Issues bleeding the clutch

[Eupher]

Am reading this thread with a measure of trepidation, but I think -- thanks to you who have commented -- I'll be prepared for this puppy.

I ordered the HF part no. 92924. There is a different model, different part number, but it's sold in the store only. As I live 2 hours from the nearest HF, hey, I'll take my chances with this guy.

https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html

I've got two small compressors, one of which is a 5 gal. pancake style. And the requisite hose and fittings. (Can't remember the last time I used it, so it's probably time to dust it off.)

[just gone]

Successfully bled my brake fluid using a mityvac, even though I did empty the reservoir once and had to do the top bleed as well.

However after reading this thread, I'm actually thinking of just removing the dirty fluid from the clutch top reservoir and replacing it without a full system bleed.
 Perhaps empty it half way, add more fluid then just remove as much dirt and old fluid as I can without letting it get too low.

I never did do this. ↑

Happenstance provided another avenue to solve this problem.
I managed to break a tooth off of 4th gear and when the dealer repaired it under warranty the the clutch fluid was drained and refilled in the repair.
 I don't recommend this approach but it did work for me. 

[B.D.F.]

Just saw Marty reactivated this old thread and wanted to comment on this post:

The hydraulic systems on the C-14 are not very hard to work with and are not tricky. And if one is really wary, the master cylinder reservoirs could be drained, cleaned out and as long as the bottom of the reservoir was not allowed so such any air, the system could be bled manually.... worst case scenario is that it would not bleed but it would still work.

But in the end, the price of air compressors has dropped quite a bit and brake vacuum systems are really pretty cheap, so a one- time investment and a person can bleed / fix/ replace brake pads and so forth forever. And just to make sure I put this clearly: with a vacuum system to do the bleeding of the systems, they are effortless to do and it always works. Even with a totally dry system, it is easy to re-fill and fully bleed these systems. No need to be wary. The only thing I have found is that it takes more brake fluid to clean these systems out than I would have thought but even that is not awful or anything to fear, and by 'more' I do not mean a ridiculous amount; the smallest brake fluid container is normally enough to do both brake systems and the clutch on a C-14.

Brian

Am reading this thread with a measure of trepidation, but I think -- thanks to you who have commented -- I'll be prepared for this puppy.

I ordered the HF part no. 92924. There is a different model, different part number, but it's sold in the store only. As I live 2 hours from the nearest HF, hey, I'll take my chances with this guy.

https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html

I've got two small compressors, one of which is a 5 gal. pancake style. And the requisite hose and fittings. (Can't remember the last time I used it, so it's probably time to dust it off.)

[smokin]

Easiest way to bleed the clutch and brakes is fit Speed Bleeders from Murphs, https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_157&products_id=419
I found.

[Cold Streak]

Here is my experience.  I've replaced the fluid in my clutch and brake systems every two years on my 08 which now has 73K miles.  This past spring I went on a ride and noticed the clutch had excess play when the bike got warm.  I bled the clutch again and all was fine for a little while when just riding down the highway the clutch lever went all the way to the grip with no resistance.  I stopped and after about an hour it was fine again.  I went home and bled it again with some air in the fluid.  This happened a couple of times with no one able to explain it.  I finally went to the local Kawi dealer to buy a rebuild kit for the master cylinder.  I talked to their mechanic and he said I needed a new clutch hose.  He's seen the same symptoms on a few Connies with some age and many miles.  The hose gets warm and bad things happen.  So I bought a new hose and a master cylinder rebuild kit since I had it apart anyway.  I've yet to install the parts to test it out.  Been busy and I have a second bike so what's the rush?   

I was going to wait until after I replaced all the components and tested it before posting but I'll let you know in a week or so what I find. 

[B.D.F.]

I have had that identical set of symptoms on my own '08. The difference is that I have not replaced any parts, and a power bleed has cured it every single time.

A wise man once said, these bikes are a bi!ch to bleed without a power bleeder.

