Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Poseidon on September 27, 2018, 04:27:11 PM
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Received email today from Kawasaki. I wonder what new models are being released. Any Concours updates maybe?
NEW MODELS TO DEBUT AT AIMEXPO
Mark your calendars. Exciting new models are set to launch at AIMExpo on October 11th in Las Vegas, Nevada. Follow our social media for real-time coverage.
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At least one is a KLR replacement.
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I seriously doubt there will be any Concours 14, much less an updated one. That super charged monstrosity is the replacement and I think that thing is a joke because if I called my insurance company for insurance on a 228hp $27k bike, I would likely hear a lot of laughter on the other line.
But, getting back to topic, no C14.
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But, getting back to topic, no C14.
The questions are will there be a Concours or a replacement for the GTR1400/Concours14 or neither. We already know that the H2 SX is not a replacement (and it is actually 171hp, not 228 http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/032018-2018-Kawasaki-Ninja-H2-SX-hp-torque-dyno-633x450.png (http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/032018-2018-Kawasaki-Ninja-H2-SX-hp-torque-dyno-633x450.png) ) and is not a Concours/GTR. It is also likely the C14 as we know it now might be gone. But, there is a small chance that there could be a gen3 of C14, or something else called a "Concours"/"GTR". It would be a true/huge loss after a 32 year tradition.
We don't have long to wait at this point. Just 13 days.
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To keep up in the sport touring market they need to add ride by wire with cc and optional? ESA and LED lighting. IE 2018 FJR. Doesn't seem that much of stretch.
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I added cc and auto turn signals to my bike, no need for wheels. Since Mcruise came out with cc for the c14, the Aussie dollar has been plummeting steadily. Where once it cost over $1000, you can get one for under $800.
And, unlike some oem systems, will work in any gear, down to 22 mph.The only way any cc could work better would be if it were adaptive .
Back to topic , I think the days of high power sport tourers are numbered. I was thinking of adding a guzzi to my stable but they replaced their st with a cruiser.
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To keep up in the sport touring market they need to add ride by wire with cc and optional ESA and LED lighting.
Agreed. LED headlights and all other lights, ride-by-wire, cruise, ride modes (not necessarily suspension, but performance/engine), and possibly updated computer display (larger/higher/res/more function/color). Those are really the only 4 or 5 main things the C14 needs that it lacks. None of which is all that difficult or expensive.
IE 2018 FJR. Doesn't seem that much of stretch.
It really isn't much of a stretch. What is interesting is to see what, if anything happens to the ZX14R for 2019. The C14 was dropped in the non-North American markets, already, in 2018. The supposed main issue in all this is compliance with recent EU pollution controls. And, yet, that would be a snap on the C14, since they already did it on the ZX14R! The recent C14 even already has the O2 sensor for ALL markets.
Back to topic , I think the days of high power sport tourers are numbered.
You are probably right. The market was already small, and possibly shrinking.
Off-topic, but interesting: in Canada, many of the 2018's, including Concours has an included extra year of warranty right now (so for ONLY the Concours, it is 4 years total; 2 years on others).
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I don’t understand everyone’s facination with riding modes. It is just one more expensive part to possibly go bad and have to be replaced. The C14 already has 2 riding modes. How many do you really want / need? I have never used eco mode. Don’t understand why it needs it. It is a motorcycle! It already gets better mileage than all but the electrics and hybrids even when you ride it hard all day. If an extra couple of MPGs is going to make or break you, you probably picked the wrong bike.
Ride by wire? Same deal. One more unnecessary part that could possibly go bad and just a reason for them to charge more for essentially the same bike.
Don’t even get me started on that POS adaptive cruise control. I have it on my work car and it may sound good in therory, but it has almost got me rear ended on the interstate several times when it suddenly “sees” a vehicle in the right lane while I am in the left lane and decides we should suddenly slow down fast. I don’t need a vehicle making decisions for me and I damn sure don’t need a bike that tries to kill me. There are enough idiots on the road trying to do that as it is!!!
Any bike with adaptive cruise will NEVER be in my stable! Normally, I would say never say never, but I feel strongly about this. Enough to say I would quit riding before I would support a company that would put riders lives in danger the way adaptive cruise would.
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“I don’t understand everyone’s facination with riding modes. It is just one more expensive part to possibly go bad and have to be replaced. The C14 already has 2 riding modes. How many do you really want / need? I have never used eco mode. Don’t understand why it needs it. It is a motorcycle! It already gets better mileage than all but the electrics and hybrids even when you ride it hard all day. If an extra couple of MPGs is going to make or break you, you probably picked the wrong bike. “
You must not ride further than the local donut shop. The C14 has a small tank, this limits range. Rather than try to make a bigger tank ( not practical), they added this extra mode. Btw, the mode did not add any weight, it’s all software. Some of travel far, and across great spanses of land where you might not see a gas station in an hour ( southern Utah, I’m talking about you!) I’m on a current ride
And I like have to make fewer stops for fuel. I could care less about the. $ saved, I just want to make
good time and not run out of fuel.25 minutes lane splitting in stop and go traffic
And a nice thing about cc is that it gives even better mpg . Yesterday I rode 400 miles, averaging around 78 mph, got 50.1 mpg.
And that was on crap California 91 gas.
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I don’t understand everyone’s facination with riding modes. It is just one more expensive part to possibly go bad and have to be replaced. The C14 already has 2 riding modes. How many do you really want / need?
Well, it isn't expensive (actually costs zero) and there are no parts and nothing to break. It is nothing but having more maps to select from. I can see how it could be useful. For example, one set of maps (think "Flash") could be with aggressive engine breaking, and another with normal, and another with little.
I have never used eco mode [FEAM]. Don’t understand why it needs it. It is a motorcycle! It already gets better mileage than all but the electrics and hybrids even when you ride it hard all day. If an extra couple of MPGs is going to make or break you, you probably picked the wrong bike.
FEAM is useful for when you do need to stretch out your mileage on long trips. I rarely use it, since I don't take many long trips. But it is handy at times. And actually, the "touring" part of sport touring does greatly depend on range (which is why one of our complaints has consistently been "if only the tank were a little larger").
