Author Topic: Test assist, please (Read 9038 times)

bbroj · « **on:** July 17, 2011, 07:44:23 PM »

I just got back from a ride to a friend and fellow Connie riders house to swap ignitor boxes with him ,trying to see if I could cure my low rpm (1500 to 2200) stumble. My box failed according to the tests in the service manual in section 15 page 22. I tested my friends box prior to putting it in my bike, and it gave the same (failing) results. What I would like is for a few of you with good running C-10's to perform the tests and report back here, it takes less than 10 min. with an ohm meter. I'm wondering if both boxes were truly bad, or if there is a typo or other error in the chart in the manual. Both boxes I tested failed most if not all tests with regard to pins 4 and 5. The trouble with my bike is trying to hold a steady RPM near 2K, the bike surges and bucks. Even in neutral, I cannot hold 2000 RPM, it goes from 1800 and will not maintain 2k, it surges up. I am giong to recheck carb sync and try to sync at 2k. See my sig line for options and mods, the important stuff is all recent.

Thanks.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2011, 07:56:42 PM »

so placing a box from a known corrctly running bike onto your bike, and it still exhibits the original probloems without resolve didn't tell you the that ain't the problem....

?
sorry, but you have other issues going on, and I think they have to do with the rseperatory system.... i.e. ............... the dreaded carbs.
gimme them, or better yet send them to Steve, I haven't the time, nor you have the money, for me to make them work.
or, you can try them your self...

bbroj · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2011, 08:15:14 PM »

It strongly suggested to me it's not the problem, and I mentioned in my post, I'm looking elsewhere. I just got my carbs back from SISF prior to this riding season, sorry that's not in my sig line here, I'll have to update that. However, it is entirely possible that both of the boxes I tested are bad and the problem is minor enough to be overlooked by the other owner, he has different carb work done on his bike (shims). I am also trying to discover if there is an issue with the shop manual, so that all here could share in what I may have discovered, I kinda thought that was the point of a forum environment, no?

Summit670 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2011, 09:03:15 PM »

You know, I came across some info that goes like this - hook up a timing light or something to your electrical system. If the light fails in the RPM range then it is electrical. If the light stays on/consistent then it is something else like the carbs.

I don't remember the details, but if you "jump" a few wires coming from the ignitor and power them directly off the battery you can eliminate a short coming from one of these: key switch, kickstand switch, clutch switch, Kill switch. T-cro told me how to do it. Just make sure if you have battery tender pigtails, using the alligator clip ends on the non-batt side (plugged into bike pigtail) will result in the red clip being the negative, etc. For pins thru the wires I used safety pins because that left a nice big end to clip the alligator clip to.

I ordered new pickup coils for mine and they should be here Wed. I'll let you know if they work. (You did check your pickup coil gaps and they are in spec and equal, right?)

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2011, 10:27:07 PM »

the bike is running, and only has a problem at a set rpm range, albeit a narrow one at that..... he has substituted n alternative box from a supposed correctly running machine, and his bike still exhibits the same syndrome.....
are you getting a hint on this yet?

I'm sure even Steve will agree $#!+ happens during the shipping process, and might need to be looked at....your carbs may not be responding to the old fuel you had in your tank....you did drain and clean it didn't you.....

??
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

?

carry on.

i'm out.

sorry, but I say this becaues I have spent hours on peoples carbs, put them on and ran the bike where I couldn't get my finger off the start button before it started, and synched the thing just by looking at the screws.... (so close they never wanted to be touched), only to have someone stick the tank back on (even though I told them to dump it, clean it, and put it on dry...and add CLEAN fuel) and had them call me a month later telling me the bike was F'd up........yeah. I hear ya. sorry, no rebates after 30 days.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2011, 10:44:15 PM »

i just want to remind this is a complaint about na stumble in a 500 rpm range just off idle.....it ain't an electrical issue.
done.

kathybrj · « **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2011, 04:18:39 AM »

Good Lord...some people on this board are just plain miserable. I can't believe anyone would go to you for help in the first place. Obviously God-complexes are not reserved for the medical profession.

Thank you for being "out".

bbroj · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2011, 04:43:59 AM »

The bike has been through multiple tanks of fuel, it was empty and clean when I put it back on. I brought this problem up earlier this Spring and SISF assured me that if I was still having problems, I needed to look elsewhere. As mentioned, I will re-sync the carbs, and I'll drain the bowls just for grins. The main point in my opening this topic was to see if we could confirm a problem with the manual, but I always welcome helpful advise on troubleshooting the bike, occasionally someone here offers that.

bbroj · « **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2011, 05:19:47 AM »

Quote from: Summit670 on July 17, 2011, 09:03:15 PM

You know, I came across some info that goes like this - hook up a timing light or something to your electrical system. If the light fails in the RPM range then it is electrical. If the light stays on/consistent then it is something else like the carbs.

