Author Topic: Ways for more low end power?  (Read 13984 times)

Offline oldsmoboat

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Ways for more low end power?
« on: January 14, 2015, 04:09:09 PM »
Are there any specific mods or tweaks that give a noticeable improvement in low RPM power?
I am sure my bike is like everyone else's and doesn't get on the band till about 6k RPM.

Offline Two Skies

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2015, 05:12:55 PM »
The Two Minute Mod.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=249.msg1924#msg1924

We used to have a very long thread about this, but due to forum issues that thread is now gone.

And of course, if you want the full treatment:
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/
This links to Steve In Sunny Florida's site, where he offers new cams, jets, 7th gear mod (re-gears the bike, drops your RPM's about 12%).  Plus he is a master at Connie carb rebuilds.  This makes a nice excuse to throw in the jets which enhance the 'two minute mod' very nicely.

I've been interested in the cam grind he came up with for a while now...
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2015, 06:04:29 PM »
Are there any specific mods or tweaks that give a noticeable improvement in low RPM power?
I am sure my bike is like everyone else's and doesn't get on the band till about 6k RPM.

  Are you sure you want the answer, because you can't build power without changes, and changes cost money  :o.

  Here it is in a nutshell... Low rpm power without changing the displacement is only going to be achieved by maximizing cylinder filling at lower rpms. This is primarily going to be done by changing cam timing, and reducing overlap. Also, the ports on out heads are actually to large for most efficient low end power production, so efforts have to be made to increase flow speed and prevent fuel from separating while in emulsion. Increasing mean effective cylinder pressure at lower rpms is THE only way you're going to make strides in moving the power to a lower, ore useable rpm area.

  Basically what I just said in laymans terms is to get as much well mixed air and fuel into the cylinder as you can at low rpms, and then trap it there for a more powerful explosion.

  There are "cheats" you can use, like advancing the ignition timing, but This does nothing to improve cylinder filling at any rpm. Everything in an engine works off a give and take scenario. IMO, based on my experiences, advancing the cam timing may somewhat sharpen the low rpm throttle response, but at the risk of over advance in the 3500 to 4000 rpm range, and at any time WOT is employed.  Any time you have excessive advance you're going to make less power not more, so I personally don't employ advance as I haven't seen it actually do any good over the broad rpm range. JMO, Steve

 

Offline Mettler1

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 07:28:16 AM »
    I like this the best!! :thumbs: :thumbs: 


            https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/replacement-torque-cams
'94 Concours 112,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,Torque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators,etc

Offline oldsmoboat

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 09:34:38 AM »
 :o

Thanks for the info.  Not looking to drag race, bike is just a pig off the line then turns into the tasmanian devil at 6k.   :D

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 09:41:04 AM »
You misunderstood. Drag racing would require increasing the high rpm capability of the engine. Bigger cams, more duration. My cams go the other way, to make more torque, right where you asked for it, below 6k.

 For some reason when anyone says "cams" the automatic response is to think "drag racing high rpm".  This is something I'm working hard to overcome. IMO, the stock cams are already to big. Steve

Offline Leo

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 08:11:59 PM »
  Are you sure you want the answer, because you can't build power without changes, and changes cost money  :o.

  Here it is in a nutshell... Low rpm power without changing the displacement is only going to be achieved by maximizing cylinder filling at lower rpms. This is primarily going to be done by changing cam timing, and reducing overlap. Also, the ports on out heads are actually to large for most efficient low end power production, so efforts have to be made to increase flow speed and prevent fuel from separating while in emulsion. Increasing mean effective cylinder pressure at lower rpms is THE only way you're going to make strides in moving the power to a lower, ore useable rpm area.

  Basically what I just said in laymans terms is to get as much well mixed air and fuel into the cylinder as you can at low rpms, and then trap it there for a more powerful explosion.

  There are "cheats" you can use, like advancing the ignition timing, but This does nothing to improve cylinder filling at any rpm. Everything in an engine works off a give and take scenario. IMO, based on my experiences, advancing the cam timing may somewhat sharpen the low rpm throttle response, but at the risk of over advance in the 3500 to 4000 rpm range, and at any time WOT is employed.  Any time you have excessive advance you're going to make less power not more, so I personally don't employ advance as I haven't seen it actually do any good over the broad rpm range. JMO, Steve



Steve knows what he is talking about.  I played with cam timing in my SCCA days by slotting the bolt holes in the cam sprocket and making various shims to shift a widely hogged out keyway.  Everything you do affects something else.  Even the valve lash affects the valve timing.   The learning curve is long and hard, I recomment doing whatever Steve tells you. 
Yep, still riding the old one

In Indiana, missing Texas

Offline Roadhound

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 04:31:21 AM »
I have always liked the ideal of riding a bike like it likes to be ridden. If it does not make power at low RPMs, don't try to ride it at low RPMs. This engine was designed and manufactured to spin, keep the RPMs up and it will be happy and keep you happy. Try to ride it like a V twin and you will not be pleased.
Don Ricks
Atlanta, Ga.

"Ride or Ride not, there is no drive."

