Rostra Cruise - asking the experts

[Ccapse]

Apologies in advance but I found my way to your forum whilst researching my install and now I have a problem was hoping the obvious vast experience within this site might be able to help me? Ive searched extensively but cant find an answer so I was wondering if you guys have ever encountered anything like the following?
Ive installed a 250-1123, using a CCS100 keypad, on a Hayabusa gen2 setup for touring (pause while howls of derision die down 😉).
It all works perfectly except for one strange trait.
If the unit is turned off, and I apply the rear brake, then when I release the rear brake, the unit turns on - intermittently. My install uses the relay-brake-light option as The gen2 has a LED brake light.
I dont have the issue when I apply the front brake.
The red wire and the activation for the brake light relay are connectd across the rear brake light switch, but front brake switch is in parallel to the rear so it seems odd I only have issue with rear brake.
I Originally had the issue constantly but I swapped to a different relay and now the problem is intermittent.
Both the grounds that go to the relay and the overall ground for the Cruise actuator go to the same bolt on the subframe.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what may be causing this annoying trait? Maybe I need a diode or capacitor on the relay somewhere (really guessing now)? 
I am aware of another install that had a similar issue with an ungrounded brake light modulator installed but my brake light is stock.
Any incites would be much appreciated.
Cheers Chris

[B.D.F.]

That really is an unusual problem.

Because both brake lights (both or either) cause the relay to close, it should really not be possible for only one brake light to cause any odd behavior on the 'other' side of the relay; that is actually what relays do, they isolate one circuit from the other, so the two brake circuits should not be able to have different results on the other, or power side, of the relay.

So, the only thing I can think of, especially since you mention this changed after you changed the relay for another one, is that the relay is not closing and staying closed, as it should, but instead rapidly opening and closing. This is called 'bouncing' in the electronic community and resembles 'chattering' or buzzing as the relay rapidly opens and closes. The usual cause of this is insufficient current going through the relay's coil to keep it closed, and that is caused by (almost always) a bad connection on the power side of the relay.

I would suggest not using a frame as a grounding point but instead tap into the actual ground circuit on the bike. There will be a lot of wires used for ground all over the bike, find out what color they are (they will all be that same color), and tap into one of those lines for the ground connection of the relay and the control pad but NOT the ground from the Rostra's actuator. Even better would be to run a wire of at least 16 gauge directly from the negative terminal of the battery and use it for all of the ground connections of all circuits installed for the Rostra, including that relay.

If that fails, though I really think that is the problem, then I would check the rear brake light circuit to see if it is chattering. This can be tough but using an analog voltage meter may show the needle jittering slightly if checking the voltage on the brake circuit when it is on though decent quality, taut- band analog voltage meters are somewhat expensive. Best is an oscilloscope but most people do not have those lying around.

Still, I suspect nothing but a ground problem, especially because you are using a frame grounding point and an actual ground line will fix your problem I think. Besides that, it is a good idea to do it that way anyway so it would not be a waste of time in my opinion anyway.

Best of luck with that.

Brian

Apologies in advance but I found my way to your forum whilst researching my install and now I have a problem was hoping the obvious vast experience within this site might be able to help me? Ive searched extensively but cant find an answer so I was wondering if you guys have ever encountered anything like the following?
Ive installed a 250-1123, using a CCS100 keypad, on a Hayabusa gen2 setup for touring (pause while howls of derision die down 😉).
It all works perfectly except for one strange trait.
If the unit is turned off, and I apply the rear brake, then when I release the rear brake, the unit turns on - intermittently. My install uses the relay-brake-light option as The gen2 has a LED brake light.
I dont have the issue when I apply the front brake.
The red wire and the activation for the brake light relay are connectd across the rear brake light switch, but front brake switch is in parallel to the rear so it seems odd I only have issue with rear brake.
I Originally had the issue constantly but I swapped to a different relay and now the problem is intermittent.
Both the grounds that go to the relay and the overall ground for the Cruise actuator go to the same bolt on the subframe.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what may be causing this annoying trait? Maybe I need a diode or capacitor on the relay somewhere (really guessing now)? 
I am aware of another install that had a similar issue with an ungrounded brake light modulator installed but my brake light is stock.
Any incites would be much appreciated.
Cheers Chris

[just gone]

Ive installed a 250-1123, using a CCS100 keypad, on a Hayabusa gen2 setup for touring (pause while howls of derision die down 😉).

