Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: 84Sabre on March 16, 2016, 07:47:13 AM
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I've searched the forums and I haven't really found general info pertaining to the Concours and Darkside. If there is one, can I get a link?
I've been doing a lot of looking into Darkside ever since I took a motorcycle class and the instructor had a car tire on his FJR. Swears by them, told everyone to try it. I had heard of it before, but now I want to jump on it once I get my Concours.
I recently started reading about people also putting the rear tire on the front. Would that mount like a regular front tire? Would it even fit? Anyone here do it?
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Good luck with this one, Homeboy. ;D
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Did somebody say oil thread?
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First off, "to each their own!" That being said 84 Sabre, a very broad rule of thumb or "litmus test" so to speak is to look at what the pro's are doing to give you an idea if something will work or not. This rule does NOT apply to everything and is just a very broad guideline one can use as a starting point. "I" am NOT a pro, I do have 41 years of riding experience under my belt that includes dirt racing, street racing, drag racing, being a professional test rider for Harley Davidson and yet I am still learning each and every time I throw a leg over the saddle! In all of my years I have NEVER seen someone mount a car tire on a bike or mount a rear tire on the front and then think that it "might" be a good idea which then inspired someone else to run out and do it. I very rarely post to forums because I like to avoid conversations that in my opinion should not even be taking place because they are silly, but this string definitely struck a cord this morning. I know it's just my opinion, but you should really take a step back and think about what you are wanting to do! If you really feel the need to do something like this then for the safety of others don't take anyone else on the bike with you when you roll out of the garage! Stay safe!
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Sure seems wrong. When cornering you'll be up on the narrow edge / corner of the car tire, which as far as I know wasn't designed for that. Of course a car weighs a lot more than a bike, but still, right on the corner of the tire like that, and pushing outward into a slide ... hmmm.
That said, last time I was at the Dragon there was a guy on a cruiser (not a Connie) with a car tire, hangin' out at the end of the ride, happily conversing and seemingly no worse for the wear.
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:popcorn:
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...but this string definitely struck a cord this morning.
It's what I expected before posting. These conversations always get super heated wherever I read it. The people that have never done it get irritated and the people that do it swear by it, so threads usually seem to go downhill quick.
Sure seems wrong. When cornering you'll be up on the narrow edge / corner of the car tire, which as far as I know wasn't designed for that. Of course a car weighs a lot more than a bike, but still, right on the corner of the tire like that, and pushing outward into a slide ... hmmm.
According to everything I found online and on videos, the edge of the tire bends during turns and has the same contact patch as a motorcycle tire. The instructor was some 60 year old guy on an FJR and rides year round and only has a truck to move motorcycles he works on.
That's the only reason I was considering. He demonstrated cornering with the car tire and the FJR took it just fine.
The rear tire on the front supposedly gives more traction and last longer? He didn't do that, but that's just something else I read.
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Did somebody say oil thread?
:rotflmao: Not me, I learned my lesson!
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Just a quick note about putting a rear tire on the front:
Take a look at the width of the rim. The front rim will not take a rear tire (not one from the Concours anyway).
Besides that, unless you remove the front fender, you can't go a whole lot wider without changing more things out. Go too wide and it won't fit between the forks.
How long do you need the front tire to last? I normally get around 10-12k on the front tire and 7-8 on the rear (all depends on rider, style of riding, tire compound and such, but that's an average for me). The front tire is $140 and if you bring the bike to them, $40-60 to install. Rear tires are closer to $200 and you can easily get the wheel off and bring it in, so you can get it installed at Cycle Gear for $15 or a dealer for under $40.
I just don't understand what you gain by doing these changes. I remember hearing that the car tire is cheaper. But if you are buying a brand new Concours, for $14k+, does it matter if you spend $100 vs $230 for a tire or if you go through 3 normal tires in the span of one car tire, $100 vs $690?
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I've searched the forums and I haven't really found general info pertaining to the Concours and Darkside. If there is one, can I get a link?
