Author Topic: Key stuck  (Read 7729 times)

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2019, 10:28:27 AM »
Glad to hear that you got it running, fixed the problem and best of all, identified the problem. Nothing worse IMO that tinkering with something, having a problem 'go away' and having no idea what, if anything at all, you did to 'fix' it. That is a sure recipe for the original problem to come back and bite you on the butt.....

Brian
Thanks again for all the help Brian!

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2019, 11:25:09 AM »
Nothing worse IMO that tinkering with something, having a problem 'go away' and having no idea what, if anything at all, you did to 'fix' it.

Oh yes there is worse- having an annoying intermittent problem which you spend an eternity trying to fix, doing everything you can, thinking you found it, putting it all back together, then it works fine FOR A WHILE and then starts again; rinse and repeat.  That is much worse :)   (And I seem to get stuck with such problems all the time on various things (not on this bike, but just things in life, well except for the damn gas cap corrosion).

But I bet he will be OK now.  I will it to be so! (That mostly only works when I do it for OTHER people).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2019, 01:27:21 PM »
The key is not working again. Same thing.  On my way to get gas, a lighter and sledgehammer  >:(

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2019, 02:22:44 PM »
That piece of brass you showed before looked like one of the 'teeth' (do not know the right term) from inside the key cylinder. Is it possible that they are falling out / breaking off and jamming up the works? What I mean by 'teeth' is the little brass stampings that slide when you insert the key (Easy Boys!) to retract them and allow the cylinder to turn. If the retaining mechanism has broken or failed, you may continue to spit those things out. ?? Just a random thought.

Brian

The key is not working again. Same thing.  On my way to get gas, a lighter and sledgehammer  >:(
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2019, 02:24:01 PM »
Yeah but that is exactly what taking something apart, putting it back together and finding it now working will become- a gremlin that you have NOT fixed. You have expanded on exactly my point. Anything that just disappears for no known reason will almost always come back to haunt the owner.

Brian

Oh yes there is worse- having an annoying intermittent problem which you spend an eternity trying to fix, doing everything you can, thinking you found it, putting it all back together, then it works fine FOR A WHILE and then starts again; rinse and repeat.  That is much worse :)   (And I seem to get stuck with such problems all the time on various things (not on this bike, but just things in life, well except for the damn gas cap corrosion).

But I bet he will be OK now.  I will it to be so! (That mostly only works when I do it for OTHER people).
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2019, 04:16:12 PM »
The key is not working again. Same thing.  On my way to get gas, a lighter and sledgehammer  >:(

Ug!  Well, at least you now have the experience on how the stuff comes apart and goes together.  You have to be a lot closer to a solution than before.  I think I lost my bet in my previous reply :(
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2019, 04:23:12 PM »
That piece of brass you showed before looked like one of the 'teeth' (do not know the right term) from inside the key cylinder. Is it possible that they are falling out / breaking off and jamming up the works? What I mean by 'teeth' is the little brass stampings that slide when you insert the key (Easy Boys!) to retract them and allow the cylinder to turn.

Not a bad thought, although having been inside lock cylinders before, I am not sure how any of those pins (that is the word you were looking for ;) )  could escape.   I do know that if one plans to take a cylinder apart, there are lots of good videos about that- generally they all work the same.

Pins can wear down, and springs can fatigue, and contaminates can gunk them from moving properly or in the right position, so there are other possibilities to explore.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2898
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2019, 04:26:40 PM »
the lockset, as it is, is similar to most typical style automotive locks, the "blade/tooth" is utilized as it is more resistant to being "seized" up by corrosion, by nature of the flat plates in lieu of cylindrical "pins"
Being a 2 edged key, brings into place a tie between the sides of the notched key, and all of this is relying on springs, on both edges, to return the "teeth" to a home position. Maybe one of those springs has been displaced, and no longer applies pressure on the tooth, which effectively makes it "hang" out, and twist out of the housing, which I assume you will find when you take it apart, and find that slightly chewed up brass part, again, sitting in the lower bowels of the lock recess.

