Author Topic: Stator Problem? or Precursor to fried Battery ... (aka Plasma Ball Saga)  (Read 31713 times)

Offline just gone

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2017, 07:51:25 AM »

And how would someone know that by looking at it?

Well, he did look at it through the eyes of an ohm meter, but the question remains was it hooked up to the bike's circuitry or was it disconnected.....and whatever else Brian said  :-\ :)...

Solid state electronics are current- direction sensitive, so must be checked with an Ohmmeter using the Red test lead on the 'in' points and the black test lead on the 'out' points for a valid reading. A diode in the way will yield false readings, So your ECU reading of pins 21 to 44 should be checked the other way, from pin 44 to 21.

And checked that way, no, it should not read 0.4 Ohms. Given a nominal 12 volts, that would allow 30 amps to flow through that circuit, which is far too high.

I assume you are checking the ECU's alone, with NOTHING attached to them, right?


Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2017, 08:06:46 AM »
Unless you have some sort of tester you can hook up to it like a KDS tool possibly, there's no way of knowing it's bad or not.  Course if there's a great big hole in it, that's pretty self apparent.
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2017, 09:46:15 AM »
I chose to not quote every reply because that would clutter this reply.  Thanks for everyone's interest and participation in this thread.

The ECU's were removed from the bike prior to testing.  I didn't bother with reverse polarity tests because a short circuit across a power connection is a short circuit across a power connection - blown fuses provided the initial indicator of a problem.  I will see if my local shop has a tester to verify what I have concluded.

I did imply that I had also lost the $$$ I spent on the flash on the DFI ECU.  I only had it a few short months and I was very happy with it.

I could provide a total of the $$$ that I had recently spent on the bike to keep it going but I'll just list what I have recently done:

Valve adjustment.
New Tires, zero miles on them.
New Front Brakes, zero miles on them.
New Battery.
2 Voltage Regulators replaced.

I don't know if I have the stamina to replace the ECU's.  I certainly don't have the spare $$$.  I don't know what I'm going to do but I need to restore or replace the bike.  One of the two.  That's where I'm at.

I would be interested with speaking to anyone who has a source for used DFI and KIPASS ECU's.  Maybe someone who is parting out a Connie.  Mine is a 2008.

Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2017, 06:32:52 PM »
I have decided to get some modules from ebay.  I don't think the DFI ECU will pose any problem.  It's plug-N-play I think.

The KIPASS ECU will be different tho.  I don't know the process besides taking the bike to a shop that has KDS and having them sync/register it.  Do I need to replace my FOB's too or can my existing ones be "learned" by the replacement KIPASS ECU?

Can someone give me some info on what to expect or what I need to do?

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2017, 09:30:51 PM »
If you swap ECU and / or KiPass ECU, the bike will need to be attached to KDS and 'set straight'.

If you replace the KiPass ECU, you can still use your RFID fobs, again once the ignition switch housing circuity is programmed to recognize them but you will require the activation number for the RF (full function, battery operated, fobs) fobs, which almost no one ever has with existing fobs. No way to retreive the number from the old KiPass ECU either; you either have it written down or not and with most people, it is 'not'. As 2008's came with two RF fobs, you will most likely want to replace at least one, which is somewhat expensive at around $200+ for the hardware plus programming.

Brian

I have decided to get some modules from ebay.  I don't think the DFI ECU will pose any problem.  It's plug-N-play I think.

The KIPASS ECU will be different tho.  I don't know the process besides taking the bike to a shop that has KDS and having them sync/register it.  Do I need to replace my FOB's too or can my existing ones be "learned" by the replacement KIPASS ECU?

Can someone give me some info on what to expect or what I need to do?
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2017, 05:29:12 PM »
If you swap ECU and / or KiPass ECU, the bike will need to be attached to KDS and 'set straight'.

If you replace the KiPass ECU, you can still use your RFID fobs, again once the ignition switch housing circuity is programmed to recognize them but you will require the activation number for the RF (full function, battery operated, fobs) fobs, which almost no one ever has with existing fobs. No way to retreive the number from the old KiPass ECU either; you either have it written down or not and with most people, it is 'not'. As 2008's came with two RF fobs, you will most likely want to replace at least one, which is somewhat expensive at around $200+ for the hardware plus programming.

Brian


I got the bike used from a Dealer.  I didn't know about the KIPASS registration numbers so I didn't ask, I got 2 full function FOB's sans numbers.  So the FOB's that I have are now useless because the ECU that they were paired with is also useless.  I intend to replace the KIPASS ECU, purchase one new FOB, and pair them together using the new registration number that comes with the FOB.  Is that what has to be done or am I still missing something?