I've been doing a lot of looking into Darkside ever since I took a motorcycle class and the instructor had a car tire on his FJR. Swears by them, told everyone to try it. I had heard of it before, but now I want to jump on it once I get my Concours.
I recently started reading about people also putting the rear tire on the front. Would that mount like a regular front tire? Would it even fit? Anyone here do it?
well, first off I'll say this, when you get around to buying a C14, you have about 4,000 miles to figure out what tire you want to use for replacement...
this thread is moot with regard to owning a C14. and is about as productive as "what color is your bike"...
secondly, your "searches" here or on the ZG Fanatics forum, are lacking, might want to spruce up on using the "search" feature on both... specifically relating to "car tire".
we have worn out the treads on this subject, and frankly the general concensus is... " no matter what the majority says, you will do what you will do..."
best of luck, ride safe,
enjoy.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2)
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we have worn out the treads on this subject, and frankly the general concensus is... " no matter what the majority says, you will do what you will do..."
best of luck, ride safe,
enjoy.
+1 on that!
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This is very common on Goldwing's & also ST1300'S. I've rode a buddies ST1300 with a car tire & it handled just fine. Another friend has a 2010 Goldwing & is on his 3rd rear car tire, Followed him threw the Dragon one time & he did fine. While I don't see a problem with it I will not put one on my bike, Many on their high pulpit will preach about the evil's of doing it but to each his own :chugbeer:
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I don't think anyone in their right mind would even consider putting a car tire on a quality/performance motorcycle like the C14. I think it would be unsafe and handle poorly in EVERY condition. But, it is your bike/life!
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A thousand word picture...
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A thousand word picture...
Indeed.
A car tire is NOT designed to be ridden on the edge like that.... EVER. DANGEROUS (and that cruiser thing can't even hardly corner). And the transition from one state (flat) to another (non-flat) is bound to be abrupt, which, is also DANGEROUS. And it has no tread designed to deal with water in such a position. DANGEROUS.
Possibly tied with brakes, nothing connected to a motorcycle is more safety-important than tires... tires designed to deal with the types of forces and traction needed to keep a motorcycle connected to the road and moving predictably. Again, anyone in their right mind would never put a few dollars [possibly] saved by trying to mount such a improper tire above their safety.
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There are certain tires that have a rounder profile & also flex a little. My friends are both running the same tire & having followed them for many miles I've never seen theirs bikes look like that one in the picture in a corner. The tire on that bike is about as square as they come. But like I said, I would not put one on mine either :chugbeer:
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This seems to be like a previous post where it may be ok for some but not for me. A bottle rocket reference comes to mind...
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I had a car tire on a Honda VTX (cruiser v twin) a few years back. Seemed to work fine, but I don't believe I'd do it again...especially not on a C14.
As for oil, I use Rotella T6...also use Valvline 10w40...also use "genuine" Kawasaki oil, but have no idea who makes it. Use what you want, but keep it clean! :thumbs:
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If I had a really long trip planned with lots of slab riding to be done, then I would be tempted. I'd keep it sane in the twisties if I was darksiding.
The C14 is most likely off the bottom end or at least on the boundary on the list of bikes that some would try car tires on IMO. Wings being at the top
of the list. Here is an interesting thread: http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/why-yellow-wolf-runs-car-tires.1008923/ (http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/why-yellow-wolf-runs-car-tires.1008923/)
..and some more...
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=35036.msg184763#msg184763 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=35036.msg184763#msg184763)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2;params=eJw9j8EKwkAMRH9FevEyB5Nsa_s1ZbsbsFrbsl0VoR9vVkTIZd4wYcbHp5-Dxv24017tm_oULvm9qgE2MKRiOQFDUKPBGWTXoAXV6EAE6uAY3MIR3AnSQVpwB3YQkwRpIBYXiCXNIrD9a8CWqsEGQSeQgBycXV2KXJZXH5b7OmkuXQp6DFcNuV_m6f0jS8p9HJOpqFv4EVNJJ_3u-k8yWAWfDnlMWh2iT7dtjPoBgvVNIg..
