Author Topic: What makes me crazy and annoyed..  (Read 465194 times)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1940 on: February 05, 2020, 03:35:48 AM »
Back to the Monarchy?
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Offline Boomer

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1941 on: February 05, 2020, 08:38:05 AM »
Back to the Monarchy?
Nah, that never worked either. Zero representation there.
OK when you have a Queen Elizabeth I or II, but nasty when you have a King Henry VIII or King John I.

We've had our current parliamentary system since 1707 when the UK was formed, and it is woefully out of date.
What we need is representative democracy, where every-bodies vote counts throughout the term of Parliament.

I doubt it'll happen without violence though as there are too many that have their snouts in the trough that will fight to the last to keep it.
And no, I am not proposing violence, but historically it often seems to be the only way to effect real change.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1942 on: February 05, 2020, 09:53:22 AM »
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
-Mao Zedong

It has sure worked often enough in the past.

One comment about our two systems: though they are similar, I believe there is one really large difference. We both have two houses of Congress, and upper and a lower, but I believe your upper house (the House of Lords) is without any political power. That, coupled with the fact that the head of your Parliament is also the head of gov't differs substantially from our system. We have two active systems of approx. equal political power and they may be and often are, held by different parties. Further, the head of gov't (our President) is independently elected and so has no relationship to either house. Because the two houses have different tasks and different areas of control, we can sort of end up with a crippled gov't that still works in some ways; a great example is in the choosing of Federal judges, all the way to the Supreme Court. This is the task of the President and the Senate (upper house) only and so while we have two houses are split between the two parties, the senate and the President alone choose judges. Right now, the Republican party controls both the Senate and is the party of the President so they are not impeded in any way by having a Democratic party house (lower house- the House of Representatives).

It might be interesting to you that all this impeachment nonsense is a fore- gone conclusion before it began. The House of Representatives much accuse the President of 'High crimes and misdemeanors' (impeachment) but they have absolutely no input in actually trying and convicting the President. So the House has impeached him while the republican Senate will shortly find him not guilty. Of course this has little- to- nothing to do with actual crimes or guilt but the vote will end up going down the party lines, just as it did back in the late 90's. Without both houses being controlled by the same party, being impeached AND being found guilty is nearly impossible. Hence my view that the whole thing is a dog and pony show without any substance.

Democracy absolutely does have its lumps. The problem, as Winnie (Churchill) said "....Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

Your system, at least as I understand it, has the huge benefit of forming a coalition gov't from more than one party. That way, at least some other opinions are registered while doing business. Ours is an all- or- nothing system where one party alone will dominate both branches of gov't by design (Executive, the President and Legislative, the Senate and the House of Rep.'s).

Brian

Nah, that never worked either. Zero representation there.
OK when you have a Queen Elizabeth I or II, but nasty when you have a King Henry VIII or King John I.

We've had our current parliamentary system since 1707 when the UK was formed, and it is woefully out of date.
What we need is representative democracy, where every-bodies vote counts throughout the term of Parliament.

I doubt it'll happen without violence though as there are too many that have their snouts in the trough that will fight to the last to keep it.
And no, I am not proposing violence, but historically it often seems to be the only way to effect real change.
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Offline Boomer

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1943 on: February 06, 2020, 09:05:34 AM »
Your system, at least as I understand it, has the huge benefit of forming a coalition gov't from more than one party. That way, at least some other opinions are registered while doing business. Ours is an all- or- nothing system where one party alone will dominate both branches of gov't by design (Executive, the President and Legislative, the Senate and the House of Rep.'s).
The UK is the same. Our electoral system is designed to create a "majority" party so we get wild swings from left to right and back again.
It's most of the rest of the European countries that use PropRep and end up with coalitions.

Yes, nobody over here expected Trump to be impeached by the Senate the same as we would never manage to win a vote of no confidence in Boris Johnson, even though he has time and again been proven to have lied and cheated.

