Author Topic: Ebola victim in the U.S.  (Read 26609 times)

Offline Strawboss

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Ebola victim in the U.S.
« on: August 02, 2014, 07:48:45 PM »
I think this is a terrible idea. All the safeguards in the world are not going to contain this virus. Being a paramedic I know about transfer of disease, "its difficult for the common person to get it as its spread by direct contact of urine, feces, or blood, so people that are health care workers and first responders are most at risk". That's the official line to subdue panic. That line covers just about every single virus on earth. Bad idea. And while we're at it, why not post the address and security codes and the guard schedule and room number where the victim who has contracted the most deadly virus known to man that has no vaccine or cure. Its so secure we're told, like tesla's computers right? Bad idea. It will come to haunt us in the future.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 08:43:08 PM »
I agree about the virus- the most lethal disease known with some strains showing a 90% fatality rate.

As to bringing it to the US, that is a 'mixed bag' IMO. The virus is not easily transmitted and we (the US ) certainly does have the capacity to handle the virus. Besides that, the CDC already has it in at least two places in the US so it is here and being 'tinkered' with before that physician was brought here. On the other side, it does have that incredibly high lethality rate and there is no treatment for it (other than for gross symptoms like dehydration but the course of the disease itself cannot be altered by man). And of course the Russians have had it 'get away' a couple of times in scientific accidents..... which I would like to think would be far less likely to happen here.

As far as those two people being brought to the US, they are Americans and contracted the disease through the proper and legitimate execution of their profession, which is always a possibility. I understand you concern and believe it has merit but I think bringing home Americans for the best treatment possible after contracting a disease or condition while giving humanitarian aid was / is the most correct thing to do. Not without risk of course, just the most just method I can think of given the circumstances.

All of this assumes that it is in fact NOT an airborne disease. There is some doubt about the method of transmission, especially of one particular strain but only because the method of infection was never known with certainty. That leaves airborne transmission as a possibility. Still, even that can be contained with reasonable certainty given proper conditions and equipment.

Brian

I think this is a terrible idea. All the safeguards in the world are not going to contain this virus. Being a paramedic I know about transfer of disease, "its difficult for the common person to get it as its spread by direct contact of urine, feces, or blood, so people that are health care workers and first responders are most at risk". That's the official line to subdue panic. That line covers just about every single virus on earth. Bad idea. And while we're at it, why not post the address and security codes and the guard schedule and room number where the victim who has contracted the most deadly virus known to man that has no vaccine or cure. Its so secure we're told, like tesla's computers right? Bad idea. It will come to haunt us in the future.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2014, 04:47:24 AM »
The whole thing makes me nervous.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2014, 06:52:35 AM »
Squeeze your fob a little tighter Jim and think good thoughts....

Hemoragic fever ain't never been exposed to KiPass, and I think I know which one will win (all hail KiPass).

Brian

The whole thing makes me nervous.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 07:02:45 AM »
Who had the final decision to bring the virus to this country?

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 07:27:24 AM »
Why don't you look that up and let us know... ;)   I'm thinking the CDC had a big role in it.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 12:26:30 PM »
From what I've read, this was a nongovernmental decision. Nobody ask permission to bring a new infectious disease into this country. Since nobody asked there was nobody to say no. A truly  :censored: up way to do things but par for the course these days.   

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 03:01:32 PM »
I guess that the nuclear weapons are being readied just in case...
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Offline gPink

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 04:01:16 PM »
I guess that the nuclear weapons are being readied just in case...
Well, it is Atlanta after all....

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 04:56:01 PM »
I do not believe anyone has to be asked before bringing virtually anything into the country. I believe the way the Constitution (the by- laws of the US as far as I know) assume everything / everyone / every entity entry into the US unless specifically prohibited. Sort of like free speech; you can say anything you want, without asking anyone permission, unless the thing you want to say has been specifically addressed and made illegal to say (such as yelling fire in a public place but that too is only illegal if there IS NOT A FIRE at that time).

If someone must be asked before a virus could be brought into the country, no one with the latest strain of influenza ('the flu') could be transported into the US, which is so common as to be a non- issue. And that begs the following questions: who is it that should be asked? Who is it that has any authority to refuse entry without a specific statue preventing said behavior?

Brian

Who had the final decision to bring the virus to this country?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 04:59:22 PM »
Are you suggesting that we all be tested for viruses upon trying to gain entry into the US, and then have a decision on whether we can proceed into the US or not based on some person (or some group- perhaps a triumvirate, they always work out well, historically speaking) opinion / whim?