(http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?action=search2;params=eJw9j8EKwkAMRH9FevEyB5Nsa_s1ZbsbsFrbsl0VoR9vVkTIZd4wYcbHp5-Dxv24017tm_oULvm9qgE2MKRiOQFDUKPBGWTXoAXV6EAE6uAY3MIR3AnSQVpwB3YQkwRpIBYXiCXNIrD9a8CWqsEGQSeQgBycXV2KXJZXH5b7OmkuXQp6DFcNuV_m6f0jS8p9HJOpqFv4EVNJJ_3u-k8yWAWfDnlMWh2iT7dtjPoBgvVNIg..)
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I bought this bike to NOT keep it sane, that's what my car is for.
Darkside sounds dumb to me but I know little about it, people swear by it. Not for me!
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+1
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SHEESH.
My 2008 C14 with the CAR TYRE on it and the "REAR ONLY" tyre on the FRONT is parked outside in the hotel lot as I type this. Guilty as charged. Still.
Feel free to ignore the comments from folks who have no experience with running a CT, but seem pretty sure they know ALL ABOUT IT. Hell, ignore this post if you like. But I have well over 100,000 miles on CT in the last five years alone, so maybe you will find something useful here. I do not know it all, but I am a scientist at work and when I got interested in "the CT thing", I read everything I could find, started talking to everybody that had tried it, and started measuring tyres and such.
First, the rear tyre on the front thing. The idea is to find a REAR tyre in the FRONT size. Folks, read that a few times before you get out the flamethrowers, ok? The main difference between F and R? NOT the rubber compounds...NOT the carcass construction...sometimes the tread patterns are similar, sometimes quite different...the main difference is the tread is much thicker on the REAR. So you put a REAR (in the correct front size) on the FRONT in order to extend tire life. I have a 130/70R17 right now. Yeah, I know...
Next, the main event...CAR TYRE on a C14. I have two C14s. Pirelli Angel GTs on one, Bridgestone BT45 REAR on the front, and the evil CT on the rear of the other. I have almost 80,000 miles on CTs on the C14, and ran a CT for over 35,000 on my C10 before that.
There are lots of "FAIRY TALES" about contact patch size and shape, rim shapes. tyre sizes, safety, cornering, and $$. Some of them are already in this short thread. There are a few facts, too. The 100,000 miles is a fact. We live in the mountains, so EVERY ride begins and ends with high speed twisties. I wear out the edges on the fronts and throw away lots of center rubber every time. I ride at a pretty good pace, but do not race on the street. Wore another set of footpegs out last year and had to get new. (the CT and the REAR on the front are taller than stock, so there is even more ground clearance than stock!). I do not ride like a beginner or somebody on a bike that can't corner decently. Or a guy on a Gold Wing. The CT does not handle like a Moto Tyre, but it is not so different either. It takes a little getting used to. I ride a lot, and do not own a car. All weather, even when that kinda sucks. The CT is the least of my worries.
I can go around corners as fast as I want to anytime, and I usually like faster better than slower.
Facts!
I do not run a CT because I am cheap, but because the heavy duty carcass is so strong. After my last two Moto Rears picked up nails, and then failed SUDDENLY, in the dark, a long way from home, I decided to take a chance and try the CT for a long distance competitive rally I was going to be doing. I expected the CT to suck, and to be a bad idea, and to change it out right after that rally.
But I tried it anyway. You can see how that worked out...
I expect the CT will stay on the rim a lot better than a Moto Tyre in the event of a sudden blowout (that last bit is opinion). But I have not had such a blowout. My last CT had three small nails in it when I took it off. I did not even know they were there. Still had about 2mm tread depth, but it was time for a new one. It still held air, and I had gotten a little too comfortable with the reliability of the CT. I have to remember to check the CT all the time so that does not happen again. A Moto Tyre might have been fine like that too, but I expect it would have blown out on the interstate from the first nail. I REALLY hate getting flats at night, or in the rain, or a long way from home. I carry a compressor, sealant in a can, and "gummy worm" tyre plugs all the time. I only seem to use them on Moto Tyres on other people's bikes these days.
