Author Topic: A thread about nothing at all....  (Read 671770 times)

Offline just gone

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2880 on: November 26, 2017, 03:49:07 PM »
Are the holes round or flat?

It's all relative, relatively speaking.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2881 on: November 26, 2017, 04:58:13 PM »
The question does not apply.

A black hole has no external size yet is infinitely large inside. And it is not a hole, it is a 'singularity', occupying only one point in space. So we have a point that is infinitely large and yet has no size at all. And that is the end of the easy part; it gets more complicated where those two things meet, which we call the 'event horizon'. So 'round' does not apply because we are missing three dimensions and 'flat' does not apply because we are still missing two dimensions.

But I think it is important to point out that the line I quoted from Philipp von Jolly was not just one individual's folly, it was the commonly held belief at the time. It was honestly believed that physics as was known at the time, what we now call conventional or Newtonian physics, was very simple, easily understood and nothing of any importance was not already discovered or explained. But then an odd thing happened that caused the physics community a little concern but they ended up explaining that one away too though it was not quite so neat and tidy as it had been.

Brian

Are the holes round or flat?
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2882 on: November 26, 2017, 05:50:06 PM »
So not only was this von Jolly fella wrong about physics he had no basic understanding of holes. It's a good thing he had a government job or he probably couldn't have found work.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2883 on: November 26, 2017, 06:06:19 PM »
Yeah, that is probably right. But remember, the "von" in his name indicates nobility and a royal title....  and he held the professorial position once held by Georg Simon Ohm and had Max Planck as a student. I suspect he was not actually 'on the dole'.

:-)

Brian

So not only was this von Jolly fella wrong about physics he had no basic understanding of holes. It's a good thing he had a government job or he probably couldn't have found work.
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2884 on: November 26, 2017, 06:16:20 PM »
 :)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2885 on: December 02, 2017, 12:02:43 AM »
This little girl's dad is in the middle of installing a Rostra onto a C-14 when mom asked him to help get her ready for daycare.....



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Brian
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Offline Rhino

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2886 on: December 04, 2017, 07:44:12 AM »
 :rotflmao: zip ties... is there anything they can't do?

This little girl's dad is in the middle of installing a Rostra onto a C-14 when mom asked him to help get her ready for daycare.....



The 2018 Harley BadAzz rider.....



Brian

Offline Eupher

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2887 on: December 06, 2017, 11:29:12 AM »
Bought a house about 2 months ago.

An all-electric house (save for the range and 2 fireplaces).  :yikes:

Next stop, getting quotes for a 20kW standby generator. Looks like the Kohler guy gets the nod.

And the price.  :yikes: :yikes:

I try to do the more simplistic electrical work, but this is one I ain't touching. And those guys get paid lots and lots of $$$$$$$$$$$.

Well, I can't take it with me, as the saying goes.
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2888 on: December 06, 2017, 12:17:41 PM »
Do you need 20kw?

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2889 on: December 06, 2017, 12:20:09 PM »
We all need more power, Gary.  20Kw is minimal as far as I'm concerned if you want to run most of the house like heating/cooling, fridge, freezer, water heater, well pump, rail gun...
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2890 on: December 06, 2017, 02:19:48 PM »
 Thanks. I'm not familiar with stationary generators.

Offline tweeter55

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2891 on: December 06, 2017, 03:34:14 PM »
The drawback (if there is one) with stationary generators is you have to size it so it will handle whatever loads you may have on in your absence. All electric means electric heat which may or may not be on at the time. If in the country, there's a well pump possibly. Central air in the summer. Lots of things to think about. With my smaller (and less expensive) portable generator, I can shut the breakers off to all but critical loads (furnace, lights, of course the TV) and run the heavier ones individually as the need arises. Of course I have to drag it out of the garage & plug it in, not so with Jim's setup.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2892 on: December 06, 2017, 04:06:18 PM »
Bought a house about 2 months ago.

An all-electric house (save for the range and 2 fireplaces).  :yikes:

Next stop, getting quotes for a 20kW standby generator. Looks like the Kohler guy gets the nod.

And the price.  :yikes: :yikes:

I try to do the more simplistic electrical work, but this is one I ain't touching. And those guys get paid lots and lots of $$$$$$$$$$$.

Well, I can't take it with me, as the saying goes.

I determined that a 10KW generator is probably more reasonable for a medium or small house- assuming you don't have to run EVERYTHING at the same time.  But it will vary with what appliances and such.