No howling here, yeah I might be howling in pain if I had to do it (ole fart) but that is not that uncommon really. If you fall in love with a bike, the next thing you know is you want to take a trip on it. 

I'd go with what Brian says above, even if it's not the problem it is always good advice to have good grounding. I'm so not familiar with the Hayabusa so forgive my question...Is the Tail light LED or tungsten?
IIRC the only reason we need a relay on our C14s is because we have an LED tail light...I think?

[Ccapse]

Brian, thanks for the suggestion, I will give it a try but Im a bit sceptical. The issue occurs when I release the brake which corresponds to the relay in turn releasing NOT energising. Will be a week or so before I can try your suggestion as Im off on an Endurance ride this weekend which will be my first opportunity to use the Rostra as intended. I will just put up wth it being 'on' all the time. i will report back. Cheers Chris.

[mikeyw64]

I'd be less inclined to say it's a bad earth from the install  given the front brake switch doesn't induce the same symptoms and it's using the same earth.


IMHO it's more likely to be the rear brake switch itself, possibly its got some crud in it

That really is an unusual problem.

Because both brake lights (both or either) cause the relay to close, it should really not be possible for only one brake light to cause any odd behavior on the 'other' side of the relay; that is actually what relays do, they isolate one circuit from the other, so the two brake circuits should not be able to have different results on the other, or power side, of the relay.

So, the only thing I can think of, especially since you mention this changed after you changed the relay for another one, is that the relay is not closing and staying closed, as it should, but instead rapidly opening and closing. This is called 'bouncing' in the electronic community and resembles 'chattering' or buzzing as the relay rapidly opens and closes. The usual cause of this is insufficient current going through the relay's coil to keep it closed, and that is caused by (almost always) a bad connection on the power side of the relay.

I would suggest not using a frame as a grounding point but instead tap into the actual ground circuit on the bike. There will be a lot of wires used for ground all over the bike, find out what color they are (they will all be that same color), and tap into one of those lines for the ground connection of the relay and the control pad but NOT the ground from the Rostra's actuator. Even better would be to run a wire of at least 16 gauge directly from the negative terminal of the battery and use it for all of the ground connections of all circuits installed for the Rostra, including that relay.

If that fails, though I really think that is the problem, then I would check the rear brake light circuit to see if it is chattering. This can be tough but using an analog voltage meter may show the needle jittering slightly if checking the voltage on the brake circuit when it is on though decent quality, taut- band analog voltage meters are somewhat expensive. Best is an oscilloscope but most people do not have those lying around.

Still, I suspect nothing but a ground problem, especially because you are using a frame grounding point and an actual ground line will fix your problem I think. Besides that, it is a good idea to do it that way anyway so it would not be a waste of time in my opinion anyway.

Best of luck with that.

Brian

[MAN OF BLUES]

I'm gonna have to reflect into the Busa sytems wiring, and actuation means compared to the C14 system, I'm thinking there are differences in the actual "path", and this is why things actuate when they should disconnect, and vice versa..

may take me a day.. 

[B.D.F.]

Hey, I am skeptical also. :-)  What you have there is a truly odd problem.

BTW- I forgot to ask earlier but the front brake does disengage the Rostra, does it not? In  other words, you have actually used the system to make sure the front brake actually disengages the cruise control while in use, correct?

I really cannot imagine any logical situation where having both brakes being off allows the C.C. to be set, turning on the front brake light disengages the C.C. as it should, but turning OFF the back brake light powers the C.C. up. ?? The brake relay absolutely should not have any ability to power up the cruise control under any circumstances. The only way to power up a Rostra C.C. is through the red line from the control pad, not any of the other wires anywhere on the actuator. Which is why I am suspecting something generically and fundamentally wrong with the system in the first place, and my 'considered guess' that it may be the grounding (earth) of the entire system. ??