Ride by wire? Same deal. One more unnecessary part that could possibly go bad and just a reason for them to charge more for essentially the same bike.
Ride by wire (electronic throttle) would instantly add cruise control (at zero cost), it would eliminate throttle cables and the need for their adjustment or lubrication and eventual replacement from wear, and it would likely remove the need for the entire secondary throttles assembly (because it would be mostly redundant). So it would actually result in far fewer parts and, thus, less expense than what we have now. Which also means it is likely more reliable, too. There is no avoiding this, all vehicles will have it. But it is a good thing (now that the technology is proven, effective, and reliable).
Don’t even get me started on that POS adaptive cruise control.
That, I hate, and never use it on my car (I have to intentionally turn it off EVERY TIME so I can have conventional cruise). I find it annoying and dangerous and would never want that on a motorcycle.
Any bike with adaptive cruise will NEVER be in my stable!
Unless it were designed correctly, so the "adaptive" part could be turned off, so it is normal cruise control, like I can on my G37S (which has adaptive as an optional function). I have no problem with optional things (modes, settings, etc), as long as I can retain control over them (and control that preferably is "sticky" (persistent) )
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You must not ride further than the local donut shop. The C14 has a small tank, this limits range. Rather than try to make a bigger tank ( not practical), they added this extra mode. Btw, the mode did not add any weight, it’s all software. Some of travel far, and across great spanses of land where you might not see a gas station in an hour ( southern Utah, I’m talking about you!) I’m on a current ride
And I like have to make fewer stops for fuel. I could care less about the. $ saved, I just want to make
good time and not run out of fuel.25 minutes lane splitting in stop and go traffic
And a nice thing about cc is that it gives even better mpg . Yesterday I rode 400 miles, averaging around 78 mph, got 50.1 mpg.
And that was on crap California 91 gas.
If you prefer the super slab, you may be correct. I prefer taking the back roads out to the mountains. Smiles per gallon are more important to me. No donut shop trips here either. Most of my rides are 300 - 400 miles also, but it is thru small towns and back roads, then some spirited riding on the twisted mountain roads. I guess you could say I like the sport touring vs just touring on a sport bike. I bought the Councours for a comfortable ride to the mountains and back, along with some performance and handling once I get there. If I’m strickly going long distances, I have my Magnum for that. Better storage and a much more comfortable ride.
On the eastern half of the US, you are going to be hard pressed to ever find yourself an hour from a gas station. 2-3 hours ride between fill ups is perfectly acceptable to me. I’m ready for a break and need to rehydrate by then anyway. Additional range, either from a bigger tank or better fuel mileage is not what I need.
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Well, it isn't expensive (actually costs zero) and there are no parts and nothing to break. It is nothing but having more maps to select from. I can see how it could be useful. For example, one set of maps (think "Flash") could be with aggressive engine breaking, and another with normal, and another with little.
Regardless if it cost the manufacturer anything or not, the MSRP will go up once they add it. It takes different ECU to run, switch, and store those extra maps. If the ones on our bikes could do it, there would be software downloads available to make them able to do it now. There will also end up being some form of control unit to allow the rider to switch between those maps. Most likely tied to some form of screen which also will not be cheaper than the analog gauges we currently have. Most importantly for me, none of the maps the factory adds as options are going to offer the performance an aftermarket tune / flash is going to offer. It most likely will make it more difficult for aftermarket tuners to be able to be able to flash it and thus making those more expensive as well.
FEAM is useful for when you do need to stretch out your mileage on long trips. I rarely use it, since I don't take many long trips. But it is handy at times. And actually, the "touring" part of sport touring does greatly depend on range (which is why one of our complaints has consistently been "if only the tank were a little larger").
See my response in my last post above.
Ride by wire (electronic throttle) would instantly add cruise control (at zero cost), it would eliminate throttle cables and the need for their adjustment or lubrication and eventual replacement from wear, and it would likely remove the need for the entire secondary throttles assembly (because it would be mostly redundant). So it would actually result in far fewer parts and, thus, less expense than what we have now. Which also means it is likely more reliable, too. There is no avoiding this, all vehicles will have it. But it is a good thing (now that the technology is proven, effective, and reliable).
Electronics are never going to be more reliable than a simple throttle cable. Less maintance, sure. I agree with you there. Servos on the throttle bodies, cheap plastic parts, wiring, connectors, and even the electronics in the grip / throttle itself are all potential points of failure. Not to mention the inability to change grips to aftermarket if you so choose. Give it more time, and you will start hearing people complaining about failures in the throttle by wire systems and the cost involved with replacement parts. My wife’s Spyder has it and after changing her grips over to the OEM heated grips, I can already see where potential points of failure are.
That, I hate, and never use it on my car (I have to intentionally turn it off EVERY TIME so I can have conventional cruise). I find it annoying and dangerous and would never want that on a motorcycle.
Unless it were designed correctly, so the "adaptive" part could be turned off, so it is normal cruise control, like I can on my G37S (which has adaptive as an optional function). I have no problem with optional things (modes, settings, etc), as long as I can retain control over them (and control that preferably is "sticky" (persistent) )
My work car is a Honda Accord Touring. The adaptive part of the cruise control can not be turned off. You either use it as adaptive or not at all. It sucks!!!
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Sorry, I don’t know the east coast so I don’t have the convenience of lots of gas stations . I do have the finest areas to ride in the country, perhaps you have heard of the Rockies, Sierra Nevada? Or those little mountain roads with Redwood and sequoia trees?
Simply adding parts or improvements to a bike doesn’t mean they will raise the price . Big business doesn’t price like a kid running a lemonade stand; they use market research to price.
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Regardless if it cost the manufacturer anything or not, the MSRP will go up once they add it. It takes different ECU to run, switch, and store those extra maps.
It would be about $1 worth of additional EEEPROM or Flash storage. Any redesign would be a new ECU, so that is just a given.
