Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: mikeyw64 on February 20, 2017, 02:24:17 PM
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Ok just couldn't resist tinkering (and I will accept that the GTRs stock headlights are one of the best OEM fitments I've come across) however I haven't gone down the HID install route I murmured about previously.
Instead after doing some research on the different types of H4 LED options available I opted for a set of Lumiled fitted ones. Mine came from here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182229706561?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)and admittedly weren't cheap.(both more expensive & cheaper options were available)
The packaging does however smack of a quality product (& yes they will be Chinese sourced) and the instructions are in reasonably clear Chinglish (although the seller had added their own sheet of A4 with notes around the filament positioning.
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/boxed.jpg)
What I like about this style is when you compare them to a standard H4 Halogen bulb, the positioning of the leds lines up nicely as does the inclusion of the shield for the dipped section. In theory this should put the hot spot in the right place in the reflector.
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/compare.jpg)
Furthermore the inner section is secured by 2 screws and can be angled. The instructions say to position 6 for LHD and position 8 for RHD. This tilts the shielded section slightly, position 7 would be a neutral position similar to the Halogen unit
Note please refer to Maxtogs findings (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22202.msg276456#msg276456) on his US bike, it may be preferable to leave it at 7
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/marks.jpg)
WHat is also nice is that the heat sink is removable which allows the OEM rubber boot to be slid back over before refitting the heat sink
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/rubber.jpg)
Initial impressions are that the light spread is identical to the standard Halogen unit although I will be calling in at my friendly testing station tomorrow and just checking it on their beam tester.
Will also take some pics as my phone can't handle the bright light at night although it does look nice and white especially as I have LDs in the DRL/Indicators and also the city lights.
One final thing, it's really nice to have a bike where (with minimal plastic removal) you don't have to be a gynecologist to replace the bulbs, even in poor light :clap:
EDIT:
Beam Pattern Pics added
The scene
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt01.jpg)
Dip/Lo
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt02.jpg)
Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt03.jpg)
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FYI the install is very straightforward:
1) Raise screen and remove both inner panels
2) Remove existing bulbs (plug off, rubber boot off, undo clip)
3) Unscrew Heatsink
4) Fit LED Bulb securing with clip as per Halogen fitment
5) Slide rubber boot over fly lead and over back part of bulb
6) Screw the heatsink back on
7) Connect the driver unit to the fly lead
8) Secure the driver unit (I used zip ties to the mirror/frame brackets
9) Test
10) Refit plastics
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In the interests of the group I just took the bike for a 10 mile spin to get milk from the garage which is a 3 minute walk from my house.
The beam pattern looks pretty much identical to standard with no scatter and also I didnt get any oncoming vehicles flashing me or people in front slapping on the fog lights (ie the traditional indications you've annoyed someone)
The light is just brighter & whiter and out on some unlit country roads it was almost like driving in daylight. I've seen some conversions where you lose some of the foreground light but that isn't the case here
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Thanks for the info and photos!! Those are similar to the type of units I am eyeing to replace my HID system at some point (because they scatter too much, vibrate a bit too much, I have trouble with the ballast mountings, and they are getting old).
My feedback:
* Those are marked "Lumileds"
* VERY impressed that they are FANLESS. This means no fan to fail or worry about, and no noise! Seems like fans are finally on the way out. That was a deal-breaker with previous models out there.
* Unlike the others I have seen, the tilt option is something different and useful that I like a lot.
* Those are not that expensive. $87 is quite reasonable.
* NOT impressed with the color temp. 6500K doesn't have a factory look (4300K - 5000K would be better) but that is what sells (people WANT to advertise it is a mod). That would be a problem for me.
* Are they double sided? I assume so, but the photos don't show.
Would be interesting to see a comparable product on USA Ebay/Amazon. These seem to be VERY similar, although without the tilt/rotation option, on Ebay for $100:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Philips-H4-160W-High-Power-6000K-LED-Conversion-Kit-For-Headlight-16000LM-/152223846937 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Philips-H4-160W-High-Power-6000K-LED-Conversion-Kit-For-Headlight-16000LM-/152223846937)
And similar again, but on Amazon and considerably less at $75:
https://www.amazon.com/CloudWorks-Headlight-000Lumens-Philips-Technology/dp/B01IX0B6AQ (https://www.amazon.com/CloudWorks-Headlight-000Lumens-Philips-Technology/dp/B01IX0B6AQ)
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Thhe listing states 6000 to 6500k, the box says 6000k.
I do accept that's not to everyones taste but I have 6k LEDs as DRL & City light so like the uniform crisp white look.
Note they are also 80w
Yes they are double sided, total of 16 chips. Marked Lumiled but are they ? I can't honestly say but I do like the results
The first ones you listed look to be identical (there is a small section in there about rotating to LHD or RHD position)
Something I didn't mention which is a nice touch, they have put heatsink paste (similar to that used for computer processors) on the threads of the heatsink
For reference these appear to be the same items direct from the Chinese suppliers
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hottest-4000lm-H4-H13-H15-9004_782513201.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.9Wkp53&s=p (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hottest-4000lm-H4-H13-H15-9004_782513201.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.9Wkp53&s=p)
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Couple of piccys from a quiet country road, they are much better IRL
DIP
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/dip_c.jpg)
MAIN
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/main_c.jpg)
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Thhe listing states 6000 to 6500k, the box says 6000k. I do accept that's not to everyones taste but I have 6k LEDs as DRL & City light so like the uniform crisp white look.
My issue is just one of not wanting to attract unnecessary negative attention or looking aftermarket. Since HID was introduced, the aftermarket went crazy with bluer and bluer and bluer bulbs. Rather than "upgrading" to something that looks like a modern OEM and performs well, people just wanted to stand out. It is like "if low profile tires are on higher-performance cars, then I should put super, super, super, super low profile tires on", and they handle like s***; or "if higher performance cars have larger mufflers, then I would put one on my tiny 4 cylinder that is twice as large", and it sounds stupid and cuts performance (here we call this phenomenon "rice" or "ricers"). Same thing with the lights- anything beyond 5000K is actually DIMMER and less effective. But it seems that ALL the LED aftermarket bulbs are now settling on around 6000K, so there might not be any choice.
Note they are also 80w
I would have to throw a meter on there to be sure about that. I have seen all kinds of crazy wattage claims about LED bulbs and went through that with marker lights. Even the alibaba listing says 35W and not 40W, then promptly says 25W further down the page. My conclusion is that it is usually about half what the claims are. I believe 80W of quality LED power consumption is equivalent to maybe around 700 watts of incandescent/halogen light, or 1,400 watts per pair... doesn't seem quite right, does it? Crazy stuff.
Yes they are double sided, total of 16 chips. Marked Lumiled but are they ? I can't honestly say but I do like the results
I figured it would have to be, but just wanted to be sure. I mentioned the "Lumiled" because it seems to be a key word that ends up on the brands being resold.
The first ones you listed look to be identical (there is a small section in there about rotating to LHD or RHD position)
Thanks, I missed that. Funny that the listing doesn't highlight or elaborate that major feature or show a photo that reveals it. So I now wonder if the Amazon listing is the same.
Something I didn't mention which is a nice touch, they have put heatsink paste (similar to that used for computer processors) on the threads of the heatsink
A passive heat sink is not going to be as effective as an active one... and if it is removable, it really has to have thermal paste to make sure the heat is conducted. If they didn't include it and mention its use is required, I would have seriously questioned the validity of the design.
For reference these appear to be the same items direct from the Chinese suppliers
LOL- My friend is all about alibaba :) Just about everything is made in China... it is crazy how you can find the source on Alibaba and then see the exact same thing sold under a dozen other "brands" (sometimes even well-known names). BTW- LOTS of good info on that page. Thanks for that link.
DIP
DIP vs. Main? Not familiar with that terminology. Is that High beams vs. low beams?
Do let us know about your experience at the testing station. Quite curious. Oh, I also meant to add that I know my HID produces a lot of annoying scatter, but I only get "flashed" maybe a few times a year... so not being flashed on a 10 min ride (or a whatever single length ride) probably doesn't mean much. But maybe across the pond they are more aggressive at such things?