I have begun to think of the CT as "a better, safer tyre that lasts a long time". It stopped being an experiment a long time ago. The CT rubber is actually SOFTER than any of the Moto Tyres I have measured (flame me after you have measured lots of tyres with a durometer like I have, ok?). A physicist will tell you that softer rubber will give you more traction, and that the tyre contact patch size and shape DO NOT MATTER ONE BIT.
I AM a Physicist.
I measured tyre contact patches on the two C14s. One with the CT, one with the Angels. The contact patches are almost exactly the same size for both C14s (no surprises there). Then I got some heavy tie downs to hold the bike up, and measured the contact patches with the C14s leaned over. Not exactly like flying through a corner at speed. but I had a budget of $0, and an afternoon, and some quadrille paper. I was a little surprised when the contact patch went from short and wide to long and thin as I pitched the C14 with the CT over, AND STAYED THE SAME SIZE. No matter what the angle!
Oh, by the way... I (still) DO NOT RECOMMEND RUNNING A CAR TYRE ON A MOTORCYCLE TO ANYBODY. You should probably take your C14 to the Kawasaki dealer and have them put on approved tyres in the correct sizes every time.
I do recommend making informed decisions, not based on hysteria.
Folks can say what they like, but lots of folks are just making **** up. Which is fine, but you should know that. The stuff you will hear about contact patches and tyre edges and traction is mostly just guessing, and mostly just wrong. But it is late and I have posted all that on this forum before. Search for it if you like, or send me a message if you want to read more.
dat
sax
man
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Great post datsaxman....
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Yes it is. Makes me wonder why they even manufacture motorcycle specific tires at all any more.
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Yes it is. Makes me wonder why they even manufacture motorcycle specific tires at all any more.
For the 99.7 % of the riders who would prefer a properly fitted tire you silly rabbit....
I'm most appreciative that at least it is from actual use and not repeated mantra...
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Yes it is. Makes me wonder why they even manufacture motorcycle specific tires at all any more.
For the 99.7 % of the riders who would prefer a properly fitted tire you silly rabbit....
I'm most appreciative that at least it is from actual use and not repeated mantra...
Just a guess on my part but I'm thinking that Mr Pink's statement above is/was dripping with sarcasm. ::) ;)
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The CT rubber is actually SOFTER than any of the Moto Tyres I have measured (flame me after you have measured lots of tyres with a durometer like I have, ok?). A physicist will tell you that softer rubber will give you more traction, and that the tyre contact patch size and shape DO NOT MATTER ONE BIT.
I AM a Physicist.
I measured tyre contact patches on the two C14s. One with the CT, one with the Angels. The contact patches are almost exactly the same size for both C14s (no surprises there). Then I got some heavy tie downs to hold the bike up, and measured the contact patches with the C14s leaned over. Not exactly like flying through a corner at speed. but I had a budget of $0, and an afternoon, and some quadrille paper. I was a little surprised when the contact patch went from short and wide to long and thin as I pitched the C14 with the CT over, AND STAYED THE SAME SIZE. No matter what the angle!
I'm not a physicist, but an engineer, but I'll tell you the same: contact patch size and shape do not matter for grip... theoretically, in static conditions. When the wheel is rolling, drag, drift angle, temperature and a few other factors (to give you a hint, a computer model of a tire has around 300 factors, some measured, some calculated) influence the grip and hence the outcome of your cornering.
Pros don't use car tires. Just like ophthalmologists don't do lasik.
Another bit of anecdote: when a new bike is about to go on sale in Germany, it is released with a couple of tire models, which are selected among a pool of at least 3, but usually 6 different tires. The test drivers can tell the minute differences between those tires. Warm up times, drift characteristics and low and high speed stabilities are just a couple of 70 or so different things they look at.