There will also end up being some form of control unit to allow the rider to switch between those maps. Most likely tied to some form of screen which also will not be cheaper than the analog gauges we currently have.
OK, $5 for a rotary control to add to our single button. Again, something that would be added anyway with a design.
Most importantly for me, none of the maps the factory adds as options are going to offer the performance an aftermarket tune / flash is going to offer.
Of course not, but now we would have many more slots that could be custom flashed :)
It most likely will make it more difficult for aftermarket tuners to be able to be able to flash it and thus making those more expensive as well.
It would be more difficult, but not necessarily more expensive. The cost of the reflashing is mostly opportunity cost (fixed).
Electronics are never going to be more reliable than a simple throttle cable. Less maintance, sure. I agree with you there. Servos on the throttle bodies[...]
There are already all those servoes and wiring and parts- on the secondaries that are being replaced/removed! Again, it is a zero-sum minimum on the Concours. Perhaps not on some other engine that doesn't already have secondary throttle plates already being controlled by a computer
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Simply adding parts or improvements to a bike doesn’t mean they will raise the price . Big business doesn’t price like a kid running a lemonade stand; they use market research to price.
+1
There are some real/hard costs, but adding or upgrading most "features" don't really have any real cost. The cost is in the retooling, research, and design. And with a typical new model, they are already doing all that anyway. They aren't likely going to do all that to the existing C14, but would for some totally new model that would replace it.
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Simply adding parts or improvements to a bike doesn’t mean they will raise the price . Big business doesn’t price like a kid running a lemonade stand; they use market research to price.
Good luck with that! Kawasaki added a supercharger to a ZX10 and doubled the price. FJR1300 has the options everyone is talking about and it MSRPs at what, $2000 or $3000 more than the Concours? But you are probably right... the price shouldn’t go up. (Sarcasm - just in case you missed it)
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My work car is a Honda Accord Touring. The adaptive part of the cruise control can not be turned off. You either use it as adaptive or not at all. It sucks!!!
Hijack alert: Poseidon,
I have a 2017 Accord Hybrid Touring and can turn off the ACC. The manual has a long list of when to not use it. I doubt that would have changed that much prior to or after the '17 model year. Here's a link to the '17 owners manual, go to page 449 for the ACC info. http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AT2A1717OM/enu/AT2A1717OM.PDF (http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AT2A1717OM/enu/AT2A1717OM.PDF)
Leo
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Good luck with that! Kawasaki added a supercharger to a ZX10 and doubled the price. FJR1300 has the options everyone is talking about and it MSRPs at what, $2000 or $3000 more than the Concours? But you are probably right... the price shouldn’t go up. (Sarcasm - just in case you missed it)
I won’t attempt to explain some basic microecon principles to you. Yamaha prices their products where they are because that’s where they sell for maximum profit. There is a formula to describe it
but you’d probably not understand it.
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I won’t attempt to explain some basic microecon principles to you. Yamaha prices their products where they are because that’s where they sell for maximum profit. There is a formula to describe it
but you’d probably not understand it.
Whatever makes you feel better buddy... that’s the beauty of the internet. You can pretend you are whoever you want to be and can make an ass... I mean assumptions about everyone else. Right?
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Hijack alert: Poseidon,
I have a 2017 Accord Hybrid Touring and can turn off the ACC. The manual has a long list of when to not use it. I doubt that would have changed that much prior to or after the '17 model year. Here's a link to the '17 owners manual, go to page 449 for the ACC info. http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AT2A1717OM/enu/AT2A1717OM.PDF (http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AT2A1717OM/enu/AT2A1717OM.PDF)
Leo
Thanks! I’ll check it out. Mine is a 2016. I could be wrong, but I don’t think it can be turned off. I asked at the dealership and was told it couldn’t be. I’ll check my manual again to see it there is anything in it.
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A '16 should be almost identical to a '17 (I think), the major redesign happened in '18. Page 460 of my manual says to press the "interval" button for one second to switch from ACC to standard cruise control. The interval button is the right side of d-pad with set and resume functions just to the right of the center cancel button. The symbol is a car with some lines behind it. The dash display will change from "ACC" to "CRUISE MODE". Press the button again for one second and it goes back to ACC. I think the setting is persistent when restarting the car but I don't use the cruise much as I'm not on an open highway much so not 100% sure on that.
Just tapping that button changes between the 4 ACC car spacing interval settings; short, medium, long & extra long.
Leo
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Thanks! I’ll check it out. Mine is a 2016. I could be wrong, but I don’t think it can be turned off. I asked at the dealership and was told it couldn’t be. I’ll check my manual again to see it there is anything in it.
On my G37S, it requires holding the "on" button for like a ridiculous 3 seconds to change modes (adaptive off, short range, medium range, long range). Otherwise (just pressing it normally/quickly), it defaults to all the laser-guided adaptive stuff "on" and at long range (which is REALLY long). And it is not sticky, so it has to be done every single time. Quite annoying. But at least it is an option. I would be surprised if you didn't have some type of "off".
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geez, talk about distracted driving....I wonder how we lived so long without all these geefaws and gadgets?
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geez, talk about distracted driving....I wonder how we lived so long without all these geefaws and gadgets?
Don't you realize, we weren't "living"! Were were just "existing"... :stirpot: :rotflmao:
Real telephone operators, rotary phones, party lines! Oh the humanity! :o ;D
Now that I've helped totally derail this thread.... :offtopic:
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Hijack alert: Poseidon,
I have a 2017 Accord Hybrid Touring and can turn off the ACC. The manual has a long list of when to not use it. I doubt that would have changed that much prior to or after the '17 model year. Here's a link to the '17 owners manual, go to page 449 for the ACC info. http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AT2A1717OM/enu/AT2A1717OM.PDF (http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AT2A1717OM/enu/AT2A1717OM.PDF)
Leo
This was the best hijack ever!!!
Thank you for the info! It worked! Pushed and held the button that adjusts the following distance and it switched over to “Cruise Mode”. Now my cruise control works correctly and doesn’t try to kill me! Lol
I can’t believe I didn’t see that section of the manual as many times as I’ve looked for a way to disable the adaptive part. I also can’t believe the service guys didn’t know how to do it when I asked.