Offline just gone

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2017, 10:34:17 PM »
With any luck, the replacement KIPASS will come with at least one active FOB already registered. Don't toss your old FOBs
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but your old FOBs are only useless in the active mode. Each one should have an passive RFID chip in them which can be programmed to the replacement KIPASS ECU. Great backups to have on hand or at least back home to be expressed overnight to where ever you are stranded and FOB-less (for what ever reason).

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2017, 11:19:04 PM »
What Marty said.

Almost no one has the number that was on the package the fobs came in when they were new; I bought my bike new in '07 and never got those numbers.

But the RFID portion of the fob could be made to work on a different bike, and besides, they are keyed to the circuitry inside the ign. switch housing anyway, not the KiPass ECU.

Also, if you do buy a new KiPass ECU, it comes with one passive (RFID) and one active (RF) fob, or two active (RF) fobs anyway, depending on what year KiPass ECU you buy. And they are already coded to work with the ECU, though the passive part will have to have the bike coded to acknowledge them.

If you buy a used KiPass ECU, figure how many, if any, fobs come with it into the price. So perhaps $300 for a working ECU is not so bad if it comes with one active fob, and really not bad if it come with two. But perhaps $250 is high if it comes with no fobs at all. After all these years, they MUST be showing up in scrap yards by now; they should all be working regardless of what caused the bike's demise so they <should> be available I would think.

Best of luck.

Brian

I got the bike used from a Dealer.  I didn't know about the KIPASS registration numbers so I didn't ask, I got 2 full function FOB's sans numbers.  So the FOB's that I have are now useless because the ECU that they were paired with is also useless.  I intend to replace the KIPASS ECU, purchase one new FOB, and pair them together using the new registration number that comes with the FOB.  Is that what has to be done or am I still missing something?
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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2017, 08:56:17 PM »
I don't know if I should start a new thread or what.  I got used ECU's for KIPASS and DFI.  The KIPASS didn't come with a FOB and I am tempted to return it but I am intrigued by another option.  The links below belong to companies that do all sorts of things related to ignition controllers and such.  One is in Australia and the other in the Netherlands.  I have reached out to them to get more information.  Let's just see where this goes, shall we?

https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_page=index

http://ecumeistro.com/

Offline Tree

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ECU Replacement / Repair
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2017, 11:17:11 AM »
Update to a fairly frustrating problem.

My efforts related to getting my busted KIPASS ECU and DFI ECU repaired have fallen short at this time.  I found plenty of companies that repair immobilizer and fuel ECUs for automobiles and some that advertise motorcycle ECU repair (One is in the Netherlands and another in Australia).  I also found some INCONUS but none that want to or can do repairs- only registration/flashing.

So, here is what I have:

1. A KIPASS ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  The diode is accessible.  I have 2 Fobs linked to it.  Fixing this ECU is my most desired option.
2. A DFI ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  I trashed it in an attempt to get to the diode.  The tar that it is potted in proved too much to handle and I mangled it.
3. A KIPASS ECU purchased used from eBay.  I do not have any key Fobs for this ECU and I don't know if it actually works.
4. A DFI ECU purchased used from eBay.  I don't know if this works either.

I understand that without Fob-specific registration numbers I can't use my existing Fobs with a replacement KIPASS ECU and I don't have those numbers.  As a potential workaround I'm looking for a company that can, perhaps, link new Fobs to the used eBay KIPASS ECU (or use my existing Fobs?).  Then I can trailer my bike to the local Stealer to get it all synchronized using KDS3.  That's one possibility.  The other, much more expensive option, is to purchase a new KIPASS ECU / 2 FOB combo and have the Stealer set that up with KDS3.

If I have other options that you can think of I would like to hear about them.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: ECU Replacement / Repair
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2017, 11:27:19 AM »
You will not be able to use your existing RF fobs because you do not know the original registration number.

Also, without at least one valid fob, no new fobs can be added to the KiPass ECU. There are no work- arounds for this though about every 18 months, someone 'finds one' and reports it on the forum. After a bunch of tail- chasing..... nope, that one does not work either. The basic problem in the way is that the mfg. (Mitsubishi) provided no way around this 'no current fob, no new fob' feature of the system so third party hackers certainly cannot provide one.