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Dip - Main
Hi -Lo
Same horse different jockey 8)
Hmm these are the "proper" Philips units
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Pair-Philips-H4-6200K-X-treme-Ultinon-LED-High-Low-Beam-Headlight-Lamp-/252682547636?_trksid=p2349526.m2548.l4275 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Pair-Philips-H4-6200K-X-treme-Ultinon-LED-High-Low-Beam-Headlight-Lamp-/252682547636?_trksid=p2349526.m2548.l4275)
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Hmm these are the "proper" Philips units
Yep, ran across them a few times during research. $366, now THAT is expensive :) Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/H4-Philips-12953BWX2-LED-Bulbs/dp/B013DHXKK8 (https://www.amazon.com/H4-Philips-12953BWX2-LED-Bulbs/dp/B013DHXKK8)
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Very interesting and glad to see some are making huge gains in retrofit LED lighting. The originals were 'light sticks' with LEDs on three sides blowing light everywhere.
The rotating LED mount is very clever too as it allows the same hardware to be used in RHD and LHD countries, as well as just going for a flat cut- off which is very close to what high- end Japanese HID projectors generally shoot for.
If you can, it would be great to see a light projection photo against a light colored wall or similar. From about 25 feet and with the bike on the centerstand usually shows the pattern very clearly.
Thanks for taking the time to make the posts including the excellent photos.
Brian
Ok just couldn't resist tinkering (and I will accept that the GTRs stock headlights are one of the best OEM fitments I've come across) however I haven't gone down the HID install route I murmured about previously.
Instead after doing some research on the different types of H4 LED options available I opted for a set of Lumiled fitted ones. Mine came from here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182229706561?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)and admittedly weren't cheap.(both more expensive & cheaper options were available)
<snip>
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Didn't get a chance to call in at the garage and will have to be out when its a bit darker (& dryer lol) before I can take a pic against a wall.
In the meantime, white lights up front :)
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/whitelights.jpg)
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Not to rain on your parade Mike, or in any trying to disparage your or your opinions but.... Those Philip LED H4 lamps are rated for 1,000 lumens, which is slightly less than a halogen high performance lamp, and considerably less than a halogen H4 +80 or +90. The LED is cool technology but does not seem to produce any more or even as much useful light as compared with readily available and relatively inexpensive halogen lamps.
Just as a comparison, D2 HIDs are rated at between 3,000 and 3,200 lumens. And the retrofit HIDs work pretty well, actually surprisingly well, in a C-14 headlight bucket, at least in my opinion and experience. As I said, the LED technology is interesting and obviously it will continue to improve but right at the moment, HIDs are the better choice for a C-14.
Brian
Dip - Main
Hi -Lo
Same horse different jockey 8)
Hmm these are the "proper" Philips units
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Pair-Philips-H4-6200K-X-treme-Ultinon-LED-High-Low-Beam-Headlight-Lamp-/252682547636?_trksid=p2349526.m2548.l4275 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Pair-Philips-H4-6200K-X-treme-Ultinon-LED-High-Low-Beam-Headlight-Lamp-/252682547636?_trksid=p2349526.m2548.l4275)
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Not to rain on your parade Mike, or in any trying to disparage your or your opinions but.... Those Philip LED H4 lamps are rated for 1,000 lumens, which is slightly less than a halogen high performance lamp, and considerably less than a halogen H4 +80 or +90. The LED is cool technology but does not seem to produce any more or even as much useful light as compared with readily available and relatively inexpensive halogen lamps.
Just as a comparison, D2 HIDs are rated at between 3,000 and 3,200 lumens. And the retrofit HIDs work pretty well, actually surprisingly well, in a C-14 headlight bucket, at least in my opinion and experience. As I said, the LED technology is interesting and obviously it will continue to improve but right at the moment, HIDs are the better choice for a C-14.
Brian
Hi Brian,
don't particularly care what the numbers say but riding on unlit roads at night with the LEDs fitted was better than with the already excellent halogens :D
As for HID if I was going back down that rabbit hole then it would be via the projector route (https://www.retrofitlab.com/kawasaki-1400-gtr.html?_lang=2) not the filament replacement route.
Video of HID Projector Install (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXKG-fsNDNQ&spfreload=5)
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Not to rain on your parade Mike, or in any trying to disparage your or your opinions but.... Those Philip LED H4 lamps are rated for 1,000 lumens, which is slightly less than a halogen high performance lamp, and considerably less than a halogen H4 +80 or +90. The LED is cool technology but does not seem to produce any more or even as much useful light as compared with readily available and relatively inexpensive halogen lamps.
Just as a comparison, D2 HIDs are rated at between 3,000 and 3,200 lumens. And the retrofit HIDs work pretty well, actually surprisingly well, in a C-14 headlight bucket, at least in my opinion and experience. As I said, the LED technology is interesting and obviously it will continue to improve but right at the moment, HIDs are the better choice for a C-14.
The specs for the three Lumileds models we have encountered (that all appear to be the same bulbs) in this thread (not counting the Philips which claims 1000LB 1250HB with 6 chips) say 4,000 lumens, 4,600 lumens, and 6,000 lumens per bulb with 8 chips. The fact that the listings don't agree is troublesome, and one might question the validity of the claims. The Lumileds do have more [supposedly identical LED] chips on them, but that would still theoretically bring them to only at least 1667 lumens HB by some simple extrapolation, if you based it on Phillip's numbers.
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Yep, I understand completely and do not disagree. But to do a realistic comparison, you would have to try on HIDs in the C-14 buckets.
I agree that projectors are the way to go- to the point where I actually put together an HID based projector retrofit into a C-14 housing: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10405.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10405.0) And this is not a 'fits into the H4 housing hole' retrofit but a true open the housing, toss the reflectors and mount a pair of 'real' (FX 35, bi- xenon projectors) into a C-14 housing. Reflectors cannot compete with projectors for the simple reason that projectors can use the light from a pair of 180 degree arcs, including the light emitted forward, while reflectors must limit the light used to a 180 X 90 (max., usually less) sphere. If memory serves, reflectors only have 26% of the light emitted available while projectors can exceed 50%.
That said, the retrofit bi-xenon H4 lamps in a stock C-14 housing do work surprisingly.... no, amazingly well and produce tremendous amounts of usable light while not increasing glare (the light above the cut- off line) by enough to matter, at least IMO.
And at this point in time, arc light produces the most amount of light per unit of energy so 35 watts of HID is far more than the 1.6 amps (at 13.5 I assume) that Philips is claiming their LEDs draw. And that does not take into account the significant energy lost to heat as is shown by the massive heat- sinks to cool the LEDs; HIDs require no such cooling and modern ballasts consume less than seven watts of power.
And so again, I am not knocking you or your findings here, merely pointing out what seems to me to be the current (no pun intended) situation. I enjoy these types of conversation as I always learn something and as always, it is a pleasure chatting with another 'lighting enthusiast' regarding the newest developments in any kind of lighting which is essential for safer night motorcycling IMO.
Brian
Hi Brian,
don't particularly care what the numbers say but riding on unlit roads at night with the LEDs fitted was better than with the already excellent halogens :D
As for HID if I was going back down that rabbit hole then it would be via the projector route (https://www.retrofitlab.com/kawasaki-1400-gtr.html?_lang=2) not the filament replacement route.
Video of HID Projector Install (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXKG-fsNDNQ&spfreload=5)
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If you go to the Philips site that Mike pointed toward, they specifically say that their product emits 1,000 lumens. This and similar information (Hella, Matsushita, etc.) is the only information I believe to be accurate. The aftermarket crowd can claim a gazillion lumens.... I just do not believe it to be accurate :-)
Still, I think it is great progress if LEDs can equal halogen lighting, especially regarding a crisp cut- off line and possibly surpass it regarding power consumed and heat inside the light housing reduced (I do not really care about the heat sinks behind the reflector housings). And the layout of these new LED lamps is really very impressive, mimicking the physical size and location of H4 filaments. I hope and expect that shortly, as LED technology improves, they will out- distance all other forms of vehicle lighting.
Brian
The specs for the three Lumileds models we have encountered (that all appear to be the same bulbs) in this thread (not counting the Philips which claims 1000LB 1250HB with 6 chips) say 4,000 lumens, 4,600 lumens, and 6,000 lumens per bulb with 8 chips. The fact that the listings don't agree is troublesome, and one might question the validity of the claims. The Lumileds do have more [supposedly identical LED] chips on them, but that would still theoretically bring them to only at least 1667 lumens HB by some simple extrapolation, if you based it on Phillip's numbers.
