreme overheat, where so much coolant is spewed that it dumps out the overflow of the bottle itself...
If a failure occurs in a hose, or other flow path, where coolant is lost 'externally', even having juice in the bottle really won't help in every instance..., because the system would try to suck air from that failed part, instead of the bottle... depending on the location and severity of the failure..
we have seen this firsthand, with the 'chewing gum' seal on the C10 thermostat housing split line.. coolant bottle has juice in it, but radiator is a cup or more low... and nobody can figure where the coolant went to...or why it didn't suck fluid from the bottle... because it puked out of that ring seal, and evaporated, and during the 'cooling vacuum stage' just sucked in air from the housing... till it all contracted, and re sealed... invisibly...
It was a dilemma that was pondered for 20 years on that bike, until Guy and I found it, and it was pondered profusely by both of us for quite a while, to close that issue.
from da book...
"The system is pressurized by the radiator cap to suppress boiling and the resultant air bubbles which can cause engine overheating. As the engine warms up, the coolant in the radiator and the water jacket expands. The excess coolant flows through the radiator cap and hose to the reserve tank to be stored there temporarily. Conversely, as the engine cools down, the coolant in the radiator and the water jacket contracts, and the stored coolant flows back to the radiator from the reserve tank.
The radiator cap has two valves. One is a pressure valve which holds the pressure in the system when the engine is running. When the pressure exceeds 93 ∼ 123 kPa (0.95 ∼ 1.25 kgf/cm², 13 ∼ 18 psi), the pressure valve opens and releases the pressure to the reserve tank. As soon as pressure escapes, the valve closes, and keeps the pressure at 93 ∼ 123 kPa (0.95 ∼ 1.25 kgf/cm², 13 ∼ 18 psi).
When the engine cools down, another small valve (vacuum valve) in the cap opens. As the coolant cools, the coolant contracts to form a vacuum in the system. The vacuum valve opens and allows the coolant from the reserve tank to enter the radiator."
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Bike is cold and there is still coolant in the bottle.
Looks like the overflow was from the radiator cap, but I could be wrong.
Maybe a pinched overflow hose?
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Bike is cold and there is still coolant in the bottle.
Looks like the overflow was from the radiator cap, but I could be wrong.
Maybe a pinched overflow hose?
was the radiator full, cold, and cap removed to verify?
just asking,
I can't comment on the overflow tube 'pinch', not having it in front of me, but during the 'overheat' you talked about, the pressure generated during the release of the radiator cap venting process, would easily forced liquid thru the hose, and into the tank; or worst case, if really clamped down, blown the hose right off the nipple.
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:popcorn: the mystery continues...
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Well, this is circular and I am not going around a third time.
Anyway, I do not believe this is Brent's problem so now I will wait for either the outright answer or more information from Brent.
Brian
i don't know how to explain it simpler than I did...
<snip>
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Is it still running hot. Usually with air in the cooling system it will eventually after a few cooling cycles bleed itself off. The danger being an air lock can cause overheating and a blown headgasket before the air is dissipated.
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I haven't ridden her, and she goes back to the dealer in the morning.
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Bike made it to the dealer fine this morning in mostly freeway traffic. Hovered between 3 and 4 bars on the temp scale, and I believe there is one more bar where the H is but I could be wrong. It was a good sign to see it piddle some coolant on the ground when I arrived which means there is still coolant in the radiator. Service manager should be calling me in about two hours. I hope to have him pay the labor to take the tupperware off, but I plan to pay for a radiator flush since it was due and it was my mistake not to request it while he was in there.
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Bike made it to the dealer fine this morning in mostly freeway traffic. Hovered between 3 and 4 bars on the temp scale, and I believe there is one more bar where the H is but I could be wrong. It was a good sign to see it piddle some coolant on the ground when I arrived which means there is still coolant in the radiator. Service manager should be calling me in about two hours. I hope to have him pay the labor to take the tupperware off, but I plan to pay for a radiator flush since it was due and it was my mistake not to request it while he was in there.
I would have discussed this all before leaving when you dropped the bike off... but...
you brought it in for service, and paid... it didn't leak prior....
now it leaks....
you had to RETURN again, to have them correct the problem they are responsible for originally... and likely had to enlist someone to pick you up at dropoff, then, again, travel back to pick up bike, with someone dropping you off again...