I am an American, born and bred, and I think I  have a fair understanding of our laws as well as the intent of those laws. To the best of my knowledge, no one (person, agency or entity) can base the ability of a US citizen to enter the US based on whim.

Brian

From what I've read, this was a nongovernmental decision. Nobody ask permission to bring a new infectious disease into this country. Since nobody asked there was nobody to say no. A truly  :censored: up way to do things but par for the course these days.
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Offline gPink

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2014, 06:17:44 PM »
All that is no doubt the correct position to take but I think will stick to my god given right to hold a narrow minded opinion on this.
I also have the same opinion of people who think it's alright to hike in hills of Iraq and Iran, those who decide to be a tourist in North Korea and others who make life altering decisions that don't turn out well.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2014, 06:24:15 PM »
Are you suggesting that we all be tested for viruses upon trying to gain entry into the US, and then have a decision on whether we can proceed into the US or not based on some person (or some group- perhaps a triumvirate, they always work out well, historically speaking) opinion / whim?

I am an American, born and bred, and I think I  have a fair understanding of our laws as well as the intent of those laws. To the best of my knowledge, no one (person, agency or entity) can base the ability of a US citizen to enter the US based on whim.

Brian

There doesn't have to be a test for this.  They already have been confirmed as having the virus.  This is a lethal disease.  What if the plane crashes on US soil?  What if the helicopter or vehicle taking them to the hospital has an accident?  Can you imagine the consequences of this disease getting loose here?  Maybe I've seen too many movies with viruses getting loose.  I just think it's a very bad idea when there is no cure, to bring them over here.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2014, 06:43:11 PM »
Yes, I can imagine- it is not very transmissible. The general disease family has a very high lethality rate but an extremely low infection rate.

All of that is really quite irrelevant as the Constitution does not recognize 'dangerous' as a condition of entry into the country as far as I know. Anyone is free to like / dislike the idea but we are a nation of laws and principle (well, mostly) and the two questions remain: 1) what law(s) are in place to regulate the entrance to the country of a citizen based on health and or diseases carried. And 2) if there are any such laws or regulations (and I do not believe there are), who or what entity is it that makes the decision (who to allow entry into the US based on health) and what authority does he / she or they act under?

I understand what you guys are saying, and it is not that I do not agree or disagree with you: I simply do not believe it is a government function to regulate US soil entry for citizens based on health, diseases carried or any other physical condition. How about ugly? Should we let ugly Americans re- enter the country? Sure that sounds like a joke but it is not: the basis is the same. Sure the person with a virus may pose a hazard but as far as I know, posing a potential hazard IS NOT illegal.

I believe trying to regulate the condition of the US citizens that may enter the country is akin to censorship: should we not have some person or agency somewhere deeming what reading material may be harmful for us and prohibit its distribution? The Constitution and the US Supreme Court have answered that question and the answer is no. I personally do not want anyone screening what I may read, see, hear, smell, touch or anything else. I personally would not accept anyone in my country telling any other citizen that he / she COULD NOT re- enter the US because he / she may pose a health threat. IMO it is not a fine line either, it is the very premise and base of our entire way of life.

Personally I think there are people who should not be driving as they pose an unacceptable risk to ME and people I personally know but without cause, those people cannot be stopped from doing something because I (or anyone else outside a statue and previous cause, as in a previous DUI or similar) do not have the ability to restrict another person's behavior based on any level of 'potential damage'.

Free speech is never a problem unless we disagree with what the speaker is saying and then it is a true test of the system.

Brian

There doesn't have to be a test for this.  They already have been confirmed as having the virus.  This is a lethal disease.  What if the plane crashes on US soil?  What if the helicopter or vehicle taking them to the hospital has an accident?  Can you imagine the consequences of this disease getting loose here?  Maybe I've seen too many movies with viruses getting loose.  I just think it's a very bad idea when there is no cure, to bring them over here.
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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2014, 07:51:10 PM »
...And 2) if there are any such laws or regulations (and I do not believe there are), who or what entity is it that makes the decision (who to allow entry into the US based on health) and what authority does he / she or they act under?


This ctl-V from http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

"The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)."

And that is the law today, whether we like it or not.

