Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => Accessories and Modifications - C10 => Topic started by: hlh1 on January 02, 2012, 11:41:44 AM
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There used to be something on this board about this but so much is missing since the crash. I just installed a ZZR rear shock and now the front feel a bit harsh with the 1.1 springs and 15 wt oil. Would going to 10 wt oil help this?
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Front end bump harshness is a combination of taut springs and velocity-squared compression damping (thanks to el cheapo damper rod fork design).
Using thinner oil will reduce the harshness on compression, and unfortunately also the rebound damping.
I think the best answer is cartridge emulators, but they're not cheap.
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What oil level you running? Drop it a bit to soften it up as the air space is a spring too. Try 170 mm of Dexron III .
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I'm running the stock level, per the manual. What viscosity is "dexron III"?
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I'm running the stock level, per the manual. What viscosity is "dexron III"?
That is GM's old auto transmission fluid back a few decades ago . They moved on to Dexron5 or 6 I believe. It is nice and thin but it is very hygroscopic like brake fluid. I am not sure about its use in emulsion tube type shocks. I guess it should be fine since it is not exposed to the moisture in the air.
I think your better off investing in cartridge emulators. They really work well. I am running 1.2 Sonics and emulators and I think I may go up to 25 wt. from 15wt. I softened the emulators and it soaks up the bumps pretty good but I want to lessen my rebound a little.
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How easy is it to adjust the emulators once they're installed?
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You can fish them out with a coat hanger, once the fork caps are off.
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I have a set of emulators collecting dust because I've not had the "guts" to drill holes in my damper rods and then go through the adjustment process.
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Maybe this will help:
http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/forkUpgrade.htm (http://web.ncf.ca/ag136/forkUpgrade.htm)
Based on recommendation from SISF, I changed from yellow to softer blue blow-off spring. He also recommends drilling extra holes in the plate.
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It's Winter. Maybe I should take a crack at this.
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It's Winter. Maybe I should take a crack at this.
It is really no where near as hard as it sounds; plus you can come here to ask questions from those of us who have installed emulators before. Drilling out of the damping rod holes is not hard but does make some people squeamish as the idea of purposely ruining perfectly good parts sounds so "one way road" final.
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It also gives me pause that I may have to pull the emulators, after installation, for tuning...
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It is really no where near as hard as it sounds; plus you can come here to ask questions from those of us who have installed emulators before.
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It really is not hard at all. I did mine in my garage with all hand tools. The drilling parts is a straight drill thru, just make sure you deburr the holes. But when you done your handling will be like night and day. It will really tie in your ZZR. Once you get everything apart you will see how basic it is... ;)
Cheers
Ron
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It also gives me pause that I may have to pull the emulators, after installation, for tuning...
Remove Fork Cap, Pull Fork Spring, Fish out Emulator with long reach magnet. A little messy yes but that's about all there is to it. Depending on how much research you do before and you may not need to pull them out at all; I was happy with mine as installed. If not it should only take a couple of tries.
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I've just finished reading the Race Tech installation instructions for their emulators. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the emulators will increase the spring preload by the amount of their thickness. Is this a problem? I don't think I want any more spring preload than I already have with the Race Tech 1.1 springs.
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I've just finished reading the Race Tech installation instructions for their emulators. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the emulators will increase the spring preload by the amount of their thickness. Is this a problem? I don't think I want any more spring preload than I already have with the Race Tech 1.1 springs.
Pre load does not effect the spring rate of any spring. Just change the word 'Pre-Load' in your head to the words 'Up and down' .
That is all pre-load means. It has nothing to do with stiffer or softer . Race Techs make the bike go 'up' by its thickness which is about one to two marks on your C10 factory pre load adjusters which you would unscrew to go back down
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Pre load does not effect the spring rate of any spring. Just change the word 'Pre-Load' in your head to the words 'Up and down' .
That is all pre-load means. It has nothing to do with stiffer or softer . Race Techs make the bike go 'up' by its thickness which is about one to two marks on your C10 factory pre load adjusters which you would unscrew to go back down
Ok, understand, and my pre-load adjusters are already backed up completely with the 1.1 springs so this means my fork ride height will increase slightly.
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Yes and no. You have two options. You can loosen the bolts in the tripple tree and slide the fork tubes up a little which will lower the bike.
You can remove the spacers tubes you made for the Sonics and shorten those.
Why are your pre load adjusters all the way out? If you cut your spacers correctly you should be almost all the way in (2 to 3 rings showing) to the get the same height as stock.
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Yes and no. You have two options. You can loosen the bolts in the tripple tree and slide the fork tubes up a little which will lower the bike.
You can remove the spacers tubes you made for the Sonics and shorten those.
Why are your pre load adjusters all the way out? If you cut your spacers correctly you should be almost all the way in (2 to 3 rings showing) to the get the same height as stock.
