C10 EFI Project

[gpineau]

I broke down and pulled the valve cover. Glad I did.

I guess the valves have never been adjusted since the factory.
All of the intake valves had zero clearance. None whatsoever.  And the exhaust were almost as bad. 

Cylinder 1 exhaust had zero clearance.

Set the intakes to .007 and the exhaust to .009.
Now all the valves sound the same when it is running.

I wish Colorado would let us go for a ride!
 

[connie_rider]

Wow. That is going to effect the tune you did as well.
You probably had leakage at the valves.

Ride safe, Ted

[gpineau]

Wow. That is going to effect the tune you did as well.
You probably had leakage at the valves.

Ride safe, Ted

Yes, I am going to start the tune over again. Should not have changed that much. It starts and runs ok now. I can't tell for sure how much it changed until I can get out on the road.

One thing for sure, the engine is louder than before. The valves are actually closing now. Before the adjustment I think most of the valves didn't actually seat. I can now hear the cam followers tapping on top of the valves where before they were always in contact.

Its a beautiful day outside I wish I could get out but with  my luck I would get pulled over for violating the stay at home order.

[gpineau]

Running out of things to do and stuck at home due to the corona virus. I remembered I forgot something....I need to balance the throttle bodies.
It took about 30 minutes now I am bored again....!

https://youtu.be/Ph2pYHU4iOo

Is everyone else as bored as me? Colorado has a stay at home order until April 26th.

What's it like where you live?

[connie_rider]

What do you do when you need to go get groceries/supplies?
        I assume you drive to the store..
So, ride to the store {and while doing so} do an adjust..
  Your not going to be face to face with anyone.

Ride safe, Ted

[gpineau]

Being my age and taking immune supressive drugs, I try not to go inside the stores. I send my wife in with a mask and gloves. I'm not afraid to ride my bike since I would not be interacting with anyone. But if the sheriff sees me out on a country road wandering aimlessly I might get a citation.  The order is supposed to be lifted on Sunday with continued social distancing and masks when in public.  I can wait another 5 days

 This is how I felt all week...https://youtu.be/HpU6NtOE1SY

[kkja13]

Our stay at home order is more of a suggestion in our county (East TX, Smith Co).  I've been out on my C10 many times just burning up the cheap fuel!

[connie_rider]

My store suggestion was an excuse if your stopped.
  Not an actual destination / shopping trip.

      <evil grin>   

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Here's something to sing while we're setting at home...……

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Their+coming+to+take+me+away+Haa+haa%2c%2c%2c%2c&view=detail&mid=46AFBD4359200CF75E5C46AFBD4359200CF75E5C&FORM=VIRE&cc=US&setlang=en-US&cvid=4374ea3658fd41c7ac338b052070d8ee&qs=SW&nclid=CAA502AFF7FAB55ECF9B91C37058FC0D&ts=1587573400732
 
Ride safe, Ted

[VirginiaJim]

I don't think anyone is stopping anyone out here in Virginia.  At least I've never heard of it happening.  They might look at large groups but that's about it as far as I know.  In fact, I went out this morning (truck) to get some tools and there was quite a bit of traffic on the road.

[gpineau]

I underwent an organ transplant 4 years ago and I take immune supressive medications to prevent my immune system from attacking the donor organ. That makes me very susceptible to any virus or bacteria. Since my wife is out at work all day we are maintaining distance between us and we sleep in different rooms. Constantly wiping down surfaces and washing hands.  My daughter also works  and she has been living at a hotel since this started. 

I didn't mean to imply that we are under marshal law here. But we do have a stay at home order in force.  I see more police patrols in the neighborhood than before. We of course can go out for groceries and supplies. For the most part the streets are empty in my neighborhood, but occasionally I see kids out playing on their bikes and I see adults walking their dogs but I don't see groups anywhere.

My wife works at Walmart and they take your temperature when you enter the store. And they limit the number of people that can be in the store at any one time. Same at home depot. I have made trips to home depot but I place my order online and wait for a text message before I go get it. Then it is in the lockers at the front of the store.

I don't leave the house unless I have a destination and I am wearing my mask.  I might take a spin on the bike later today but I probably wont leave the neighborhood.