Outside chance that you <may> be able to get the KiPass ECU installed into the bike with the KDS software and then you <may> be able to use the RFID portion of the system, with your existing fobs, to allow the system to be programmed to accept other RF fobs. This one is shaky and I have little confidence in it but it just may be a back door (Boys) method that works. Of course you will still need either new, or used RF fobs w/ the proper reference number that goes with them to use the system that way, with a fob being some feet away from the bike and KiPass ECU. Otherwise, you could continue to use the RFID chip in your existing fobs to unlock the system by holding them against the ignition switch housing each time you want to start the bike, provided the above stated method even allows the used KiPass ECU to be installed and recognized by the bike in the first place.

A final option with no working RF fobs but a working RFID fob is to glue the RFID chip to the boss on the ignition switch housing and then simply take the key out of the ignition when you leave the bike. This method will not allow you to lock the forks to the left, and you really should put some kind of cover over the ign. switch key opening or lots of rain will get in there but it does work.

Brian

Update to a fairly frustrating problem.

My efforts related to getting my busted KIPASS ECU and DFI ECU repaired have fallen short at this time.  I found plenty of companies that repair immobilizer and fuel ECUs for automobiles and some that advertise motorcycle ECU repair (One is in the Netherlands and another in Australia).  I also found some INCONUS but none that want to or can do repairs- only registration/flashing.

So, here is what I have:

1. A KIPASS ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  The diode is accessible.  I have 2 Fobs linked to it.  Fixing this ECU is my most desired option.
2. A DFI ECU with a shorted diode in the 12VDC input power circuit.  I trashed it in an attempt to get to the diode.  The tar that it is potted in proved too much to handle and I mangled it.
3. A KIPASS ECU purchased used from eBay.  I do not have any key Fobs for this ECU.
4. A DFI ECU purchased used from eBay.

I understand that without Fob-specific registration numbers I can't use my existing Fobs with a replacement KIPASS ECU and I don't have those numbers.  As a potential workaround I'm looking for a company that can, perhaps, link new Fobs to the used eBay KIPASS ECU (or use my existing Fobs?).  Then I can trailer my bike to the local Stealer to get it all synchronized using KDS3.  That's one possibility.  The other, much more expensive option, is to purchase a new KIPASS ECU / 2 FOB combo and have the Stealer set that up with KDS3.

If I have other options that you can think of I would like to hear about them.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2017, 11:44:17 AM »
I think I understand.  The transponder in the SLU will recognize the RF chip inside of my Fobs so I should be able to "unlock" and satisfy that portion of the immobilizer function.  What about the used eBay DFI ECU?  Wouldn't I still get an error when the KIPASS ECU queries the DFI?  That would still leave me with an immobile bike, right?  Please tell me I'm wrong, I can take it.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2017, 12:50:11 PM »
I do not <think> the ECU (the real ECU, or what you are calling the DFI I think) is going to be the problem with the hardware you have described.

The hinge point of how this is going to go is: Mitsubishi has purposefully made MISTY (the encryption and verification system that Kawasaki uses inside what they call KiPass) ECU inert once there are no more valid fobs available. This is for security purposes (and before the natives get all restless, I am not saying it is good or bad, needed or not, merely that that is what it is). So Mitsubishi has pretty much sewn up swapping the KiPass ECU without any valid fobs and then adding any. BUT, and this is a big but, there is a very slim chance that Kawasaki (not Mitsubishi in their MISTY system) has left a crack you can sneak through IF KiPass will allow the new KiPass ECU to be validated and programmed to work with the ignition switch security system, which is totally separate from the 'other' part of KiPass (the KiPass ECU and associated fobs, ect.) without a valid fob for the KiPass ECU. Now as I said, I kind of doubt this will really work but if it does, then your existing fobs can be used in the RFID mode to satisfy the KiPass ECU, through the CANbus link to the ign. switch. circuitry, that it has been authenticated and then you can program the KiPass ECU itself to recognize new fobs.

What I believe you are going to have to do is though is this: get and install a working ECU acceptable for your year C-14. Get a working KiPass ECU WITH at least one RF fob the KiPass ECU has been programmed to work with and install that. Then use or have someone else use the KDS software to validate all three units on the bike, ECU, KiPass ECU and Ignition switch housing validation circuitry, with each other so that both sides of KiPass, the actual RF ECU as well as the RFID ign. sw. housing circuit can validate the engine control ECU to actually start the bike.

So one of those two descriptions is what you will have to do, and I <think> it is going to be the second one but as I said, three is a chance you <may> be able to authenticate the newly installed KiPass ECU with the existing fob(s) that with authenticate the ign. switch housing security circuit.