Pre-load adjusters are all the way out in the hopes softening the front end, which is the reason I've started this thread. :)
Now I just need a free Saturday to pull the forks and install the emulators.
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I've just finished reading the Race Tech installation instructions for their emulators. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the emulators will increase the spring preload by the amount of their thickness. Is this a problem? I don't think I want any more spring preload than I already have with the Race Tech 1.1 springs.
No it does not increase the overall preload as you will in turn make new preload spacers that are shorter...
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No it does not increase the overall preload as you will in turn make new preload spacers that are shorter...
Tony, according to this thread he already has made the spacers and installed the Sonic springs and by backing out the pre load adjusters all the way he lowered the front down which does nothing to make the front softer. If anything the added weight made it a tiny bit stiffer. Probably corners better though.
He is talking about adding the emulators and yes , that will raise the bike up about 1/4 inch. Nothing a cheeseburger and a couple of beers cant fix.
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Tony, according to this thread he already has made the spacers and installed the Sonic springs and by backing out the pre load adjusters all the way he lowered the front down which does nothing to make the front softer. If anything the added weight made it a tiny bit stiffer. Probably corners better though.
He is talking about adding the emulators and yes , that will raise the bike up about 1/4 inch. Nothing a cheeseburger and a couple of beers cant fix.
Comments were made before reading the 2nd page of the thread..... But in the end my comment is still the same; you will need to make new spacers, spacers that have had their overall height determined after taking the height of the new emulators into the equation. As you have explained pre-load has nothing to do with the stiffness of the springs; pre-load affects overall ride height and/or static sag.
While I don't think this is his issue but a spring rate that is much too high for the weight or the bike and rider can cause a harsh ride. Think about an old 3/4 ton truck with no weight in the bed it will ride rough but once you added a bunch of weight into the bed it smoothed out an rode real nice.
Here I'd be willing to bet that lighter weight oil will soften up some of the harsh ride. As would the drilling of slightly larger holes in the damping rods; these were all old tuning tricks used before the invention of Cartridge Forks or Cartridge Emulators.
Another point to bear here is that if your oil level is too high that under heavy compression you can cause the fork to "Hydraulically Lock" and ride harsh; one must maintain a cushion of air.
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For grins I might try my original thought of 10wt fork oil or Dexron. If that's not good enough I can "bite the bullet" and install the emulators.
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For grins I might try my original thought of 10wt fork oil or Dexron. If that's not good enough I can "bite the bullet" and install the emulators.
Exactly, 4 bucks and a couple hours is all it is going to cost. Don't overfill, the 170 turned out to be just right for me, I started at 150 as suggested by Sonic and it was harsh.
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What about ordering new "blue" springs for the emulators from sonic? And drilling an extra hole in the emulators themselves? I've got the "older" emulators without the "scored" stampings, they have just one small hole and gold springs. Proper fluid level, backed out emulators, 15 wt fork oil and the thing shakes off the faring. No longer fun to ride anymore on Ohio's terrible roads. But, as stated, fully loaded, it rides a bit better.
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You problem could be the 1.1 springs, that may be too heavy a spring for your use. I run the 1.0 Racetech springs and I could go lighter than that if ride quality was of a higher priority to me.
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You problem could be the 1.1 springs, that may be too heavy a spring for your use. I run the 1.0 Racetech springs and I could go lighter than that if ride quality was of a higher priority to me.
Good point, and if I had it to do over I would go with the 1.0 springs, instead of the 1.1's.
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What about ordering new "blue" springs for the emulators from sonic? And drilling an extra hole in the emulators themselves? I've got the "older" emulators without the "scored" stampings, they have just one small hole and gold springs. Proper fluid level, backed out emulators, 15 wt fork oil and the thing shakes off the faring. No longer fun to ride anymore on Ohio's terrible roads. But, as stated, fully loaded, it rides a bit better.
My springs look kind of yellow. I'm not sure how old mine are since I bought them from someone on this board, but they were new, not used, and had been sitting on the shelf for some time before I got them.
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I pulled out the 15wt oil that was at 150mm and poured in Dexon II at 170mm, took it for a ride, and now the forks are noticably more supple over bumps. Maybe all I really needed to do was put the 15 wt oil at 170mm, but I'm happy with how it feels for now. I've always liked the feel of the forks being a bit softer than the shock.
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Last Saturday was cool and rainy so I spent about 6 hours pulling the forks and installing the eumulators that have been setting on the shelf for two years, and then I reinstalling the forks. Today I finally had an opportunity to try them out and and oh my.... What a difference! I found my self looking for rough spots and potholes in the road to try out the new found "suppleness". Places in the road that I've avoided before were now targeted and now "smooth"! There's also a great improvement in braking, with much less fork dive. I'm sold on these things! Sorry it took me so long to give them a try.