[gpineau]

I went out for a short 15 minute ride. I went out the back of the neighborhood and took the route that would take me past all the fast food places so I would have a plausible reason for being out. 

I turned on auto tune before I left and let it adjust the VE tables as I drove around. The original tune that  was done with the larger injectors and injected from behind the  butterfly is a lot different than the  new configuration. With the smaller injectors and throttle bodies instead of re-purposed carbs the original tune was way too rich and auto-tune spent most of the time leaning out the VE table. A few cells at low RPM required more fuel.
 
I need to change the throttle enrichment curve. Its going too lean when you go to wide open throttle too quickly it will bog down for a second or two. I think that is why Kawasaki put the secondary throttle plates in the throttle bodies.

Worst of it I lost one cylinder on the final half mile. I got on a strait road and opened up,  I got up to 85 then shut it down and glided the rest of the way to the stop light. Just as i reached the light it started backfiring and running really rough. I thought I was going to have to push it the rest of the way home. But it stayed running long enough to get back the house.  It would run fine for a few seconds then start sputtering again. I think this is a fouled plug or intermittent coil.  Oh well I have something to do tomorrow. 

I looked at the VE table when I got home and see a few unexpected numbers that I cant explain. ( ve values of 5 or less when downshifting).  In the chart to the right of the ve table green is all the cells that were changed , red means it was adjusted leaner and blue means it was adjusted richer. Darker color represents larger adjustments.
 

[connie_rider]

Sounds promising.
I understand your still not done.
Prior to the misfire, did it seem better than with the other Throttle bodies/injectors?

Ride safe, Ted

[gpineau]

Yes it does seem better in some ways. The acceleration at the low end is stronger than before (as long as you don't go full throttle).  Cold start is better, usually on the first or second revolution.

Yesterday was  the fastest I have ever ridden it.  85 mph,  it had more but I was coming up on an intersection so I shut it down. 
I need to address the problem of it running out of steam at full throttle. Up to 3/4 throttle is does very well with great acceleration. But that last quarter turn on the throttle does not seem to add much. It still goes a bit faster but the acceleration is slower.  I think it it going too lean at wide open throttle. I can do some logs of the AFR while running and see exactly what is going on.

First I need to find out what caused it to start backfiring. Usually that is a fouled plug. When I got it home it was idling, but I could hear an occasional misfire. Ill check the plugs today.  I hope it is that simple.

[connie_rider]

Hate to mention this, but is it possible that the injectors are now too small?
If so, it would run out of steam and go lean..

Ride safe, Ted

[gpineau]

Hate to mention this, but is it possible that the injectors are now too small?
If so, it would run out of steam and go lean..

Ride safe, Ted

 You had to mention that!
But yes that has crossed my mind. OR it could have been the #1 plug on the verge of fouling.

 I will need to take a data log while it is doing it in order to be sure.  I can monitor the pulse width and see if at any time it goes over 90% duty cycle. That is where I set the limit.

The most recent  log I have, there is not an instance of the issue. The highest RPM recorded was 4500 RPM and corresponds to a duty cycle of 28.9% and a pulse width of 4.1ms. To exceed 90% duty cycle the pulse width would be over 13 ms. (lowest part of the graph).

 But that is under no load. I need to capture the log while it is under load and exhibiting the problem.

I took these injectors off a 1000cc Kawasaki Z1000 so they should be enough but the proof is in the testing.

[MAN OF BLUES]

watching and listening to progress,
did you remove and or completely block the functions of the old reed valve zone?
In the 45 years i've been tuning, I think what you are seeing now, with the lack of accell rise, and the backfire thing, is that things are going very rich, when a bike runs lean, it will rev sky high, (bwawwwwww), and when it is being over fueled, they bog..((braaaawwBoggggg), and fall flat..and won't high rev.
The backfire, is un burnt fuel, which ignites, when it finally mixes with air, in the exhaust, as secondary sign..
I also see you are running big pod filters, so, that may be adding some oddity.. maybe wrap them in a single layer of porous foam, to add some resistance for airflow.. it may have an effect on "back off "throttle fuel atomisation..

also glad to see you finally adjusted valves.. that should have been done from the beginning, as everything you have done relies on those. 

just tossing some tidbits.. but I don't think you are really running lean, remember, your valves, and timing.. are not the same, as the EFI bike your injectors came from.  If you compare the C14, which has larger displacement, a lot of fuel flow when desired, and much smaller exhaust pipes and restrictions, has a huge airbox where the filter lives.. it's function is to contain, and prevent reversion/pulse effects, of air supplied to the intake.