In any case, the price of such a generator, on the open market, is about $2000 to $2500 *delivered*.  I know this, because even Costo was selling them for that.  But when I tried to find someone to INSTALL such a device, they either won't install a generator bought on the open market, or they give an INSANE quote like $6,000 (including the generator).  Now that is a quote for my SPECIFIC application, in which I ALREADY have a concrete pad.  I have the gas meter RIGHT NEXT to the spot.  And I have the main electric panel also RIGHT NEXT to that spot.  I am very good with electrical wiring and plumbing and performed a lot of such work in the past, but I would avoid such a job at this point in my life.  I estimate it would take 1 hour to unpack/place/setup the generator and later test it, 1 hour to drill a single hole in the wall to run the wiring and mount and connect the transfer panel and controls, less than 1 hour to rewire the mains in the main panel to the transfer panel, and 1 hour to plumb and test the gas and unit.  That is no more than 4 hours of labor... for $3,500 to $4,000???!!!  $1,000 per hour of labor?

Needless to say, I still have no generator because I refuse to put up with such nonsense.  I would gladly pay $1,000 for the installation.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2893 on: December 06, 2017, 04:31:06 PM »
Yes, that is one drawback but there are others: an automatic, stand-by generator needs a dedicated main breaker panel and has to be maintained / serviced if one really expects it to truly 'stand by'.

I too go with a portable 5K generator and find it is the best solution for me. It is just a gasoline, portable generator, about $600 new, and it sits in my garage and is wired into the garage sub- panel. So, when power fails I just open the main breakers on the house, start the generator (by hand- no electric start on it) and fuel it as needed, leaving it running inside a closed, detached garage for as long as power is down. It will run the whole house quite comfortably IF one is sane about it: no A/C unless a small room unit. It will run the boiler, refrigerator, freezer and all small appliances, all lights we want to use, and TV's, cable boxes, computers. It will run ONE burner on the electric stove OR one high wattage heating device at a time: coffee maker, toaster oven, microwave, etc. So we can live comfortably but have to be a little bit aware of what we are doing and be reasonable.

I am not willing to 1) spend the money on a stand- by generator and the associated costs (wiring panel, lockouts, etc.) 2) do the annual maintenance to make sure it works (would rather tinker with the portable generator if / when it needs it or when I need it) 3) spend the money to arrange for sufficient fuel, either diesel or propane (no natural gas available here) and if propane, 4) not willing to try and maintain the large fuel tank on the property filled as the days tick off. It is a very significant investment and commitment installing and maintaining a true stand- by generator and the benefits are just not worth it to me.

Brian

The drawback (if there is one) with stationary generators is you have to size it so it will handle whatever loads you may have on in your absence. All electric means electric heat which may or may not be on at the time. If in the country, there's a well pump possibly. Central air in the summer. Lots of things to think about. With my smaller (and less expensive) portable generator, I can shut the breakers off to all but critical loads (furnace, lights, of course the TV) and run the heavier ones individually as the need arises. Of course I have to drag it out of the garage & plug it in, not so with Jim's setup.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline maxtog

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2894 on: December 06, 2017, 05:30:36 PM »
I too go with a portable 5K generator and find it is the best solution for me. It is just a gasoline, portable generator, about $600 new, and it sits in my garage and is wired into the garage sub- panel. So, when power fails I just open the main breakers on the house, start the generator (by hand- no electric start on it) and fuel it as needed, leaving it running inside a closed, detached garage for as long as power is down. It will run the whole house quite comfortably IF one is sane about it: no A/C unless a small room unit. It will run the boiler, refrigerator, freezer and all small appliances, all lights we want to use, and TV's, cable boxes, computers. It will run ONE burner on the electric stove OR one high wattage heating device at a time: coffee maker, toaster oven, microwave, etc. So we can live comfortably but have to be a little bit aware of what we are doing and be reasonable.

I do almost the exact same thing, but with a more expensive 7kW John Deere portable gas generator, inside an attached garage, but I plumed the exhaust to the outside( using double-walled pipe and insulated with fiberglass) and with sheet metal on the drywall it sits next to.  I turn of the main and back-feed the house using a large 220 volt cable/outlet.  It will run even the central A/C and frig, lighting (all LED now), and all my electronics (huge TV, DVR, computer, modems, routers, mega stereo, phones; all also on UPS).  But I have to be selective about what else is run.  It will only run 8 hours before needing more gas, only holds 10 gal, is a pain to connect/disconnect, makes a ton of noise and heat, I have to leave the garage door at least partially open, run a huge fan on it, and I never know when the power is back on, so that is a pain.  Also don't trust it running when I am asleep or away.  Overall, it works, but it is very inconvenient.  I would gladly upgrade to an automatic 10K natural gas one if I could get a reasonable price.
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2895 on: December 06, 2017, 10:57:23 PM »
Use an auto transfer switch with only the items wired to it that the generator is capable of running.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2896 on: December 07, 2017, 03:10:32 AM »
Yes, and in almost all cases, that involves a major sized sub- panel and a major re- wiring of both the main breaker panel (where all those items you want the generator to power are already located) and of course a complete re- wiring of the sub- panel.