:-)

Brian

Here is my experience.  I've replaced the fluid in my clutch and brake systems every two years on my 08 which now has 73K miles.  This past spring I went on a ride and noticed the clutch had excess play when the bike got warm.  I bled the clutch again and all was fine for a little while when just riding down the highway the clutch lever went all the way to the grip with no resistance.  I stopped and after about an hour it was fine again.  I went home and bled it again with some air in the fluid.  This happened a couple of times with no one able to explain it.  I finally went to the local Kawi dealer to buy a rebuild kit for the master cylinder.  I talked to their mechanic and he said I needed a new clutch hose.  He's seen the same symptoms on a few Connies with some age and many miles.  The hose gets warm and bad things happen.  So I bought a new hose and a master cylinder rebuild kit since I had it apart anyway.  I've yet to install the parts to test it out.  Been busy and I have a second bike so what's the rush?   

I was going to wait until after I replaced all the components and tested it before posting but I'll let you know in a week or so what I find.

[Cold Streak]

I did use a power bleeder but it didn't cure the symptoms.  It was a friends homemade power bleeder but still pulled a vacuum.  Anyway, I have a compressed air power bleeder now.  The fact that the technician had the same symptoms on multiple bikes tells me that I and he are on the right track.  It could be my hose (easy guys, to borrow a phrase) is in worse shape than yours due to riding factors.  I've spent a lot of time in stop and go traffic during my 73,000 miles which might cause more heat related issues with the hose. 

All I can say is after spending $130 for the hose and another $50 for the master rebuild kit, it better cure the problem. 

Another observation is that I should have been lubing the pivot pin on the clutch grip.  It was in bad shape with some corrosion and completely dry.  After some cleanup with scotch brite and some lube I hope it works better going forward.  I think they should include a new pin in with the master rebuild kit.

[B.D.F.]

Last thing first: the pivot pins in all the C-14's I have removed them from have been in tough shape: all dry,  and some (most) corroded to varying degrees. Cleaning and lubing them makes such a difference, the riders usually 'bark' the brakes the next couple of times. At first I though Kawasaki was assembling the pivots dry but now believe they are using some type of dry lube. My advise it to lube them as soon as practical.... like the night you bring a new bike home. :-)  Once lubed, I find all wear stops and they last forever, or at least 10 years and six digits of miles.

Bleeding: not throwing rocks at you and not trying to say your brake components are not bad. Just pointing out that this situation is often the result of a little air left in the system after bleeding. In addition to power bleeding, I have found bleeding them three times after I would normally claim I was finished ended the problem of the magic clutch engagement point depending on engine temp.

So, if you have power bled the system, and done a thorough (read: done it three times all in one go), then yep, I too would look for something seeping in the system. I did have a bad clutch slave cylinder early on with my C-14 and it was replace under warranty. And I believe that too was shipping air into the system rather than leaking fluid out of it.

Again, no criticism or knock against you, your post or your situation. Merely throwing out the fact that I have seen this before and it often pays to bleed a system two more times to see if that cures the problem

Best of luck with your bike but it sounds like you have things well in hand with the path you are taking.

Brian

I did use a power bleeder but it didn't cure the symptoms.  It was a friends homemade power bleeder but still pulled a vacuum.  Anyway, I have a compressed air power bleeder now.  The fact that the technician had the same symptoms on multiple bikes tells me that I and he are on the right track.  It could be my hose (easy guys, to borrow a phrase) is in worse shape than yours due to riding factors.  I've spent a lot of time in stop and go traffic during my 73,000 miles which might cause more heat related issues with the hose. 

All I can say is after spending $130 for the hose and another $50 for the master rebuild kit, it better cure the problem. 

Another observation is that I should have been lubing the pivot pin on the clutch grip.  It was in bad shape with some corrosion and completely dry.  After some cleanup with scotch brite and some lube I hope it works better going forward.  I think they should include a new pin in with the master rebuild kit.

[Cold Streak]

Best of luck with your bike but it sounds like you have things well in hand with the path you are taking.

We shall see.  Thanks for all your advice along the way here. 

[deepseamdv]

Old BBQ propane tank, a couple of valves, a vacuum generator and a pressure/vacuum gauge. All from McmasterCarr. Weld in three threaded bosses for the valves and gauge. You now have a $300 professional vacuum bleeder for less than $50 bucks.Oh, and an air nipple to pressurize the tank so you can empty it.

[jerdurr]

When the master, calipers and brake line were changed on my other bike, bleeding them out was very difficult. Someone on another forum recommended that I hook small hoses up to the bleeders and raise them up to an elevated bucket. By doing this, I was able to work the micro bubbles out and not have to worry about opening/closing the bleeder 10,000 times. It worked like a charm.