Thanks again!
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This was the best hijack ever!!!
Thank you for the info! It worked! Pushed and held the button that adjusts the following distance and it switched over to “Cruise Mode”. Now my cruise control works correctly and doesn’t try to kill me! Lol
I can’t believe I didn’t see that section of the manual as many times as I’ve looked for a way to disable the adaptive part. I also can’t believe the service guys didn’t know how to do it when I asked.
Thanks again!
:banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana
Fify
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You're welcome. Glad it worked for you. :D
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If anyone is interested, Kawasaki released the 2019 lineup today. There is a 2019 Concours. Looks like a new combination of the same colors they have used in the past with no other updates mentioned.
(https://content.kawasaki.com/Content/Uploads/Products/7935/Colors/2menf1ma.x5v.png?w=640)
Here is a link to the full lineup for 2019.
https://m.kawasaki.com/experience/newfeaturedvehicles (https://m.kawasaki.com/experience/newfeaturedvehicles)
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Not sure I like the paint scheme for the ‘19, id have to see in person .
But that 900 retro green cafe bike is gorgeous !
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Yay! I guess it will hang in there another year (along with the ZX14)!
LOL- it looks like they took the 2018, painted it to match the 2011 Atomic Silver but without the gloss, and swapped in a black gas tank and front partial fairing, then threw in the 2017/2018 green pinstripe. Me thinks someone was torn between black and silver! I am guessing nothing changed but color. I can't say I like that color combination, but I don't hate it either.
https://www.kawasaki.com/products/2019-Concours-14-ABS?cm_re=MPP-_-PRODUCTTRIMLIST-_-VEHICLEDETAILS (https://www.kawasaki.com/products/2019-Concours-14-ABS?cm_re=MPP-_-PRODUCTTRIMLIST-_-VEHICLEDETAILS)
So this gives them even more time to contemplate the creation of the next-generation Concours (while the non-North-Americans continue to lament the passing of the C14).
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I guess you’ll love that color combo if you’re a Raiders fan. Looks like they had a choice of two colors, couldn’t decide and said “F*ck it. Let’s do both.” Not much of a choice for a new customer. Bring back the green monster!
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That dark strip on the fairing that says “Kawasaki” looks like a carbon fiber decal-yuck.It’s the cheesiest sticker put on bike since the days when Honda would put a chrome sticker on the night hawk.
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Looks like they had a choice of two colors, couldn’t decide and said “F*ck it. Let’s do both.”
More likely they are assembling 2019s with excess spare parts and went with those parts pre-painted that they had the most of on hand. They probably made too many spare parts and when sales were lower than expected, their bean counting algorithm said they needed to dump some into the production run.
That dark strip on the fairing that says “Kawasaki” looks like a carbon fiber decal-yuck. It’s the cheesiest sticker put on bike....
I hope it comes off as easy as the old one did, and doesn't ruin the paint underneath it when it does.
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More likely they are assembling 2019s with excess spare parts and went with those parts pre-painted that they had the most of on hand. They probably made too many spare parts and when sales were lower than expected, their bean counting algorithm said they needed to dump some into the production run.
I hate to agree (because it does sound cheesy), but you are probably right. I was thinking the same thing- parts grab bag :)
I hope it comes off as easy as the old one did, and doesn't ruin the paint underneath it when it does.
I can't tell if it is a sticker, but it probably is. Normally, the "Kawasaki" logo is a high-quality, silver, raised lettering... which I like a lot. But if that really is just a printed sticker.... eeeeew.... I would remove it, hoping the paint under it was in good condition and then just buy the correct "Kawasaki" letters and put it on there.
What is with making the silver "matte", anyway... another poor choice if you ask me. Matte paint not only doesn't look good, it is much harder to keep clean, and has FAR less stain resistance. I would look at it and say "what, did someone forget the clear coat?"
Not much of a choice for a new customer. Bring back the green monster!
In fairness, we never had much of a choice. On the years they offered two colors so there was a "choice", the other color was always black. Lots of people (including me) detest black. It is hard to see (safety), impossible to keep clean, shows every little scuff and flaw, and is hot as hell in the sun. The only thing worse than black is MATTE BLACK.
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Yeah, Kawasaki has been there, done that. They stopped manufacturing KZ1300's somewhere around 1983 but continued to "make" and sell new models through 1987. The later bikes were just assembled from parts already manufactured. The bike (the 1300) was a poor selling bike and Kawasaki seems to have made a lot of them with high expectations.
As an aside, I also thought it was going to be a big seller- one of the very few in-line six cylinder motorcycles ever made. It did have some teething problems but nothing fundamental and most or all the problems were addressed in the last [non- US] model years sold. The other thing was that it was introduced as a direct competitor to Honda's GoldWing (a 4 cylinder, 1000cc bike back then) and while the Honda sold, the Kawasaki did not. Go figure.....
I really do hope the C-14 does not disappear from the lineup for the next few years though.
Brian
More likely they are assembling 2019s with excess spare parts and went with those parts pre-painted that they had the most of on hand. They probably made too many spare parts and when sales were lower than expected, their bean counting algorithm said they needed to dump some into the production run.
<snip>
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I really do hope the C-14 does not disappear from the lineup for the next few years though.
Me neither, at least not until a suitable and compelling replacement Concours is created.
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Well, it isn't expensive (actually costs zero) and there are no parts and nothing to break. It is nothing but having more maps to select from. I can see how it could be useful. For example, one set of maps (think "Flash") could be with aggressive engine breaking, and another with normal, and another with little.