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I'm not a highly educated guy but I like to think that I have a bit of sense, so I am confused. If contact patch size has little to no effect, why do high performance vehicles have comparably larger tires? I understand that a smaller, stickier tire could conceivably have better traction than a larger "slicker" tire. Given 2 tires of equal rubber compounds, wouldn't the tire with a larger contact patch afford better traction? If not, why would race cars not use skinny tires to reduce wind and rolling resistance?
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Great post datsaxman....
I'm most appreciative that at least it is from actual use and not repeated mantra...
+2
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I was also involved in the custom motorcycle industry when builders were putting those ridiculously wide rear tires on bikes with really narrow front tires and it was learned that due to the huge difference in the radius of the tread area handling anomalies abounded. (Don't bother to rant about how ill handling those types of bikes are due to a multitude of other factors. When a tire with a tighter tread radius was installed the bike handled better.)
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I'm not a physicist, but an engineer, but I'll tell you the same: contact patch size and shape do not matter for grip... theoretically, in static conditions. When the wheel is rolling, drag, drift angle, temperature and a few other factors (to give you a hint, a computer model of a tire has around 300 factors, some measured, some calculated) influence the grip and hence the outcome of your cornering.
Pros don't use car tires. Just like ophthalmologists don't do lasik.
Another bit of anecdote: when a new bike is about to go on sale in Germany, it is released with a couple of tire models, which are selected among a pool of at least 3, but usually 6 different tires. The test drivers can tell the minute differences between those tires. Warm up times, drift characteristics and low and high speed stabilities are just a couple of 70 or so different things they look at.
I don't know...my eye doctor had lasik done. :stirpot:
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Lots to do, and little time right now...here we go...in no particular order...
First, I am ALWAYS impressed and glad that the collective response to the CT thing is so...civil.
THANK YOU ALL FOR THAT. It matters, and is appreciated.
** Wide Tyres: For straight line stability, for longevity (lots of very sticky rubber), etc.
** Why Don't Racers Use CT If They Are So Great? Non Sequitur! Race bikes have no lights, brakes and tyres that are wasted after 40 minutes, cannot idle without overheating, etc.
** Lots Of Variables To Traction: The most important are 1) Coefficient of Friction between the two materials in contact (how sticky the tyre is here, plus how rough and clean the road is)...2) Normal Force pushing the two surfaces together (the weight on the tyre here). The other zillion variables are essentially noise here. This is not NASCAR or NHRA, but street touring motorcycles, possibly being ridden vigorously.
** Wide Tyres Do Not Handle As Well As Skinny Tyres. TRUE. The difference between a shagged front and a fresh one is WAY MORE than the difference between the CT and a Moto Tyre. That is my opinion. yours may not agree. Assuming you have tried a CT.
As always, I heartily recommend you only run the officially sanctioned tyres available at your local Kawasaki shop, and have all tyres and replacement parts installed by them as well.
DO NOT RUN CTs ON MOTORCYCLES!!
dat
sax
man
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Lots to do, and little time right now...here we go...in no particular order...
First, I am ALWAYS impressed and glad that the collective response to the CT thing is so...civil.
THANK YOU ALL FOR THAT. It matters, and is appreciated.
** Wide Tyres: For straight line stability, for longevity (lots of very sticky rubber), etc.
** Why Don't Racers Use CT If They Are So Great? Non Sequitur! Race bikes have no lights, brakes and tyres that are wasted after 40 minutes, cannot idle without overheating, etc.
** Lots Of Variables To Traction: The most important are 1) Coefficient of Friction between the two materials in contact (how sticky the tyre is here, plus how rough and clean the road is)...2) Normal Force pushing the two surfaces together (the weight on the tyre here). The other zillion variables are essentially noise here. This is not NASCAR or NHRA, but street touring motorcycles, possibly being ridden vigorously.
** Wide Tyres Do Not Handle As Well As Skinny Tyres. TRUE. The difference between a shagged front and a fresh one is WAY MORE than the difference between the CT and a Moto Tyre. That is my opinion. yours may not agree. Assuming you have tried a CT.
