Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Conrad on November 19, 2014, 03:37:36 PM
-
I took care of the front and rear brake bleeding no problem. Not so the clutch!
After hooking up my Motion Pro brake bleeder and then sucking out the old fluid from the clutch reservoir, being careful to leave a lil in the bottom, I refilled it and opened the lower bleed valve. I pumped the clutch lever and got a ton of air out of the bleeder. That's weird because my clutch was working perfectly before I stated. Now I can't get the dammed thing to pump up! I get a bunch of air coming out and a lil fluid. I closed the valve and tried the top bleeder. Lot of air but finally I got a clear stream. Back down to the lower bleeder. More air. I keep pumping the lever and adding fluid. Lots of air bubbles but it never runs clear. Back to the top then the bottom again.
:censored:
It won't pump up and no matter what I do there's air. Where the :censored: is all that air coming from?
Help!
This worked perfectly the last time I did it.
-
I had the same problem even with a MityVac. Took about an hour messing with it with the MityVac and trying the old fashion method before it started coming out clear. No idea why the clutch is such a PIA. Why is it any different then the brakes? Part of the problem with the MityVac is that it sucked some air around the threads of the bleeder screw. Was thinking that next time to pull the bleeder all the way, teflon tape it and put it back in. The other thing I might try is make a homemade pressure bleeding system just for that stinking clutch.
-
Thanks Rhino.
Damn, I've been messing with this thing for two hours in my COLD garage. I guess I'll have to break down and buy a MityVac and mess with it some more.
-
Just had a similar problem. Went through all the motions. Ended up holding the mityvac hose right on top of the fluid hole over the piston and pumped the lever while sucking. Seem to clear the problem and got lever pressure back. must have got a particle of dirt in the mechanism.
-
Yeah, this bike is a gigantic PITA to bleed the hydraulics. Even when you think you did a great job, power bleeding the same system will make that system feel much firmer (Easy Boys!) and crisp.
You can power bleed using a hand- held pressure device; the MityVac systems that produce pressure as well as vacuum. I did it several times successfully but it is just too risky building up enough pressure (and it takes like 15 PSI) with a tapered rubber nozzle jammed into (Easy!) the drain on the reservoirs. It takes three hands really and if any fitting, hose or the end gets loose while under pressure, there will be brake fluid for quite a few feet in all directions and that stuff eats paint and most plastics.
The powered vacuum systems work best and easiest on these bikes. Not cheap but not ridiculously expensive either. And it will save the nastiest words you know for a different project later on.... like adjusting the valves.
Brian
I took care of the front and rear brake bleeding no problem. Not so the clutch!
After hooking up my Motion Pro brake bleeder and then sucking out the old fluid from the clutch reservoir, being careful to leave a lil in the bottom, I refilled it and opened the lower bleed valve. I pumped the clutch lever and got a ton of air out of the bleeder. That's weird because my clutch was working perfectly before I stated. Now I can't get the dammed thing to pump up! I get a bunch of air coming out and a lil fluid. I closed the valve and tried the top bleeder. Lot of air but finally I got a clear stream. Back down to the lower bleeder. More air. I keep pumping the lever and adding fluid. Lots of air bubbles but it never runs clear. Back to the top then the bottom again.
:censored:
It won't pump up and no matter what I do there's air. Where the :censored: is all that air coming from?
Help!
This worked perfectly the last time I did it.
-
For whatever it is worth Conrad- I have two hand- pumped brake bleeding devices (one MityVac and the other an all metal type of another brand) and neither one worked worth dirt on my C-14. The bleeders leak too much at the threads to maintain a vacuum with those things. The air aspirates types do the trick but you need an air compressor to use them.
Brian
Thanks Rhino.
Damn, I've been messing with this thing for two hours in my COLD garage. I guess I'll have to break down and buy a MityVac and mess with it some more.
-
For whatever it is worth Conrad- I have two hand- pumped brake bleeding devices (one MityVac and the other an all metal type of another brand) and neither one worked worth dirt on my C-14. The bleeders leak too much at the threads to maintain a vacuum with those things. The air aspirates types do the trick but you need an air compressor to use them.
Brian
Exactly! For some reason I didn't have much of a problem on the brakes but PITA on the clutch. That's why I was thinking of trying teflon tape. Not sure if brake fluid will eat it up or not but I only need it to last long enough to bleed it.
-
Like I said, the brakes where a snap, no problemo and no swearing what so ever. I'm pretty sure that my swearing at the clutch is still reverberating in the garage. ..
Two years ago when I did this last I had ZERO problems.