And BTW: I know a gentleman who is a long- distance, endurance rider who put a huge number of miles on a 'Busa doing Iron Butt rides. He loved the bike and modified it to suit his needs, including an automatic oiler for the chain, which allowed tremendous mileage out of a chain and sprocket set (over 30K miles if I remember correctly). So no laughing on this end, the 'Busa is a nice bike and a fine ride and if it is something that fits you and works, no reason NOT to ride it long- distance IMO.

Brian

Brian, thanks for the suggestion, I will give it a try but Im a bit sceptical. The issue occurs when I release the brake which corresponds to the relay in turn releasing NOT energising. Will be a week or so before I can try your suggestion as Im off on an Endurance ride this weekend which will be my first opportunity to use the Rostra as intended. I will just put up wth it being 'on' all the time. i will report back. Cheers Chris.

[B.D.F.]

The problem is that there is no way for the brake light sensor on the Rostra to cause it to power up in the first place. Beyond what vehicle, and beyond the relay, it is simply not possible to use the brake light wire to cause the actuator to power up. The only way to do that is to put power to the red wire in the control pad. So this problem as described is..... for lack of a better way to put it, impossible. And yet I am quite sure the gentleman is correct in what he has said. So now that we have an impossible situation actually happening, the only thing left is a system- wide 'gremlin' in my thinking. ??

What has been described would be the logical equivalent of unplugging a table lamp, leaving it unplugged, then turning on the lamp switch and having it illuminate. It just defies reason and logic and 'cannot happen'. Which leaves us with something really odd such as the table lamp has TWO cords plugged into two different places, which would be extremely odd in itself but the only way possible for an un-plugged lamp to light. This is what leads me to the thought that something like one or more grounds are not fully grounded, allowing wires to 'float' in voltage, and then allowing something odd to happen such as a miss- wired brake relay causing a voltage spike to the actuator, causing a false but valid apparent voltage on that other, red switch, wire.

Brian

I'd be less inclined to say it's a bad earth from the install  given the front brake switch doesn't induce the same symptoms and it's using the same earth.


IMHO it's more likely to be the rear brake switch itself, possibly its got some crud in it

[Ccapse]

To all you guys who have taken the time to respond to my query, thank you very much. I got back safely from my endurance ride and really enjoyed using the Rostra especially on the 'longest day' 1200km in 14hrs. That might not sound like much but over here in New Zealand without a North American freeway system, it required spirited riding and the ability to rest the right hand on the small amount of freeway we do have was very welcome.
To answer a previous question, yes the front brake does deactivate the Rostra as expected. Throughout the ride I Tried to determine if there was any pattern to my rear brake issue but nothing seemed obvious. I could go for long periods where the issue didnt appear and other times when it was quite frequent.  Ive decided to live with it for now. Frankly I cant work up the enthusiasm to pull all the plastics off again. I will have another look at the earths next oil-change when I have to remove the plastics anyway. For now Im concentrating on getting my R1150GS ready for some unsealed roads planned for Easter.

I do have one other question though. Ive bought a banjo bolt pressure switch that is sometimes used in front brake master cylinders to activate brake lights. I was thinking of replacing the banjo at my clutch slave cylinder with it and hooking it up to the Rostra clutch deactivation circuit so when I pull the clutch, hopefully the banjo switch will activate and be able to deactivate the Rostra if it is engaged. I am tapped into one of my ignition coils but the only time I tested that by pulling in the clutch, the Rostra didnt seem to disengage before I chickened out and released the clutch before the engine hit the redline so Im looking at this as an alternative safety. Any thoughts?

[B.D.F.]

Yes, the engine overspeed detection and shut-down using the tach. connection is shaky on the Rostra. Slow to react, the engine in a C-14 will often bounce off the rev. limiter, sometimes several times, before disengaging the unit. Which is why we use the clutch switch as the second path to deactivate the unit. And while it works better than the engine overspeed cut- off, it too can be a bit slow to disengage the unit I have found.