Ride by wire (electronic throttle) would instantly add cruise control (at zero cost),
Unless it were designed correctly, so the "adaptive" part could be turned off, so it is normal cruise control, like I can on my G37S (which has adaptive as an optional function). I have no problem with optional things (modes, settings, etc), as long as I can retain control over them (and control that preferably is "sticky" (persistent) )
Nothing costs zero. I work in embedded software development (what all these ride modes and cruise control stuff is). It's crazy expensive. You need to do a lot of R&D, come up with a plan, write a spec, write the software, test the software, manage all those people, all of which are highly paid. Zero could not be farther than the truth. These are what would be Fortune 500 companies in the US. They probably have hardware in the loop test benches and all the developers have at least one ECU and wiring harness and power supply on their desk and need to vary all the inputs (signals like temp, coolant temp, intake manifold air pressure etc etc). My test bench costs about $80,000 for the hardware alone, then you have to make the wiring harness and that is days of engineering time. A typical developer where I work makes 100k and managers make 160k. Testers make from 55k to 90k So, zero cost? Nope.
Plus it's a competitive market. If you have the skillset to do that and your company isn't paying you enough, GM or an Aerospace outfit or Tesla or (fill in the blank) will gladly hire you, so the competition drives up wages. We had a guy with 10 years experience in autonomous vehicles leave for Silicon Valley, a guy left for Amazon. My riding buddy is a manager and his bonus gross was 100k, he makes 160k.
And if you make a cruise control feature and it fails? Lawsuits out the ass. So you test it and test it and then test it some more. Oh, add in patents and IP lawyers and all the IT stuff it takes to run all that? We have 3000 engineers under one roof. My boss's boss's boss's budget is $120,000,000. So sure, there's LOTS of zeroes there I guess?
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This. So very true.
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Nothing costs zero. I work in embedded software development (what all these ride modes and cruise control stuff is). It's crazy expensive.
I have been working in software and system development for 30+ years, so I know what you are saying, but let me clarify further...
First, I wasn't talking about ride control as in suspension. I was talking about just cruise and maps. You are correct I should have said "essentially zero" or perhaps "very little" ... my bad :) Although there is little to no hardware cost, there is R&D/testing, but that is very minimal for cruise control on an already throttle-by-wire design (which itself WILL take a lot of development, but that is a change already being made), and also very minimal for a multi-map system (of which the Concours already is/has; so adding perhaps 2 or three more maps on a new ECU that will already have at least two is not that big a whoop). So yes, although there is some cost, what cost there would be is then spread over a million production units over several or more years, meaning something like a few or several dollars per bike.
I can't speak much to liability costs, that is outside my experience. Mappings- I think that is probably not much of an issue. Cruise, well, that is SO well-known now and not rocket science.... and probably already done on other models, anyway. Active suspension? I have no clue.... but I wasn't addressing that (just in case you were, and I am not saying you were).
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Ah, see, there you go, clogging a lot of "I wants" up with reality, which is never received well by the public. ;D
Adding C.C. to the C-14 as currently available would be problematic and although absolutely doable, it would show up in the bottom- line cost to the consumer who seems invariably reluctant / resistant to paying for it.
But there is a solution: all the "I wants" can get together and devise / design their own CC. (an similar) for the C-14 at a 'cut- rate' price, without the concerns for liability or other, outside, costs.
ROFLMAO
Brian
Nothing costs zero. I work in embedded software development (what all these ride modes and cruise control stuff is). It's crazy expensive. You need to do a lot of R&D, come up with a plan, write a spec, write the software, test the software, manage all those people, all of which are highly paid. Zero could not be farther than the truth. These are what would be Fortune 500 companies in the US. They probably have hardware in the loop test benches and all the developers have at least one ECU and wiring harness and power supply on their desk and need to vary all the inputs (signals like temp, coolant temp, intake manifold air pressure etc etc). My test bench costs about $80,000 for the hardware alone, then you have to make the wiring harness and that is days of engineering time. A typical developer where I work makes 100k and managers make 160k. Testers make from 55k to 90k So, zero cost? Nope.
Plus it's a competitive market. If you have the skillset to do that and your company isn't paying you enough, GM or an Aerospace outfit or Tesla or (fill in the blank) will gladly hire you, so the competition drives up wages. We had a guy with 10 years experience in autonomous vehicles leave for Silicon Valley, a guy left for Amazon. My riding buddy is a manager and his bonus gross was 100k, he makes 160k.
And if you make a cruise control feature and it fails? Lawsuits out the ass. So you test it and test it and then test it some more. Oh, add in patents and IP lawyers and all the IT stuff it takes to run all that? We have 3000 engineers under one roof. My boss's boss's boss's budget is $120,000,000. So sure, there's LOTS of zeroes there I guess?
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Ah, see, there you go, clogging a lot of "I wants" up with reality, which is never received well by the public. ;D Adding C.C. to the C-14 as currently available would be problematic and although absolutely doable, it would show up in the bottom- line cost to the consumer who seems invariably reluctant / resistant to paying for it.
Except my postings weren't at all about adding cruise control to the currently available model. It was about adding cruise control to a NEW model that would presumably already be throttle-by-wire....
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Ah, see, there you go, clogging a lot of "I wants" up with reality, which is never received well by the public. ;D
Adding C.C. to the C-14 as currently available would be problematic and although absolutely doable, it would show up in the bottom- line cost to the consumer who seems invariably reluctant / resistant to paying for it.
But there is a solution: all the "I wants" can get together and devise / design their own CC. (an similar) for the C-14 at a 'cut- rate' price, without the concerns for liability or other, outside, costs.
ROFLMAO
Brian
Not necessarily . Hypothetically , what if cc added $100 to the cost of the bike, but the folks in the marketing dept say that if it has cc, keeping the current price, they could sell 10,000 more bikes and that would more than make up for extra $50 the cc cost? That’s how it works in the real world.
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Because of the exchange rate McCruise is only $700. something plus shipping, :D
Been about six years for me , I'm happy and I paid $1,000.+
Every year the same talk, Next year folks,
It's like talking about the Buffalo Bills or Cleveland Browns
NEXT YEAR folks :rotflmao: :banghead:
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... but that is very minimal for cruise control on an already throttle-by-wire design (which itself WILL take a lot of development, but that is a change already being made),
So if you take out the expensive part, it's very inexpensive? Makes perfect sense.
what cost there would be is then spread over a million production units over several or more years, meaning something like a few or several dollars per bike.
