Difficult to shift and clutch engagement question

[Cold Streak]

Well, in the meantime I found another clutch bleeding issue thread that tackled this issue more completely.  It seems I need a power bleeder of some sort.  I'll borrow one from a buddy this time and buy one if it works well.  No one has had to change the seals yet it seems, so I'm not going to worry about it.

[gPink]

When I had a engagement problem I found the return hole in the master was not flowing fluid. I used the mity vac to suck the dirt out of the bottom of the reservoir while pumping the lever. 

[Diablo6v]

I have an '09 that had the same issues with the clutch. I bleed my clutch yearly. No air in the lines at all.  I started paying attention to when i had issues. All of them were when the bike was very hot or completely cold. If it was cold, the clutch engaged very early. If it was very hot, the clutch lever felt good but i had missed shifts. I realized that the symptoms all occurred after the engine oil had about 3,0000 miles on it. Once i switched to Mobil 1 Synthetic it almost completely went away until I had 4-5,000 miles on it. I am using Amsoil now a grp 4 synthetic. All my clutch issues and shifting issues are completely gone. I believe this tranny is hard on oils and causes a lot of sheer. It could be just me and my bike. Change the oil and see if it improves.

[Cold Streak]

Thanks gPink.  When I get my power bleeder I will give that a try.

Diablo6v, I only have about 700 miles on the oil so that isn't the problem.  I changed the oil when I changed the brake and clutch fluids.  I do agree though that I can tell when the oil has been in there long enough because the shifting gets a little wonky.

[B.D.F.]

As always when this issue comes up about the C-14's brakes or clutch: power bleed it.... three times and all will be well. These systems simply do not fully bleed using any of the manual methods that are usually used. The brakes are soft (Boys!) and often 'pump up', while the clutch changes engagement point a great deal when the engine warms up. All of these are signs of air trapped in the system, and the various orifices (orifi?.... oh yeah, Easy Boys!) in the system are simply too small to allow fluid to flow fast enough to get all the air out. So again, buy a power bleeder or use someone elses', and after you are absolutely, positive that you have bleed more than enough fluid through the system, do it at least one more time.

I am 100% serious about this and my experiences with several C-14's have shown me that it is not anecdotal but really what is going on. These bikes simply do not bleed well, and not even adequately using the master cylinder to push fluid through the system as has been done for ~100 years on gazillions of road vehicles using hydraulics.

Brian

[Cold Streak]

Okay I power bled it and all is well!  I held off posting for a bit to not jinx it, but I think it's all well and good.  I cleaned out the port with a toothpick, then bled a bunch of fluid through that.  Then bled the top bleeder screw and got a bunch of air out.  Went to the bottom and didn't see much air.  Went back and hit the top bleeder again and by now the clutch lever felt really good.  Test ride confirmed it.  I have about 200 miles on it now and it is still solid.  Big trip to Road America for superbike racing this weekend will be the ultimate test.  About a 1000 mile weekend with a combination of freeway and back roads. 

Thanks again to all who posted and especially B.D.F.

[B.D.F.]

Happy to help if / when I can and glad it worked out for you.

What is unfortunate is that this is a repeating problem that has a clear and very precise answer. All of the 'motor oil, clutch plate, clutch spring, hot / cold, humid / dry situations causing insufficient and, especially varying behavior of the clutch are really (wait for it) clutch hydraulic problems. Somehow a tad (technical term) of air gets into the system and it is an absolute BIT$@H to get out. Often when I have bled a problem motorcycle clutch, I have not even seen so much as one tiny bubble in the outgoing fluid but once fully- bled, it acts like a new bike again for a long time.

To add even more unfortunateness (sic), dealers often do not address this situation correctly either. They either manually bleed the clutch (does not work), or go looking for the things listed in the above paragraph.

Okay I power bled it and all is well!  I held off posting for a bit to not jinx it, but I think it's all well and good.  I cleaned out the port with a toothpick, then bled a bunch of fluid through that.  Then bled the top bleeder screw and got a bunch of air out.  Went to the bottom and didn't see much air.  Went back and hit the top bleeder again and by now the clutch lever felt really good.  Test ride confirmed it.  I have about 200 miles on it now and it is still solid.  Big trip to Road America for superbike racing this weekend will be the ultimate test.  About a 1000 mile weekend with a combination of freeway and back roads. 