Best description of politics I have ever heard was:
poli - Many, Lots.
tics - Small irritating blood sucking parasites.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1944 on: February 06, 2020, 03:29:17 PM »
nobody over here expected Trump to be impeached by the Senate

Nobody anywhere did (unless they were just delusional), especially since there were no "high crimes or misdemeanors" committed; it would be really hard to sway any Republican senators (except the one with an axe to grind) to convict on what was really just a partisan political stunt.  Of course, few would know that based on the vast majority of the "main stream" media's content.

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Offline MrPepsi

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1945 on: February 06, 2020, 03:40:36 PM »
Did this thread just get moved to the Arena?
get this crap out of here.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1946 on: February 06, 2020, 03:44:33 PM »
Did this thread just get moved to the Arena?

That would make everyone crazy and annoyed!
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Offline gPink

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1947 on: February 06, 2020, 04:18:23 PM »
Did this thread just get moved to the Arena?
get this crap out of here.

You seem to be the only one getting angry.

Offline Cholla

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1948 on: February 07, 2020, 06:03:38 AM »
The biggest problem here (USA) is that there are really only two parties and can really only be two because of a spoiler system.  So if neither party represents what you want, you are screwed.  Vote for any third-party or independent and your vote will actually wind up supporting the candidate you hate the most, pretty much guaranteed.  There is an easy solution to that- instant runoff voting.  But the two entrenched parties would never support it, because it would make them lose control.

http://fairvote.org
The current voting system.

No, the biggest problem here is the fact we have political parties.
One of the Founders warned against forming parties because the politicians will work for the party and not the people.
Who says the Founders didn't have foresight?
Then we have the people voting for said parties and not the candidates.
Well, they say the vote for the person but its only because they belong to a certain party.

Those politicians do the bidding of the people who run the political parties instead of the people who elected them.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1949 on: February 07, 2020, 07:10:49 AM »
No, the biggest problem here is the fact we have political parties.
One of the Founders warned against forming parties because the politicians will work for the party and not the people.
Who says the Founders didn't have foresight?
Then we have the people voting for said parties and not the candidates.
Well, they say the vote for the person but its only because they belong to a certain party.

Those politicians do the bidding of the people who run the political parties instead of the people who elected them.

Finally!!! After ALL this time Cholla says something that makes sense.
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Offline just gone

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1950 on: February 07, 2020, 11:22:03 AM »
.........especially since there were no "high crimes or misdemeanors" committed; it would be really hard to sway any Republican senators (except the one with an axe to grind) to convict on what was really just a partisan political stunt.  Of course, few would know that based on the vast majority of the "main stream" media's content.

Life moves on...

Well I disagree. Respectfully. I believe he was guilty of both articles of impeachment. The second one (obstruction of congress) I think, even though he is guilty, we can dismiss as not meeting
the standard of a high crime since almost every president tries at one time or another to obstruct congress. Sometimes I wish I could obstruct congress. I don't see how anyone doesn't think he is guilty
of the first count of abuse of power. I can see how some might think that what he did was not severe enough to meet "High Crimes" but clearly his self serving goal of trying to get the Ukrainians to
investigate Joe Biden's son before they would receive military aid shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as not meeting the standard of a misdemeanor. I think we all understand that it really wasn't out
of character to do that. It's probably been the way he has done business his whole life, and in the business world it would be seen as good business. I'm sure Walmart employs similar "quid pro quo" tactics
of playing other businesses off of each other to get lower supply prices. So does what he definitely did do meet the standard of a misdemeanor? ..well I can see debate about that as opposed to just dismissing it out of hand as a hoax or political stunt. I really wish religion was kept out of politics, but when one party seems to be courting, and is supported by, religious groups, it seems very hypocritical of them to come down so harshly on the one senator of their party that went across party lines for what he said was because of an oath he took before god.

As for political parties, I wish they were not allowed at the U.S. representative level. I see Congress as being representative of the people, as opposed to the senate where we expect a level of statesmanship and experience and thoughtfulness to moderate whatever comes out of Congress. Thus the quick 2 year turn around for Congress and the 6 year election cycle for Senators. Currently (I guess) we pick our Congress person based on which party they're in and expect them to always vote that way. I'd prefer if they constantly checked with us about every little item that comes before them so that they truly represented their district. They should start checking with us right after they are elected. Mine however always sends out questionnaires right before an election.  Sure most things probably would go along party lines (that is the chosen party of most of the people in the district), and some things would be more knee-jerk reactions of the people. There might just be a few surprises however, and there would be more involvement of the people in their government if they heard from their representative once a week or every couple of weeks about what's coming up for a vote, and in return providing their feedback. The representative's main job should be to find out what we want and then relay that to congress through the voting and bill writing process. They should be a conduit of us only. Once they do that well for a few terms then we can see if we want to make them Senators someday.