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If you go to the Philips site that Mike pointed toward, they specifically say that their product emits 1,000 lumens. This and similar information (Hella, Matsushita, etc.) is the only information I believe to be accurate. The aftermarket crowd can claim a gazillion lumens.... I just do not believe it to be accurate :-)
I tend to agree with your statement. I find it very hard to believe the aftermarket claims for these LED bulbs we are talking about. Here are the chips I believe are being used (Philips Z-ES Lumileds):
http://www.lumileds.com/products/high-power-leds/luxeon-z-es (http://www.lumileds.com/products/high-power-leds/luxeon-z-es)
Assuming the aftermarkets are not overdriving the chips, the typical luminous flux at 6500K appears to be about 245 per chip. The Philips bulbs use 6 chips = 1470, and the aftermarket uses 8 = 1960. Those would be the most optimistic numbers I would believe without further information. And is all that light actually available? Not sure. But I could believe these aftermarkets might be twice as bright as a typical halogen. But as bright as HID? I think not.
But.... here is the nearly identical JDM AStar version of the same thing: https://www.amazon.com/JDM-ASTAR-Generation-Extremely-Headlights/dp/B018SYK6GW (https://www.amazon.com/JDM-ASTAR-Generation-Extremely-Headlights/dp/B018SYK6GW) I trust them more, only because I have used their other products and they had the most accurate description of wattage and brightness. In their listing, they list 3500/4000 lumens with 8 lit ZES chips (and 25 W each). This is the lowest/most reasonable claim so far. Back to the [supposedly] reliable chip info above, if they are really consuming 25W, the chips are rated at 125 lumens per watt, which would be 3,125 lumens per bulb. Hmm.
Still, I think it is great progress if LEDs can equal halogen lighting, especially regarding a crisp cut- off line and possibly surpass it regarding power consumed and heat inside the light housing reduced (I do not really care about the heat sinks behind the reflector housings). And the layout of these new LED lamps is really very impressive, mimicking the physical size and location of H4 filaments. I hope and expect that shortly, as LED technology improves, they will out- distance all other forms of vehicle lighting.
Based on the above info, I think it might be fair to say that these new generation of LED bulbs might be able to reach at least double halogen brightness, if not more. If comparing to HID, is that good enough? Depends, let's compare other factors first....
These LED bulbs pros-
* Far less heat (my HID kit does seem to be offgassing from the base and damaging my reflector).
* Easier and faster install.
* Fewer electrical parts (a box yes, but not two like on HID).
* Possibly better cutoff and glare control.
* Instant on with no warmup.
* No mechanical parts (HID uses magnetism for high/low beam switching).
* No vibration or jiggle in the beam (a problem my HID kit has- it is inherent in the design of requiring the bulbs to be pulled in and out for high/low beam).
* No need for high voltage. Possibly less EMI. Certainly low inrush current.
* Cutoff rotation.
* The "filament" placement is likely to be more accurate over time.
* Lights are impervious to water/humidity/touch oils.
* Less load on the electrical system (more power for other things).
HID pros-
* More light.
* Probably better CRI (color rendering accuracy).
* More color choice.
Both can be had around the same price. Both should be a massive improvement over halogen bulbs. No data on reliability. But are the numerous pros of these new LED's enough to make me jump? Still thinking....
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These LED bulbs pros-
* Far less heat (my HID kit does seem to be offgassing from the base and damaging my reflector).
* Easier and faster install.
* Fewer electrical parts (a box yes, but not two like on HID).
* Possibly better cutoff and glare control.
* Instant on with no warmup.
* No mechanical parts (HID uses magnetism for high/low beam switching).
* No vibration or jiggle in the beam (a problem my HID kit has- it is inherent in the design of requiring the bulbs to be pulled in and out for high/low beam).
* No need for high voltage. Possibly less EMI. Certainly low inrush current.
* Cutoff rotation.
* The "filament" placement is likely to be more accurate over time.
* Lights are impervious to water/humidity/touch oils.
* Less load on the electrical system (more power for other things).
HID pros-
* More light.
* Probably better CRI (color rendering accuracy).
* More color choice.
Nicely summarised and probably why top end OEM fitments are now going down the LED rather than the HID route (that and it allows designers more flexibility with headlamp shape (as they arent restricted to a H* type replacement)
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I agree that projectors are the way to go- to the point where I actually put together an HID based projector retrofit into a C-14 housing: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10405.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10405.0) And this is not a 'fits into the H4 housing hole' retrofit but a true open the housing, toss the reflectors and mount a pair of 'real' (FX 35, bi- xenon projectors) into a C-14 housing.
All your photos are missing :(
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Yeah, and I am having a problem getting into my photobucket account to fix that....
Brian
All your photos are missing :(
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Six or Eight LEDs would only be used for high beam; four are used for low beam to best match the position and size of the original H4 filament and at this point, that is not exceeding a standard H4 halogen lamp, which is 1,000 lumens. And high output halogen lamps produce more light on both high and low beam.
As far as LEDs being 'better' than HIDs regarding light pattern, there is no reason to believe that is the case. Again, the HID is positioned so that the arc duplicates the low beam placement, and it is close to the original H4 filament (slightly smaller, which would yield a tighter light pattern) so the basic light pattern is extremely close to the H4 lamp pattern. And there is no reason to believe any method of light generation (filament, LED or arc) would matter as long as it was the right size, in the right position w/in the reflector bucket and the low beam element(s) was properly shielded.
HIDs do suffer from one condition which is reflector overload. There is just so much light that stray light, the light not in the desired place or pattern, is increased. But high output halogen lamps suffer from the same problem; it is not due to the type of light, it is simply due to much, much more light than the reflector was designed to produce.
Brian
<snip>
Assuming the aftermarkets are not overdriving the chips, the typical luminous flux at 6500K appears to be about 245 per chip. The Philips bulbs use 6 chips = 1470, and the aftermarket uses 8 = 1960. Those would be the most optimistic numbers I would believe without further information. And is all that light actually available? Not sure. But I could believe these aftermarkets might be twice as bright as a typical halogen. But as bright as HID? I think not.
<snip>
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The scene
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt01.jpg)
Dip/Lo
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt02.jpg)
Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt03.jpg)
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Excellent, thanks!
Nice, sharp cut-off line. Looks like a very high quality system.
Brian
The scene
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt01.jpg)
Dip/Lo
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt02.jpg)
Main/Hi (hmm got a bit shakey there, soz)
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/LED/bt03.jpg)
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Excellent, thanks!
Nice, sharp cut-off line. Looks like a very high quality system.
Brian
Cheers
Think on balance its fair to say that in terms of combined performance, cost,ease of install it has to be a good bang for the buck. Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours which at 3 hours per day works out at 695 days
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I think 50,000 hours, used at 3 hours per day, will last 16,666.6 days or just over 45.5 years.
Even used continuously, on all the time, they should last over 2,080 days or ~5.7 years.
Unless "k" does not mean 1,000 units in the UK. ???
Brian
Cheers
Think on balance its fair to say that in terms of combined performance, cost,ease of install it has to be a good bang for the buck. Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours which at 3 hours per day works out at 695 days
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I think 50,000 hours, used at 3 hours per day, will last 16,666.6 days or just over 45.5 years.
Even used continuously, on all the time, they should last over 2,080 days or ~5.7 years.
Unless "k" does not mean 1,000 units in the UK. ???
Brian
Ok so my math is off tonight :doh: :doh:
Wanders off to open another beer, cheers
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Six or Eight LEDs would only be used for high beam; four are used for low beam to best match the position and size of the original H4 filament and at this point, that is not exceeding a standard H4 halogen lamp, which is 1,000 lumens.
My understanding is there are 6 (Philips) or 8 (non-Phillips) ZES chips per side. In low beam, it will use the 3 or 4 that are shielded, closest to the tip of the bulb, on both sides (which is 6 or 8 total chips being illuminated per bulb). In high beam, it will use the 3 or 4 that are unshielded, closest to the base (which is 6 or 8 total chips being illuminated per bulb). Is this not correct? If correct, my calculations should be valid and we are talking about a lot more than 1,000 lumens for each bulb, on low or high beam (at least on the non-Phillips bulb).