If they were selling a million bikes, would they be phasing out the model?
I'm sure the C14 product manager doesn't sit around all day, wondering how he can possibly improve the bike. On the contrary, he probably has a rule in his email that automatically deletes any email that mentions cruise control. Why? Because he's been told in no uncertain terms by a legion of bean counters that he's losing money on the model as is, and if he adds cost to it, he'll be taken out back and hacked apart by bone saws (it's all the rage now).
Apparently BMW and Yamaha have the market cornered? Honda hasn't updated the ST1300 in years and Suzuki doesn't even try. I've had CC and do love it but I'm not willing to do a Rostra when a throttle lock accomplishes 75% of the task for <$20.
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S
Apparently BMW and Yamaha have the market cornered? Honda hasn't updated the ST1300 in years and Suzuki doesn't even try. I've had CC and do love it but I'm not willing to do a Rostra when a throttle lock accomplishes 75% of the task for <$20.
That's being very generous. Unless you live where it is totally flat and there is no wind,it is nowhere close to doing 75% of what cc can do. Go up a hill, it maintains your speed, go down a hill, maintains your speed, and if you have to slow down, a simple pus of a button takes you back up to that speed, no throttle lock can do that. Plus, speed maintained within .5 mph, so steady that it helps mpg, again, throttle lock can't do that.
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But the post I responded to still makes sense and I believe is quite correct: it will cost something, and almost always more than is initially thought, to add absolutely anything to a production product or even change it in any way.
As to a new model, it appears that the entire sport- tourer, and perhaps the entire recreational vehicle market too boot, is pretty soft, so that makes adding a newer model much less attractive to a manufacturer. So the chances of a major update to a relatively slow seller such as the C-14 is not overly likely IMO. Of course that is just a wild guess on my part, I really have no idea what may be in the pipeline but it is pretty obvious that recreational vehicle sales are down.
And as always, Kawasaki has much better info. on what is desireable by the public than 'we' do so perhaps while it seems that C.C. is a really huge aspect of a new tourer- type motorcycle, not that many people are willing to pay more for a bike that comes with it, at least right now. ??
Brian
Except my postings weren't at all about adding cruise control to the currently available model. It was about adding cruise control to a NEW model that would presumably already be throttle-by-wire....
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I could not agree more- you are exactly correct. The problem is that 10,000 number; if it is more like 1,500, then the slimmer profit theory will not work. And it does not seem that sales are weak across the board. Plus, there are a couple of truly dominant models out there that sort of 'own' the touring market, GoldWing and the BMW 1600. Sure there are other 'touring' bikes but really, they are just very slightly different versions of what the company already makes as main- line motorcycles (Kawasaki Vulcans, Harley 'tourer' versions, etc.).
We I am afraid of is that Kawasaki may simply drop the sport tourer line entirely and let Yamaha have it for example. The same way everyone has dropped tourers (full dressed tourers) to Honda and BMW- no other company even bothers anymore.
All of that said, at least Kawasaki is sharing development and a big proportion of tooling expenses with another model besides the C-14, the ZX 14. Yamaha, for example, has nothing else to share building / designing / coding expenses with the FJR as it is a stand- alone model for that company. So with a little luck, the C-14 may live on yet.... ?
Brian
Not necessarily . Hypothetically , what if cc added $100 to the cost of the bike, but the folks in the marketing dept say that if it has cc, keeping the current price, they could sell 10,000 more bikes and that would more than make up for extra $50 the cc cost? That’s how it works in the real world.
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That's being very generous. Unless you live where it is totally flat and there is no wind,it is nowhere close to doing 75% of what cc can do. Go up a hill, it maintains your speed, go down a hill, maintains your speed, and if you have to slow down, a simple pus of a button takes you back up to that speed, no throttle lock can do that. Plus, speed maintained within .5 mph, so steady that it helps mpg, again, throttle lock can't do that.
That's your interpretation. My goal is to rest my wrist periodically and a throttle lock does that. I've put 73k on my bike and never had a cruise. I would certainly take one but I obviously don't need one.
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So if you take out the expensive part, it's very inexpensive? Makes perfect sense.
In reply #36, you replied to something I said, mostly out of context. What I was originally answering was the concept of a new model of Concours. Not an add-on to the existing bike. The presumption I was using is that it would already be a totally new ECU, with all the costs and R&D that would already go into that. It would already be throttle-by-wire, like all new models already are. Adding cruise control or multiple maps into the mix of a totally new model is not a significant cost (it is almost no cost).
If they were selling a million bikes, would they be phasing out the model?
300,000, 500,000 whatever. The point is it would be greatly diluted. Actually, we really don't know how many C14's have been sold over the last 11 years in the whole world.... Kawasaki keeps that number pretty secret for some reason. I would love to know, though. We also don't know if they are phasing out the model to prepare for a new one, or just making the whole concept go "poof".
I'm sure the C14 product manager doesn't sit around all day, wondering how he can possibly improve the bike. On the contrary, he probably has a rule in his email that automatically deletes any email that mentions cruise control. Why? Because he's been told in no uncertain terms by a legion of bean counters that he's losing money on the model as is, and if he adds cost to it, he'll be taken out back and hacked apart by bone saws (it's all the rage now).
I know they are not going to add cruise control to the existing model. Not gonna happen. It is too late in the game, and would be far too expensive to retrofit an existing design. It would only happen during a major redesign, assuming the sales numbers are there to support a next generation of Concours. I hope there will be, though.
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As to a new model, it appears that the entire sport- tourer, and perhaps the entire recreational vehicle market too boot, is pretty soft, so that makes adding a newer model much less attractive to a manufacturer. So the chances of a major update to a relatively slow seller such as the C-14 is not overly likely IMO. Of course that is just a wild guess on my part, I really have no idea what may be in the pipeline but it is pretty obvious that recreational vehicle sales are down.