KiPass (MISTY) is tough- not like 'dem 'dare wussy NSA, CIA or Credit bureau computers that hackers seem to violate at will.  ;D ;)

Brian

I think I understand.  The transponder in the SLU will recognize the RF chip inside of my Fobs so I should be able to "unlock" and satisfy that portion of the immobilizer function.  What about the used eBay DFI ECU?  Wouldn't I still get an error when the KIPASS ECU queries the DFI?  That would still leave me with an immobile bike, right?  Please tell me I'm wrong, I can take it.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Freddy

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Re: ECU Replacement / Repair
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2017, 06:06:30 PM »
Update to a fairly frustrating problem.

My efforts related to getting my busted KIPASS ECU and DFI ECU repaired have fallen short at this time.  I found plenty of companies that repair immobilizer and fuel ECUs for automobiles and some that advertise motorcycle ECU repair (One is in the Netherlands and another in Australia).  I also found some INCONUS but none that want to or can do repairs- only registration/flashing.
snip>


Perhaps you tried him but from what BDF says he can't do it.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-GTR1400-06-12-Key-Coding-Service-Lock-Set-ECU-ECM-Programming/262629449056?hash=item3d25ef5d60:g:BT4AAOxySfBR66Dx

A bike wrecker here is advertising a top triple clamp with lock, key, active & passive fobs.   I've emailed him to ask if he has the ECUs for you.  I'll PM you the answer if positive.

The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2017, 07:05:27 PM »
The DFI ecu is the least of your worries here. Just buy a used one that has the same PN as yours... 21175- (0131; 0368, etc) once you get the bike to the point that it could start, you'll need to use the kds unit to "recognize" the new dfi ecu. Easy peasy. I have a kds unit and have done this several times... I can run 2 different ecu's in my bike just by swapping them out. Steve

Offline Tree

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2017, 07:38:06 PM »
Perhaps you tried him but from what BDF says he can't do it.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kawasaki-GTR1400-06-12-Key-Coding-Service-Lock-Set-ECU-ECM-Programming/262629449056?hash=item3d25ef5d60:g:BT4AAOxySfBR66Dx

A bike wrecker here is advertising a top triple clamp with lock, key, active & passive fobs.   I've emailed him to ask if he has the ECUs for you.  I'll PM you the answer if positive.



Thanks Freddy!  I would have no problem with replacing everything with a known/operational set.  SLU, KIPASS ECU w/fobs, and DFI ECU. :chugbeer:

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2017, 07:41:14 AM »
Thanks Freddy!  I would have no problem with replacing everything with a known/operational set.  SLU, KIPASS ECU w/fobs, and DFI ECU. :chugbeer:
If you find what you need PM me with the price you are willing to pay and I will see if I can beat it.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2017, 08:16:19 PM »
If you have all the parts it would seem better if Tree gets em from you as the seller over here doesn't have the KIPASS ecu, which makes what he does have useless.

Question:  Is a used KIPASS ECU, fobs and key lock from a (wrecked) bike interchangeable between different years?  I believe some of the items have different p/n for year but would that preclude a full system changeover - as in an owner lost both fobs - with KDS3?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 09:08:13 PM by Freddy »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2017, 05:45:28 AM »
I do not believe so, not all years interchange. But I am not 100% certain.

The other problem, at least with early C-14's, is that those sold in the US did NOT have O2 sensors in them, while those sold elsewhere did. And so the ECU's are different, even in the same year, 2008 models, for example. Also, the KiPass system is on a different frequency in the US vs. the the rest of the world, I believe we use 315 MHz, while non- US bikes use 435 (I think) MHz. Which means that while the KiPass ECU may work on the bike, the tire pressure sensors will not be read by the KiPass ECU and so they will not work.

Personally, I would just avoid swapping between countries because there are known differences, plus there could well be other, unknown, differences such as how the pulse stream sent to the speedo, tach. Because non- US bikes use KPH, it might be that crossing the two systems could end up with the needles on those gauges pointing to the wrong rotation point, meaning both vehicle and engines speed could be off, and possibly WAY off.

Brian

If you have all the parts it would seem better if Tree gets em from you as the seller over here doesn't have the KIPASS ecu, which makes what he does have useless.

Question:  Is a used KIPASS ECU, fobs and key lock from a (wrecked) bike interchangeable between different years?  I believe some of the items have different p/n for year but would that preclude a full system changeover - as in an owner lost both fobs - with KDS3?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Freddy

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Re: Stator Problem?
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2017, 05:43:19 PM »
Great info thanks Brian.  Though I'm aware of the difference I hadn't thought of the TPMS frequency issue. 
The best substitute for brains is .............what?