Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: tjhess74 on September 25, 2019, 08:08:26 PM
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Super short background...
in 2010, I had my KIPASS ignition replaced due to the sticking spring issue. No problems since, fast forward to Friday, August 16th, 2019. I was 100 miles out of town for a training course for work, and had ridden my 08 there. I only rode it home on Fridays and back again on Sundays for multiple weeks. She sat in the parking lot during the week.
Problem...
On the 16th, I loaded her up for the trip home, hit the stove key, and nothing. I thought it was the stuck spring again, so I gave her some good whacks. Then I got the following error on the screen, "SUBKEY ID ERROR".
Absolutely no response from the bike, whatsoever. I took the battery to a parts store. Tested good. Replaced the battery in the fob. No change. Put a new master 30 amp fuse in, same.
Fortunately, a friend of mine had some free time and a truck, and he made the trip and brought her to the local dealer for me. The dealer has been working on it since August 20th. They have 'tried everything' and can't figure out what is wrong. They called in a Kaw rep, who came and did his diagnosis. He left scratching his head, as well. So far, they have not said anything about replacing the ECU or whatever controls all that crap, but I fear it's coming. They only part ordered was a new ignition spring, which I thought wasn't a separate part, but maybe for the Kaw rep it is???
Do any of the masterminds on here have any idea what is going on? It's literally good one day and fried the next? Keys have been reprogrammed and the parts have supposedly removed and tested good. The other FOB, which was 100 miles away at the time of failure, also give that error code. So I'm confident the FOB's aren't the culprits.
The bike has 100k and has the wear to show daily use for 10 years. It's worth, at best, $2500. I don't believe it's economically feasible to spend more than $500 or so to get her running again. Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Fatal battery failure more likely. Fit a new one or try a jump start.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22530.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22530.0)
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When you were stranded, did you also try removing the battery from the active fob and using it in passive mode? Had/has the dealer? Not sure it would have made any difference, but curious.
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You'd think the Kaw rep would've done that - but perhaps he don't know that much about em. :goodpost:
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Definitely try the RFID (passive) method of authentication. If that works then it's almost certainly a failure on the radio side of the KiPass ECU.
Personally, I'd suspect the KiPass ECU regardless but if passive mode works then you can at least ride it without having to replace the KiPass ECU.
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sounds like none of the people at the dealer, nor rep, involved in the analysis are versed well on the KDS 3 protocol...
Subkey ID Error can be analyzed thru the KDS in the "realtime monitor program" within the KDS protocol.
It is either a lack of programming of the specific Imobilizer chip, along with the active fobs, when originally input; during the process of your switch module replacement (it stresses you must "re-register" all fobs, and also passive immobilizer functions) .. If they inadvertently exited the program improperly, without all confirmations, there will be issues (I'm looking right now in the KDS manual, as I know I saw that "SUBKEY ID ERROR" when I was searching for something else...) ..or a poor connection at some plug. KDS instructions repeatedly use the term about insuring integrity of plugged in connections, meaning unplug and replug in multiple times, each and every plug thru-out the system being inspected. I'll try to find it, and report back..
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SUBKEY ID ERROR will be displayed if an unregistered passive fob is held to 'the protrusion' and the stove knob is pressed. I just tried it as I happen to have an unregistered passive fob immobiliser key thingy. If it was the active fob that produced this error, fit a new battery to the bike and try again.
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... I thought it was the stuck spring again, so I gave her some good whacks. Then I got the following error on the screen, "SUBKEY ID ERROR".
Absolutely no response from the bike, whatsoever. I took the battery to a parts store. Tested good. Replaced the battery in the fob. No change. Put a new master 30 amp fuse in, same.
So, from this I gather the bike is not powering on? Were you originally using the active fob? Did you try the passive fob before you whacked it?
They called in a Kaw rep, who came and did his diagnosis.
If it doesn't turn on, what and how are they diagnosing?
Keys have been reprogrammed and the parts have supposedly removed and tested good. The other FOB, which was 100 miles away at the time of failure, also give that error code. So I'm confident the FOB's aren't the culprits.
Again, if it doesn't turn on, how are they "reprogramming keys"?
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :goodpost: ;D
One other point is that IF the stove knob return spring WAS stuck in the DOWN position, KIPASS would not be activated and therefore could not possibly give SUBKEY ID ERROR.
Hey MOB, we all thought (some hoped) you were outta here, going by what you said in the last KIPASS thread. :rotflmao: :chugbeer:
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sounds like none of the people at the dealer, nor rep, involved in the analysis are versed well on the KDS 3 protocol...