As always, I heartily recommend you only run the officially sanctioned tyres available at your local Kawasaki shop, and have all tyres and replacement parts installed by them as well.
DO NOT RUN CTs ON MOTORCYCLES!!
dat
sax
man
:stirpot: :popcorn: :popcorn:
as I put Tires on my bike, and ride on Tires
I have to say your post is kinda spot on...
especially because the term I use for those doughnut things is not spelled with a "Y".. I use tires, not Tyres..
so there is no "Y" in my choice of what to mount.
I do not need to experiment to find something.
I have enough sense to make a decision, based on dimensional facts, and design intent, and fully knowing that even though you CAN spoon a car tire onto a Bike rim, the seal area of the rim, was not designed for the dimensions and intimate mating of a car tires dimensions relating to that bead area.
yes, I actually ran a car tire on my old Harley.. back when.
Putting one on a modern bike is kinda moot.
thanks for your test results, and if one person can change mindset of a populace, it goes a long way.
I do agree on your safety statement " DO NOT RUN CTs ON MOTORCYCLES!!"
so, there it is in a nutshell... :thumbs: :deadhorse: :hitfan: :stirpot: :deadhorse: :thumbs: :chugbeer: :doh: :doh: :doh: :hitfan:
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so... tires or tyres?
Y'm so confused...
Regarding Deziner's question about why some things are done in a particular way in competition, it has a lot more to do with regulations of that particular motorsport than with what is needed on the street, for layman like you and I. An F1 car (I have no clue about Nascar or such) idles at 4000 rpm, so that'd give you an idea of how purposeful those vehicles are, and how useless they become as soon as you take them out of the environment they are meant to be in. Another tidbit of F1 cars: 50% of the suspension travel comes from the tire itself (look at the high sidewalls). And so on. You can't really take things from competition and straight on the street. That's why I said "pros" don't use CTs. I'm sure there are advantages to CTs and they could be used in some type of competition. But on the street... for us...
All that said, I'd love to ride with datsaxman and see what I might be missing, to be honest.
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This has kinda morphed into a general CT thread so I'm moving it over to the Open area..
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Martin,
Great idea! That is quite a commute though...
dat
sax
man
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Yes, the only real factual concern I had about the CT - spell it whichever way you like and it changes nothing - was the bead retention area of the wheel. Simply put, the car wheel is a different shape from the MC wheel. Each has a standardized shape, and the round rubbery pneumatic thingies are designed to take advantage of the shape.
** Also, as a separate issue of no concern to Concours owners, 15" car wheels are actually different diameter than MC wheels. It is a small small difference, but I would be very concerned with 15" fitments.
**
Bottom line, I tried the CT on the moto wheel. YES, I WAS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT BEAD SHAPE DIFFERENCES!! Again, a lot of miles later, there have been zero problems.
They do not leak enough to say so. I check pressures every week or so. Sometimes it needs a few PSI and other times it does not.
The CT is not difficult to install. Some folks tell scary stories about CTs - or even MTs - not seating and exploding at shops with very high inflation pressures. NEVER overinflate ANY pneumatic CT or MT. Pressurized air is a BOMB, looking to explode if you are not careful. Big truck shops have heavy steel inflation cages, and explosions HAPPEN. I put the pneumatic thingies myself with four 18" irons, rarely needing them all (but always needing three), and Ru-Glyde for the slippery stuff. The CTs always seem to seal right away, 40-45-50 PSI maximum. I run the CT at 40-45PSI, as it does not seem finicky about exact pressure. Some folks say it is hard to get a CT mounted on a moto wheel at a shop, but I already have been putting the MTs on the moto wheels for too long to worry about it.
Anyway...and as always...thanks for the discussion, and the several PMs.
Purolator PSL 14610, Rotella T6. Hahahahaha....
dsm
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I've gotta say...this has been one of the most civil car tire threads I've seen.
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I've gotta say...this has been one of the most civil car tire threads I've seen.
+1
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I've gotta say...this has been one of the most civil car tyres threads I've seen.
