Author Topic: We're doomed  (Read 15792 times)

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2017, 09:27:57 PM »
Here's your statistics on births to unwed mothers.  40% .  Draw your own conclusions.

Wow, that is even more than what I thought it was.  Look at what has happened in just our lifetimes (well, some of us, anyway... I didn't see that first metric, myself):

1960 5%
1970 11%
1980 18%
1990 28%
2000 32%
2010 41%

Births to unwed non-hispanic-black mothers was a jaw-dropping 73% in 2010.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Classvino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Country: ca
  • Longtime Kawi Rider
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2017, 10:55:37 AM »
And that won't happen until it becomes a little less acceptable for unwed "children" having children.  Because currently you can't punish/correct the parent(s) without it punishing the children.  The "solutions" are harsh and will never be acceptable- such as saying "sure, you can have welfare, but only if you get forced birth control and we take away the children you already have."

...you can't turn off the money because it will hurt "save the children."...

Yup. And then it'll be the fault of those trying to "fix" the problem, not those causing it.  Same old, same old...

Certainly a problem with no easy solution...  As much a psychological issue as a financial one when you get right down to it.  How do you change the mindset of any group that has been conditioned to "adopt" a "successful" way of  earning  getting enough money to live on with little or no effort?  It's that whole "attitude of entitlement" thing...  They've learned to think that they 'deserve' it. And we (well, not we personally, but as a society) have done little concrete to disabuse them of the notion.

Not sure if/when it'll happen, but someday the welfare program might bankrupt the providers to the point where it'll have to be discontinued. Can't imagine what'd happen then... Or don't want to imagine it anyway.  It wouldn't be good.

(And just to be clear, I'm not picking on unwed mothers or any particular racial group. The issue might be more prevalent is some sections of society, but certainly happens outside those groups as well.  I'm an equal opportunity complainer.)

Jamie
2013 C14 - First "new" bike
1983 CB1100F, 1977 GS850, 1974 KH750 H2, 1974 KH500 H1, 1975 KH400 S3, 1979 RD 400 Daytona......

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2017, 11:34:00 AM »
Yup. And then it'll be the fault of those trying to "fix" the problem, not those causing it.  Same old, same old...

Certainly a problem with no easy solution...  As much a psychological issue as a financial one when you get right down to it.  How do you change the mindset of any group that has been conditioned to "adopt" a "successful" way of  earning  getting enough money to live on with little or no effort?  It's that whole "attitude of entitlement" thing...  They've learned to think that they 'deserve' it. And we (well, not we personally, but as a society) have done little concrete to disabuse them of the notion.

Not sure if/when it'll happen, but someday the welfare program might bankrupt the providers to the point where it'll have to be discontinued. Can't imagine what'd happen then... Or don't want to imagine it anyway.  It wouldn't be good.

(And just to be clear, I'm not picking on unwed mothers or any particular racial group. The issue might be more prevalent is some sections of society, but certainly happens outside those groups as well.  I'm an equal opportunity complainer.)

Jamie
There's been a plan for that for some time....


Cloward–Piven strategy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with a national system of "a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty".


If for some reason you want to read more... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

Offline Rhino

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3963
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2017, 12:27:53 PM »
There's been a plan for that for some time....


Cloward–Piven strategy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with a national system of "a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty distributing poverty equally to everyone"[/b.


If for some reason you want to read more... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

FIFY

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2017, 01:21:07 PM »
You should make that correction on Wiki....  :thumbs:

Offline Classvino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Country: ca
  • Longtime Kawi Rider
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2017, 01:39:01 PM »
Hmmmm....

So let me paraphrase what I just read...  (admittedly my point of view may be slanted somewhat, never having received any monies from the government that I didn't either give them ahead of time, or was expected to pay back..)

"We'll tax the people that make more than a certain arbitrary minimum income (that work hard for what they're getting), to establish a fund, or pool or money, which we will then give to the people that aren't earning enough to meet a the same arbitrary minimum income, and this will (magically) eliminate poverty."   (Italics are me just being sarcastically dumbfounded...)

Now, lets set this arbitrary minimum at 25k (for lack of a better number to play with, that's about double the US poverty line about half the US median wage)

Let's also assume that someone (say middle-lower class income) is making 40k, working 40 hours a week (still less than the median), trying to save some for retirement, and paying work related costs (transportation, clothing, daycare, etc.)   Why wouldn't they just take the 25k, and not worry about those costs, or working, or retirement (since it goes on forever, maybe called something else in their old age...)

How is that different from what we have?  Except that unemployed Moe would get a little more, and maybe Larry and Curly would see the irony of working to make just a little more than what they'd give them anyway?  How could that possibly positively affect society? I can see producers and retailers having to pay higher wages, since there'd need to be higher incentive to work, driving up costs of goods and services, necessitating an increase in the arbitrary minimum income, causing producers and retailers to have to pay higher wages, since there'd need to be higher incentive to work, driving up costs of goods and services, necessitating an increase in the arbitrary minimum income, causing..   well you see how it might go...