I can understand the air leaking past the threads of the bleeder using a vacuum but where is all the air coming from using the Motion Pro valve? It's under pressure right? So if there was a leak at the threads shouldn't there be fluid running out? I can't get the dammed lever to pump up at all now. One time it did pump up after I closed the valve but when I opened it to make sure that all the air was out, I got more bubbles and then it wouldn't pump up again! >:(
-
Good thing we didn't do it at the same time otherwise the swearing could meet in the middle and reinforce one another. Add a 3rd party and it could create the perfect storm.
-
Just had a similar problem. Went through all the motions. Ended up holding the mityvac hose right on top of the fluid hole over the piston and pumped the lever while sucking. Seem to clear the problem and got lever pressure back. must have got a particle of dirt in the mechanism.
Sucking what? :rotflmao:
Like I said, the brakes where a snap, no problemo and no swearing what so ever. I'm pretty sure that my swearing at the clutch is still reverberating in the garage. ..
Two years ago when I did this last I had ZERO problems.
I can understand the air leaking past the threads of the bleeder using a vacuum but where is all the air coming from using the Motion Pro valve? It's under pressure right? So if there was a leak at the threads shouldn't there be fluid running out? I can't get the dammed lever to pump up at all now. One time it did pump up after I closed the valve but when I opened it to make sure that all the air was out, I got more bubbles and then it wouldn't pump up again! >:(
Well, you have all winter to figure it out... ;D
-
coulda been the mityvac or...shrubbery 8)
-
I'll be sucking on a martini in a few minutes...
-
When the master, calipers and brake line were changed on my other bike, bleeding them out was very difficult. Someone on another forum recommended that I hook small hoses up to the bleeders and raise them up to an elevated bucket. By doing this, I was able to work the micro bubbles out and not have to worry about opening/closing the bleeder 10,000 times. It worked like a charm.
-
On a side note: nope, brake fluid will not attack Teflon. Nor will any acid, or base, or heat or any catalyst that I am aware of. One of the really cool things about Teflon, and there are quite a few cool aspects to the stuff, is that it is almost impossible to find anything to attack it.
Which begs the question: what do you use to glue the world's most slippery substance that cannot be attacked by any chemical or chemical combination (that one could use in, say, a garage)? Hmmmmmm
Back to the bleeding: best of luck to all of you folks but I was not successful in finding anything that worked reliably and well to bleed the hydraulics on a C-14. Then again, I give up easily which is why they call me Mary Jane Tinklepants. But in the end, the air powered MityVac ended all problems for all time and turned a lousy, very inconsistent job into one that is quick, easy and works consistently excellently.
Brian
Exactly! For some reason I didn't have much of a problem on the brakes but PITA on the clutch. That's why I was thinking of trying teflon tape. Not sure if brake fluid will eat it up or not but I only need it to last long enough to bleed it.
-
guess it is maybe cos i am an old school geezer, but using speed bleeders on each orifice, both brakes and clutch, made the whole job easy for me. takes longer than a pump, but works fantastic on my baby. and don't need two or three people to do it!
just sayin
-
When the master, calipers and brake line were changed on my other bike, bleeding them out was very difficult. Someone on another forum recommended that I hook small hoses up to the bleeders and raise them up to an elevated bucket. By doing this, I was able to work the micro bubbles out and not have to worry about opening/closing the bleeder 10,000 times. It worked like a charm.
guess it is maybe cos i am an old school geezer, but using speed bleeders on each orifice, both brakes and clutch, made the whole job easy for me. takes longer than a pump, but works fantastic on my baby. and don't need two or three people to do it!
just sayin
Thanks for the tips you two but this isn't the first time that I've done the clutch and the brakes on my C14. I did it two years ago for the first time using the exact same method that I'm using now and it worked perfectly. Well, maybe not perfectly as I did get some air bubbles while doing the clutch but nothing like I'm getting now.
What method is that you ask?
Starting with this.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3150lhJAaVL.jpg)
Then moving on to this.
[smg id=658]
[smg id=659]
As I said in my first post. I already did the front and rear brakes using this method and it worked just as it should.
I'm picking up a MityVac today and giving it another go.
-
The powered vacuum systems work best and easiest on these bikes. Not cheap but not ridiculously expensive either. And it will save the nastiest words you know for a different project later on.... like adjusting the valves.