If you do use the clutch circuit, remember to also set the DIP switch from 'automatic' to 'manual' transmission as this switch is what sets the Rostra to react to either the engine speed or the clutch wire.

Glad to hear it worked well for you. C.C. on a motorcycle is often seen as a luxury but on long rides I really do not think that it is.

Brian

<snip>

I do have one other question though. Ive bought a banjo bolt pressure switch that is sometimes used in front brake master cylinders to activate brake lights. I was thinking of replacing the banjo at my clutch slave cylinder with it and hooking it up to the Rostra clutch deactivation circuit so when I pull the clutch, hopefully the banjo switch will activate and be able to deactivate the Rostra if it is engaged. I am tapped into one of my ignition coils but the only time I tested that by pulling in the clutch, the Rostra didnt seem to disengage before I chickened out and released the clutch before the engine hit the redline so Im looking at this as an alternative safety. Any thoughts?

[mikeyw64]

The nearest "odd thing " I have seen like that is with DSL (broadband over copper wire).

It's possible (and I have seen it whilst working faults)  for one leg of the copper pair to be be open circuit which will prevent the phone working for voice calls but broadband will still work (although at reduced speed)  due to the 2 ends of the broken wire acting like antennae.

The problem is that there is no way for the brake light sensor on the Rostra to cause it to power up in the first place. Beyond what vehicle, and beyond the relay, it is simply not possible to use the brake light wire to cause the actuator to power up. The only way to do that is to put power to the red wire in the control pad. So this problem as described is..... for lack of a better way to put it, impossible. And yet I am quite sure the gentleman is correct in what he has said. So now that we have an impossible situation actually happening, the only thing left is a system- wide 'gremlin' in my thinking. ??

What has been described would be the logical equivalent of unplugging a table lamp, leaving it unplugged, then turning on the lamp switch and having it illuminate. It just defies reason and logic and 'cannot happen'. Which leaves us with something really odd such as the table lamp has TWO cords plugged into two different places, which would be extremely odd in itself but the only way possible for an un-plugged lamp to light. This is what leads me to the thought that something like one or more grounds are not fully grounded, allowing wires to 'float' in voltage, and then allowing something odd to happen such as a miss- wired brake relay causing a voltage spike to the actuator, causing a false but valid apparent voltage on that other, red switch, wire.

Brian

[Pierreroyoldtimer]

Apologies in advance but I found my way to your forum whilst researching my install and now I have a problem was hoping the obvious vast experience within this site might be able to help me? Ive searched extensively but cant find an answer so I was wondering if you guys have ever encountered anything like the following?
Ive installed a 250-1123, using a CCS100 keypad, on a Hayabusa gen2 setup for touring (pause while howls of derision die down 😉).
It all works perfectly except for one strange trait.
If the unit is turned off, and I apply the rear brake, then when I release the rear brake, the unit turns on - intermittently. My install uses the relay-brake-light option as The gen2 has a LED brake light.
I dont have the issue when I apply the front brake.
The red wire and the activation for the brake light relay are connectd across the rear brake light switch, but front brake switch is in parallel to the rear so it seems odd I only have issue with rear brake.
I Originally had the issue constantly but I swapped to a different relay and now the problem is intermittent.
Both the grounds that go to the relay and the overall ground for the Cruise actuator go to the same bolt on the subframe.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what may be causing this annoying trait? Maybe I need a diode or capacitor on the relay somewhere (really guessing now)? 
I am aware of another install that had a similar issue with an ungrounded brake light modulator installed but my brake light is stock.
Any incites would be much appreciated.
Cheers Chris

[Pierreroyoldtimer]

Hello guys.
I am new on that forum. I started to install a Rostra CC on my FJR 1300 2005 early this spring and I finally have it working fine, after  much struggling, thanks to a forum similar to this one on FJR. I did two more successful installations for friends of mine after this one, one on a FJR 2012 and one on a 2016 FJ 09
At the moment, I would like to know if anybody knows the PPM on a Yamaha FJ 09 2016 or where I can find that information.
I also want to thank all the people who give very crucial informations about Rostra cruise installation, and congratulate Brian for his phenomenal contribution.
By the way, this is a realty that the installation on a C14 looks pretty straightforward compare to the FJR and FJ...
Thank you in advance.