Now that you found what you found, I'd actually drill the security screws out of the switchlock, take it to a "competent/reliable, and proven" locksmith, and have him disasemble and re-assemble it, replacing any worn springs that tension the teeth. Make sure he has a good key also.
I've disassembled locks like this in the past, and color coded each "tooth" before removing them, so I could insure they actually lined back up correctly with the key (yeah, I goofed a couple times...btdt) but did end up with a functioning lock eventually.. (I had to but junkyard locks, and remove the parts, to get the correct springs I needed)
The tumblers are usually held together with a "lock"strip metal slide in piece, on the side of the tumbler assembly, and can be pulled/pried out to rebuild the set.

I think you did well to find the initial cause, now enlist someone that may be able to really fix it, in a matter of minutes for you, with the assembly in hand..

Locksmiths are hard to find anymore, I have 2 local ones, that have passed the business' down from grandfather, to son, and now grandson... they can do in 5 minutes what it would take me an hour, and make it work.


best of luck.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Locksmith

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 38
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2019, 05:00:46 AM »
Those flat metal plates that the key goes through are called "wafers". The notches in the key are called "cuts". The distance between the cuts are called "spaces" and the depth of the cut is called "depths" (ok, that one was easy).

The wafers are specific to each brand of lock, so your local locksmith probably won’t have them, but if he is skilled, he can modify existing ones to fit. The wafer springs are in the same boat.

Unfortunately there are no standards outside of each manufacturer (Honda won’t fit Kawasaki for example).

Btw, Honda automotive locks are the crappiest of them all, but I don’t do automotive any more so that may have changed.

I’ve been a locksmith for 37 years and a Kawasaki rider for even longer.

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2019, 12:24:08 PM »
So yeah I'm standing in front of my bike,  it's running,  I took apart switch again and prodded it didn't really find anything but it started working again. I put it back together and plugged it in but didn't remount to triple clamp. I am going to bring it to a locksmith and see if they can rebuild it properly. If not I'll swap it out, at least I was able to get it running so I can finish my work and button up all the Tupperware. Now that I drilled out and replaced the security screws it's easy to remove and replace the switch assembly.....to be continued.....

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2019, 09:44:33 AM »
Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....

Offline Rubber_Snake

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 273
  • Country: us
  • 2009 GTR1400 ABS, Black
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2019, 10:29:45 AM »
Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....
Sounds like he was able to repair it.  If so, that’s great news.  Glad to hear it!  What did it end up costing you?
2009 GTR 1400 ABS, 48k miles, AMSOIL synthetic 10W-40 (since new), AMSOIL synthetic 75W-90 final drive (since new). Helibar Horizons, Oxford heated grips, V-Stream windscreen, Mountain Runner Flash, Brian’s low fuel eliminator farkle, ST2 smart brake module and smart turn system, Two Brothers Black Series M5 w/P1X decibel killer.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2019, 10:34:47 AM »
That is what I thought the 'brass piece of debris' looked like in your first disassembly. This is good news in that you now know what caused it and can fix it with certainty; this one should not come back to bite you in the butt.

Brian

Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2019, 03:57:05 PM »
Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....

Great news!  How would it break?  Good question.... I don't have any good ideas on that.  I would imagine it might have been slightly sticking and perhaps you applied too much force trying to turn it and it snapped or something?  Perhaps a slight bit of hard foriegn matter got in the there and contributed?  I would ask the locksmith how that typically happens...  As far as I know, that is a first on this forum.

That is what I thought the 'brass piece of debris' looked like in your first disassembly. This is good news in that you now know what caused it and can fix it with certainty; this one should not come back to bite you in the butt.

Indeed.  It sounds pretty definitive now, except what would could cause the break in the first place.  Sometimes we don't get all the answers we want.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2019, 04:31:21 PM »
It might have been defective right from manufacture, they are punched to form a slot in the middle and that makes them pretty weak in the first place. Maybe someone did not get a key in all the way (Easy Boys!) and forced the switch to rotate with one plate not retracted all the way. ??