As far as LEDs being 'better' than HIDs regarding light pattern, there is no reason to believe that is the case. Again, the HID is positioned so that the arc duplicates the low beam placement, and it is close to the original H4 filament (slightly smaller, which would yield a tighter light pattern) so the basic light pattern is extremely close to the H4 lamp pattern.
That is assuming that the sloppy, spring-loaded, pop-in/out electromagnet positioning system is working perfectly and has zero slop. Mine doesn't. In fact, the light patterns even jiggle with road disturbance. If I remove the HID bulbs and shake them, they move around some and will sometimes not even return to the same position. My left bulb actually droops a few millimeters in the actuator, and that is bound to change the pattern. LED bulbs are more like halogen bulbs- the "filaments" are at an exact, fixed position and never have to move. This is what I was referring to in my comparison.
And there is no reason to believe any method of light generation (filament, LED or arc) would matter as long as it was the right size, in the right position w/in the reflector bucket and the low beam element(s) was properly shielded.
Agreed. It is all about positioning, amount of light, and light distribution that results in the ultimate pattern projected on the road. The distribution for filament and arc might be better than LED, since they are 360 degree sources instead of two 180 degree sources separated by several mm (or however thick that sucker is). I didn't put that in my comparison, and probably should. Not sure if it matters though, just speculating.
HIDs do suffer from one condition which is reflector overload. There is just so much light that stray light, the light not in the desired place or pattern, is increased.
And I do have that issue on my HID system now. I covered it pretty well in another thread a while ago (showed photos, described, etc). Some of that is unavoidable when you put a lot of light in a reflector not designed to handle it. The stray light levels might be acceptable at X lumens, but not at X*2 or X*3 lumens (it would need tighter tolerances/better design).
But high output halogen lamps suffer from the same problem; it is not due to the type of light, it is simply due to much, much more light than the reflector was designed to produce.
Agreed. But HID kits don't have fixed light sources, they move. And anything that can move can cause malpositioning for a variety of reasons. That is why I said it is possible that HID can produce more glare than LED (or high output halogen); but it will depend on the kit, the age, the design, etc.
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Only outstanding question is longevity. IIRC they claim 50k hours
One important thing you have to consider with LED life claims- the bulbs will get DIMMER over their life. Most companies will use an industry standard like 70% of original illumination as the definition of when life is over. So the bulbs often can last much, much longer than the claims. But they are also not at peak performance when they are old but still within their normal life.
I am not sure if it is a straight line deterioration, though. But if it was, then 50,000 hours at 2 hours a day is 68 years. But at 34 years they will be only 85% of their original brightness. If the claims were double inflated, then then could be a only 85% in 17 years.
The good news is that for most applications, those are such long periods that it won't matter much :)
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I guess I will know a lot more in a few weeks. I just ordered the "Cloudworks" version on USA Amazon. Not happy with the color temp, but whatever, I am tired of analyzing it. At $75, it is worth a try. If nothing else, it might be entertaining...
:nuts:
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I guess I will know a lot more in a few weeks. I just ordered the "Cloudworks" version on USA Amazon. Not happy with the color temp, but whatever, I am tired of analyzing it. At $75, it is worth a try. If nothing else, it might be entertaining...
:nuts:
you just couldn't resist :)
Its Ok a year or three and there will be more OEM at around the 6k mark as more vehicles adopt LED as standard , just consider it early adoption 8)
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Agreed. But HID kits don't have fixed light sources, they move. And anything that can move can cause malpositioning for a variety of reasons. That is why I said it is possible that HID can produce more glare than LED (or high output halogen); but it will depend on the kit, the age, the design, etc.
H4 HID Kits don't have fixed light sources. H7 etc do however as they aren't instant on then realistically they are limited to Dip/lo only
:P
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Mine just arrived minutes ago. Even the box looks identical to Mikey's. Here are the unboxing photos:
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continued...
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continued.... (I am nothing if not thorough).
Note: My adjustable tilt bulbs (scale of 1 to 13, with 7 being zero tilt) came set with a tilt of "6" from the box which is for left hand drive (US/CA/EU/most of the world). I don't know if the vendor or factory set it, so it is a good idea to check it before installing (you will want "8" for RIGHT HAND DRIVE (UK/Japan- drive on left side of road) vehicles. There are two allen bolts and an included wrench, just loosen them, rotate, and retighten both. You know you have it backwards if the "kick up" in the pattern is on the side of opposing traffic.
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continued.... (I am nothing if not thorough).
Note: These bulbs come set with a tilt of "6" from the factory. That is for RIGHT HAND DRIVE (UK/Japan- drive on left side of road). So you will need to adjust them to "8" for LEFT HAND DRIVE (US/CA/EU/most of the world- drive on right side of road). There are two allen bolts and an included wrench, just loosen them, rotate, and retighten both. The instructions are labeled backwards for some reason (they say "left hand reference", which I have never heard of). If you are unsure or don't believe me, just compare to your standard USA H4 bulbs.
If I get 5 I might put them to 7 which is a neutral position which actually more closely matches the standard halogen
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If I get 5 I might put them to 6 which is a neutral position which actually more closely matches the standard halogen
If you get 5 what?
On these bulbs, the scale is 1 to 13, "7" is a zero degree tilt. I measured by eye, and "8" does appear to be a bit more tilt than a standard halogen bulb tilt. There is no way I can really measure this stuff. I might settle on 7.5 or something. Not sure yet.
UPDATE: 8 is neutral
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OK, here you go. If ever you didn't believe me that specifications on most lights are pure marketing crap, this will prove it. See the photo. I have two meters, one measuring voltage, the other amps. I powered the system with a lithium battery pack/jumper system. I took four readings. I included a pinout diagram for those also who want to test.
Bulb 1 high beam: 1.50A @ 12.20V = 18.30W
Bulb 1 low beam: 1.49A @ 12.20V = 18.18W
Bulb 2 high beam: 1.51A @ 12.18V = 18.39W
Bulb 2 low beam: 1.50A @ 12.18V = 18.27W
The low and high beams are using a set of 8 identical LED chips at a time. So the average is 18.29 Watts per bulb. We now have a REAL number of power draw. Keep in mind this is battery voltage, not alternator voltage, so the power draw COULD be different when installed on the bike, if they are regulating it differently in their magic box. But I expect it to be similar.
Now look back at the label on the box... 160 Watts!!! So please, someone explain to me how 18.29 Watts is 160 Watts? Let me guess.... "Oh, we meant a pair and a pair LED's put out the halogen light equivalent of 160W!!" Yeesh...
Anyway, think back to the listed wattages on the various listings I researched for these bulbs.... the claims were 35W, 40W, and 25W. So even those are all bogus. I plan on taking light intensity readings too... so hang on.... :)
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Up now, apparent peak brightness:
I covered the lenses on the bike with the same paper and then used a light meter app at various fixed distances to estimate the actually brightness of the three bulbs. The results are not absolute but comparative (relative) numbers. This is my conclusion:
Philips Xtreme halogen: 584
HID: 1200
LED: 650
So the LED is brighter than even the Philips Xtreme halogen, but only by about 11%.
The HID blows them both away, being 105% brighter than the Xtreme and 85% brighter than the LED.
Let there be no doubt that the time for LED has arrived. It can easily compete with halogen bulbs of ANY type.
Please note this says NOTHING about total light emitted, only an estimate of the brightest spots. It also says nothing about the light pattern or USABLE light on the road. That will come later with road testing. I CAN say that the high-beam pattern on the paper is far more robust and even with the LED and Xtreme bulbs than the HID.
And yes, these LEDs are way too blue for my taste. But that was expected. Unfortunately, the left HID bulb installation has the stock H4 connector buried where I can't get to it. I have to start disassembling stuff. I might not have time. Will post comparison photos later.
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If you get 5 what?
On these bulbs, the scale is 1 to 13, "7" is a zero degree tilt. I measured by eye, and "8" does appear to be a bit more tilt than a standard halogen bulb tilt. There is no way I can really measure this stuff. I might settle on 7.5 or something. Not sure yet.
5 minutes
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Yep, HIDs produce the most light and because they are <virtually> a full- sphere light output, really shine (yeah, I know) when used with projectors, as do tungsten lamps.
LEDs are the most efficient and longest- lived, and are of course getting better at light output all the time.