I don't remember the details, but if you "jump" a few wires coming from the ignitor and power them directly off the battery you can eliminate a short coming from one of these: key switch, kickstand switch, clutch switch, Kill switch. T-cro told me how to do it. Just make sure if you have battery tender pigtails, using the alligator clip ends on the non-batt side (plugged into bike pigtail) will result in the red clip being the negative, etc. For pins thru the wires I used safety pins because that left a nice big end to clip the alligator clip to.

I ordered new pickup coils for mine and they should be here Wed. I'll let you know if they work. (You did check your pickup coil gaps and they are in spec and equal, right?)

Summit, good ideas, but with stick coils, I would not know where to connect a timing light, mine is inductive and picks up from a spark plug wire, which I don't have! I did check and set the air gap on the pickup coils, they were not even at the time, but it didn't fix the problem either. I'll be looking forward to the rusults you get with new pickup coils. In the meantime, when I burn off some of the gas in my tank, I'll drain the float bowls and re-sync the carbs, and try to do it at 2000 RPM to see if it helps.

bbroj · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2011, 05:21:36 PM »

No takers on performing this test? I thought for sure I could interest 1 or 2 of you....

Summit670 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2011, 05:48:36 PM »

Ok, tested my spare. I couldn't get a reading from 4 & 5. Some other pins checked out ok per manual, some others didn't. Don't know if that means anything or not. Maybe I have a bad box too, lol. That box works fine as verified last year when I was having other trouble.

Have't put my new pickup coils in yet. Maybe after I eat and it cools down a few degrees. It is 103 now and I figure my garage is 93-95.

bbroj · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2011, 05:59:25 PM »

Thanks, Summit. That's kinda what I expected. Pins 4 and 5 were almost completely opposite of what the manual indicated. I believe yours and my boxes are fine, and there is a problem with the test procedure in the book.

Rick Hall · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2011, 06:07:32 PM »

Quote from: bbroj on July 20, 2011, 05:21:36 PM

No takers on performing this test? I thought for sure I could interest 1 or 2 of you....

I just checked mine, still the OEM ignitor, all readings w/in specs. 1886-1993 Service Manual, 1994 Connie with 167k miles. I did paint the bike blue a few years ago, installed SteveJ's old Russell seat further back, and recently installed SiSF's sprocket mod. Other than that...

I have a slight burble till off idle, and can't wring her out past 128 w/o a tail wind.

Rick

bbroj · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2011, 06:12:44 PM »

Hmmm, now I'm truely puzzled. If all of your readings are within spec, I wonder if something has changed in the post '93 bikes? Are the values for the rows corresponding to pins 4 and 5 all infinity?

Rick Hall · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2011, 06:37:50 PM »

4-5 and 5-4 all infinity. If there was a change, it'd be int he back adendum pages, or should be.

See attached.

Rick

bbroj · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2011, 07:20:40 PM »

Yup, same chart. I checked the supplement section, and didn't see anything for those measurements. Now the tough question, does anyone know what pins 4 and 5 do, and are they significant to performance?

Summit670 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2011, 08:16:24 PM »

I just installed new pickup coils. 15 minutes of test riding with a lot of it in the trouble range and no hint of misfire. I think the problem is solved. Will verify Thursday on a longer ride.

GeeBeav · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2011, 08:22:45 PM »

That's the same chart as in my '84-'90 GPz900R (aka ZX900) manual. The numbers I wrote down a few years ago were all in tolerance. Can't remember what meter I used, but supposedly that will make a difference.

bbroj · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2011, 07:53:07 AM »

Summit, glad to hear you believe your trouble is resolved, keep us posted after a longer ride!

I traced the wiring in the manual and confirmed colors on the bike, the two pins in question (4 and 5) are the solid green and black that go to the coils, and the black is also tapped for the tach. Rick and GeeBeav are stating that all of their readings are within range, presumably NO ONE is using the Kawasaki "special tool", but a standard VOM, as I am. Once again, my readings aren't even close, opposite end of the scale in fact. My bike, and several others, run with the readings I am getting, but I'm wondering if a CDI box with the correct readings would make a noticable difference? TCro seems to be the resident coil/ignition guru, any input on what I may be looking at here?

midnightrider · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2011, 09:29:41 AM »

I would be willing to bet that the kawasaki specail tool is probably just a version of this

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Digital-Multimeters/Fluke-88V.htm?PID=56148

which includes the 10 meg ohm input impedance to protect the circuits your checking. Thats why we use them in aviation.

Also, I am on my third IC box. As part of trouble shooting I used the same chart. Its always worked for me. Interesting note, the two boxes that quit me were bad on pins 4 and 5.

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Author Topic: Test assist, please (Read 9038 times)