It boils back down to attitude and work ethic.  You're taxing the (comparatively) rich, and giving it to the poor.  Reminds me of the 60s protests that (maybe tongue in cheek) said Eat The Rich.

Ten Years After said it 45 years ago : "Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more"  but I don't think they envisioned a world where we were all equally poor...

Jamie

(I think I should probably bow out of this conversation... It's cutting into my work time, as well as having a negative effect on my blood pressure...  :( )
2013 C14 - First "new" bike
1983 CB1100F, 1977 GS850, 1974 KH750 H2, 1974 KH500 H1, 1975 KH400 S3, 1979 RD 400 Daytona......

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2017, 03:29:57 PM »
Is this your 'aha' moment with the twisted 'logic' of the Amerikan left?

Offline Conrad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5822
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2017, 06:08:46 AM »
Related to my original post.

After a huge brawl last week, the Fox Valley Mall in Aurora (IL) is implementing a new policy banning unescorted teenagers on designated high-traffic days. Mall managers say that on days the Parental Escort Policy is in effect, no one under 18 will be admitted unless accompanied by someone 21 or older.

Each adult must show identification and can supervise up to four young people. The move comes after a brawl on the day after Christmas when some 75 police officers were called to break up a large fight that resulted in eight arrests.
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Classvino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Country: ca
  • Longtime Kawi Rider
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2017, 09:15:09 AM »
Is this your 'aha' moment with the twisted 'logic' of the Amerikan left?

Not the first, though I'd never heard of the Cloward–Piven strategy before.  I like the first half of their idea, the one aout overloading and then scrapping the current welfare system.  Just not too happy with what they plan to replace it with.

Left is Left anywhere.  I don't think your 'left' is as bad as some I read aout around the world... France comes to mind...

In Canada, our Liberal party is slightly more left than your Democrats, I think.  Although it may just seem like that since there are fewer protesters...

And then there's the NDP. Waaayyy left in most of their policies...

But I guess that Canada generally  is a little less on the 'right' end of the political spectrum than y'all.

Jamie
2013 C14 - First "new" bike
1983 CB1100F, 1977 GS850, 1974 KH750 H2, 1974 KH500 H1, 1975 KH400 S3, 1979 RD 400 Daytona......

Offline Classvino

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Country: ca
  • Longtime Kawi Rider
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2017, 09:17:22 AM »
Related to my original post.

After a huge brawl last week, the Fox Valley Mall in Aurora (IL) is implementing a new policy banning unescorted teenagers on designated high-traffic days. Mall managers say that on days the Parental Escort Policy is in effect, no one under 18 will be admitted unless accompanied by someone 21 or older.

Each adult must show identification and can supervise up to four young people. The move comes after a brawl on the day after Christmas when some 75 police officers were called to break up a large fight that resulted in eight arrests.

Sorry - got way off topic there...

Though I don't blame the malls for their policies, it's a shame that innocents have to be affected by the actions of the "mob" of miscreants that caused this...

Jamie
2013 C14 - First "new" bike
1983 CB1100F, 1977 GS850, 1974 KH750 H2, 1974 KH500 H1, 1975 KH400 S3, 1979 RD 400 Daytona......

Offline Conrad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5822
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2017, 09:34:04 AM »
Sorry - got way off topic there...

Though I don't blame the malls for their policies, it's a shame that innocents have to be affected by the actions of the "mob" of miscreants that caused this...

Jamie

No apology needed. I've been enjoying the direction of this thread. If one can enjoy such a thing that is.    ;)
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2017, 10:41:41 AM »
Not as bad as watching a kidnapping and torture so enjoy away.  :)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2898
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2017, 01:33:56 PM »
Related to my original post.

After a huge brawl last week, the Fox Valley Mall in Aurora (IL) is implementing a new policy banning unescorted teenagers on designated high-traffic days. Mall managers say that on days the Parental Escort Policy is in effect, no one under 18 will be admitted unless accompanied by someone 21 or older.

Each adult must show identification and can supervise up to four young people. The move comes after a brawl on the day after Christmas when some 75 police officers were called to break up a large fight that resulted in eight arrests.

Same thing happened here in Cleveland last week.... only there were almost 500 kids involved in the "flash mob", same rules are being implemented also, I say simply take every cell phone from every kid you grab, and smash it so social media can disperse its own demise....
It seems to all stem from kids making these plans on line....

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2017, 03:22:39 PM »
Though I don't blame the malls for their policies, it's a shame that innocents have to be affected by the actions of the "mob" of miscreants that caused this...

That is the truth with just about everything in modern "society."  Everything gets dumbed-down and restricted to the least-common-denominator.  Can be very frustrating.  And when we treat people like that (remove rights, treat them as irresponsible, don't allow failure), they tend to continue to act like children forever because they aren't EXPECTED to act properly anymore.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Nosmo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
  • Country: us
  • "We're all in this together." - Red Green
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2017, 05:45:49 PM »
If they want to fight and brawl...well....let them.