Remember, motorcycle clutch hydraulics are like human intestines: neither one needs air and if present, is bound to cause often erratic and always unpleasant results.

Brian

Thanks again to all who posted and especially B.D.F.

[VirginiaJim]

I do this  before I bleed the clutch..

[B.D.F.]

No need for incantations or prayers to false gods..... just fill the reservoir, crack the bleeder and suck hard.... with a power bleeder. All will be well.

Brian

I do this  before I bleed the clutch..

[Cold Streak]

Well, I spoke too soon.     On the way home I started to lose the clutch.  Once home, I opened it up and bled it again.  All was good or so I thought.  Rode to work this morning and barely got here as the clutch went away totally.  It happens when I'm just traveling along the road.  Suddenly the lever starts to go away until there is nothing left.  It really makes me wonder if there is a leak because I get the lever feeling really good, then it goes away again.

I'm using my buddies homemade bleeder.  I can get about 10 inches of water vacuum with it, but it won't pull any fluid out of the bleed screws.   I don't get that.  If I pull the lever and crack the bleed screw I get fluid and bubbles, which the power bleeder then sucks out of the tube.  I'm starting to think I have a leaky seal on the piston.  I'm ready to turn it over to the local dealer who seems to know what he's doing.  Crap.

[tjhess74]

I've had clutch issues with my 08 since the first winter it experienced (about 6 months into ownership).  The clutch lever goes limp (easy Brian!) and engages immediately upon releasing the lever from the handgrip. The dealer has dicked around with it numerous times and most solutions were to bleed the fluid, which is a decent bandaid. The fluid gets black grainy particles in the bottom of the reservoir and I'm not sure where that comes from.

Upon looking at it myself, I removed the slave cylinder and found a tremendous amount of corrosion, gunk, and brown fluid in the cavity.  Upon showing the dealer, they replaced the oring on the clutch pushrod down at the slave cylinder.  It worked much better for a couple of years until it started again.  In fact, the clutch died on me about two blocks from my house the other day when it was very hot. Upon taking off the slave cylinder (which had to be pried/beat to remove), I found a similar situation plus a MANGLED oring. I put a new one in yesterday and it is working well again.

I am perplexed because the master cylinder fluid system is completely separate from the pushrod/oring system, but somehow one affects the other.

I've found that replacing the fluid each year does tend to delay the problem, so that's my current solution. A Mity Vac pump kit is available from Harbor Freight for about $30.  It's worth every penny.

[wb57]

Is this the sort of bleeder you all are referring to?

https://www.amazon.com/1L-VACUM-BRK-FLUID-BLEEDER/dp/B00BANZSJO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497018432&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+power+bleeder

[B.D.F.]

Do not know about other but not me- I propose a compressed air operated, automatic power bleeder to suck the (Boys!) living daylights out of the hydraulic systems on a C-14. An alternative would be a hand pumped unit but not like that one; some have a long, plunger type operating rod that is used to create a substantial vacuum in a container, then the container used to bleed the brakes. But the air operated ones are best IMO, and have become quite reasonable in price, especially the ones from Harbor Freight.

Brian

Is this the sort of bleeder you all are referring to?

https://www.amazon.com/1L-VACUM-BRK-FLUID-BLEEDER/dp/B00BANZSJO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497018432&sr=8-1&keywords=motorcycle+power+bleeder

[wb57]

Do not know about other but not me- I propose a compressed air operated, automatic power bleeder to suck the (Boys!) living daylights out of the hydraulic systems on a C-14. An alternative would be a hand pumped unit but not like that one; some have a long, plunger type operating rod that is used to create a substantial vacuum in a container, then the container used to bleed the brakes. But the air operated ones are best IMO, and have become quite reasonable in price, especially the ones from Harbor Freight.

Brian

One of these monkeys???

https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html

[B.D.F.]

Yes, that is the type. I am not familiar with the particular model though the price is certainly attractive.

Brian

One of these monkeys???

https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html