Linked Brakes Fixed

[RandyN]

If you look back at my first post in this thread you will see that is what I did. The feel of the brakes was even better than the way you have it now. The only problem with that setup is there is no ABS on the rear. I may go back to it to try it out again. Go ahead and scan through the posts and you will read that I then changed it to have the front left split to right and left front and the right output off of the ABS blocked. This was my second mod to the system.

If anyone else has done any of these types of mods please speak up. I'd like to hear your findings to compare to mine and others.

[double a-ron]

I did read that, I meant remove ALL brakes from the abs manifold, then directly connect front master to front brakes, rear master to rear brake. Then plug all lines at the manifold with bleeders. I'm just wondering what would happen ecu wise.

[RandyN]

I don't know what the ABS unit would do. My guess would be it wouldn't throw the error code on the screen but, the ABS motor would probably get fried after long term running with no fluid in it to provide any resistance to it. I don't think it would be worth the work. I do like having ABS on the front. Heck, I paid for it I might as well use it.

[double a-ron]

I was thinking I would leave fluid in the manifold. As far as paying for it, I feel like the system is a little low rent.

[RandyN]

Yes and a big yes to it being low rent. To leave the fluid in it you would need to put bleeder adapters on all the lines at the ABS block and I guess put all new replacement lines from master cylinders to calipers. Cheapest way would be get some old lines from a non ABS C-14 or Galfer lines. 

[maxtog]

I was thinking I would leave fluid in the manifold. As far as paying for it, I feel like the system is a little low rent.

"Low rent"?  I don't think most Concours owners will agree with that at all.  The ABS design is just fine and I doubt there is much better out there on other bikes of the same generation.

You might not like the linked brakes design, but that is not ABS.

[RandyN]

"Low rent"?  I don't think most Concours owners will agree with that at all.  The ABS design is just fine and I doubt there is much better out there on other bikes of the same generation.

You might not like the linked brakes design, but that is not ABS.

As it looks, the linked brakes are an integrated part of the ABS system and therefore can be considered all one system. The mere fact that myself and many others are discussing ways of modifying it and/or changing the link method of it are proof that there is something "low rent" about it. I've never felt the need to "fix" my Gold Wing or FJR.

I'm sorry if you take offense to calling it low rent but, it is less than perfect and could definitely be improved upon. I will say that they have great stopping power but, the feel is not right.

[maxtog]

As it looks, the linked brakes are an integrated part of the ABS system and therefore can be considered all one system. The mere fact that myself and many others are discussing ways of modifying it and/or changing the link method of it are proof that there is something "low rent" about it. I've never felt the need to "fix" my Gold Wing or FJR.

I'm sorry if you take offense to calling it low rent but, it is less than perfect and could definitely be improved upon. I will say that they have great stopping power but, the feel is not right.

Semantics.  It is not the ABS system, it is the linked brake system, which is a separate "feature" that just happens to use parts of the ABS.  It would be like complaining about a drive-by-wire system because you don't like the way the cruise control operates.

[RandyN]

Well, the discussion here has been how to separate the link from the ABS. I'm trying different modifications just hoping I get lucky. Maybe someone out there might have the answer on how to separate the two systems? What's the consensus? Kawasaki doesn't want to publicly acknowledge the problem even though they have to know about it.

[maxtog]

Maybe someone out there might have the answer on how to separate the two systems? What's the consensus? Kawasaki doesn't want to publicly acknowledge the problem even though they have to know about it.

Theoretically, the easiest way to solve the "problem" is with a software patch.  It would cost $0 and take little time and require no physical changes to the bike.  Unfortunately, that would require knowing how/where to place such a patch (and the equipment to do it).  And Kawasaki is not going to do it or tell anyone else how.  Such a shame, since Kawasaki already gave two "levels" of linking- all they had to do was listen to their customer base and add a third.... "off".

[pistole]

Theoretically, the easiest way to solve the "problem" is with a software patch.  It would cost $0 and take little time and require no physical changes to the bike.  Unfortunately, that would require knowing how/where to place such a patch (and the equipment to do it).  And Kawasaki is not going to do it or tell anyone else how.  Such a shame, since Kawasaki already gave two "levels" of linking- all they had to do was listen to their customer base and add a third.... "off".

- good post , and it got the brain cell working.

- since the linking is disabled at speeds below 12 mph (approx 20 kmh) , there should be a way to fool the linking system into thinking that its "always" below 12 mph.

- but .. here's the but ... i remember reading that at those low speeds , the ABS doesn't work either.

- in any event , I don't use the rear brake pedal. So , no issues for me and its got fantastic brakes.

.

[RandyN]

- good post , and it got the brain cell working.

- since the linking is disabled at speeds below 12 mph (approx 20 kmh) , there should be a way to fool the linking system into thinking that its "always" below 12 mph.

- but .. here's the but ... i remember reading that at those low speeds , the ABS doesn't work either.

- in any event , I don't use the rear brake pedal. So , no issues for me and its got fantastic brakes.

.

That's definitely something to investigate. Anybody listening?? I know the ABS does work below 12 mph because I have purposely taken the bike in sand at low speeds to test the ABS after having done a modification to the lines. It works all the way to a full stop. 

