Author Topic: Rostra Cruise will not always reengage (Read 15022 times)

xsv · « **on:** March 21, 2012, 07:24:50 AM »

I installed the Rostra on my 09 Concours about 18 months ago. I originally started out with the pretty little switch, but it went bad in a heavy downpour. I installed a momentary on/off/on toggle with the rostra power always on.

The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.

I have posted this problem before and most advise took me to the ground wire. Unfortunately, the ground wire appears to be good. I currently have an email into Rostra, but am wondering if I am the only one experiencing this fairly intermittent problem.

It should be noted that the issue did not start with the install of the toggle.

DonB · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2012, 08:26:31 AM »

I just installed one on my 12 and have not had time to use it much, but I think I am having the same problem. have not ridden it enough yet to worry about it. maybe someone will chime in before I dig into it and see what I can find. I am thinking a dip switch is set wrong but not sure

oldnslo · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2012, 10:33:33 AM »

Quote from: xsv on March 21, 2012, 07:24:50 AM

I installed the Rostra on my 09 Concours about 18 months ago. I originally started out with the pretty little switch, but it went bad in a heavy downpour. I installed a momentary on/off/on toggle with the rostra power always on.

The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.

I have posted this problem before and most advise took me to the ground wire. Unfortunately, the ground wire appears to be good. I currently have an email into Rostra, but am wondering if I am the only one experiencing this fairly intermittent problem.

It should be noted that the issue did not start with the install of the toggle.

me too, hope you get feedback from rostra..

Mal · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2012, 02:03:26 PM »

Quote from: xsv on March 21, 2012, 07:24:50 AM

The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.

Same issue, but I can usually cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it won't reengage. I can get it to start working again by turning the cruise off and back on again. Then I reset my speed and can cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it happens again. Then I have to turn the cruise off and on again and reset the speed...

Nothing really major, but annoying... I hope you hear something.

just gone · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2012, 02:08:44 PM »

Quote from: xsv on March 21, 2012, 07:24:50 AM

.....with the rostra power always on.

I understand that you are looking to find out a reason that it does this, so I'm only recommending this as a short term
solution, but you need to put another power switch somewhere so you can reset it on the fly. A normally closed momentary switch
would be a solution that would leave it like it is (always on) except when it seems to quit responding then it would be like a "reset" switch. Not what you were looking for, but at least you wouldn't need to stop the bike to re-engage it. Mine will occasionally act like that when I over-ride it to pass by giving it a lot more throttle and then before it can resume I hit the brake or clutch (due to traffic or road conditions). I think it goes into a "that does not compute" safety shutdown mode. I have to power off and on before I can re-engage.

I think the Rostra works well normally for what we ask of it, that is to respond linearly to a rotational device. Someone (maybe me, if I ever get the time) needs to come up with a curved arm (think quarter pulley) that can be attached to the throttle arm with the Rostra cable going around it and coming at it from the front of the bike instead of below the bike. That way the Rostra could respond rotationally to a rotational device. Ideally it would have a radius such that the full throttle cable range would closely match the full Rostra cable range. I think there maybe enough room for that, but just barely. Such a set up would make the Rostra less likely to go "TILT", in my opinion.

(It all made sense when I typed it, but now I'm not so sure.

)

Does anybody with a McCruise have pictures of their install? I've always assumed that it came with a curved arm that attached to
the throttle arm or some how piggybacked on the throttle cable to use it's pulley.

xsv · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2012, 04:09:39 PM »

Good suggestion on the reset switch. I have been shutting it down at 70 and quickly restarting.

I heard back from rostra technical support. I know that it is the world we
Live in, but......due to liability reasons they do not offer support to motorcycle applications.

stlheadake · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2012, 06:01:45 PM »

OK I've had mine installed for about 9 months. It started out working just fine. However it now does EXACTLY the same thing. I am using the nifty little switch that Murph sells with the kit, and it appears to be quite waterproof. Everything works as it should canceling with brakes or clutch. However, If I grab the clutch it will not re-engage. There also seem to be times when it won't re-engage when I grab the brakes, but I can't recall for sure. Either way, I have to turn it off and then back on, then it works fine again.