Brian
I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I use a home made vacuum system that uses compressed air. I use a glass Mason jar with bulkhead fittings and an SMC vacuum ejector (for 1/4" tubing iirc). For my suction line(s)...I have a single line for things like clutch bleeding, or I simply plug-in a tee so I can bleed both front calipers together or bleed both bleeder screws on a single rear caliper (many under-slung rear calipers have two bleeder screws).
I can bleed and refill a complete front braking system or clutch, etc in only a few minutes. One man job, no drama, no mess. However, even home made, it did cost me about $100 worth of parts/fittings/tubing, and you DO need compressed air to run it, but it does work very well.
I'll usually cut a piece of cardboard to fit snugly over a brake or clutch master cyl (if they're the cast aluminum ones, and not the round plastic bottles like on most sport-bikes). The cardboard is a splash guard. I can turn the vacuum on very slowly, and then just pour new brake fluid in the reservoir.
Now I understand that most people don't want to spend $100 bucks on stuff/parts for a powered vacuum system, but if you hate doing it as much as I did, it might be worth it...lol.
What I did was basically build a homegrown version of this:
http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM (http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM)
Rem
-
Ha...149.50 USD....http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM (http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM)
Need pics of the frankenvac :)
-
I used this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1416606595&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1416606595&sr=1-1)
-
Ha...149.50 USD....http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM (http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM)
Need pics of the frankenvac :)
Haha...hey, mine is a bit crude, but it's all business and works every time...lol.
I HATED bleeding brakes until I made this thing. Now, I can do a complete flush and fill job on front brakes, rear brakes, and clutch in about 45 minutes...no fuss, no mess. I don't have to pump the lever or pedal.
The plastic tee looking device on top of the jar is a vacuum ejector. Apply compressed air, and it creates vacuum on the bottom port...in this case, in the jar. The black valve with blue knob is a quarter turn valve, and also serves as my flow control. The other adjuster hanging beside the jar is a proper flow control, but it is not required...I just never bothered to remove it. The bare hose coming out of the jar is my vacuum line. If I'm doing front brakes, I simply pop on a tee and then have two lines and apply vacuum to both calipers at the same time.
I don't think it was actually $100...probably more like $70-$75. I only found out later that the flow control wasn't required...SMC stuff is expensive, so it adds up quick. The vacuum nozzle itself is likely $40 bucks alone. I think without the flow control, you could make it for $50 bucks.
Pepper rings anyone?...lol.
Rem 8)
-
One thought... simple physics. Air rises, so give it somewhere to rise to. JMO.
-
Rem how much air pressure are you running?
-
One other thought- simple physics #2: surface tension. The tube diameter is too small (the internal ports) to all air bubbles to pass with such low pressure (read: without increasing the pressure greatly either by gravity or some type of pump).
That is why mercury gets stuck in little clots (technical word) in a thermometer tube and the nurse / technician has to whip it rapidly back and forth to create enough centripetal force to overcome the surface tension of the mercury against the tube walls. For those of you old enough to remember mercury thermometers.... although the physics has not changed :-)
Simple physics [fun fact to know and tell]: depending on the amount of wall creep and surface tension of a given fluid and the static pressure, the top shape of the fluid changes. That is called the meniscus and it goes both ways (Easy Boys!), convex and concave. Water makes a convex meniscus, which is why we can fill a glass with more water than it holds and the top of the water level is actually above the rim of the glass. Mercury makes a negative meniscus but when you fill a drinking glass full of the stuff to check, the environmental police will arrest you and take you away so now you have to just take my word for it.
Brian
One thought... simple physics. Air rises, so give it somewhere to rise to. JMO.
-
Yeah, a vacuum aspirator. And by the way.... Thief! Thief! You stole Bernoulli's principle! :-)
I bought the same MityVac you give a link too but without the filler bottle for the reservoir. If you hunt around a bit they can be had for just under $100 (US).
And yep, they do make what is a tough- to- impossible job (ask Conrad :-) ) job effortless and quick. Great for changing oil in small Honda motors too 'cause you can just stick a tube down the crankcase (Easy Boys!) and suck the oil out (I am not telling you again!). Honda oil drains end up barfing oil all over the machine they ride in / on in my experience.
Brian
I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I use a home made vacuum system that uses compressed air. I use a glass Mason jar with bulkhead fittings and an SMC vacuum ejector (for 1/4" tubing iirc). For my suction line(s)...I have a single line for things like clutch bleeding, or I simply plug-in a tee so I can bleed both front calipers together or bleed both bleeder screws on a single rear caliper (many under-slung rear calipers have two bleeder screws).
I can bleed and refill a complete front braking system or clutch, etc in only a few minutes. One man job, no drama, no mess. However, even home made, it did cost me about $100 worth of parts/fittings/tubing, and you DO need compressed air to run it, but it does work very well.
