Removing the secondary flies-Question

[kjk concours]

Can I just remove the flies, or will that hurt anything. It's a 2008 model no TC.

[jimmymac]

Yeah, You can remove them without issues. It wouldn't hurt to get a PCV and a flies out map though. My bike came alive!

[maxtog]

Can I just remove the flies, or will that hurt anything. It's a 2008 model no TC

Like Jimmy says- without traction control you can just remove them with zero negative effect.

UPDATED: PENDING MORE INFO

[Shoe]

I have posted this question and received the opposite answer. If you remove the flies you can't have a flies out map without something to control the ECM. Hence you need a PC or the ECM needs to be flashed.

Am I correct? 

[texrider]

I've done nothing to mine yet, but it seems the guys who've dyno'd theirs say it needs to be leaned out anyway. Flies out shouldn't be a negative, except perhaps a bit of abruptness upon whacking the throttle wide open suddenly.

[maxtog]

I have posted this question and received the opposite answer. If you remove the flies you can't have a flies out map without something to control the ECM. Hence you need a PC or the ECM needs to be flashed.

Am I correct? 

Hmm... I am now questioning my previous answer.  Typically people will either flash the ECU (Guhl, for example) to open the flies earlier and remap OR remove the secondary butterflies AND add a PC.  I was sure the answer was that it makes no difference... however, if just the secondaries are removed, the computer will not know it, and since it is table based, it might blindly make the fuel adjustments assuming the flies are still there, starving the engine of fuel... unless it is ALSO adjusting the mix based on a manifold vs. an atmospheric pressure sensor.

More info needed.

[Racer Boy]

From what I understand, the ECU is not feedback based, so it has a loaded map that assumes you have the secondary flies in. It will run too lean if all you do is remove the flies.

After looking at all my options (remove flies, get PCV, find a good map, or get the ECU reflashed), I got my ECU reflashed by Guhl Motors. Very little disassembly required, and it runs great.

[Son of Pappy]

Yes, pull them.  PCV will add to the gain, but the flies are closed at lower throttle settings, once you get on the happy grip the flies are open.  She runs rich as it is, someone some time back pulled the flies with no PC and he reported nothing negative over a 2 year period...  I didn't want to chance it at the time so I got the PCIII, and then the PCV so I could run the Auto tune module.
Is there a gamble?  Yes, but in my opinion, it is slight.  If you have any concerns?  Get a PCV.  If not?  Run it.

[Rembrant]

... unless it is ALSO adjusting the mix based on a manifold vs. an atmospheric pressure sensor.

More info needed.

From what I understand, the ECU is not feedback based, so it has a loaded map that assumes you have the secondary flies in. It will run too lean if all you do is remove the flies.

Just to clarify, the Concours-14 FI ECU uses two fuel maps. At idle, and up to approximately 10% throttle position, the FI ECU uses an IAP (Idle air pressure) map. From 10% throttle position and above, the FI ECU uses a TPS fuel map. There isn't a fixed cut off where the ECU switches from the IAP map to the TPS fuel map, but it is approximately 10% plus/minus.

The throttle body assembly has a MAP sensor that is supplying feedback to the ECU, which the ECU compares with the current atmospheric pressure. So, at low throttle openings, there is a differential pressure that is monitored. Once the throttle is opened past a certain point, and there is no longer a pressure differential, the FI ECU switches to the TPS fuel map.

I expect this is why the boys with the ZX14 throttle body conversions are having some low RPM abruptness or other off-idle issues. The engine is obviously flowing more air, and it is likely confusing the ECU because the IAP map was for 40mm ID TB's, and not 44mm. The PC5 works perfectly for fuel tuning between 10-100% throttle position, but tuning from 0-10% would be a little bit of a moving target for the PC5 to 'correct' as it were.

(PS: I will be installing ZX14 TB's myself before too long, and will be doing a lot of tuning, both with a PC5, and inside my own ECU, so I will post lots of updates as I have them.)

Regarding the secondary flies removal without fuel tuning: It *shouldn't* be a problem, and I thought there were lots of guys that have already done this no? It's not really much different than all of the people that have been installing TRE's on Kawasaki's for years....they open the secondary flies earlier, with no fuel changes. Fuel delivery is still based on TPS, not the secondary fly position. I would still personally prefer to see a PC5 or PCIII installed.

Cheers,
Rem

[Evert]

After much research I finally took the flies out last new years day (remarkably easy with a good quality screwdriver) and while it does improve the bike somewhat I am really glad I didn't spend the money for a PC or a re-flash. Too much money for too little gain.
I believe the connie runs a little lean out of the factory and removing flies does no harm.

Evert

[Dan Forker]

What am I missing here?  I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?


Fork

[Rembrant]

What am I missing here?  I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?


Fork

Well, I guess it depends on what you want to do. People were removing the secondary flies long before Guhl ever started flashing C14 ECU's. You can remove the flies for free, and buy a Power Commander for $300 bucks, and you're good to go. The good thing with a Power Commander is that the owner of the motorcycle is in control and can make changes or modifications whenever he/she wants to. On top of that, when you sell your bike later on, you can also sell your Power Commander for about 2/3 of what you originally paid for it, and get some of your money back. I always do this;).