Actually, now that I think of this, this all started after I took it in to the dealer for the 25,000 mile service plus a leaking valve cover. So I'm sure that there must be some sort of loose wire or something. I'm also interested in a fix. If you discover something, please let us know!

B.D.F. · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2012, 02:36:35 PM »

Interesting. I have not seen or heard of that problem before although it seems that you are not alone.

I assume the ON- OFF- ON toggle is wired to function in place of the SET and RESUME switches on the Rostra switch? I had mine also wired so it was 'ON' all the time and used two momentary contact switches as the SET and RESUME buttons but the switches also failed over time and weather exposure. Other than the switches themselves failing, the actuator itself worked correctly all the time with the single switches in place of the gang switch.

Just a kind of off the cuff thought here but perhaps there is too much slack in the Rostra cable? The reason I mention this is because more than one person has had trouble with slack in the cable with a Rostra- that is one of its few internal checks against malfunction. When you engage a Rostra, the motor turns at a fixed rate (the only speed it has) and begins taking up throttle cable until the VSS registers and increase in speed. The Rostra measures the time between engagement and that VSS increase- if it takes too long, the Rostra disengages for safety reasons (it is assumed something is loose or incorrectly connected to the throttle). Once you have used the Rostra, it disengages a clutch and releases the throttle and <may> leave the actual throttle position alone. If this is the case (a guess on my part), then the unit would have to send the throttle all the way to closed, engage the clutch and then begin to take up the slack in the throttle until the vehicle's speed increases. So it would take longer to re- engage than it did the first time after a cold start (power off). If you are near the maximum amount of slack in the Rostra throttle cable to begin with, perhaps this extra travel time kicks the unit over the edge into an error? Again, just a thought on my part but I would check the unit and make sure there is no more than about 1/8" free travel in the Rostra cable until the throttle is taken off its idle stop. There has to be some play in the Rostra cable of course but it cannot be too much.

Brian

I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?

Quote from: xsv on March 21, 2012, 07:24:50 AM

I installed the Rostra on my 09 Concours about 18 months ago. I originally started out with the pretty little switch, but it went bad in a heavy downpour. I installed a momentary on/off/on toggle with the rostra power always on.

The toggle worked well. However, I have an intermittent problem (the best kind!). If the cruise control is engaged and I hit the break or clutch then it releases as it should. When I go to reengage it, it "normally" will not work. I must kill the power to the bike and then it will function again. I say normally because about 80% of the time I must turn the bike off and then back on to get it to work again. Other times I can engage/disengage 3 or 4 times before it stops functioning.

I have posted this problem before and most advise took me to the ground wire. Unfortunately, the ground wire appears to be good. I currently have an email into Rostra, but am wondering if I am the only one experiencing this fairly intermittent problem.

It should be noted that the issue did not start with the install of the toggle.

B.D.F. · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2012, 02:48:02 PM »

Yep, you are absolutely correct about the Rostra's response being non-linear but it does not really matter. The useful range of throttle movement on a CC is so small that it does not change appreciably over that travel. As the cable attaches at approx. 90 degrees on the throttle arm, and the throttle's movement is only a few degrees, we can disregard any non- linearity in the loop closure behavior and treat it as if it were linear- really it will be close enough. Besides all of that, even if the CC's attachment were rotary, the response of the engine to throttle movement itself in non- linear anyway; opening the throttle 1/8 of the way allows more than 1/8 of the total airflow or total power, at least at low engine RPM, so whichever way you want to measure linearity.... it isn't linear. Further, as the throttle bodies and throttle plates are round, the entire system becomes even more non- linear and is less and less sensitive to throttle movement (in degrees) as the throttle is opened further and further. Put another way, the last 1/8 of the throttle travel has very little impact on power output compared with the first 1/8 throttle travel.