Just remembered that B.D.F. had made a modification that tricked the fuel system to stop displaying the warning message on LCD readout http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13852.0 . Maybe B.D.F. has the skills to figure it out. Give it a shot?

[maxtog]

- good post , and it got the brain cell working.

- since the linking is disabled at speeds below 12 mph (approx 20 kmh) , there should be a way to fool the linking system into thinking that its "always" below 12 mph.

I doubt that, since I suspect there is only a single speed sensor, which is connected to the ECU and used for LOTS of things.  I don't  think the ABS system is a separate computer.... but it might be.  And even if it is, the information could go over a bus and not a dedicated line.

- in any event , I don't use the rear brake pedal. So , no issues for me and its got fantastic brakes.

Yeah, I don't use the rear either, so have no problem with the whole thing.  But I can understand why some people are upset.

[Conniesaki]

Somebody needs to find out where in the software the 12 in the '12 mph threshold' is ... and change it to 112. Or 99 if it can only hold a 2-digit number.

[PlaynInPeoria]

I talked to Guhl about it via email when I was asking about the reflash. He said it's not in the main ECU. My fix works well but when I lock the rear in gravel, the wheel speed sensor on the rear notices it and I can feel the front brake lever pulse.  There are downsides to the fix I have employed but for me, the added pleasure I get from sport riding the bike makes up for it many times over. Now, instead of the bike fighting me by randomly changing attitude, I control the dynamics of the bike like I always have. To say the difference is night and day is an understatement.

As far as 'somebody finding it in the system', there are 2 candidates:  Guhl, as he can obviously reflash, but if it's not cost effective for him, it probably won't happen. The 2nd candidate is more likely and that's B.D.F, as he must be an EE and has obviously figured out what goes out on the communication bus of this well enough to disable the annoying low fuel warning. I just bought and installed this, it was about a 5 minute install.

[maxtog]

The 2nd candidate is more likely and that's B.D.F, as he must be an EE and has obviously figured out what goes out on the communication bus of this well enough to disable the annoying low fuel warning.

But he only has one of those old gen 1 models...  so he will have no motivation and no test machine.

[PlaynInPeoria]

But he only has one of those old gen 1 models...  so he will have no motivation and no test machine.

The Many Doh's of Homer Simpson

[gPink]

There's also a liability issue I think. Nothing Brian has done with the fuel or kipass systems or what Guhl has done in the ecu reflash is directly related to a DOT regulated safety componet. Altering or defeating the abs system might leave one's posterior hanging in the wind.

[B.D.F.]

Yep, that is absolutely true. Even beyond legal liability, there is the moral question we all have to ask ourselves: do I want to be the one who did that to someone else's bike? I would be wary of modifying the braking system of any motorcycle for anyone else but what my real problem would be is that now there is a modified bike out there 'on the loose'. Someone would sooner or later buy the motorcycle thinking it had XXXX as an on-board system without ever knowing it had been disengaged. I have had experiences in industry where someone (obviously in a superior position) wanted something that I just thought was too risky and would not install / code / execute such a thing.

I even had to sit down and think about it before I wrote the original overview on a Rostra installation: what if someone tried this, made a mistake and got hurt / killed- how much responsibility do I bear for that? In the end I did publish obviously but I tried my best to put make it clear to anyone reading it that there was a risk and that the installation was up to the installer in the end.

I also believe it would take an extraordinary amount of effort to develop a work- around for such an integral system as ABS and / or Linked brakes. That of course would make it ridiculously expensive to sell and so it isn't really marketable.

But the information on what can be done is out there for everyone to read and execute as they desire. The linked brakes can be defeated <relatively> easily apparently modifying nothing but the hydraulics and even then only changing what amounts to plumbing.

And as was mentioned, I have one o' dem old- fangled Gen. 1's so no linked brakes or ABS for me.

Brian

There's also a liability issue I think. Nothing Brian has done with the fuel or kipass systems or what Guhl has done in the ecu reflash is directly related to a DOT regulated safety componet. Altering or defeating the abs system might leave one's posterior hanging in the wind.

[just gone]

Reading the following in the owner manual:

When the K-ACT ABS indicator light
is blinking, the K-ACT ABS has been
in the low voltage mode (the battery
voltage decreases). When it is in the
low voltage mode, the K-ACT system
does not function, but the ABS func-
tions. The ignition switch is turned
off to recover the K-ACT system. At
this time, the battery must be in the
normal condition.

Makes me think that an electronic savvy person could make a regulated electronic power supply that would have a fixed output (variable by a set and forget control during installation) regardless of what the battery/alternator input voltage was, that would always put out a low enough voltage so that the bike goes into the ABS only (aka low voltage mode) and thus one would be able to turn off or on(by electrically bypassing the low voltage power supply) the linked brakes electrically and still have functional ABS on both wheels. Seems feasible if it could be determined what voltage input the ECU used to make the decision.  ECU power in pin 35?; Battery monitor pin 45?(<---I think this would be best if it worked); Power to ECU pin 44? I guess this would make the ABS light blink when it was engaged and perhaps have an inaccurate Battery voltage displayed on the LCD screen, but oh well, can't always have your cake and eat it too.

I'm just thinking out loud here, hoping that those smarter than me will pick up the ball and run with it, or perhaps make some
enjoyable jokes at my expense.