FIFY ;D
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8241/8489977573_26a80bf173_b.jpg)
gr33nmAn
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Did it really take 5 years for a dummy to speak out?
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I don't know, ask PH14. He's got a dummy.....er little wooden man (easy boys). Could be genetic.
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I don't know, ask PH14. He's got a dummy.....er little wooden man (easy boys). Could be genetic.
The guy that posted the dummies has allegedly been a forum member since 2011 and that was his first post.
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The guy that posted the dummies has allegedly been a forum member since 2011 and that was his first post.
There was a forumnami back then that washed up a lot of hard feelings and left a schism and two forums. Some folks active on only one and some on both.
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The guy that posted the dummies has allegedly been a forum member since 2011 and that was his first post.
Actually 12th post; only one was counted....
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Do we have hanging chads like they did in Florida?
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:) Something like that...compare your post count with your actual posts in your profile.
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Do we have hanging chads like they did in Florida?
Post in the non-motorcycle sections such as the open forum do not count...
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I see said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw.
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I see said the blind man to his deaf sister, as he picked up his hammer and saw.
fify
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I have a good friend who owns a 1999 Honda Valkrye.
For whatever the reason, Honda failed to put a centerstand on it.
Then, the saddle bags bolt on, and take a lot of effort to remove. They must be removed, in order to remove the rear tire. He's taken the bike to a local bike shop 3 times now for rear tire replacements.
(An expensive drag, every 7-9k miles.)
So, he read, researched, studied, and spoke with guys who had gone to the darkside for their personal opinions of running a rear car tire. All were favorable. Most were claiming between 25k-35k miles of life.
So, he went this way, his last tire change, which was about 8k miles ago.
For the most part, he likes it. Only gripe; doesn't track very well on uneven pavement.
I've ridden behind him for a lot of those miles, and he has no problems with handling or traction going through the curves.
Do I get sick of having to spend $200 on a rear tire, every 10-12k miles? Yep.
Would I like to get that kind of mileage? Yep!
Would I do it on a C14? Nope.
For him, and his bike, it's worked well. For me on a Connie? Seriously doubt it.
If I had no centerstand, or were my bags / brackets bolted on, I'd probably try it.
But, it's too easy and quick to change a rear tire on a C14.
But, I will say I agree with what was said about nail/ screw damage to MC tires being tough/ impossible to repair. Car tires repair better, and easier.
But, I prefer not to go 35k miles before pulling the rear tire between FD gear lubes.
To each his own, I say.
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Do we have hanging chads like they did in Florida?
We don't hang them 'round these parts. We like to use one of these instead.
(http://www.guillotine.dk/Media/Plast.jpg)
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Lots of discussions of this over on the V-Strom forums:
http://www.stromtrooper.com/general-v-strom-discussion/73955-darkside-tire-choices.html (http://www.stromtrooper.com/general-v-strom-discussion/73955-darkside-tire-choices.html)
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I failed to see ANYTHING about guillotines.
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I failed to see ANYTHING about guillotines.
You must mean this forum... http://guillotine.cultureforum.net/ (http://guillotine.cultureforum.net/)
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That's better.
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I had about 100K miles combined on the Darkside of a Roadstar and a Venture (Yamaha) It was fantastic to say the least. Doing it right you match it with a Rear tire for the front that leans in unison with the Wider Rear you installed. You get your Air pressures dialed in and off you go and change the both of the tires out at around 30K miles (They will go more in my cases but they just feel different that last 1/4 of life)
With all that experience I say DO NOT put one on a Connie. I would LOVE to if there was a combo and a need.
First, It's a Cruiser thing. They are not getting the lean angle we do and the main reason is longivity for a trip. I was laid off at the time I did it and rode over 35K two years in a row. I was sick of changing tires on the road. AND my bike two up loaded was over the Gross Weight rating of any MC tire available so right there it was safer.
It also raised the bike a bit giving me more clearance to lean more and I did, scraping the exhaust.