The Guhl ECU reflash has its place as well, and is also a very good option. Where it benefits the most is, is in not having to remove the secondary flies...which can be troublesome. I think the Guhl reflash is a fantastic option for the guy that wants a no-fuss, easy solution. Just plug it in, and go. Like a Ronco Rotisserie, just set it, and forget it;).

I'm not going to say that one is better than other...but based on the rider's needs and wants, one option may be better suited than the other.

PS: The Healtech GiPro really does very little other than to open the secondary flies slightly earlier. It wouldn't be doing anything even close to what a Guhl ECU flash does, or a PC5 with flies removed. For what they cost, I guess they're ok.

Cheers,
Rem

[ZG]

What am I missing here?  I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?


Fork

A PCV also allows you to have multiple maps, a reflash does not offer that.

[B.D.F.]

Well, just my opinion but 'the real deal' is to remove the secondary 'flies and re-map the air / fuel mixture, which most people do with a PC V. Even better would be to install the optional O2 sensor and mixture control module that piggy- back's onto the PC and make a truly correct air / fuel map for your bike.

Again, my opinion- the secondaries were never needed or even wanted, at least by a lot of us, on the bike in the first place. They are there to basically neuter the bike and give ultimate throttle control to the ECU. The bike not only runs and performs perfectly without them, they get in the way and hobble the bike's performance at low- to- mid range engine speeds.

An ECU re-flash can only approach an actual 'flies removal and so IMO is not the equal of simply removing the 'flies in the first place. I think everyone would have to agree that 'removed from the bike' is the absolute least intrusive secondary 'flies can possibly be :-)

But there are other considerations and this is not really something that can be defined by words such as 'best', 'second best' and so forth. For me, removing the 'flies and adding a Power Commander yielded what I want from the bike which is merely that it run correctly and act like the 1,400 cc modern bike that I bought in the first place. A re-flashed ECU may get close to that condition but will not yield secondary 'flies that are open 100% of the time.

Another consideration is restoration of the bike to stock for sale if that is desirable (a lot of people do this).

So in the end, it really does come down to what you expect out of these changes (re-flash vs. 'flies removed), how much money you want to spend, and how comfortable you are with working on the bike.

Brian

What am I missing here?  I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?


Fork

[B.D.F.]

That depends on the year of the bike; on the '08 and '09's, that is true. But on the 2010's and later, there is a second 'economy' map that is left behind in a re-flash.

The Gen.1 bikes seem to offer more in the way of color re-flashing options though. At least from the examples we've seen here.... 

Brian

A PCV also allows you to have multiple maps, a reflash does not offer that.

[ZG]

The Gen.1 bikes seem to offer more in the way of color re-flashing options though. At least from the examples we've seen here.... 

Brian

 

[maxtog]

After much research I finally took the flies out last new years day (remarkably easy with a good quality screwdriver) and while it does improve the bike somewhat I am really glad I didn't spend the money for a PC or a re-flash. Too much money for too little gain.

All I can say is the change was HUGE to me.  And far more bang for the buck compared to most any other performance mod I can think of.

So... things that make you say "hmmm".

[maxtog]

A PCV also allows you to have multiple maps, a reflash does not offer that.

Not completely true.  On the 2nd gen, the ECO mode is retained, and that is a completely separate map.  Of course, the USER can't just change either map  to something else without going through the whole flash procedure (and I am not sure Guhl will even offer the option to flash a custom map or even change the ECO map).  For those not wanting to make other major performance changes (full exhaust, tb, intakes, etc), there should be little need for additional maps, however.

[maxtog]

Well, just my opinion but 'the real deal' is to remove the secondary 'flies [...]install the optional O2 sensor and mixture control module that piggy- back's onto the PC and make a truly correct air / fuel map for your bike.

+1.  Hands-down, THAT is the best and most correct option.  It is a shame the bike doesn't come that way (with an O2 sensor, and maybe even an air mass/flow sensor).  But it is a lot of added expense and installation stuff.

An ECU re-flash can only approach an actual 'flies removal and so IMO is not the equal of simply removing the 'flies in the first place. [...] A re-flashed ECU may get close to that condition but will not yield secondary 'flies that are open 100% of the time.

That is not the default of the Guhl flash, but you CAN request the flies to be opened almost immediately if you choose to and he will flash it that way.  HOWEVER, there is a slight advantage of keeping the flies opening a little delayed on low throttle to keep a little more tameness.  Again, everyone will have their own opinion, but it is interesting that Guhl's opinion is to keep a little flies at the start... and I do trust he knows what he is doing and choosing the best option for the most applications/people.

[gPink]

Not completely true.  On the 2nd gen, the ECO mode is retained, and that is a completely separate map.  Of course, the USER can't just change either map  to something else without going through the whole flash procedure (and I am not sure Guhl will even offer the option to flash a custom map or even change the ECO map).  For those not wanting to make other major performance changes (full exhaust, tb, intakes, etc), there should be little need for additional maps, however.

Yes true. You can store two maps on the pcV and use a simple I/O toggle switch to change between the two.