The next giant sports stadium that come up for demolition because it is outdated should instead be turned into a Coliseum in the old Roman sense.  Everybody who wants to brawl gets tossed in.

Oh, but there won't be any tax-payer supported medical facilites.  Survivors are on their own.

Oh, wait didn't they make that movie already?
A life undreamed is a waste.  A dream unlived is a sin.

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2017, 05:51:00 PM »

Offline rrsperry

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2017, 01:35:15 PM »
I really can't believe you all think that it's the people on welfare that make your taxes "too high"...

The budget is like Thanksgiving dinner. Three HUGE portions of Turkey, Stuffing, and Mashed potatoes, with 3 little peas and 1 slice of carrot.

(Social Security, Military Spending and Medicare/Medicaid being the big three, with everything else being the peas and carrot.)

Exactly why do we need to have a military that we spend more than the next 9 countries combined?

Didn't D.D. Eisenhower really warn us to beware the military/industrial complex in the late 50's? If you aren't going to fight a war to win, why bother being a glorified police force? (we haven't tried to win since 1945)

Social Security was never intended to replace employer defined benefits retirement and personal savings. It was intended to prevent old people from dying in abject poverty. Not as a method used to play for another 30 years. (or in the case of disability insurance, make up for outsourcing, automation, and general unemployment.)

But blaming welfare is myopic and fails to address the real elephants in the room. Just saying...
No matter where you go, there you are...

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2017, 03:28:11 PM »
The more general word is 'entitlements', which are basically contracts that were entered into with fixed input / output but a changing population has made them untenable.

As far as the military goes, I believe you have to think of it differently now than before the end of WWII. Today, military power along with economic presence and stability are used as tools to gain international influence, not win outright, full scale wars. So the real question becomes, at least in my mind, is how much are we spending on, for example, the military, and what are we getting back for that expense? It is a complex question but it shows up pretty readily in places like gasoline stations; ask any European what gasoline costs them and then try to balance that against our military cost (and I am including death and injury in the word 'cost'). And the really ironic part of all of this is that we are spending a HUGE sum of money on items that we will not / can not use; that is basically what caused, or at least really fueled, WWI: countries had so much of their GDP tied up in arms that would 'go bad' (become obsolete, actually deteriorate and so forth) that had to join in the war to have their previous couple of decade expenditures work for them.

Then again, I think things are really pretty good, at least in the first- world. Each decade since the industrial revolution has seen our average amount of work going down with our average consumption rising; in fact in the last 100 years or so, skyrocketing. I mean c'mon, heated clothing for motorcycles really sucked before the 1970s (it was called more thermal underwear and gritted teeth).  ;D

Brian

I really can't believe you all think that it's the people on welfare that make your taxes "too high"...

The budget is like Thanksgiving dinner. Three HUGE portions of Turkey, Stuffing, and Mashed potatoes, with 3 little peas and 1 slice of carrot.

(Social Security, Military Spending and Medicare/Medicaid being the big three, with everything else being the peas and carrot.)

Exactly why do we need to have a military that we spend more than the next 9 countries combined?

Didn't D.D. Eisenhower really warn us to beware the military/industrial complex in the late 50's? If you aren't going to fight a war to win, why bother being a glorified police force? (we haven't tried to win since 1945)

Social Security was never intended to replace employer defined benefits retirement and personal savings. It was intended to prevent old people from dying in abject poverty. Not as a method used to play for another 30 years. (or in the case of disability insurance, make up for outsourcing, automation, and general unemployment.)

But blaming welfare is myopic and fails to address the real elephants in the room. Just saying...
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2017, 06:12:25 PM »
I believe my taxes are to high but I'd rather feed a soldier than a pos hoodrat bum.


I really can't believe you all think that it's the people on welfare that make your taxes "too high"...

The budget is like Thanksgiving dinner. Three HUGE portions of Turkey, Stuffing, and Mashed potatoes, with 3 little peas and 1 slice of carrot.

(Social Security, Military Spending and Medicare/Medicaid being the big three, with everything else being the peas and carrot.)

Exactly why do we need to have a military that we spend more than the next 9 countries combined?

Didn't D.D. Eisenhower really warn us to beware the military/industrial complex in the late 50's? If you aren't going to fight a war to win, why bother being a glorified police force? (we haven't tried to win since 1945)

Social Security was never intended to replace employer defined benefits retirement and personal savings. It was intended to prevent old people from dying in abject poverty. Not as a method used to play for another 30 years. (or in the case of disability insurance, make up for outsourcing, automation, and general unemployment.)

But blaming welfare is myopic and fails to address the real elephants in the room. Just saying...

Offline rrsperry

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: We're doomed
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2017, 06:54:08 PM »
What has the price of gasoline in Europe got to do with this? Europeans choose to tax gasoline at a high rate. They fund public transportation and have well maintained roads. They drive small, fuel efficient, and sometimes fun cars...

We practically don't tax gas, our vehicles guzzle fuel, and have crap roads. I guess it's priorities.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 08:04:38 PM by rrsperry »
No matter where you go, there you are...