The MC Cruise is considerably different than a Rostra or Audiovox but only in execution, the principle is the same. The other major difference is that the Rostra is a displacement system (based on position) while the MC Cruise and Audiovox are force based systems (based on force applied- the displacement of the throttle is a secondary function of that force). The MC Cruise actually uses an Audiovox or Audiovox copy actuator and creates a new end point for the throttle cables on the motorcycle. So instead of the throttle cables attaching to the throttle plate shaft, they are moved to attach to the MC Cruise actuator and in turn the actuator has a pair of cables that go to the throttle plate shaft. Functionally it is identical to the Audiovox system- as the vehicle speed pulses decrease per unit time, there is more and more force applied to the throttle to increase the pulse rate. As to if the MC Cruise system is rotary or linear, it is rotary in nature although because of the above stated reasons I do not believe that matters.

Brian

Quote from: fartymarty on March 21, 2012, 02:08:44 PM

<snip>

I think the Rostra works well normally for what we ask of it, that is to respond linearly to a rotational device. Someone (maybe me, if I ever get the time) needs to come up with a curved arm (think quarter pulley) that can be attached to the throttle arm with the Rostra cable going around it and coming at it from the front of the bike instead of below the bike. That way the Rostra could respond rotationally to a rotational device. Ideally it would have a radius such that the full throttle cable range would closely match the full Rostra cable range. I think there maybe enough room for that, but just barely. Such a set up would make the Rostra less likely to go "TILT", in my opinion.

(It all made sense when I typed it, but now I'm not so sure. )

Does anybody with a McCruise have pictures of their install? I've always assumed that it came with a curved arm that attached to
the throttle arm or some how piggybacked on the throttle cable to use it's pulley.

Fordmender · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2012, 07:23:43 PM »

Quote from: B.D.F. on March 22, 2012, 02:36:35 PM

I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?

Yep, seems to be the case. I too, contacted Rostra tech support just the other day, in an effort to solve a curious odd problem I was having on my unit and once they were informed the application was on a motorcycle...end of discussion. I had mentioned that they had responded to others questions from both forums in the past and this guy says "no, never". I then asked if I could just run something by him and the answer was simply "NO". His tactfulness and regard for customer service definitely left much to be desired. So for the moment, I think the only tech support is going to be each other regarding Rostra issues.

xsv · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2012, 10:13:55 PM »

The toggle is wired to function in place of the set and resume switches. It is a "waterproof" toggle mounted in the plastic assembly on the other side of the horn/ windshield button housing.

I will check into the cable slack. I knew you would have at least a therory!
Thanks

Quote from: B.D.F. on March 22, 2012, 02:36:35 PM

Interesting. I have not seen or heard of that problem before although it seems that you are not alone.

I assume the ON- OFF- ON toggle is wired to function in place of the SET and RESUME switches on the Rostra switch? I had mine also wired so it was 'ON' all the time and used two momentary contact switches as the SET and RESUME buttons but the switches also failed over time and weather exposure. Other than the switches themselves failing, the actuator itself worked correctly all the time with the single switches in place of the gang switch.

Just a kind of off the cuff thought here but perhaps there is too much slack in the Rostra cable? The reason I mention this is because more than one person has had trouble with slack in the cable with a Rostra- that is one of its few internal checks against malfunction. When you engage a Rostra, the motor turns at a fixed rate (the only speed it has) and begins taking up throttle cable until the VSS registers and increase in speed. The Rostra measures the time between engagement and that VSS increase- if it takes too long, the Rostra disengages for safety reasons (it is assumed something is loose or incorrectly connected to the throttle). Once you have used the Rostra, it disengages a clutch and releases the throttle and <may> leave the actual throttle position alone. If this is the case (a guess on my part), then the unit would have to send the throttle all the way to closed, engage the clutch and then begin to take up the slack in the throttle until the vehicle's speed increases. So it would take longer to re- engage than it did the first time after a cold start (power off). If you are near the maximum amount of slack in the Rostra throttle cable to begin with, perhaps this extra travel time kicks the unit over the edge into an error? Again, just a thought on my part but I would check the unit and make sure there is no more than about 1/8" free travel in the Rostra cable until the throttle is taken off its idle stop. There has to be some play in the Rostra cable of course but it cannot be too much.

