Author Topic: Issues bleeding the clutch  (Read 19283 times)

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2018, 03:10:36 pm »
Unfortunately, the PDF of the early service manual updates is a locked/secured file, which I cannot "print to file" to extract the specific pages showing the valving and control features schematically of the system, during various "event" or "enabled" activation of the systems parameters.. I wish I could pull those pages, it would make explaining much easier, but I can't..
soooo... with that said, I'll explain that "key on / key off" during a bleeding process means nothing to the system, and has zero assistance in getting any better bleed of the pump.
As this is all controlled by the ABS ECU, which is itself contained in the pump housing assembly, nothing is activated unless input sensory signals regarding wheel speed differences are activated, so at rest, the bike acts as if it has normal "conventional" brakes... just a direct path from the master cylinder, to the wheel caliper, thru the open solenoid in the pump housing... fluid flow is benignly free in both directions, and the circuit to and from the "pumping" section is shut off by a second solenoid valve. The amount of fluid actually contained in the pump, and passages to and from it between the closed valve, is pretty minuscule, like a couple spoon fulls... and I'd wager about 1/2 oz, to 3/4 oz at most.

Truthfully, I have a "failed" ABS pump unit that was sent to me by someone that had a pump failure, which I have not disassembled completely yet to find root cause for the failure, but rest assured the unit I have leads to my conclusions on how much fluid is "self contained" in it.

so as a result, I can say bleeding the front, or rear system, in a normal manner, is all that you can do, and the fluids that are flushed comprise pretty much 98% of the systems contents...
As others have already noted, I agree that about 2 to 3 bottles/pints accomplishes the job as well as could be done when combining brake and clutch flushing.

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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2018, 07:08:41 am »
(Even though this query was addressed to Brian, I hope it was opened to all when Brian said he didn't have an ABS bike?)

While it is an interesting thought, one would think that Mama Kaw would have mentioned it in the service manual. It's not in either section of mine. Additionally the owners manual also mentions that the abs system doesn't function below approx. 3.1 mph so unless you bleed brakes above that speed...?

Still it's an interesting thought, and one of you should try it and report back....until then I'm going to put it in the same storage section as that rumor about calibrating the throttle position sensor by....oh nevermind.   ;)

Marty, thats funny.  Imagine bleeding the brakes only to find out you only held 3mph, and not the 3.1 like you were supposed to. All that wasted effort in balancing, and gymnastics...

I think you guys are right and that key idea probably does not matter.  I have the non abs ninja 1000, and this concours 14 abs. When I flush the brake fluid, I try to use different brands.  Sometimes the fluid color is slightly different and it makes  it easier to see if the job is completed. For example, the galfer brand fluid is a sort-of yellow color.

The abs bike takes much longer to flush and needs more fluid to complete the job.

The Auto Stores have all kinds of fluid, anymore.  Several eluded to "long life" or "lasts twice as long". I avoided these, just because they sounded different, but I wonder if there could be anything to this idea of longer lasting fluid? Pentosin brand was one of them.

Then again, abs pump...1200.00.....Im not sure I want to be the one who finds out it was a bad idea.


Offline Cold Streak

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2018, 07:33:38 am »
It makes you wonder what makes it  "last twice as long" when for us mere mortals the reason for changing the fluid is to get rid of the moisture contamination.  Most of us don't use the brakes hard enough to get the fluid temperature high enough to cause it to degrade in that manner.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2018, 04:52:22 pm »
THE Pentosin brand dot4 products are pretty much euro industry standard especially in new vehicles which utilize the Low Viscosity grade, and have exotic traction control technology which is based on brake reactions..
Nothing wrong with the product at all, I'm sure it's higher priced, but you should reap from the expense put out...
On these bikes however, when doing regular fluid replacements at set intervals, completely not needed, as the total quantity of fluid required is less than a liter total, to completely flush the system 3 times over.  I've always used Prestone B/F, in the correct grades, and never had issue...
ymmv ;)

 now I'll mention something that isn't really apparent anymore, as today's people aren't old enough to remember that prior to the 80's, pretty much all brake fluid you bought, came in a METAL can... now, I will say that storing a half container, whether it was metal, or plastic, and expecting it to be fine a year later, is not wise... but sealed cans of brake fluid manufactured during the 60's and 70's, that I have opened, metal cans... showed no degradation of product.. plastic bottles are a product of our "newer" need for disposal, and frankly a plastic bottle, half filled, will not be viable once opened, resealed, and set on a shelf for a year, or even more. Plastic bottles breath pretty freely...
soooo, I save my "half bottles" for the initial purge when doing a complete flush, I actually will pour them all together as I use a "half bottle" to fill a bottle fully before setting it on a shelf. Then, when I need to do a full flush, use all the older fluid, which may be slightly degraded, which is ok to me, and pump it thru prior to finalizing the service with completely fresh and new fluid...