This is all time and money out of your pocket so far, and frankly a polite, but firm, discussion on this should have been a priority, so as you pay NOTHING, for their correction of the problem...before leaving it with them and awaiting a phone call; even if it was a simple loose hose clamp, that was leaking... they should give you the coolant flush and fill without charge, as an apology for their carelessness...
they have to pull plastic anyway, to make the correction, and completely inspect to make sure there wasn't more than one point of leakage...
Don't feel guilty for not telling them to flush and change coolant before, that's not
the cause of the leak, nor should you consider it reasonable to pay them because of that choice.
I wish you the best on the outcome tho, and if this dealership has any sense of self worth, they would swallow the cost for that coolant flush/fill.
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if this dealership has any sense of self worth
Now that's funny.. ;D
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Bike made it to the dealer fine this morning in mostly freeway traffic. Hovered between 3 and 4 bars on the temp scale, and I believe there is one more bar where the H is but I could be wrong. It was a good sign to see it piddle some coolant on the ground when I arrived which means there is still coolant in the radiator. Service manager should be calling me in about two hours. I hope to have him pay the labor to take the tupperware off, but I plan to pay for a radiator flush since it was due and it was my mistake not to request it while he was in there.
Were both fans running? I had a fan that was running but not at full speed. Both fans needed to be operating properly to keep temperature where it needs to be when stopping and slow speed operation. Highway speeds should maintain proper temps without having fans operating.
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Both fans are running normally. Turns out there was something on the radiator overflow tap that pierced the hose and caused a leak. They filed it down and replaced the hose.
I elected to have them do a flush while the bike was there and I pick it up this afternoon.
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I elected to have them do a flush while the bike was there and I pick it up this afternoon.
I am with MOB- you shouldn't have to pay anything, even with the flush/replace. But it is nice to know it is something simple.
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They are only charging me $75-80 for the flush so minimal labor and parts for something I should have asked them to do in the first place. Granted, they should have brought it up as well.
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Picking it up, they said it did not need a flush as they basically performed one when repairing the hose. No charge!
Contra Costa Powersports in Concord. Very happy customer.
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Picking it up, they said it did not need a flush as they basically performed one when repairing the hose. No charge!
Just the way it should be.
:)
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Bike performed flawlessly all the way home, even in 95 degree freeway riding.
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Now that's funny.. ;D
you can laugh, and snicker all you want... just note that the extended KPP plan deal I worked out, was thru a dealership I would not have to even question as to their dedication to customer service..
once you find someone like that, it changes your outlook, and other pale in the shadows, and can suck sea salt...
looks like Brent got fixed, but I don't know how you would puncture a pressure rated braided reinforced hose, in that location, without really working at it...
me thinks they didn't tighten a big hose clamp, when they moved the radiator forward during his valve adjust... I'd be pulling the overflow hose off myself, and looking at the point they say they 'filed off", sounds like b/s to me, but I'm just like that, and know the cover stories they weave...
all good, he's fixed, ride on... I had an exceptional ride today, and captured 2 ADV tags, so I'm stoked.
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I haven't had a good experience with dealerships. Ever. Any time I had to go to them, I got screwed. Just because the manufacturers give them "special powers", they lose all humanity. Unless you keep going to the same dealership and get all maintenance done there which is much more expensive than I'm willing to pay so they give me a break when I need something "special" done.
Glad Mr. Pepsi's bike is fixed. Ride on.
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me thinks they didn't tighten a big hose clamp, when they moved the radiator forward during his valve adjust... I'd be pulling the overflow hose off myself, and looking at the point they say they 'filed off", sounds like b/s to me, but I'm just like that, and know the cover stories they weave...
That's certainly possible, this is the same dealer that told me I needed to have my rotors replaced immediately or I risk my front brakes from "locking up" at speed while riding. Just glad they fixed the radiator issue for free.
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I know this is an old topic, but I had a very similar issue after a valve check.
After looking over the diagram for the coolant lines and feedback from good members here, I found out that they reversed the hose to the thermostat and the overflow tube. Topic is still there somewhere in this forum.