Subkey ID Error can be analyzed thru the KDS in the "realtime monitor program" within the KDS protocol.
If the ignition switch is failing to respond, KDS cannot connect. It will show a 'communication failed' popup box. I tried it just now while I was setting up a passive fob so it works on two bikes. Until the bike is turned on both KDS and KIPASS are useless.
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..............unless you are installing a new steering lock unit as per page 40 of KDS manual - well. that's how I read it. ;D But I don't have a new steering lock unit to play with.
But that's all irrelevant. :chugbeer:
Now, where is the OP?
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I read it that you still need an active fob to power the KIPASS ECU - only then can you register the new ignition switch.
Without a passive fob to turn on via the ignition ecu, or an active fob direct to KIPASS, you can't connect the KDS.
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Agreed, that's as I understand it too - an A or P fob is needed BUT KDS & KIPASS will connect without the ignition being turned on ONLY if you are installing a new steering lock unit.
We'll do some of this at Orange NSW :chugbeer: (at our annual GTR-AUS meet next month.)
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Sorry for the absence. Work has my head spinning right now.
The passive feature was tried on site. The FOBs were all given new batteries. A new battery was tried in the bike at the dealer. It will not respond at all, except for the SUBKEY ID ERROR on the screen. If I remember correctly, the guy said KDS was not able to connect. All involved are stumped. The 'whacks' on the stove key were a version the KIPASS rock/stuck spring bypass. Obviously, the stuck spring isn't the problem.
My only question is how did this problem just creep up all of the sudden? Worked fine for 11 years. Sat for 5 days, then failure.
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using an active fob in active mode (with it sitting on the seat) what does the dash display show, if anything?
In myunderstanding of the system, subkey ID error will show only if a passive fob has not been registered to thr bike or there is a low voltage problem. I read that the dealer tried a new battery to no avail, however I would try a jump start from a car just to be sure to be sure - nothing to lose by trying. Failing that I'd remove and replace the KIPASS ecu plug a few times in case of a dirty contact - it's the one under the seat with a single plug.
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Sorry for the absence. Work has my head spinning right now.
The passive feature was tried on site. The FOBs were all given new batteries. A new battery was tried in the bike at the dealer. It will not respond at all, except for the SUBKEY ID ERROR on the screen. If I remember correctly, the guy said KDS was not able to connect. All involved are stumped. The 'whacks' on the stove key were a version the KIPASS rock/stuck spring bypass. Obviously, the stuck spring isn't the problem.
My only question is how did this problem just creep up all of the sudden? Worked fine for 11 years. Sat for 5 days, then failure.
We're starting to hear about bad connections creeping in on the older bikes or if they are near salt water. Typically this occurs where multiple grounds meet up or rodent damage.
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Just throwing this out there since you mentioned it sat for a few days. Did you or the tech guys check under the seat/ECU or air filter area for mice chewed up wires? Although not likely since you've had the bike for a long time and sat for longer periods, curious if some wire short would cause this.
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We're starting to hear about bad connections creeping in on the older bikes or if they are near salt water. Typically this occurs where multiple grounds meet up or rodent damage.
I believe I eluded to the necessity, when searching, for unplugging and re-plugging in, every connector; a "couple of times", on every harness between the main ignition switch, and every ECU in the system, to insure they are "well connected", by the "scraping" action between the metallic parts of the connector plugs... this isn't the first time "mystery failure mode" has popped up in the last couple years, so just "cleaning battery connections" is only "part" of that procedure.. besides, it's free... doh...
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I believe I eluded to the necessity, when searching, for unplugging and re-plugging in, every connector; a "couple of times", on every harness between the main ignition switch, and every ECU in the system, to insure they are "well connected", by the "scraping" action between the metallic parts of the connector plugs...
That is pretty standard stuff in the electronics and computer field, too (replug every connector and card), due to age and oxidation. I will typically do it twice (remove, insert, remove insert).
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I tried jumping the bike when the problem started, as I thought it was a dead battery at first. There is no response or activation of the bike in any way except for the subkey id error on the screen. no fuel pump, no needle sweep, nothing. it's as if a stranger with no fob tried to activate the stove key...nothing, except I get a message on the screen.
the only thing that makes me skeptical about the connector issue is that there are some bikes slightly older than mine, with higher miles, and have sat in harsher salt air, and don't have my issue. My bike is garaged every night (except for being out of town) and i'm 20 miles from the ocean. I would think this issue would be more common if it were just that. but then again, i'm no expert.