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Offline maxtog

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2018, 09:34:29 pm »
and frankly a plastic bottle, half filled, will not be viable once opened, resealed, and set on a shelf for a year, or even more. Plastic bottles breath pretty freely...

What about factory-sealed plastic bottles that have never been opened and have sat on the shelf for years?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2018, 06:21:54 am »
Interesting. Personally, I believe that only the absorption of moisture damages brake fluid, and the fluid itself turns dark due to the infusion of oxygen (from the air or more likely, water). This is the 'indicator' of old brake fluid- it is dark, and the darker, the more contaminated it is with water and or, oxygen. So that is what I use as a marker of B.F.'s quality, how dark it is. I have had open bottles of brake fluid, both synthetic and non- synthetic, sitting on the shelf for years without any darkening of the fluid and I continue to use the stuff as needed.

I know and acknowledge that all instructions for using brake fluid always say to use fluid from a 'fresh' container but so far, I have not seen any reason to avoid the older stuff. ??

Brian


<snip>

 now I'll mention something that isn't really apparent anymore, as today's people aren't old enough to remember that prior to the 80's, pretty much all brake fluid you bought, came in a METAL can... now, I will say that storing a half container, whether it was metal, or plastic, and expecting it to be fine a year later, is not wise... but sealed cans of brake fluid manufactured during the 60's and 70's, that I have opened, metal cans... showed no degradation of product.. plastic bottles are a product of our "newer" need for disposal, and frankly a plastic bottle, half filled, will not be viable once opened, resealed, and set on a shelf for a year, or even more. Plastic bottles breath pretty freely...
soooo, I save my "half bottles" for the initial purge when doing a complete flush, I actually will pour them all together as I use a "half bottle" to fill a bottle fully before setting it on a shelf. Then, when I need to do a full flush, use all the older fluid, which may be slightly degraded, which is ok to me, and pump it thru prior to finalizing the service with completely fresh and new fluid...
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2018, 06:16:54 pm »
As an answer to the unopened sealed bottle thing, kinda depends on how thick, and what polymer plastic was used in the container, and seal... most are made from HDPE High Density Polyethylene, and can cope with quite a bit of resistance to air intrusion, basically because it was completely filled, with very little airspace, and usually stored at a constant temperature... but once opened, and half is used, the remaining "void" in that bottle contains air, and very likely moisture.

a lot of my "opinions" on air and moisture come from my engineering experience when I was responsible for designing "packaging" material for use in "flat pack" Lithium Ion battery production. The chemicals, and composites used to create prismatic cells, are extremely hygroscopic, and as of such, the cathode/anode lamination's once the plasticisers are extracted, are dried, and all "cell assembly" was done in an inert atmosphere (i.e. a helium filled gloved dry box) which was monitored, and ingress and egress chambers were evacuated during loading process. Moisture was virtually non existent, and oxygen also.

The materials I developed for the "soft" package of the cells as designed consisted of multiple layers of non permeable aluminum foil, and proprietary plastic films, which were conducive to laminating with the foil layers, and resultant "heat sealing", I was a great challenge, and I expended a lot of time to perfect the process' (yeah, I have patents on some stuff... but I'm not rich from it... dangit..)

I know it's a bit anal with regards to brake fluid, but I did become very aware of gas and moisture permeability of simple common plastics.

so, In the end, Like I noted, I flush with the slightly aged fluids, and toss them, and my final fill is always fresh stuff... it's cheap, why not.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2018, 06:58:50 pm »
Yeah, part of my background is with plastic film..... like the seven layers in a potato chip (et al.) bag, one of which is an oxygen barrier. But I do not let that slow me down and use "old" brake fluid if it is clear, and I have never had any darken in the container. And my method is even cheaper, so why not squared?

:-)

Brian

As an answer to the unopened sealed bottle thing, kinda depends on how thick, and what polymer plastic was used in the container, and seal... most are made from HDPE High Density Polyethylene, and can cope with quite a bit of resistance to air intrusion, basically because it was completely filled, with very little airspace, and usually stored at a constant temperature... but once opened, and half is used, the remaining "void" in that bottle contains air, and very likely moisture.

a lot of my "opinions" on air and moisture come from my engineering experience when I was responsible for designing "packaging" material for use in "flat pack" Lithium Ion battery production. The chemicals, and composites used to create prismatic cells, are extremely hygroscopic, and as of such, the cathode/anode lamination's once the plasticisers are extracted, are dried, and all "cell assembly" was done in an inert atmosphere (i.e. a helium filled gloved dry box) which was monitored, and ingress and egress chambers were evacuated during loading process. Moisture was virtually non existent, and oxygen also.

The materials I developed for the "soft" package of the cells as designed consisted of multiple layers of non permeable aluminum foil, and proprietary plastic films, which were conducive to laminating with the foil layers, and resultant "heat sealing", I was a great challenge, and I expended a lot of time to perfect the process' (yeah, I have patents on some stuff... but I'm not rich from it... dangit..)