Had the exact same bike... miss it every day. And those flames on the tank make it go super fast! In all seriousness, I  love the VMAX!

[rcannon409]

I don't know why this topic jumped to the top of my display, but it did.

One thing that helped me, in bleeding the clutch, is to adjust the clutch lever so the span between it, and the grip, was at 100%. Once I did that, the motion the master cylinder saw was larger, and the air bubles were released, no problem.

Someone probably knows this answer, too.  I have the low end , mityvac bleeder.  The plastic one.  I typically just use it on the cars.  Rarely on the bike.

But, when I do, it's a real pos.  I fight the handle falling off, and it will corrode if left for more than a week, or two.

Is the metal mityvac better, Or is there another brand I should be looking at?

[VirginiaJim]

I'll have to try the lever thing...

[B.D.F.]

In my own experience, having tried three different hand- operated bleeder pumps on a C-14, I would suggest going with an automatic bleeder that is powered by compressed air. Turns a PITA to impossible job into one that is effortless and works perfectly, every single time. Of course you will need an air compressor but the bleeders themselves are fairly cheap, with a Harbor Freight model for around $35. I have no experience with this thing but all a powered bleeder really is is a vacuum aspirator (fancy term for two tubes attached at 90 degrees really) and some fittings.

Just as an example: https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html

My metal hand pump is selectable to produce either vacuum or pressure with the flip of a lever, and it is lousy both ways. A big part of the problem I find is that the bleeders leak enough to consume a LOT of a hand pump's pumping action and there is not much left over to do the actual bleeding. This is exactly where a power bleeder comes in so handy- it just keeps on pulling a vacuum, providing more than enough flow to keep up with the bleeder leaks AND still actually bleed the hydraulics.

Best of luck with whatever you get though.

Brian

I don't know why this topic jumped to the top of my display, but it did.

One thing that helped me, in bleeding the clutch, is to adjust the clutch lever so the span between it, and the grip, was at 100%. Once I did that, the motion the master cylinder saw was larger, and the air bubles were released, no problem.

Someone probably knows this answer, too.  I have the low end , mityvac bleeder.  The plastic one.  I typically just use it on the cars.  Rarely on the bike.

But, when I do, it's a real pos.  I fight the handle falling off, and it will corrode if left for more than a week, or two.

Is the metal mityvac better, Or is there another brand I should be looking at?

[rcannon409]

Thank you BDF.  I have a home compressor.  Its small (3hp). Its also old enough (late 80s) that it says, "Made in America" on it. 

It has to be a better option than the mity vac.  Like you say, once you factor in the leaks, I think I can pee more brake fluid than the might vac will move. Im also tired of dealing with its handle.

The handle issue is just a symptom.  The real problem is trying to hurry so as to not lose the vacuum thats there...and yes, its just  a flawed system.

[B.D.F.]

I have and really like a Mity Vac vacuum system (powered by compressed air) but they are a bit expensive at around $90 or so. That is the only reason I mentioned the one from Harbor Freight, which as I said, I have absolutely no experience with. But as long as it works at all, and there are no huge flaws such as stripped threads on a fitting or similar, it should work fine. It is just such a simple device.

Truth be told, one can be made at home using any kind of jar, some hosing and a soldered together 'aspirator', or a real store- bought aspirator, for a few bucks. But the H.F. unit is so cheap I really doubt it is worth making one.

The other thing that works well is to bleed the system with pressure forced into the master cylinder. I have done this with great success but it is risky enough that I never recommend it; I use a tapered rubber adapter and jam it into the drain hole (Easy Boys!) in the reservoir and then just apply brake fluid under pressure. The problem with this is that if the adapter slips out (Boys!) or the hose disconnects from the adapter, the pressure will spray brake fluid everywhere that that stuff is nasty. Hell, in a garage, it would end up all over everything such as the tractor, snow blower, etc,. etc.. So while it actually works very well, it is just too risky and I do not want to be the guy who got anyone else in that mess.

Brian

Thank you BDF.  I have a home compressor.  Its small (3hp). Its also old enough (late 80s) that it says, "Made in America" on it. 

It has to be a better option than the mity vac.  Like you say, once you factor in the leaks, I think I can pee more brake fluid than the might vac will move. Im also tired of dealing with its handle.