Again, a true stand- by generator is expensive, complex and they can work very well indeed. But I am not willing to pay for it and the price difference is huge; there is a motorcycle in the differences in price of a medium sized portable generator that will <meet> needs and provide true comfort (in my opinion of course) and a full- blown, automatic, back- up generator that will basically mimic the grid's power delivery.

By the way, I lost power this fall for 3 days. The last time I lost power before that was nine years ago for something like five days. Calculate the amount a true stand- by generator, and associated fuel storage and maintenance costs would cost for those 8 days of no grid power over nine years vs. the $600 or $700 for a portable generator costs and I think anyone would be amazed. And the last time I lost power before the time nine years ago was almost twenty years ago; add that in and the annual costs of owning and maintaining a stand- by generator are not only staggering, they become, in my opinion, ridiculous. Now if I was in an area that lost power multiple times per year, such as the far north of New England for instance, the entire situation would be extremely different. In fact I know a gentleman on the Canadian border in VT that lost power for 28 days: it was costing him $55 / day to run multiple generators and he had nine (9!!!) extension cords running into the house to spread generator power around. And he suffers a fair amount of power outages; in his place, a diesel powered stand- by generator with, say, (2) 275 gallon fuel tanks would not be ridiculous or even overkill.

I think of it like this: It would be fantastic to have a JD 790 D, brand new, standing by just in case a strong wind blows over a large tree. That machine would be extremely handy to move the tree, help cut it up, then carry the pieces to wherever they would be out of the way. Much nicer than having to wait on a tree service. But that is a $150,000 machine so that <relatively small> bit of convenience is going to cost dearly. Now if you live on a far, a big backhoe gets weekly and often daily work and it not a luxury but a regular 'tool' for general purpose, useful and needed work.

Brian

Use an auto transfer switch with only the items wired to it that the generator is capable of running.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Conrad

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2897 on: December 07, 2017, 04:00:30 AM »
I too have a portable generator, it's an Ohman 5k. It's attached to my very portable motor home.  :)

If needed I can run an extension cord to the house. So far no need.
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Offline gPink

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2898 on: December 07, 2017, 04:42:37 AM »
Does that make it a 300 hp portable generator?  :)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: A thread about nothing at all....
« Reply #2899 on: December 07, 2017, 05:22:37 AM »
Yeah, the infamous 'suicide cord'. Looks like a regular electrical cord with plug ends except..... both ends are male (know in some circles as the 'San Francisco' version- yep, I know, politically incorrect but still struck me as funny. Mods do whatever ya' gotta' do to make this post..... appropriate, and then throw me out of the U.S. Senate too boot  :rotflmao: )

I was using two 115 VAC cords, plugged into my generator (each one picks one leg of 230 VAC power so together they provide 230 Volt power to the house) and then wired them into a pair of breakers. It worked fine of course but took a little time to set up, left the breaker panel open and was just not 'slick'. So I finally ordered a 4 prong (Boys!) rotary locking plug (male) for the generator, and a three prong (male) whip normaly used to power an electric stove or range. My welder is set up for 230 VAC, single phase, 70 amp. so all I now have to do it plug in the suicide cord and back- feed teh breaker panel in the garage, which in turn will back- feed the main breaker panel in the house. All fine and well, as long as one remembers that when one end of that thing is plugged in, the other end is 'live' or hot and will make you sorry if you touch it, drop it on anything conductive, etc. It is kind of like a sword with no handle: it may be  a fine tool but it does have a little bit to it.

Getting way back ONTOPIC, which is nothing of course, the normal practice in the electrical / electronic world is to put the spring loaded part of any electrical connection on the disposable part of the device. Now the good Thomas Edison tried to do this very thing and put the spring loaded connectors into the cord, rather than the wall, so when they wore out, one simply replaced the cord, not part of the house. Great idea, except for the part where he would have had a pair of brass prongs sticking out of the walls all over the house and the cords would be female, not male. Yikes! But then again, he envisioned something like 25 volts DC powering up residences so it is kinda' like two cases of moronity cancelling each other out.  At any rate, smarter people prevailed, on both fronts, and now electricity is safely lurking INSIDE outlets in all instances and you have to stick something in there (Easy Boys!) to 'get it'. And of course we use the correct type of power, AC and at much higher and far more sane voltages than ole' Tom could conceive of.

Trivia: Edison was on such a dedicated mission to prevent AC from being used as electrical power anywhere in the US, he called it the "killing current" and personally made the world's first motion picture (using moving frame film, which he also invented) to film an unruly circus elephant being electrocuted to death as an example of just how bad AC really is. The film still exists and is fairly gruesome, just as one would think; the elephant is standing there, with cables attached to both front feet, there is a large stream of smoke and the magnificent pachyderm just falls over.

Brian

I too have a portable generator, it's an Ohman 5k. It's attached to my very portable motor home.  :)

If needed I can run an extension cord to the house. So far no need.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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