[gpineau]

watching and listening to progress,
did you remove and or completely block the functions of the old reed valve zone?
In the 45 years i've been tuning, I think what you are seeing now, with the lack of accell rise, and the backfire thing, is that things are going very rich, when a bike runs lean, it will rev sky high, (bwawwwwww), and when it is being over fueled, they bog..((braaaawwBoggggg), and fall flat..and won't high rev.
The backfire, is un burnt fuel, which ignites, when it finally mixes with air, in the exhaust, as secondary sign..
I also see you are running big pod filters, so, that may be adding some oddity.. maybe wrap them in a single layer of porous foam, to add some resistance for airflow.. it may have an effect on "back off "throttle fuel atomisation..

also glad to see you finally adjusted valves.. that should have been done from the beginning, as everything you have done relies on those. 

just tossing some tidbits.. but I don't think you are really running lean, remember, your valves, and timing.. are not the same, as the EFI bike your injectors came from.  If you compare the C14, which has larger displacement, a lot of fuel flow when desired, and much smaller exhaust pipes and restrictions, has a huge air-box where the filter lives.. it's function is to contain, and prevent reversion/pulse effects, of air supplied to the intake.

Thanks, for the advice. You may be right. It could be too rich. I checked all the plugs and 1 & 4 are black , 2 & 3 are dark.  I cleaned them and the log I posted previously was after i reinstalled them. I can see in the log that the AFR during that short run was in the neighborhood of 16:1 But those readings were all while it was still warming up and me milking the throttle. 

The VE table I started with was from the old tune when I had the larger injectors inside the air-box. So now I have a complete set of throttle bodies and injectors of a Z1000 the tune is far from optimum.  I could see when I got home that  tuner studio spent most of its time trying to lean it out. I am sure there is a lot more to do.   The misfire seems to have passed since I cleaned the plugs.  I will have more information when I next ride. I will turn on logging before I leave the garage so I will have a record of everything that happens from start to finish.

As far as the valves.... I should have known. But I had a lot of things on my mind and tons of other distractions.  This is the 3rd used Connie I have purchased. The first 2 had the same problem, little or no valve clearance.

The old reed valves were removed and the ports were blocked.  If they were leaking what would be the effect?

[MAN OF BLUES]

if you truley wanna block those ports, best way is to pull the cover, run a 5/16" tap in each hole, and install a rtv coated setscrew.. to truely block the port hole. Sometimes the cover plates leak, when just installing those as a remedie.

the Air Ingress, afforded thru the reeds, did actually prevent that back fire thing, by allowing fresh air into the exhaust, just past the actual exhaust valves, to burn off excessive fuel on decell mode, without backfires.. If they were removed, and there is a leak, its a tricky leak thing, as it allows pulses to puff back up, and into the valve cover (the reed is a one way valve, allow flow down, but not back up..)

if you did away with that all, the excess fuel, when shutting down the throttle, will accumulate, and pop, and backfire when the LEL (lower explosive limit) is reached, in the exhaust when the exhaust is diluted with enough oxygen, to explode. Usually down lower in the exhaust pipe, due to pulse.

Following you, keep up on it. I'm just trying to help at this point, not to be messing with you.(I think you know I apologized, and hopefully you realize I'm being sincere)

carry on,

[gpineau]

Up until yesterday when ever I saw your name attached to a post I would say to myself, "oh hell here we go again". But yesterday was different. I appreciate the constructive advice and help.

Let me say THANKS again. I can see from the tone that you are sincerely trying to help.

I want to put the past head butting behind us. I saw your apology and I sent you a private message acknowledging it. Now I publicly accept it so now we can move on. 
I hope that going forward we can help each other in common goals to achieve successful projects.

PS. Honestly I am so relieved. Gerry

[sport rider]

Geez...enough of this hugging and kissing stuff.  Fix the damn bike!