Unfortunately, the cheapest usable lighting is still a tungsten bulb in a reflector, just like 1910, so we are still getting a lot of that in production vehicles, especially the less expensive vehicles.
Right now, I think the best way to go may well be LEDs in reflectors but several of them rather than one or two per side. There are some LED head-lighted vehicles showing up now and that is what they are doing- using relatively small lights and housings but more of them with several dedicated to both low and high beams.
Brian
Up now, apparent peak brightness:
I covered the lenses on the bike with the same paper and then used a light meter app at various fixed distances to estimate the actually brightness of the three bulbs. The results are not absolute but comparative (relative) numbers. This is my conclusion:
Philips Xtreme halogen: 584
HID: 1200
LED: 650
<snip>
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It took a long time, but I got the HID kit out and both LED bulbs in. I did have a ride tonight, but mostly urban which is not the best for testing. Might be several weeks before a rural night ride. Light output is certainly lower and bluer. For some reason, the cutoff is sharp on the right and kicked up some on the left... very confused so more fiddling needed.
So far, I think I probably made a mistake removing the HID kit (which is pretty much a permanent removal now) but it is livable. The kit was aging- some of the wires had cuts in it, the high/low beams were wobbly and those cables were always coming unplugged, the igniter in the cowl would never stay mounted and was moving around, etc. So I am trying to tell myself I had to remove it, anyway.
Lots of photos taken, but too tired now to do the 1+ hour worth of work editing, labeling, posting, etc. Perhaps tomorrow.
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If you get 5 what?
On these bulbs, the scale is 1 to 13, "7" is a zero degree tilt. I measured by eye, and "8" does appear to be a bit more tilt than a standard halogen bulb tilt. There is no way I can really measure this stuff. I might settle on 7.5 or something. Not sure yet.
I meant 7 lol
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I meant 7 lol
Do you remember what number it is set to right now? In your photo it was "8", but I don't know if you changed it. I am fairly certain I have the scale backwards for some reason (and will edit the other post).
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Do you remember what number it is set to right now? In your photo it was "8", but I don't know if you changed it. I am fairly certain I have the scale backwards for some reason (and will edit the other post).
I have it at 8 as per my original pics
Looking at it from the front I have 1 on the Left at the 9 oclock position sweeping clockwise through to 13 in the 3 oclock position
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It took a long time, but I got the HID kit out and both LED bulbs in. I did have a ride tonight, but mostly urban which is not the best for testing. Might be several weeks before a rural night ride. Light output is certainly lower and bluer. For some reason, the cutoff is sharp on the right and kicked up some on the left... very confused so more fiddling needed.
So far, I think I probably made a mistake removing the HID kit (which is pretty much a permanent removal now) but it is livable. The kit was aging- some of the wires had cuts in it, the high/low beams were wobbly and those cables were always coming unplugged, the igniter in the cowl would never stay mounted and was moving around, etc. So I am trying to tell myself I had to remove it, anyway.
Lots of photos taken, but too tired now to do the 1+ hour worth of work editing, labeling, posting, etc. Perhaps tomorrow.
Sounds like you've done a lot of work and spent a lot of time on this Max? Well done!
Maybe you should spend some of that time flushing out the ancient brake/clutch fluids in your bike instead eh? :stirpot:
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Sounds like you've done a lot of work and spent a lot of time on this Max? Well done!
Maybe you should spend some of that time flushing out the ancient brake/clutch fluids in your bike instead eh? :stirpot:
H e certainly has :)
But as the OP of this thread I'll stand by my original thoughts.
These particular LEDS are (based on the MK1 Human eyeball) better than the OEM halogen and IMHO represent good bang for the buck and for ease of fitment although if you don't like a slight blue tinge then you're sort of stuck (unless anyone starts producing lower colour temp ones)
Yes I agree HIDs are "brighter" however previous experience with HIDs direct in reflector based headlights has not been good although I do admit I havent tried them on the GTR.
IMHO HIDs are very good if used in a proper projector setup , anything else and its a case of YMMV
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I certainly appreciate what you've brought to this forum! :thumbs:
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IMHO HIDs are very good if used in a proper projector setup , anything else and its a case of YMMV
It is apparent I will never really be happy with anything less [than projectors]. I am spoiled by the G37, and have been for many years now.
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I have it at 8 as per my original pics
Looking at it from the front I have 1 on the Left at the 9 oclock position sweeping clockwise through to 13 in the 3 oclock position
Yep, I screwed it up somehow. Already edited the previous post and will have to take them out and fix it. Will move it to "6" or "6.5". Thanks.
Sounds like you've done a lot of work and spent a lot of time on this Max? Well done!
Too much time. I wish I was happier with the results.
Maybe you should spend some of that time flushing out the ancient brake/clutch fluids in your bike instead eh? :stirpot:
Indeed. But I understand electronics very well and know little about brakes... and doing the the brakes wrong can kill me. I am still waiting on my friend to help.
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If you are still needing help when it gets warmer, I'll come down and give you a hand...
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I certainly appreciate what you've brought to this forum! :thumbs:
thanks, I think ;)
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snip...
Indeed. But I understand electronics very well and know little about brakes... and doing the the brakes wrong can kill me. I am still waiting on my friend to help.
Not doing the brakes at all can also be bad for your health.
Really Max, flushing the F&R brakes is not difficult or involved at all. Once you do it you'll wonder why you put it off. The clutch on the other hand can be very easy or a major pain, no in-between.
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Thanks for the pointers and offers. I might even take Jim up on it (I need to do both clutch and brakes).
Back to the bulbs.... here are the photos. The first is a comparison between the Philips Xtreme Vision H4 (which also has a blue tint on the bulb glass for low beams) and the A&R HID kit. The second set is between the G6 LED and the HID. Of particular interest is the difference between low and high beam illumination on the LED (evenly fills the entire reflector) and the HID (which barely fills the bottom for some reason).
Also, the color difference is huge. The tinted H4 looks quite yellow compared to the HID. It is the reverse when you compare the LED to the HID.
Please note that the beam pattern is wrong, since I had the bulbs adjusted accidentally for left hand drive and will need to fix that. I noted as such on the photos. I also did not have time to properly aim/align the two headlights to each other (up/down).
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continued...
UPDATE: The photos were BEFORE I moved it to "8" which is neutral for a correct, straight cutoff with no stray light.
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Great- it is good to see (no pun intended) this amount of progress 'cause the initial stab at H4 retrofit LEDs was downright horrible. The cut- off line on this new type does look good.
Agreed about HIDs in reflectors being very hit or miss. I tried a set of H7s in a set of Ford reflectors and they were frankly unusable; the light did not really have any discernible pattern at all, which means no cut- off line. Absolutely atrocious. The H4 bi- xenon HID setup in a C-14 reflector is actually surprisingly good and quite similar to the original lamp's pattern, including a sharp cut- off.
Still, it is good to see improvements to forward lighting in general. The one thing I fear riding, especially at night, are 'forest rats' (deer) and better lighting, especially off the sides of the road, is a big benefit in spotting a glowing eyeball before that thing decided to jump into the center of my lane.
Brian
<snip>
These particular LEDS are (based on the MK1 Human eyeball) better than the OEM halogen and IMHO represent good bang for the buck and for ease of fitment although if you don't like a slight blue tinge then you're sort of stuck (unless anyone starts producing lower colour temp ones)
Yes I agree HIDs are "brighter" however previous experience with HIDs direct in reflector based headlights has not been good although I do admit I havent tried them on the GTR.
IMHO HIDs are very good if used in a proper projector setup , anything else and its a case of YMMV
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Thanks for the pointers and offers. I might even take Jim up on it (I need to do both clutch and brakes).
I work for beer and steaks..
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I work for beer and steaks..
Hmm... well, I don't eat meat and I don't drink alcohol. Would you work for chocolate?
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Wow, that would free up a LOT of my days!
Brian
Hmm... well, I don't eat meat and I don't drink alcohol. Would you work for chocolate?
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No longer have to get up before dawn to go hunting and brewing?