All we can do is wait and see. It doesn't help when they came out with the H2SX as some type of small, chain driven, low-range, less comfortable, wimpy warranty, quasi-"sport tourer."
We I am afraid of is that Kawasaki may simply drop the sport tourer line entirely and let Yamaha have it for example.
That is my fear, too.
All of that said, at least Kawasaki is sharing development and a big proportion of tooling expenses with another model besides the C-14, the ZX 14.
Exactly. This is why I have been keeping a sharp eye on what is happening with the ZX-14. Its days are likely numbered too... They might do the same thing they did in 2008 and come out with some new, large, super-sport bike and a companion sport-tourer model derived from that. Or they could just look at the H2 and simply drop the ZX completely, and with it, any hopes of an economical way of creating a "true" sport-tourer.
Being the pessimist that I am, I have a feeling the Concours is dead as a concept.... along with the large, super-sport ZX.
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Being the pessimist that I am, I have a feeling the Concours is dead as a concept.... along with the large, super-sport ZX.
Don't give up hope. These things tend to be cyclical. There's likely to be a resurgence when the current adv bike enthusiasm wins wains. Or something..... :o
typo corrected
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"Being the pessimist that I am, I have a feeling the Concours is dead as a concept.... along with the large, super-sport ZX."
I believe that . Look, what is the market for a C14? I'm guessing most customers are men, age 40-55, make a minimum of $70K a year, have a lot of riding experience and want a sporty touring bike that costs $16000.
Now, before anyone chimes in says that they are 21 years old, make $40K a year, etc, keep in mind, I said "most". This is the market.\
It is a very narrow market! Also, each year, that number gets smaller. HD has found that out the hard way. For the most part, our young'ins are not as interested in motorcycles as they were decades ago. If anything, they see them as a cheap alternative to cars. Look at the most popular bikes, they are small, like the Gromm, little putters.
Twenty years ago, Cadillac noticed that the average buyer of its cars was getting older and older. They realized that if they didn't change their product to
appeal to younger people, their market would die. So, they did.
Yes, people are still buying sport tourers, but they are a dying breed. Suzuki doesn't offer one. Honda? Do people still buy that ST V bike? BMW? Yes. Yamaha still updates the fudger. Moto Guzzi stopped making them two years ago. That bummed me out because I really would love to own a 'Guzzi again.
Kawa, I think, is testing the waters with the sc motor.If it succeeds, expect other bikes to use something similar. If not, it will merely disappear. Suzuki did the same thing with their V4 motors, plopping them in a cruiser and a tourer. I had the V4 1200 cruiser and it basically was a mediocre bike with an awesome motor that didn't sell.
Another problem is that long term, the internal combustion motor is on the way out. Already, most of the attention in cars is on electric, not gas and some companies (like Volvo)have already announced when they will stop making gas only cars. I have no idea how motorcycles will fare with electric motors, but keep in mind that if cars go electric, gas stations will start to disappear, making it harder to hard core tour with a gas bike.I know that this may not start happening for ten years, but I have had my C14 for seven years and my Suzuki for 22 years, so in the big scheme of things for me, that is not too far off.
These are very tough tough times for motorcycle companies. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of them were to merge.I remember it was not long agao when Suzuki stopped bringing in new bikes. They look the weakest. Heck, I can't remember the last time they came out with something new. The only big selling bike that they had was the Bandit 1200, sold in the '90's which used an oil cooled motor from the '80's; go figure.
I will say this- considering how well my '11 C14 has served me, how will the bike performs and how you could probably buy a 2019 for $15K, I consider the C14 a massive bargain and wish I could buy another for if and when my current one wears out.
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I will say this- considering how well my '11 C14 has served me, how well the bike performs and how you could probably buy a 2019 for $15K, I consider the C14 a massive bargain and wish I could buy another for if and when my current one wears out.
You can wait to see if there is another Concours and if there is, and it is compelling, then there is that. If not, and the 2019 (or whatever) is the last year, then grab one at a good price and extend your Concours experience (if you can tolerate the color).
As far as electric, I would love an electric motorcycle. Gobs of instant, quiet, efficient, simple, reliable power. But until there is a huge improvement in battery technology, there just isn't enough space on a motorcycle for a reasonably-sized battery for a reasonable range (and also at a reasonable price).
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If it can't do 1000 miles in a day, it's not a touring bike in my mind. I think they will get there though.
I have no idea what the life expectancy of a C14 but it will most likely outlive my riding career. But there are a lot of really good deals on nicely farkled C14's now. My brother and I own identical 'red' 2012's, mine has 73k and isn't bad, his has < 30k and looks better than new, because that's how he is. I may buy his one day. His has the cool tri-oval Delkovec that I should have got, the Mountain Runner flash too, I have the rev before that. If I could buy his, swap a couple parts onto his and do it for 3k net, that's a win.
I know of a 2016 that has a ton of stuff for 6 or 7k.
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I was near the Eisenhower tunnel in CO ( about 12,000’ alt) when a Tesla blew past me like I was standing still.
No oxygen, no problem!
Gotta love the electric motor!
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good reading here in this interview of the French general manager... Google is your friend...
http://www.lofficielducycle.com/article/patrick-marchal-kawasaki-2018-sera-positive-que-2017 (http://www.lofficielducycle.com/article/patrick-marchal-kawasaki-2018-sera-positive-que-2017)
"""...Which model do you miss in the range today?
What we would like to have, it would be a successor for the 1400 GTR, a GT bike that we have more in the range, but the slot will be partly covered by the H2 SX. A big trail type adventure capable of competing with a BMW R 1200 GS would also be interesting. """
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What we would like to have, it would be a successor for the 1400 GTR, a GT bike that we have more in the range, but the slot will be partly covered by the H2 SX.
Probably a mistranslation of "a GT bike that has more range", which certainly can't be filled at all by the H2 SX, which already has considerably less range (and less comfort, less reliability, less warranty, less wind protection, less storage, less affordability, less etc).