Brian

I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?

just gone · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2012, 01:06:20 AM »

Quote from: B.D.F. on March 22, 2012, 02:48:02 PM

Yep, you are absolutely correct about the Rostra's response being non-linear but it does not really matter. The useful range of throttle movement on a CC is so small that it does not change appreciably over that travel. As the cable attaches at approx. 90 degrees on the throttle arm, and the throttle's movement is only a few degrees, we can disregard any non- linearity in the loop closure behavior and treat it as if it were linear- really it will be close enough. Besides all of that, even if the CC's attachment were rotary, the response of the engine to throttle movement itself in non- linear anyway; opening the throttle 1/8 of the way allows more than 1/8 of the total airflow or total power, at least at low engine RPM, so whichever way you want to measure linearity.... it isn't linear. Further, as the throttle bodies and throttle plates are round, the entire system becomes even more non- linear and is less and less sensitive to throttle movement (in degrees) as the throttle is opened further and further. Put another way, the last 1/8 of the throttle travel has very little impact on power output compared with the first 1/8 throttle travel.

The MC Cruise is considerably different than a Rostra or Audiovox but only in execution, the principle is the same. The other major difference is that the Rostra is a displacement system (based on position) while the MC Cruise and Audiovox are force based systems (based on force applied- the displacement of the throttle is a secondary function of that force). The MC Cruise actually uses an Audiovox or Audiovox copy actuator and creates a new end point for the throttle cables on the motorcycle. So instead of the throttle cables attaching to the throttle plate shaft, they are moved to attach to the MC Cruise actuator and in turn the actuator has a pair of cables that go to the throttle plate shaft. Functionally it is identical to the Audiovox system- as the vehicle speed pulses decrease per unit time, there is more and more force applied to the throttle to increase the pulse rate. As to if the MC Cruise system is rotary or linear, it is rotary in nature although because of the above stated reasons I do not believe that matters.

Brian

Well, as usual Brian, that all makes sense and I most likely should just forget about it and save me some work. However I just have got to try my theory out, eventually.
Let me make sure that I have got the main facts correct. The McCruise and the Audiovox both have the same or same type of actuator, however the Audiovox is attached linearly (like the Rostra usually is). The McCruise actuator is actually hooked up directly to the throttle pulley (throttle plate shaft) and acts rotationally? If I've got that right
then I guess what I'm saying is, of the three only one is hooked up to act rotationally, and it is the only one of the three that I haven't
heard complaints about (except when they cough up the money to buy it

) I think what I just typed is known as an anecdotal argument and doesn't really hold water to your well thought out response. However it's enough for me to cling to.

Now about the non-linear response of the engine to throttle movement, since that would apply to an auto as well, would it be out of the question to think that the designers have an algorithm in there to compensate for that?
Anyway, it may all have to do with cable slack like you said, since in my situation it seems to only happen just after I have opened the throttle a lot more than what the Rostra was doing. Maybe after I hook up my "Engaged" LED I'll be better informed as to just when it gives up trying.
Overall I still gotta say, I love my Rostra. It's made some long (for me) trips much easier and no doubt saved me from some speeding tickets.
When I called Rostra (last summer) they were helpful, however I didn't volunteer the vehicle information until I was asked. The response was a very audible Al Gore like sigh followed by continued help but with less enthusiasm. I think it's time to tell them that we're installing them in manual transmission Honda Civics. (Pinocchio emoticon goes here)

oldnslo · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2012, 08:27:03 AM »

Quote from: Mal on March 21, 2012, 02:03:26 PM

Same issue, but I can usually cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it won't reengage. I can get it to start working again by turning the cruise off and back on again. Then I reset my speed and can cancel/reengage the cruise 2-3 times before it happens again. Then I have to turn the cruise off and on again and reset the speed...

Nothing really major, but annoying... I hope you hear something.

this is what mine does,but didn't start til about 2 years after instal.granted it's annoying but other than this quirk it works great.bang for the buck it's hard to beat.

4cedars · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2012, 09:01:39 AM »

Quote from: Fordmender on March 22, 2012, 07:23:43 PM

Yep, seems to be the case. I too, contacted Rostra tech support just the other day, in an effort to solve a curious odd problem I was having on my unit and once they were informed the application was on a motorcycle...end of discussion. I had mentioned that they had responded to others questions from both forums in the past and this guy says "no, never". I then asked if I could just run something by him and the answer was simply "NO". His tactfulness and regard for customer service definitely left much to be desired. So for the moment, I think the only tech support is going to be each other regarding Rostra issues.