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No, not those things but thinking about various form of grain alcohol, buying and transporting said alcohol, consuming the alcohol and then waiting for the effects of said alcohol to wear off. Similar thing with the meat except even more choices (I do not drink many different kinds of liquor or spirits while I do consume many different types of meat (Boys!)). Plus there is the whole how to prepare / serve / garnish said meats. If all the time I spend thinking about and actually procuring and consuming these products could be used on other things, why I might just live forever! Which begs the question: Do vegans really live longer or does it just seem longer? :rotflmao:
But actually, as a group, non- alcohol consuming humans do not only live longer, they live healthier. Add to that that vegans who are also teetotalers actually outlive teetotalers by a fair margin, again as a group. There are plenty of sub- groups of people around to compare the results and I am a believer.
The true horror is living well and longer only to have one's retinas burned out by those evil folk who use the wrong bulb in the wrong housing.... oh, the huge manatees.
Brian
No longer have to get up before dawn to go hunting and brewing?
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Hmm... well, I don't eat meat and I don't drink alcohol. Would you work for chocolate?
No, just beer and steak. Plenty of restaurants around where you live.
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[...]Please note that the beam pattern is wrong, since I had the bulbs adjusted accidentally for left hand drive and will need to fix that. I noted as such on the photos. I also did not have time to properly aim/align the two headlights to each other (up/down).
So I pulled them out and rotated them the other direction, to 6.5, which is on the OTHER SIDE of 7. The result? It is even worse than before. It continues to blind all oncoming traffic with a kick that is on the left and extends into the center and the pattern is pretty whacked. I am completely baffled (and pissed). Adjustment means having to unplug them, unscrew the heatsinks (with a zillion threads), then removing the boot, then removing the retainer clip, then the bulb, then getting seatsink grease on fingers, then using an allen key to loosen and then retighten two tiny bolts on each bulb, and doing it all in reverse again to re-install.
I think I will have to unplug one bulb and experiment on the other without the heatsink, risking overheating, but that way I can try a bunch of settings and leave the ring unbolted so I can turn it while watching what happens.
UPDATE: The correct neutral position is "8", NOT "7". When I did this, it corrected the horrible looking pattern you will see in the photo, below.
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So I pulled them out and rotated them the other direction, to 6.5, which is on the OTHER SIDE of 7. The result? It is even worse than before. It continues to blind all oncoming traffic with a kick that is on the left and extends into the center and the pattern is pretty whacked. I am completely baffled (and pissed). Adjustment means having to unplug them, unscrew the heatsinks (with a zillion threads), then removing the boot, then removing the retainer clip, then the bulb, then getting seatsink grease on fingers, then using an allen key to loosen and then retighten two tiny bolts on each bulb, and doing it all in reverse again to re-install.
I think I will have to unplug one bulb and experiment on the other without the heatsink, risking overheating, but that way I can try a bunch of settings and leave the ring unbolted so I can turn it while watching what happens.
you're in the US aren't you ? In which case the kick should be to the right to illuminate street signs
Surely that kick is more a function of the reflector?
6.5 is pretty damned near neutral
What does the beam pattern look like with a standard halogen bulb in there?
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actually the more I think about it the more I think the rotating function is a gimmick.
A standard halogen H4 is not left or right handed.(ie a US sourced bulb should work equally well in a UK or US bike or vice versa)
The "shield" is in a flat horizontal position and isn't offset
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There is no standard but generally, the cut- off line is flat from just right on center all the way across the left side (oncomming traffic side here). The right sometimes just sweeps up at a slight angle of, say, 6 or 8 degrees or so, or in projector lights kicks up for a very short section, again to the right of center, at maybe 20 degrees for a short distance and then goes horizontal but at a higher level than the cut- off on the left. These are often called "Z" type cut- off lines. Of course in a projector headlight, the cut- off is caused by a metal blocking plate so the cut- off line and the optics (reflector and lens) are not in any way coupled. The same projectors can be used in the UK, Japan and other RHD countries just by flipping the blocking plate around 180 degrees.
Brian
you're in the US aren't you ? In which case the kick should be to the right to illuminate street signs
Surely that kick is more a function of the reflector?
6.5 is pretty damned near neutral
What does the beam pattern look like with a standard halogen bulb in there?
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you're in the US aren't you ? In which case the kick should be to the right to illuminate street signs
Exactly.
Surely that kick is more a function of the reflector?
Nope. I have photos that show no kick at all with HID and halogen bulbs in my C14.
6.5 is pretty damned near neutral
Yes, it is supposed to be. You can see why I am very unhappy right now.
UPDATE: "8" is neutral
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Nope. I have photos that show no kick at all with HID and halogen bulbs in my C14.
hmmm confused.
I would have thought that the reflector design would be the prime driver for the beam pattern with the position of the light source being secondary.
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I do not think so: I believe Kawasaki (and probably most others) use the same reflector bucket for RHD and LHD countries. The filament shield on a std. H4 low beam filament does wrap around the filament so about 180 degrees of light is shielded so slightly rotating the lamp in the housing would move the cut- off away from horizotal and you could put the higher side on either side of the bike by which direction it was rotated. All of which would lead me to believe they do use the same headlight buckets and just rotate the lamp mount (Boys!) for the country the bike will be used in.
The beam pattern on my C-14 is higher on the right but there is no step or anything, it is just a bit biased that way. So they could be simply rotating the lamp by the timing of the flange locating tab slots. ??
It is probably worth designing a different reflector bucket for most autos where they will be making millions for each type (RHD, LHD) but with sport touring motorcycles, the market is so small that it would be difficult to recover the design and tooling costs. Which is why the C-14 has a relatively small fuel tank: it is the one they were already tooled up to make for the ZX 14 and designing and tooling for an entirely new one would be expensive.
Brian
hmmm confused.
I would have thought that the reflector design would be the prime driver for the beam pattern with the position of the light source being secondary.
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Hmm
Well the part numbers (& prices) are different but as you say that could be iether because the socket at the back is biased slightly differently or because the refelctor is different.
US 23007-0108 (http://www.kawasakioriginalparts.com/road-bikes.html?blockref=99912-1485.G-14&machineid=753&year=2008&model=ZG1400A8F&country=US)
UK 23007-0090 (http://www.kawasakioriginalparts.com/road-bikes.html?blockref=99912-1486.G-13&machineid=754&year=2008&model=ZG1400A8F&country=GB)
On a related note the first couple of years of the Blackbirds the headlights were left & right handed (you could see a flat section on the left or right side of the dip beam reflector)
They then switched to a flat pattern that was universal.
I dont have any pics to hand(have had both) but the earlier ones showed the same clear kick up to the left I see on my GTR whilst the later ones there was no kick either way.
Based on that it appears to me that the reflector does do the cut off, but thats just my considered opinion, other opinions are always available :)
I do not think so: I believe Kawasaki (and probably most others) use the same reflector bucket for RHD and LHD countries. The filament shield on a std. H4 low beam filament does wrap around the filament so about 180 degrees of light is shielded so slightly rotating the lamp in the housing would move the cut- off away from horizotal and you could put the higher side on either side of the bike by which direction it was rotated. All of which would lead me to believe they do use the same headlight buckets and just rotate the lamp mount (Boys!) for the country the bike will be used in.
The beam pattern on my C-14 is higher on the right but there is no step or anything, it is just a bit biased that way. So they could be simply rotating the lamp by the timing of the flange locating tab slots. ??
It is probably worth designing a different reflector bucket for most autos where they will be making millions for each type (RHD, LHD) but with sport touring motorcycles, the market is so small that it would be difficult to recover the design and tooling costs. Which is why the C-14 has a relatively small fuel tank: it is the one they were already tooled up to make for the ZX 14 and designing and tooling for an entirely new one would be expensive.
Brian
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Well, I can snap a photo of my reflector, you can compare my reflector to your reflector (and no, I am not using 'reflector' as any kind of euphemism) and we can probably figure out if the reflector buckets are indeed different or not. That is after I find my headlight reflectors.... I think they are stored in the barn but am not sure. Of course I know where the ones in the bike are but I have another set that have been removed from the headlight ass'y that will make a better photo.
Brian
Hmm
Well the part numbers (& prices) are different but as you say that could be iether because the socket at the back is biased slightly differently or because the refelctor is different.
US 23007-0108 (http://www.kawasakioriginalparts.com/road-bikes.html?blockref=99912-1485.G-14&machineid=753&year=2008&model=ZG1400A8F&country=US)
UK 23007-0090 (http://www.kawasakioriginalparts.com/road-bikes.html?blockref=99912-1486.G-13&machineid=754&year=2008&model=ZG1400A8F&country=GB)
On a related note the first couple of years of the Blackbirds the headlights were left & right handed (you could see a flat section on the left or right side of the dip beam reflector)
They then switched to a flat pattern that was universal.