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Euro rumors... https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2018/october/bikesocials-bike-news-round-up-26-10-18 (https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2018/october/bikesocials-bike-news-round-up-26-10-18)
1: Four new Kawasaki coming to EICMA
A countdown timer on Kawasaki’s US website hints that the firm is planning to unveil four new models at the EICMA show in Milan in early November. The firm is using the image you see here to publicise the event, clearly showing four covered-up machines lined up behind the 2019 models that it’s already revealed – the new ZX-6R, updated ZX-10R variants and the more powerful 2019 Ninja H2 models.
So what are the four covered bikes? Well, we know about two of them for certain. One is an updated Versys 1000, which we’ve written about here. And another guaranteed new model is the naked Z400, a derivative of the Ninja 400. Again, we’ve written about the Z400 before.
So what are the other two?
The word from Japan is that one will be a new retro machine to replace the old W800. We’ve been told to expect a water-cooled parallel twin rather than the old W800’s air-cooled motor, but other than that the new W is said to follow all the same retro ideals as its predecessor. And with the likes of Triumph’s latest Bonneville range selling so well, it makes sense for Kawasaki to get back in on that action.
The final bike is believed to be a mildly revised Ninja H2 SX sports tourer. That also makes sense, as the H2 SX is one of the only bikes left in Kawasaki’s range that’s still listed as a ‘2018’ model rather than a ‘2019’ version on the firm’s website. Quite what will be changed on the bike remains a mystery, but we’d bank on electronic suspension, at least on the ‘SE’ model.
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Euro rumors...[...]
The final bike is believed to be a mildly revised Ninja H2 SX sports tourer. That also makes sense, as the H2 SX is one of the only bikes left in Kawasaki’s range that’s still listed as a ‘2018’ model rather than a ‘2019’ version on the firm’s website. Quite what will be changed on the bike remains a mystery, but we’d bank on electronic suspension, at least on the ‘SE’ model.
Yawn.
So take the same short wheelbase, sub-par range, chain drive, non-adjustable small windscreen, wimpy warranty, expensive price tag... and perhaps raise the price another $3000 for electronic suspension. Somehow that wouldn't surprise me at all.
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That bike looks like it would appeal most to a male in his mid 20’s. Problem with that is a male in his mid 20’s is the least likely to be able to afford the bike and insurance. That’s why the under 400cc bikes are so popular .
Looking at the H2 at the dealer, I couldn’t see myself doing days of touring on it. Putting saddle bags on it and calling it a sport tour is like putting silicone implants on a hag and then calling her a model.
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Euro rumors... https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2018/october/bikesocials-bike-news-round-up-26-10-18 (https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2018/october/bikesocials-bike-news-round-up-26-10-18)
1: Four new Kawasaki coming to EICMA
A countdown timer on Kawasaki’s US website hints that the firm is planning to unveil four new models at the EICMA show in Milan in early November. The firm is using the image you see here to publicise the event, clearly showing four covered-up machines lined up behind the 2019 models that it’s already revealed – the new ZX-6R, updated ZX-10R variants and the more powerful 2019 Ninja H2 models.
So what are the four covered bikes? Well, we know about two of them for certain. One is an updated Versys 1000, which we’ve written about here. And another guaranteed new model is the naked Z400, a derivative of the Ninja 400. Again, we’ve written about the Z400 before.
So what are the other two?
The word from Japan is that one will be a new retro machine to replace the old W800. We’ve been told to expect a water-cooled parallel twin rather than the old W800’s air-cooled motor, but other than that the new W is said to follow all the same retro ideals as its predecessor. And with the likes of Triumph’s latest Bonneville range selling so well, it makes sense for Kawasaki to get back in on that action.
The final bike is believed to be a mildly revised Ninja H2 SX sports tourer. That also makes sense, as the H2 SX is one of the only bikes left in Kawasaki’s range that’s still listed as a ‘2018’ model rather than a ‘2019’ version on the firm’s website. Quite what will be changed on the bike remains a mystery, but we’d bank on electronic suspension, at least on the ‘SE’ model.
They missed the KLR650 replacement that is rumored to be one of the 4 in the back row.
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RE: NINJA H2™ SX @ EICMA
So they added electronic suspension, $2000 to the price tag, and the SE+ to the name? I predict a shaft drive version in 2020 with and increase in price of $2999, and some more letters to become Ninja H2 SX SE+ SD++ . Yeah, OK, probably not, but at least my prediction is as accurate as the one that predicted a water cooled W800 in 2019. ;)
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RE: NINJA H2™ SX @ EICMA
So they added electronic suspension, $2000 to the price tag, and the SE+ to the name?
Funny... isn't that exactly what I predicted? (Well, I said $3k, but that those prices, it can't matter) :)
predict a shaft drive version in 2020
HA! And maybe an adjustable windscreen? Or longer wheelbase? Or a larger gas tank? Or....?
Nah, any of those would actually make it more like a sport tourer. They don't want to do THAT. Besides, then it would start at $40,000....
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RE: NINJA H2™ SX @ EICMA
So they added electronic suspension, $2000 to the price tag, and the SE+ to the name? I predict a shaft drive version in 2020 with and increase in price of $2999, and some more letters to become Ninja H2 SX SE+ SD++ . Yeah, OK, probably not, but at least my prediction is as accurate as the one that predicted a water cooled W800 in 2019. ;)
Are they going to beef up the drive shaft from the Concours or de-tune the H2 SX even further. I could be wrong, but my guess is the power output of the supercharged motor is the reason they didn’t make it shaft drive to begin with.
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Are they going to beef up the drive shaft from the Concours [] I could be wrong, but my guess is the power output of the supercharged motor is the reason they didn’t make it shaft drive to begin with.
At the crank, it is only about 40hp more that the C14, and the peak torque amount is almost identical to the C14 (101/102ftlb), although the C14 develops it at a nice 6200rpm instead of much lagged 9500rpm on the SX , so it shouldn't be difficult to design a shaft drive to handle that, even using a shorter design from the C14. The C14 is heavier, so that is stress, too.
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It makes me a little giddy when I can start an engineering debate about something that I pulled out of my
as..derrierre. ;D
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Situation normal here..