Good to know, if i have a problem such as this I guess I just tell them its on my car

Mal · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2012, 03:15:23 PM »

Quote from: B.D.F. on March 22, 2012, 02:36:35 PM

I am also surprised that Rostra is no longer helping motorcycle customers- their CC was never intended for use on motorcycles but they had always been very helpful with me even knowing it was a motorcycle installation. In fact, the tech. at Rostra seemed curious and interested. Perhaps something has happened with motorcycle customers to have Rostra create a new policy regarding non- auto use?

Their legal dept probably had a discussion with them...

xsv · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2012, 09:16:03 PM »

After reading Brian's post I started looking for something I was doing. If his theory is right that Rostra could be slow to reengage with too much slack, could I potentially be impatient and exacerbating the situation by pushing set again while the rostra was in the process of taking up the slack?

I wanted to ride today and so elected not to take off the plastic to check the cable slack. However, I wanted to see if I pushed set twice in a row if it would still engage the unit. My theory was that maybe that was causing the unit to go into some type of error mode. I put the bike on the center stand and engaged the cruise. I heard the high pitch of the actuator and the cruise engaged. I hit the brake and then reengaged the cc. No problem. I did this about 5 times and it worked flawlessly (well as flawlessly as it could on the center stand)

I went for a ride and engaged and reengaged the unit about 30 times. I tend to set the unit by getting up to speed, hitting set and then immediately release the throttle. The first time I do this it normally dumps a couple mph and then picks it back up to where I set it.

I decided to hold the throttle open set the speed and continue holding the throttle I waited about 5 seconds before removing my hand. I didn't get the normal little surge that I am used to when setting it as described one paragraph up.

Using this setting method I could not make the cc NOT work. Each time I set it, it worked, absolutely no need to reset it.

Halfway thru my ride I intentionally tried to get this thing not to work. I was hitting set multiple times, setting and immediately releasing the throttle, etc. Again, I could not get it NOT to work.

The only theory I have now is that before leaving the house I did use some lemon pledge on the plastic. That must have soaked thru the plastic and lubricated some non-existent part, causing everything to work.

I hate intermittent problems!

Could putting this up on the center stand and running it have done something? I don't see how it could have, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Mal · « **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2012, 08:57:32 AM »

Quote from: xsv on March 24, 2012, 09:16:03 PM

Using this setting method I could not make the cc NOT work. Each time I set it, it worked, absolutely no need to reset it.

I did some experimenting on my ride yesterday. If I used the brakes to disengage the unit, it never failed to re-engage. If I used the clutch to disengage, then re-engaging was intermittent...

xsv · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2012, 09:56:22 AM »

Quote from: Mal on March 25, 2012, 08:57:32 AM

I did some experimenting on my ride yesterday. If I used the brakes to disengage the unit, it never failed to re-engage. If I used the clutch to disengage, then re-engaging was intermittent...

....I tried to get it to fail with front brake, rear brake and clutch to no avail. I don't want it to fail, but sure wish I could figure out some "reason". Sounds like you are getting yours isolated down!

stlheadake · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2012, 05:55:26 PM »

Mine will work like a charm AS LONG AS YOU CANCEL IT WITH A BRAKE. The first time you grab the clutch to dis-engage I have to turn it off to re-engage it. Truth be told, the thing works fine with that one exception. I've learned to live with it. It IS a minor annoyance, but all in all I can deal with it.

I AM going to check the slack, I know how important that is. I just need the time to take off the tupperware. When I do, I have plenty tiny little projects to tackle!

DonB · « **Reply #19 on:** March 29, 2012, 07:26:47 PM »

I need to test mine some more but so far I think
if I cancel it with the clutch it will re-engage and all is fine but I if cancel it with the brake
I have to shut it off and then start from scratch

I rode a couple times yesterday but it was not a good place to check the cruise out much
rode the wing today and going to ride the Vstrom tomorrow, so maybe Saturday I can get it back out for more testing

News:

Author Topic: Rostra Cruise will not always reengage (Read 15022 times)