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But do you get the error message when using the active fob or only when using the passive function?
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I tried jumping the bike when the problem started, as I thought it was a dead battery at first. There is no response or activation of the bike in any way except for the subkey id error on the screen. no fuel pump, no needle sweep, nothing. it's as if a stranger with no fob tried to activate the stove key...nothing, except I get a message on the screen.
the only thing that makes me skeptical about the connector issue is that there are some bikes slightly older than mine, with higher miles, and have sat in harsher salt air, and don't have my issue. My bike is garaged every night (except for being out of town) and i'm 20 miles from the ocean. I would think this issue would be more common if it were just that. but then again, i'm no expert.
TJ, I know your longevity with this group, and I'm really wanting to help you in all sincerity, I know this has to be a hair pulling event... I feel bad;
Ok, I have repeated it now 3 times, but as for an "answer" I'm getting "no, nothing was repeatedly unplugged and re-plugged in, multiple times, to insure the connectors are scraped clean of any oxides present".
I can't say much more to reinforce this suggestion. many of these wires are connections allowing very low voltage signals/circuits into play within the smart chips and such.. any resistance whatsoever can be invisibly restricting a 5v signal, to a lower below threshold that causes errors in communication.
as for the Subkey ID Error, yeah, maybe someone slapped their passive chip up against your keyswitch, and pressed the key down, to activate... this would give that error.. now, it would seem to require you to invoke the on-board diagnostics, and go thru, see the codes, and erase them.. maybe the code being stored is taking precedence over everything else currently, and once erased...and then the battery connections removed, let sit for 10 minutes, and reconnect...and that invoke/erase code procedure revisited; may not re-appear.. I dunno... try it, it's free... it just seems as if all the "simple steps" are being bypassed, and not done so far, in a complicated and tail chasing search.
If you are pressing the key down, and the screen is coming "alive" and giving that error, it sounds almost like someone "stuck" a passive chip against your ignition lock nub... and taped it on...
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freddy, the subkey id error code came up with the passive key and shortly thereafter when I tried the passive chip.
MOB, not to my knowledge, no one has replugged in all the connectors. I'll have to ask, but I would assume some connectors would be replugged in the process of removing/inspecting components. Your idea of someone putting a passive fob to my ignition is, in theory, possible, albeit exceedingly rare I would imagine. These bikes are rare enough, and the majority of owners a likeable and helpful bunch!
I'm still quite busy at work for the next couple of weeks, but I'll check in with the shop soon to see specifically what has been tried thus far. I did hear that when they replaced the ignition a while back, they apparently did quite the hack job getting the security bolts out. It sounds like the under side of the triple tree is chewed up. You just can't get good help these days...
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:popcorn:
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Ok gents, after 11 months of the bike being in the shop, she is finally back in my garage. I had turned in my license plate, cancelled the insurance, and prepared for selling her for parts. A friend of mine works at the dealership and spent his own time after work diagnosing and fixing it. Where I left off, the Kawi rep went through the bike, and his final diagnosis is that I had replacement keyfobs "from eBay" that set the computers off. For reference, my fobs are the ones that came with the bike when I bought it off the showroom floor in May of 08.
My friend determined that the computer that controls the KIPASS system wasn't getting 5 volts required to power on from where ever that signal comes from. It therefore couldn't communicate with the ECU. He tried to supply the 5 volts from another source, and that made that computer live, but it still wouldn't communicate. They had that computer from another wrecked bike and plugged it in with a programmed fob. No dice, same subkey id errors.
So, he found an auction on eBay that had all of the c14 computers, KIPASS ignition, fobs and all, for just south of $800. He replaced all of the bike's computers, reprogrammed the fobs, and voila! She now runs!
Could more diagnosing been done? Could something have been overlooked? Possibly. But with as much time as he put into the bike, it wasn't going to be worth much more. I paid for the parts, the shop fees, and him for his personal time.
In closing, I cannot give you an exact explanation of what was wrong, because we will never know. The important part is the bike is now back on the road (metaphorically, since there's no insurance) and should last awhile. The downside is I had to give up my flashed Steve's ECU.
As usual, thank you to all of those that offered their input and technical knowledge in helping to sort this one out. I'm still busy at work and not on here nearly as often, but my fondness for you is still there!
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Thanks for report back tj. :thumbs: It would seem that the KIPASS ECU died - that's new.
The bike's original FI ECU with Steve's flash can be registered to the 'new' KIPASS ECU by using KDS.