I dont have any pics to hand(have had both) but the earlier ones showed the same clear kick up to the left I see on my GTR whilst the later ones there was no kick either way.
Based on that it appears to me that the reflector does do the cut off, but thats just my considered opinion, other opinions are always available :)
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Sorry for not answering, stuffing face with curry & beer :)
Ok this is my Left hand (as you look at the bike) reflector.
From what I can see the key aea that may make a difference is the position of the cut out and shaped area to the left (ie the outside) of the bowl
(RH side is identical layout)
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/reflector.jpg)
Full size image
http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/reflector.jpg (http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/reflector.jpg)
Well, I can snap a photo of my reflector, you can compare my reflector to your reflector (and no, I am not using 'reflector' as any kind of euphemism) and we can probably figure out if the reflector buckets are indeed different or not. That is after I find my headlight reflectors.... I think they are stored in the barn but am not sure. Of course I know where the ones in the bike are but I have another set that have been removed from the headlight ass'y that will make a better photo.
Brian
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Interestingly just found a picture of a Chinese replacement headlight and that has one reflector with the cutoff on the left and one on the right
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dLYAAOSwa~BYUZo4/s-l1600.jpg)
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dLYAAOSwa~BYUZo4/s-l1600.jpg (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dLYAAOSwa~BYUZo4/s-l1600.jpg)
Compare with mine
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/headlight.jpg)
http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/headlight.jpg (http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/headlight.jpg)
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In fact looking at that chinese headlight again the side sections don't have the same very distinct almost 45 deg cutoff mine does. Wonder if its more like the US item and produces a flatter cut off ?
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Interestingly just found a picture of a Chinese replacement headlight and that has one reflector with the cutoff on the left and one on the right
In fact looking at that chinese headlight again the side sections don't have the same very distinct almost 45 deg cutoff mine does. Wonder if its more like the US item and produces a flatter cut off ?
I (for one) am not sure what you are talking about :) I don't see the difference. But I am pretty sure the majority of the "cuffoff" is done by the shield in the low-beam of the H4 bulb.
Whenever I get the time (yeesh), I will be experimenting and free-rotating the LED bulbs while watching and will know a lot more about what is happening. Might also compare to the old halogen bulb too.
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I (for one) am not sure what you are talking about :) I don't see the difference. But I am pretty sure the majority of the "cuffoff" is done by the shield in the low-beam of the H4 bulb.
Here we go I've highlighted it for you.
Chinese headlight
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/chinese.jpg)
Compared to mine (only one side shown as the full one didnt show it clearly, both my buckets have the cut off to the left side of the bulb as you look at it), the chinese one is less angled and has one on each side. Now we may well both be right.
On a RHD bike (eg UK) then the reflector design is the primary producer.
On a LHD bike (eg US) if the reflector is the same as the CHinese made unit then IMHO the difference in shape of those areas would produce a flatter beam without a kickup to the left hand side and in that situation maybe the shield does make a difference.
That said I wasn't aware the standard H4 bulbs were different for different markets, I thought the shield was always horizontal and not rotated left or right
(http://sharetheexperience.co.uk/Images/GTR/reflector2.jpg)
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Thinking about it logically for the moment if your reflectors are the same layout as that Chinese headlight you may need to rotate the bulbs differently (or just put them both at the #7 neutral position.)
Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance.
You have to remember a reflector works by flipping the "image" around both the horizontal & vertical axis (ie whatevers on the top is at the bottom loooking forwards and whatevers on the left (looking from the front of the bike) is on the left looking forwards.
This is also why when taking a UK vehicle over to Europe we have to use beam adaptors to cut off the normal (for us) kick up to the left hand side (ie to illuminate street signs) and this is typically achieved by adding tape to the middle just below centreline of the headlamp at the left side (looking towards the bike/car) pf the headamp, ie cutting out the kink highlighted in my own headlight pic.
NOTE, The tape method is a workaround, proper beam adaptors are actually small fresnel lenses that stick in the same position and also move the cut off slightly
(http://www.europeandrivingkits.co.uk/contents/media/l_headlight%20deflectors%20converters.jpg)
Example of tape method ona car, NB many manufacturers etch small marks to assist with positioning, on others its a bit more trial & error
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/trevd01/IMG_0949a.jpg)
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Thinking about it logically for the moment if your reflectors are the same layout as that Chinese headlight you may need to rotate the bulbs differently (or just put them both at the #7 neutral position.)
Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance.
At this point you are re-hashing what I already said. I tried both sides of 7 (7.5 and 6.5) and both ways I am getting a beam pattern with a kick on the left both ways which is not what I should have. At 7.5 it was a so-so pattern with a wrong-for-me left kick. At 6.5 it is a very poor pattern (no clean cutoff) and a wrong-for-me left kick. With the HID and halogen bulbs I get no kick at all.
When I get a chance I will be trying every position in a slow rotational sweep to see what is happening. My current theory is that these reflectors are extremely sensitive to rotation and can only form reasonable patterns with certain, exact positions.
UPDATED IN LATER POSTINGS WITH SOLUTION, SEE BELOW
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Hmmm, haven't had any issues with the normal H4s... ;)
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At this point you are re-hashing what I already said. I tried both sides of 7 (7.5 and 6.5) and both ways I am getting a beam pattern with a kick on the left both ways which is not what I should have. At 7.5 it was a decent pattern with a wrong-for-me left kick. At 6.5 it is a poor pattern (no clean cutoff) and a wrong-for-me left kick. With the HID and halogen bulbs I get no kick at all.
When I get a chance I will be trying every position in a slow rotational sweep to see what is happening. My current theory is that these reflectors are extremely sensitive to rotation and can only form reasonable patterns with certain, exact positions.
We may both be right.
Does your reflector show the same pattern on it as that chinese one?
Ie does it have the cut out areas on the outside of both reflectors?
If it does then you may need to set each side differently
"Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance."
Can you take a close up pic of the reflector s?
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[...]"Looking towards the bike I would suggest the LH light needs to be in the UK-RHD#8 position and the RH light in the US-LHD#6 position for optimal performance."
Sorry, I misread what you said earlier (probably because I should have been asleep). No, it is impossible that it would be need to set differently between the two headlights/reflectors (left and right). We can't do that on H4 halogen bulbs nor HID bulbs and there is no kick on either of those. No other bulbs have rotation adjustment (that I know of). The LED bulbs will need to match what the other bulbs do if they expect to match the same pattern (which is my goal.... I don't even want a kick, and if there is one, it needs to be small and on the correct side).
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Hi Max
I'm going to use your original pics (and when it comes to LH/RH I'm referring to looking at the bike unless stated otherwise)
In this pic you can see the kick that I would expect if your reflector is the same as the Chinese one ie it has the shaped section on the LHS same as my UK bike but not as exaggerated, ie a subtle kick up to the LHS as you ride the bike.
On the RHS the HID iss overpowering it and you cant see any kick on the RHS of the reflector (which is where the RH reflector has its shaped section unlike my UK bike where it is on the LHS)
Have you got a pic with paper on of both LEDs installed as suspect the net effect of one side having a left kick and the other side of having a right kick will (or should) give a net effect of a flat cut off.
On my UK bike because both reflectors have the shaped section on the LHS of the reflector the net effect is that there is a distinct kick to the left hand side as you sit on the bike
(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22202.0;attach=27585;image)
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Sorry, I misread what you said earlier (probably because I should have been asleep). No, it is impossible that it would be need to set differently between the two headlights/reflectors (left and right). We can't do that on H4 halogen bulbs nor HID bulbs and there is no kick on either of those. No other bulbs have rotation adjustment (that I know of). The LED bulbs will need to match what the other bulbs do if they expect to match the same pattern (which is my goal.... I don't even want a kick, and if there is one, it needs to be small and on the correct side).
Hence my comment about if needs be setting both to a neutral position.