On a Road bike, it is an advantage, You are just touring, riding, long, just one loop of the USA and you would change tires twice, With the Darkside you can loop the USA twice and not change tires. Traction was crazy good, Mud, snow, sleet, hail, sand, gravel and in the rain it shot back a Rooster tail! The beefier Rear on the front really felt good too in the combo.
Here was the problem. Typically The Darkside choice is a Race or Taxi type tire. I had a taxi tire on one bike and a Front Dragster tire on the Other. They had incredibly strong sidewalls to handle the force all the naysayers **** their panties over. Trust me that was never an issue. But here is what is an issue. Of course it's a Radial tire, and it does flex, so will your butthole the first time you are leaning into curvy ramp and also hit some bumps at the same time. Leaned, the bike bounces, like a ball. It's an uneasy feeling that will upset you if you don't keep your nerve and ride it out.
I should mention this same flex the radial tires have when going over bumps adds an incredible amount of comfort in it's shock absorbing capabilities, another Darkside cruiser advantage, Ride comfort!
Another thing is Speed, Cruisers are not getting to, or Over 100 MPH as fast as we do. And there is the other weakness of the Darkside tire, if you spin it too quickly it can't change it's shape as fast as it needs to and you will get what those that have soiled their panties call Tank Slap. They don't know what it was.
The Car tire can go over 100 in my cases easily. UNTIL you add a curve to the process and it is there the tire can't handle the transition from it's design to run flat, to run on the edge at high speed. It will fight you and it will win if you don't back it down.
So thats what makes it a SERIOUS NO GO for a C14 or really any Sport bike.
You can mount one on a Cruiser and go all 30K miles floating around sight seeing even aggressively slaying the dragon. It's at High speed where the tire edge cannot change quick enough to keep up with the speed, once the tire deforms, it will buck you. I had mine up to 110 on a straight, I also nearly lost it in an Interstate curve going 90.
A Connie is always quickly accelerating, and going fast into curves. (At least I am) Even if you could (And I know of two that have) Fit a tire to the rim and run it. You would be limiting the bike to cruiser ability.
The first time you hit bumps or holes in a curve you might get a lesson your road rash would prove you got.
If you were over 100 and hit a curve, you might just totally lose it altogether! Like I said, the tire can flex up to normal speeds, but beyond that, once it transfers the weight onto that stronger sidewall Darksiders Hand pick, The whole handling of the bike changes and the tire, suspension and the ride can't keep up with those changes and there is the opportunity for the catastrophic results Darksiders warn about.
Yes, I could mount A rear Darkside and ride the US knowing all this, but I have just crippled the agility and speed of a great bike. I'd get 30K miles but I would not have much fun in the curves doing it. And high speeds would be iffy.
So although I would LOVE to. I have to be thankful for the Traction Control I have and the ABS (Two things my Darkside Bikes did not have and the Darkside configuration Really helped with, Traction going and stopping!)
The only drawback we have is, changing, at least, the rear tire on a 10K mile plus trip at least once and Both tires before 22K PITA yes, but small price to pay for all the leaning and high speeds you get to do.
I did keep my Darkside bike for one winter, because I always rode all winter long on the darkside. But I let it go because the Connie was so much more fun to ride and the maint of two bikes was not in my lifestyle.
So, with the fact that the rear tires can't really handle sport bike speeds and lean angles, and that I doubt a Rear MC tire on the front could ever be a possibility on a Connie due to the cramped wheel well. I say we will NEVER see the Darkside properly and safely run on a C14.
If you want that, buy a bike that is popular in the Darkside tire database. I've seen one Concours Darkside listed (NO REAR TIRE ON THE FRONT so it is an Incomplete Darkside IMHO.) and I doubt he really liked it. IF he's still alive, the tire he mounted has been known to shred on cars.
If I ever get a GW, I will go back to the darkside if they don't make it illegal, but as much as a LOVED the darkside on my Cruisers, there is no way I see me running it on a Connie as much as i would love to go 30K again without changing tires.
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To each his own. No accounting for what turns some people on.....
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Interesting post, MS1400.
Thanks for your input, I hope it helps somebody.