Ok, I'm done..off to the Arena with the lot of you. 130 131 pages of "What makes me crazy and annoyed". We sure sure are an irritated group of crazy grumpy ol' farts  >:(. (respectfully speaking  ;)

Offline MrPepsi

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1951 on: February 07, 2020, 12:47:28 PM »
You seem to be the only one getting angry.

You figured that out through text did ya?
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Offline maxtog

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1952 on: February 07, 2020, 03:32:08 PM »
No, the biggest problem here is the fact we have political parties.
One of the Founders warned against forming parties because the politicians will work for the party and not the people.  Who says the Founders didn't have foresight?  Then we have the people voting for said parties and not the candidates.  Well, they say the vote for the person but its only because they belong to a certain party.
Those politicians do the bidding of the people who run the political parties instead of the people who elected them.

I agree that parties CAN be a problem, but I also think they can be useful.  The fact there can only be 2 parties is the main problem; far worse than the existence of parties.  If there could be any number of parties and independents, that would solve the issue because real choice becomes possible.  But we can't make that happen unless we change the voting to be a ranked system.  A single vote, "winner takes all" majority, with built-in spoilers, is what caused the 2 party system to take control and prevents any real possible change.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1953 on: February 07, 2020, 03:41:56 PM »
Well I disagree. Respectfully. I believe he was guilty of both articles of impeachment.

Well, we can agree to disagree (which is perfectly fine).  I followed it and examined it from different perspectives and don't think either meets the legal standard, nor the precedents set (I am, of course, far from being a lawyer, thank goodness).  For the latter, nearly every president would be guilty (including Obama).  But we do need to have checks on each branch.

In any case, in just 9 short months, those really upset about it can vote for whoever ends up being the far-left Socialist (at least that is what appears to be what the other choice will be, so far) running against him (since, due to a two-party-only-system, there will be no other choice available).

Quote
Ok, I'm done..off to the Arena with the lot of you. 130 131 pages of "What makes me crazy and annoyed". We sure sure are an irritated group of crazy grumpy ol' farts  >:(. (respectfully speaking  ;))

Well, nothing should need to be banished to the Arena, as long as things are civil :)
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Offline Conrad

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1954 on: February 08, 2020, 05:55:05 AM »
Well said Marty.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1955 on: February 08, 2020, 06:09:24 AM »
Ok guys, knock off the political stuff, please.  I'd lock the thread and move it but it's my thread and I don't want to do that.  Continue on in the Arena if you want and anyone that wants that access let me know.  I've been away for several days otherwise I would have chimed in earlier.


What makes me crazy and annoyed...having to remind people that this isn't the place for discussing politics and religion.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1956 on: February 08, 2020, 07:53:41 AM »
Quote
What makes me crazy and annoyed

Having to color gray more and more frequently.  I swear they are changing the formulation or something to last less and less time each year.  Couldn't possibly be me.  (Just not ready to give up yet.)
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Offline just gone

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1957 on: February 08, 2020, 09:42:09 AM »
Having to color gray more and more frequently.  I swear they are changing the formulation or something to last less and less time each year.  Couldn't possibly be me.  (Just not ready to give up yet.)

OK Boomer!  ;D

Offline maxtog

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1958 on: February 08, 2020, 12:54:55 PM »
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Offline Conrad

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Re: What makes me crazy and annoyed..
« Reply #1959 on: February 09, 2020, 06:18:11 AM »
Having to color gray more and more frequently.  I swear they are changing the formulation or something to last less and less time each year.  Couldn't possibly be me.  (Just not ready to give up yet.)

You color your hair?  :o

Color me, unsurprised.
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