It may well be that the universal headlight which you appear to have would benefit from dfferent settings each side :)
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I tried both sides of 7 (7.5 and 6.5) and both ways I am getting a beam pattern with a kick on the left both ways which is not what I should have. At 7.5 it was a so-so pattern with a wrong-for-me left kick. At 6.5 it is a very poor pattern (no clean cutoff) and a wrong-for-me left kick. With the HID and halogen bulbs I get no kick at all.
When I get a chance I will be trying every position in a slow rotational sweep to see what is happening. My current theory is that these reflectors are extremely sensitive to rotation and can only form reasonable patterns with certain, exact positions.
I FINALLY got warm enough weather and time and opportunity to do the rotation test.
MYSTERY SOLVED. And the cause of all the problems? "7" is *NOT* neutral, even though it is the exact middle number. 8 is! As I predicted, the reflectors are INCREDIBLY sensitive to rotation. Even though I tried 7.5 originally, moving it to 8 made all the difference in the world. Just 1/2 a notch. I now have super sharp cutoff, perfectly horizontal, with no freaky pattern, no stray light, and no glare. MUCH, MUCH better pattern than the HID it replaced.
My recommendation for anyone who needs to experiment with these bulbs, unplug one side, then take the other out completely and loosen the two bolts holding it from rotating, put it back in without the heat sink, start the bike, shine it on a large white wall, and VERY SLOWLY turn it from one direction to the other and watch how quickly the pattern goes insane and make note of the correct spot. when you turn off the bike, using a flashlight you can see the numbers by looking at the bulb through the front lens. Then take it out and readjust it to that, bolt it down tight, and reassemble (with boot and heat sink, of course) and do the same with the other (they will be identical in setup/indicator number). I wish I could have taken a video to show it, but didn't have enough help or time.
I will add that although I was already unhappy with the 5000K color in principle and "look" of these bulbs, I think the CRI (color rendering index) is also too low, so everything under this type of light looks less colorful and harder to see. I will add that as a plus for halogen and HID (if I didn't already).
Also, I could test the heatsinks. They do get warm, but even after being on a hour riding, then sitting still for 5 minutes, I can place my hand on them with no discomfort.
Will update previous posts for those who follow in the future.
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So that's a 9/10 then :)
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I just wanted to verify something and make sure my assumptions are correct.
When you are adjusting these LEDs and changing the "tilt" it is simply rotating the LEDs and not actually Tilting the LED housing front to rear (raising or lowering) but rather simply spinning the LED holder in the housing so that if there where a clock face in the housing that (in the extreme) one LED side might be in the 8 O'clock position and the other LED side would be in the 2 O'clock position (in the same reflector).
The reason I ask is, I have the older Evitek LEDs that I was going to try and modify for rotation even though their LEDs aren't shaped as well as these G6 LEDs are.
Most don't notice this (although Brian has mentioned it more than once), the C14 reflector housing throws down a "Clearance" light pattern down on the left and right of the bike so that two
six-eight inch light strips of illuminated pavement are present. When following a bunch of C14s at night it is very striking and noticable. When I went to HIDs, the pattern was consistent with the halogen pattern only much much brighter and noticeable. When I went to the LEDs the pattern was spit into at least 3 strips on each side and not near as noticable. I am curious max' if you noticed what the pattern from yours looks like after you adjusted the rototation?
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I just wanted to verify something and make sure my assumptions are correct.
When you are adjusting these LEDs and changing the "tilt" it is simply rotating the LEDs and not actually Tilting the LED housing front to rear (raising or lowering) but rather simply spinning the LED holder in the housing so that if there where a clock face in the housing that (in the extreme) one LED side might be in the 8 O'clock position and the other LED side would be in the 2 O'clock position (in the same reflector).
The reason I ask is, I have the older Evitek LEDs that I was going to try and modify for rotation even though their LEDs aren't shaped as well as these G6 LEDs are.
Most don't notice this (although Brian has mentioned it more than once), the C14 reflector housing throws down a "Clearance" light pattern down on the left and right of the bike so that two
six-eight inch light strips of illuminated pavement are present. When following a bunch of C14s at night it is very striking and noticable. When I went to HIDs, the pattern was consistent with the halogen pattern only much much brighter and noticeable. When I went to the LEDs the pattern was spit into at least 3 strips on each side and not near as noticable. I am curious max' if you noticed what the pattern from yours looks like after you adjusted the rototation?
Correct , its rotating the LEDs within their own housing.
The 3 arms slot into the standard H$ fitments and with the screw loosened the inner body rotates
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Correct , its rotating the LEDs within their own housing.
The 3 arms slot into the standard H$ fitments and with the screw loosened the inner body rotates
Thanks! :thumbs:
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I just wanted to verify something and make sure my assumptions are correct.
When you are adjusting these LEDs and changing the "tilt" it is simply rotating the LEDs and not actually Tilting the LED housing front to rear (raising or lowering) but rather simply spinning the LED holder in the housing so that if there where a clock face in the housing that (in the extreme) one LED side might be in the 8 O'clock position and the other LED side would be in the 2 O'clock position (in the same reflector).
As Mikey said, correct. You are rotating the bulb. My advice with these bulbs is to find neutral (now it appears to be "8") and leave it there.
Most don't notice this (although Brian has mentioned it more than once), the C14 reflector housing throws down a "Clearance" light pattern down on the left and right of the bike so that two
six-eight inch light strips of illuminated pavement are present.
I have noticed that before and I didn't realize that was actually intentional or served any useful purpose (although I speculated a bit about it and then dismissed the thought). So ultimately my conclusion was it is just stray light.
When following a bunch of C14s at night it is very striking and noticable. When I went to HIDs, the pattern was consistent with the halogen pattern only much much brighter and noticeable. When I went to the LEDs the pattern was spit into at least 3 strips on each side and not near as noticable. I am curious max' if you noticed what the pattern from yours looks like after you adjusted the rototation?
I didn't specifically look for it. I will try to remember the next time I ride and will report back.
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I have noticed that before and I didn't realize that was actually intentional or served any useful purpose (although I speculated a bit about it and then dismissed the thought). So ultimately my conclusion was it is just stray light.
I didn't specifically look for it. I will try to remember the next time I ride and will report back.
I assumed it was intentional but I'm not sure of any useful purpose, other than we could use it to compare lighting...that is (and the reason for my question) to see how close these alternative lighting systems come to the original focal point of the reflector by comparing these stray light/clearance light spots on the ground. Probably best just to look at them in the garage at night. When seated on my bike, I have to lean out to either side to see them.
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<snip
My recommendation for anyone who needs to experiment with these bulbs, unplug one side, then take the other out completely and loosen the two bolts holding it from rotating, put it back in without the heat sink, start the bike, shine it on a large white wall, and VERY SLOWLY turn it from one direction to the other and watch how quickly the pattern goes insane and make note of the correct spot. when you turn off the bike, using a flashlight you can see the numbers by looking at the bulb through the front lens. snip >
Max, why are you starting the bike?
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Max, why are you starting the bike?
So the headlights will come on.
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The headlights don't care if the engine is running or not. Bump the starter without starting the engine. The headlight relay will trip.
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The headlights don't care if the engine is running or not. Bump the starter without starting the engine. The headlight relay will trip.
True, but I was messing with it for a long time and didn't want to drain the battery. Of course, being LED, I forget they don't pull as much. Looking back at it, I bet that would have made more sense. Oh well, there is always next time!
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The bike is burning a low beam filament H4 every 10k miles /10 months. I just saw on Amazon a Philips HED that looks good...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TF8W18G/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B07TF8W18G&pd_rd_w=T3S2L&pf_rd_p=8a8f3917-7900-4ce8-ad90-adf0d53c0985&pd_rd_wg=FyrjZ&pf_rd_r=N91H2CFPES1VS0A730FR&pd_rd_r=9a8c35f9-9d56-44c1-a847-9e32d2799609&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TF8W18G/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B07TF8W18G&pd_rd_w=T3S2L&pf_rd_p=8a8f3917-7900-4ce8-ad90-adf0d53c0985&pd_rd_wg=FyrjZ&pf_rd_r=N91H2CFPES1VS0A730FR&pd_rd_r=9a8c35f9-9d56-44c1-a847-9e32d2799609&th=1)
does anyone have experience with this LED light??
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I just saw on Amazon a Philips HED that looks good...[..]does anyone have experience with this LED light??
Those things change CONSTANTLY, so it is unlikely you will find someone else who has used the same one. I will say I am not a fan of fans...