The handle issue is just a symptom.  The real problem is trying to hurry so as to not lose the vacuum thats there...and yes, its just  a flawed system.

[rcannon409]

90.00 does sound like a lot, but I'll save way more than that by using it on the car, once.

I appreciate the advise and I ordered one this morning. I bought the Mity Vac mv 6830. The ebay price was 122.00. Extremely cheap if it avoids having to replace an abs pump, or other component.  Plus, its goign to be faster and easier to work with. I can do this, yearly, if I want to .

Probably overkill, for the motorcycles. The concours 14 clutch is the only one ive ever fought with.. This might nice for that...we'll see.

A friend on the ninja 1000 forum had his abs pump go bad on his 2012 ninja 1000 abs.  Kawasaki warrantied the pump, despite his bike being way out of warranty.

Ive been much more aware of aged brake fluid since I saw the price of his pump would have been 1200.00. No one mentioned old brake fluid as being his cause/issue, but its all we have control over.

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, I think I was a little low on my price guess. And that is the exact model that I have and it works wonderfully.

I do not know if it will save anyone's ABS pump but I think it will encourage anyone / everyone with access to one of those to do a job that most of us just do not do often enough; replace the brake fluid in the hydraulics of vehicles, especially motorcycles. And every one of us measures our own greed as well as value but to me, that powered bleeder is simply a fantastically good tool in that it takes a PITA job, one that is often just impossible to get 100% right (soft, squishy clutches and often, brakes) and makes it truly fast and easy. Really, really, easy.

I try never to spend other people's money and so try to be careful what I suggest anyone / everyone should do or buy but honestly, I really doubt you will mind having spent the money the very first time you use that thing. At least I hope so.

One other piece of free advise (maybe worth exactly what you paid for it): when you are all done fully cleaning and bleeding the hydraulics on each part of the C-14..... do it two more times. Seriously, the air is just a cast- iron- bi!ch to get out of this bike and those last few tiny air bubbles will really impact the feel of the hydraulics. The clutch will be far more consistent going from cold to hot, and the brakes will just be so much crisper when the system is fully bled, which I have found takes a lot more brake fluid that I would have thought.

And using a powered brake- bleeder makes it very, very easy NOT to spill any brake fluid on the plastics or painted parts of the bike- a real plus IMO 'cause no one likes the results of brake fluid on paint or plastics. On local Tech. day, I bleed a bunch of C-14's and honestly, I would not do that on other people's bikes w/out that power bleeder because I think I would be doing a 'less than great' job of it, and frankly I would be a bit too nervous about spattering brake fluid on someone else's bike.

Brian

90.00 does sound like a lot, but I'll save way more than that by using it on the car, once.

I appreciate the advise and I ordered one this morning. I bought the Mity Vac mv 6830. The ebay price was 122.00. Extremely cheap if it avoids having to replace an abs pump, or other component.  Plus, its goign to be faster and easier to work with. I can do this, yearly, if I want to .

Probably overkill, for the motorcycles. The concours 14 clutch is the only one ive ever fought with.. This might nice for that...we'll see.

A friend on the ninja 1000 forum had his abs pump go bad on his 2012 ninja 1000 abs.  Kawasaki warrantied the pump, despite his bike being way out of warranty.

Ive been much more aware of aged brake fluid since I saw the price of his pump would have been 1200.00. No one mentioned old brake fluid as being his cause/issue, but its all we have control over.

[kzz1king]

The HF tool has decent reviews. I may give it a go as I wont use it a lot.

Are bleeder valves leaking around the threads less of an issue with a pump?

Wayne

[B.D.F.]

Yes, the bleeders leaking are not an issue with a power bleeder because it will pull hard enough to keep up with the bleeder leak and also maintain a pull on the hydraulics themselves. This is the fatal flaw I have found with all hand pumped type bleeders; at the end of the piston stroke, the vacuum stops and that is when air appears to get into the end of the actual hydraulic system. Because power bleeders are continuous, that situation never happens. So while using a power bleeder there usually is a small stream of air bubbles in  the drain line but that is coming from the threads around the bleeder and does not have any impact on the brake or clutch system itself.

Brian

The HF tool has decent reviews. I may give it a go as I wont use it a lot.

Are bleeder valves leaking around the threads less of an issue with a pump?

Wayne