If this doesn't apply here, I don't know what does.  The CDC authorized their entry. The patient(s) are being admitted into a CDC-sponsored quarantine facility. It is a hazard that will hopefully be successfully managed, but if something goes wrong, the department of heath and Human Services will have to answer some tough questions, as well as the executive power to which they report.

I hope no one catches ebola, and everyone survives, and the CDC comes up with a vaccine using these patients as Petry dishes. The possibility of a vaccine is the one thing that justifies taking the risk because of the lives it would save.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2014, 08:23:59 PM »
Excellent- a statue that certainly does seem to apply to this situation. Thanks for posting that; I appreciate the opportunity to learn something and better understand a situation like this.

Now as I read that, the 'day to day' operation is given to the CDC. Given this particular quote "Tom Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which is based in Atlanta right near Emory, told Fox News on Sunday that Dr. Brantly "appears to be improving, and that's encouraging." ", it would appear that the CDC is well aware of this person's re- entry into the US. So I believe that answers all the questions, at least as I understand them: Who has the authority to regulate a person(s) entry into and travel through (through states)? The CDC effectively, and that agency has rendered an answer in this case.

Just as an aside, the groups responsible for those two people's transportation and treatment in the US are the charities that they worked for in Liberia, treating Ebola victims in the recent outbreak there (two separate charities). Apparently those agencies thought it in the best interests of both patients that they be returned to the US for the best treatment possible.

Not that it matters of course but I personally think it was a 'good call' and am happy to have them back in the US. Certainly there is risk but let's be reasonable here- these are not zombies spreading their..... zombiism (or is that zombiness?) around like on a bad TV show. For whatever it is worth, all of the hemmoragic fevers live in a very narrow band of latitude in Africa and are extremely rare diseases under any circumstances; with proper equipment and care, there is no reason to expect that these cases cannot be readily contained in medical facilities in a modern, first- world nation. It is not reasonable IMO to expect an Ebola virus outbreak in Atlanta under any circumstances but especially when the carrier patients were received with it known they were infected with this virus. In other words, it is not like these two people got off a plane at Hartsfield airport and walked to another terminal after getting a coffee....

Brian

This ctl-V from http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

"The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)."

And that is the law today, whether we like it or not.

If this doesn't apply here, I don't know what does.  The CDC authorized their entry. The patient(s) are being admitted into a CDC-sponsored quarantine facility. It is a hazard that will hopefully be successfully managed, but if something goes wrong, the department of heath and Human Services will have to answer some tough questions, as well as the executive power to which they report.

I hope no one catches ebola, and everyone survives, and the CDC comes up with a vaccine using these patients as Petry dishes. The possibility of a vaccine is the one thing that justifies taking the risk because of the lives it would save.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline gPink

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2014, 06:26:55 AM »
The CDC...OK, I feel much better knowing a responsible government agency has everything under control. Move along. Nothing to see here.

 Two Centers for Disease Control and Prevention labs shut down after anthrax scare amid fears workers were accidentally exposed to live virus
Major safety crackdown at nation’s highest-level biosecurity labs in Atlanta
Follows numerous problems including scares with anthrax and deadly bird flu
Comes days after the discovery of six forgotten vials of smallpox virus in a laboratory building at the National Institutes of Health campus in Bethesda, Maryland
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

PUBLISHED: 12:44 EST, 11 July 2014 | UPDATED: 21:31 EST, 11 July 2014

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2014, 06:58:36 AM »
I didn't need to see this.  I'm going back outside and sticking my head back in the sand.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2014, 07:37:07 AM »
I didn't need to see this.  I'm going back outside and sticking my head back in the sand.

+1 :-\

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Ebola victim in the U.S.
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2014, 09:48:54 AM »
Relax Gary, put a fresh battery in your fob and you'll feel better by morning. :-)  Besides, the anthrax is gonna' get ya' long before the Ebola so there you go.

 ;D

Brian

The CDC...OK, I feel much better knowing a responsible government agency has everything under control. Move along. Nothing to see here.

 Two Centers for Disease Control and Prevention labs shut down after anthrax scare amid fears workers were accidentally exposed to live virus
Major safety crackdown at nation’s highest-level biosecurity labs in Atlanta
Follows numerous problems including scares with anthrax and deadly bird flu
Comes days after the discovery of six forgotten vials of smallpox virus in a laboratory building at the National Institutes of Health campus in Bethesda, Maryland
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

PUBLISHED: 12:44 EST, 11 July 2014 | UPDATED: 21:31 EST, 11 July 2014
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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