[Freddy]

What source are you using as the signal - an ignition coil, or the bike's electronic speedo or an external coil & magnets?

[just gone]

At the moment, I would like to know if anybody knows the PPM on a Yamaha FJ 09 2016 or where I can find that information.

I'd ask 'Bob, unless that's a pseudonym for Pierreroy'. It's a post from 2015 so obviously an earlier model,
but did they have any internal gearing changes?
I can't recall why anyone would need that info. Was that important for a Dip switch setting? Can't you put the actuator in test mode and count the
led pulses for one wheel rotation and do the math based on approx. rear tire circumference or does the FJ09 get it from the front wheel...or.. am I mis-remembering the test mode.

[B.D.F.]

If that Brian is me, thanks for the kind words. If not, nevermind :-)

As I remember, the pulse stream on an FJR is much too fast for the Rostra to use. The C-14 can supply a usable series but it is at the maximum for the Rostra. The folks putting Rostra's on FJRs are using 'pulse dividers' to output something like one- eighth of the number of incoming pulses.

You can use the ignition pulse from one cylinder but I did not find that worked well on a C-14.

Finally, you can purchase a kit from Rostra which includes magnets and a Hall effect sensor; the magnets mount on the front wheel and the sensor mounts to a fork or brake component so it can sense the magnets passing. This system works very well, will allow the Rostra to be easily adapted to any motorcycle and is typically used on some BMWs because they use CANbus and the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) data is tough to get to.

Personally, I would try to find the VSS and use a divider. Unfortunately, I cannot help you on where the VSS is on an FJR and I am not even certain what years need a pulse stream divider. But there are some really clever guys on the FJR forum that I am sure can help you out.

Best of luck with it and it would be interesting to hear how you make out once it is installed.

Brian (either the Brian you referenced or the 'other' Brian, not sure   

Hello guys.
I am new on that forum. I started to install a Rostra CC on my FJR 1300 2005 early this spring and I finally have it working fine, after  much struggling, thanks to a forum similar to this one on FJR. I did two more successful installations for friends of mine after this one, one on a FJR 2012 and one on a 2016 FJ 09
At the moment, I would like to know if anybody knows the PPM on a Yamaha FJ 09 2016 or where I can find that information.
I also want to thank all the people who give very crucial informations about Rostra cruise installation, and congratulate Brian for his phenomenal contribution.
By the way, this is a realty that the installation on a C14 looks pretty straightforward compare to the FJR and FJ...
Thank you in advance.

[Pierreroyoldtimer]

I am using the bike vss circuit and I connected the cc gray wire close to the ecu box. Not using the clutch switch. The tach signal is also used by connecting the dark blue wire to the coil primary wire at the ecu box as well.
I finally managed to get the Rostra cc to work fine on the FJ09 by installing an extension arm on the throttle pulley (that multiply by 3 the leverage of the throttle pulley), based on the information I found on the C14 installation, where Brian mention that ‘longer the lever, the better it will work’. The DIP setting is similar to the one most people use on C14 and FJR except for #1-2 set for low and #7-8-9 set for 4 cylinder high.
Another hand, I was asking about the PPM because I had a serious issue on my installation on my 2005 FJR. It was passing the diagnostic test and the cc was engaging but not keeping the set speed. It was fluctuating up and down, going to a higher speed at every cycle, then when reaching about 90 km/h, was going full throttle. Then I found an information on a FJR forum that the PPM on a gen1 FJR was 80,000, way over the range the Rostra could handle. A member offered to send me a pulse divider (divide by 4...) he was not using and it solved my problem.

[Pierreroyoldtimer]

Yes, you are the Brian I am referring to and you do a fantastic job.
I installed a Rostra on a Gen II 2012 FJR and it did’nt require the pulse divider. As suggested by some  FJR forum members, I managed to install an a short extension arm to the throttle pulley. Due to space limitation tough, I could only extend by about 3/8’’ from the throttle stop, but it works fine.