I know it's a bit anal with regards to brake fluid, but I did become very aware of gas and moisture permeability of simple common plastics.

so, In the end, Like I noted, I flush with the slightly aged fluids, and toss them, and my final fill is always fresh stuff... it's cheap, why not.
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2018, 07:30:53 am »
MOB, I saw something interesting at a bottled water plant we work with.

I was watching the fill production line, Id guess it was called.  They have the thin, clear bottles and the fresh, pure, filtered water is placed into them.

This leaves an air space that about 1 inch front the bottom of its lid.   

Just before the lid gets screwed on, they place a drop of liquid nitrogen inside the bottle. The nitrogen is flashing off, the lid is screwed on.  Doing so helps flush out all the air, and it pressurizes the bottle, just  a little, and makes the bottle stronger. This allows them to stack the finished product.

I wondered if maybe they do a similar thing with other fluids we buy?   Anyway, I wished you were there so you could fully explain what was going on.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2018, 04:57:20 pm »
MOB, I saw something interesting at a bottled water plant we work with.

I was watching the fill production line, Id guess it was called.  They have the thin, clear bottles and the fresh, pure, filtered water is placed into them.

This leaves an air space that about 1 inch front the bottom of its lid.   

Just before the lid gets screwed on, they place a drop of liquid nitrogen inside the bottle. The nitrogen is flashing off, the lid is screwed on.  Doing so helps flush out all the air, and it pressurizes the bottle, just  a little, and makes the bottle stronger. This allows them to stack the finished product.

I wondered if maybe they do a similar thing with other fluids we buy?   Anyway, I wished you were there so you could fully explain what was going on.


I'm very aware of that process, and have studied it back in the mid 90's when I came into widespread use, It works great on non carbonated beverages, and food products; I saw it in use in the medical packaging industry a lot, where sterility had to be maintained during the vacuum sealing of packages containing drugs, and other medical implements, such as high end dressings, plastics, chemical compositions and such, that could not be subjected to high temp autoclave sterilization. Many other forms were used in packaging such as "gas tunnel" lines, which were gas flooded long conveyor tunnels, which contained inert gas, but as cost due to quantity of gas expended made it a bit prohibitive for common usage, things like freeze dried foods, and MRE's were the common usage for gas only purging... The added benefit of the process you saw, is the fact that pressurization strengthens the plastic bottles as you noted, and increasingly thinner bottles can be utilized, created less waste impact on the environment, and reduced cost for the bottlers.
As far as use on other products, like brake fluid, I think they do an Argon "puff/purge", as it's more conducive and not an issue like food products purity.

Now, this really is the epitome of storing your stash..... 8) 8) 8) ;D

http://www.vacuumbarrier.com/articles/application-study-cannabis.html

yes, It's come to that level...

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2018, 05:42:58 pm »
Great....maybe it'll keep that **** from stinking up the house.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Issues bleeding the clutch
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2018, 06:49:15 pm »
Usually, when a 'gas filler' that will not oxidize anything is needed, nitrogen is used because it is many times less expensive than argon. Argon is a true inert gas but almost all organic products only react substantially with oxygen so nitrogen, while not inert, is non- reactive with almost all (and I think all) organic products. Nitrogen is always used if and when a non- evaporative absorbing gas is needed, such as purging of fuel containers to keep the oxygen AND the water out of it.

Airline aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen because it contains no oxygen, and it contains no moisture. Large aircraft tires are pressurized to high enough levels to become explosive at surprisingly low temperatures if an oxygen rich atmosphere (read: the atmosphere   ;D ) so nitrogen is used because it will not support combustion of the tires. And of course, there is no possibility of getting too much moisture in nitrogen as there is in air; an aircraft tire at -60F would turn any collected moisture into a block of ice while would not help the tire balance properly.

Brian

I'm very aware of that process, and have studied it back in the mid 90's when I came into widespread use, It works great on non carbonated beverages, and food products; I saw it in use in the medical packaging industry a lot, where sterility had to be maintained during the vacuum sealing of packages containing drugs, and other medical implements, such as high end dressings, plastics, chemical compositions and such, that could not be subjected to high temp autoclave sterilization. Many other forms were used in packaging such as "gas tunnel" lines, which were gas flooded long conveyor tunnels, which contained inert gas, but as cost due to quantity of gas expended made it a bit prohibitive for common usage, things like freeze dried foods, and MRE's were the common usage for gas only purging... The added benefit of the process you saw, is the fact that pressurization strengthens the plastic bottles as you noted, and increasingly thinner bottles can be utilized, created less waste impact on the environment, and reduced cost for the bottlers.
As far as use on other products, like brake fluid, I think they do an Argon "puff/purge", as it's more conducive and not an issue like food products purity.

Now, this really is the epitome of storing your stash..... 8) 8) 8) ;D

http://www.vacuumbarrier.com/articles/application-study-cannabis.html

yes, It's come to that level...
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com