But because one was broken, it makes them all suspect IMO along with the cylinder and housing. I would assume the locksmith checked the entire locking ass'y for any other damage and fixed any he found while he was there.

The locksmith that commented before in this thread will hopefully chime in and let us know if this kind of thing does happen occasionally and perhaps why.

Brian

Great news!  How would it break?  Good question.... I don't have any good ideas on that.  I would imagine it might have been slightly sticking and perhaps you applied too much force trying to turn it and it snapped or something?  Perhaps a slight bit of hard foriegn matter got in the there and contributed?  I would ask the locksmith how that typically happens...  As far as I know, that is a first on this forum.

Indeed.  It sounds pretty definitive now, except what would could cause the break in the first place.  Sometimes we don't get all the answers we want.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2019, 05:40:05 PM »
I didn't pay,  it wasn't ready.  He took it apart again because the key would only come out when it was turned all the way to the right, it was stuck in the switch in the lock position  ;D
I let him know he disassembled it a 2nd time for nothing lol.  I'll ask him tomorrow when I pick it up what might of caused this to happen and I'm sure his reply will be user error..... I'll update tomorrow....

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2019, 05:46:13 PM »
That is what I thought the 'brass piece of debris' looked like in your first disassembly. This is good news in that you now know what caused it and can fix it with certainty; this one should not come back to bite you in the butt.

Brian
Wow.....well I was in the clear until you posted this..... now I'm sure to get the "you're in the clear" Whammy!    ;D

Offline PH14

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2019, 08:23:27 PM »
I didn't pay,  it wasn't ready.  He took it apart again because the key would only come out when it was turned all the way to the right, it was stuck in the switch in the lock position  ;D
I let him know he disassembled it a 2nd time for nothing lol.  I'll ask him tomorrow when I pick it up what might of caused this to happen and I'm sure his reply will be user error..... I'll update tomorrow....

 :rotflmao:

Offline BrianK

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: 00
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2019, 06:17:26 PM »
Ok time to put this story to bed.  I picked up my lock today and it works fine.  The total bill was $74 which is more than I expected , the labor rate is $92/hr (I didn't know this) and they charged me 3/4 hr labor. This is a lot less than this fiasco could of cost me so overall I'm happy and thanks to everyone on this site who helped. 
  Unfortunately the guy who fixed my lock wasn't there so I didn't find out the cause of the broken wafer or if it's common

Offline MAN OF BLUES

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2898
  • Country: 00
  • WHISKEY.Tango.Foxtrot.
Re: Key stuck
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2019, 04:56:08 PM »
Ok time to put this story to bed.  I picked up my lock today and it works fine.  The total bill was $74 which is more than I expected , the labor rate is $92/hr (I didn't know this) and they charged me 3/4 hr labor. This is a lot less than this fiasco could of cost me so overall I'm happy and thanks to everyone on this site who helped. 
  Unfortunately the guy who fixed my lock wasn't there so I didn't find out the cause of the broken wafer or if it's common

Glad you got it fixed...
Bummed about the $$ thing tho.. but I guess its normal... everyone wants the Pie$$ , seems they should have given you some ballpark $ figure, I would have had to ask them before letting them run wild...

I'm kind of lucky here in my small town, I have people that do business a bit differently (yeah, I know, old fashioned etc...) but some things done by locals, for locals, that have known and used them for years, get perks... and word of mouth advertising at local watering holes and such.

I think you did well to find the initial cause, now enlist someone that may be able to really fix it, in a matter of minutes for you, with the assembly in hand..

Locksmiths are hard to find anymore, I have 2 local ones, that have passed the business' down from grandfather, to son, and now grandson... they can do in 5 minutes what it would take me an hour, and make it work.
best of luck.

I guess my thoughts on 5 minutes really don't relate to a clock as much as some bussiness' do.

anywho, glad it's perking...
 :thumbs: :thumbs:

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..