Offline George R. Young

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 07:11:06 AM »
Ah, thank you Roadhound, you sum it up so well. I think the Concours thrives on open, curvy roads, and is champing at the bit in traffic going to pick up a quart of milk. That's why I bought it and it still thrills me.

A friend has a Suzuki VL1500 and it has all the low speed torque that anyone would want. He likes it, but it's not for me.
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Offline Outback_Jon

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 11:25:35 AM »
I have always liked the ideal of riding a bike like it likes to be ridden. If it does not make power at low RPMs, don't try to ride it at low RPMs. This engine was designed and manufactured to spin, keep the RPMs up and it will be happy and keep you happy. Try to ride it like a V twin and you will not be pleased.
+1.  I find if I try to forget that the bike has more than three gears when playing on a twisty road, it makes the ride much better.  Fourth is for when the road gets boring, Fifth and Sixth are for the highway.

I don't always follow that, but I have a huge grin on my face when I do.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 01:55:16 PM »
 I guess the difference is that I can change stuff to suit my likings, so I'm not stuck with a bike that doesn't fit me the way I want it to. This is in ergo's or performance.

  BTW, if any of y'all have ridden a bike with my cams in it, you'ld find it superior in the twisties. Power on tap at any rpm, and increased compression braking. Nothing but better than stock.  Steve

Offline Rhino

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 02:03:02 PM »
One great way to get more power out of your connie is to add 4.  C10 + 4 = C14  Just saying...  ;D

Offline 2fast

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 04:32:10 PM »
If you have ridden a bike with Steve's carb and cam mods, you know what a difference it makes. Folks that think the C10 "comes alive" in the upper rpm ranges do not realize the reasons for this. The stock C10 runs like crap in standard set up until you hit around 5K, where things start to come together. This gives the illusion that there is something wonderful about the upper rpm range. What you are really experiencing is lousy performance up until you hit the sweet spot.
The carb and cam mods tend to level out the performance and make it far more linear throughout the range.  Don't take my word for it, do a roll on with someone that has the mods and see for yourself.
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Offline DC Concours

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 08:07:47 PM »
haha. you forgot one tiny variable in your equation...

C10 + 4 + [$10000]

One great way to get more power out of your connie is to add 4.  C10 + 4 = C14  Just saying...  ;D

Offline Two Skies

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 02:05:28 AM »
haha. you forgot one tiny variable in your equation...

C10 + 4 + [$10000]

Still cheaper than a Beamer though...
 ;D
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline jim snyder

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 12:42:47 PM »
Ok here's the low down for fantastic low end performance:
1. Install Steve's 2MM jet kit (and be sure your air box is sealed up good)
2. Install Steve's torque cams
3. Ok project complete !!!
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Offline Mettler1

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 09:32:40 PM »
Ok here's the low down for fantastic low end performance:
1. Install Steve's 2MM jet kit (and be sure your air box is sealed up good)
2. Install Steve's torque cams
3. Ok project complete !!!

   10-4 good buddy. :thumbs: :thumbs:
'94 Concours 112,000 miles-- 7th gear,2MM,KB fork brace,Over flowtubes,Stick coils,Tcro shifter,GPS,Torque cams,SPOOKFAK,block off plates, SS brake & clutch lines,KB risers, FENDA EXTENDA, emulators,etc

Offline Two Skies

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 09:59:07 PM »
Question for those of you that have been using Steve's cams for a while, how are they working out r.e. the pitting issue?

For those not in the know, the stock Kawi cams tend to develop pits/cavities in the cam surfaces over time.  Usually this isn't a big issue (it looks worse than it is) but once those pits become significant, then it could become a friction/wear problem for the lifter arm surfaces and such..
2006 w/50,000+ miles and a few bruises.

MCL Fork Brace & Handlebar Risers.  Bergmen Quick Release Tank Kit, Pilot GT Front/Avon Venom Rear tire.  Trunk w/spoiler.  NGK DR8EIX plugs.  Piece of foam in airbox.  Beads on seat.  Bafflectomized.  Murphs Kneesavers & Fuse Block.  Cee Bailey Winscreen w/vent.  Heated grips.  'Custom' mirrors.

Offline SteveJ.

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2015, 12:24:16 AM »
Question for those of you that have been using Steve's cams for a while, how are they working out r.e. the pitting issue?

For those not in the know, the stock Kawi cams tend to develop pits/cavities in the cam surfaces over time.  Usually this isn't a big issue (it looks worse than it is) but once those pits become significant, then it could become a friction/wear problem for the lifter arm surfaces and such..

The torque cams that I installed had more than 60,000 miles on them at the last valve check. The cams are still perfect. I'm glad that I got talked into them.
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Offline Rick Hall

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Re: Ways for more low end power?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2015, 12:38:26 AM »
I've been running Steve's cam and sprocket for over two years now, no issues. Though in fairness, cam pitting is subjective, and more/less dependent on mileage. Note I had cam pitting (intake) on Sam around 80k miles, intake and rockers replaced with OEM. I now have over 170k on the clock.


For those on the fence about increasing low end torque, get the cam kit. My riding is primarily mountain (read: twisties) and city, the increase in torque is quite noticeable at mid RPM's. I don't have to down shift near as often.


As to straight line drag racing, install nitrous.


Rick
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