I'll usually cut a piece of cardboard to fit snugly over a brake or clutch master cyl (if they're the cast aluminum ones, and not the round plastic bottles like on most sport-bikes). The cardboard is a splash guard. I can turn the vacuum on very slowly, and then just pour new brake fluid in the reservoir.
Now I understand that most people don't want to spend $100 bucks on stuff/parts for a powered vacuum system, but if you hate doing it as much as I did, it might be worth it...lol.
What I did was basically build a homegrown version of this:
http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM (http://www.amazon.ca/Mityvac-MV6835-Vacuum-Brake-Bleeding/dp/B0015POUXM)
Rem
-
One thought... simple physics. Air rises, so give it somewhere to rise to. JMO.
I tired turning the bike upside down but I was having a hard time filling the clutch reservoir. ;)
I picked up a MityVac yesterday locally (for even less than Amazon, $33). I'll be giving it another go sometime this weekend.
-
I see that my comment about physics has been shot down with a response that is backed my far superior education than mine. However, I will say, that the MICRO bubbles that I seen rise in the small tubes that I attached to my bleeders did allow the fluid and air to pass. I agree with what Brian has written, but I can also say that when I did this process, I was finally able to get my brakes to work. Mityvacs are nice, but I didnt have any results using mine. Good luck with your aggravation!
-
I see that my comment about physics has been shot down with a response that is backed my far superior education than mine. However, I will say, that the MICRO bubbles that I seen rise in the small tubes that I attached to my bleeders did allow the fluid and air to pass. I agree with what Brian has written, but I can also say that when I did this process, I was finally able to get my brakes to work. Mityvacs are nice, but I didnt have any results using mine. Good luck with your aggravation!
Thanks for your suggestions, Nicole. My brakes are done and without drama. The bubbles that I'm seeing while trying to get the clutch bled are WAY larger than microbubbles. I'd be happy with those if that's all I had.
-
I use a pneumatic bleed from HF. cost around 30.00, It's made bleeding brakes a total breeze. I've done 4 c-14's by myself, clutch and brakes, full flushes, in just minutes. Cheap and 100% effective. Steve
http://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html)
-
Oh I do not know that my education is better than yours, perhaps different but not better- in fact, there is no doubt that you know many things that I do not- you can probably make one 'o dem sheep shank knots.
The method you used actually increased the pressure on the brake fluid by raising the reservoir level.
My irritation with the C-14 hydraulics actually peaked when I removed and cleaned the front calipers the first time. I just could not get the system to fill with fluid and finally put the issue to bed with an air powered MityVac power bleeder. And I can say with all honesty that while it was expensive (compared to 'pump and bleed' bleeding methods) it works fantastically well and I have used it for years now. Better than barbiturates at relieving annoyance IMO! ;D
Brian
I see that my comment about physics has been shot down with a response that is backed my far superior education than mine. However, I will say, that the MICRO bubbles that I seen rise in the small tubes that I attached to my bleeders did allow the fluid and air to pass. I agree with what Brian has written, but I can also say that when I did this process, I was finally able to get my brakes to work. Mityvacs are nice, but I didnt have any results using mine. Good luck with your aggravation!
-
Conrad, do we have clutch?
-
I'm not sure as he's been working on his wood....so he says. ::) :rotflmao:
-
Wonder if he's got blisters.
-
I should say so if he's been at it all weekend.
-
Could be walking funny too.
-
He best chime in soon or this is going to get worse... :rotflmao:
-
Don't they make a pill for wood working problems?
-
He is probably out looking for a job..... to pay for the biggest, shiniest and best automatic brake bleeding device known to man.
:rotflmao:
Brian
He best chime in soon or this is going to get worse... :rotflmao:
-
I'm not sure as he's been working on his wood....so he says. ::) :rotflmao:
Although I do have MASSIVE wood, I've finished with that, for now. ;)
Conrad, do we have clutch?
Why yes, yes we do have clutch! :)
I ended up using the MityVac and the Motion Pro bleeder together. I was able to evacuate (I am NOT gonna say that I sucked the air out to this crowd) the air from the bottom bleeder with the MityVac but couldn't get any out from the top bleeder. I then hooked the MP bleeder to the top point and got a lil more air out that way then back to the bottom with the MP bleeder to get the rest of the air removed. I now have a very firm clutch lever.
Thanks for the help yous guys and gal. :thumbs:
-
And thank you for the entertainment value that this has provided. :thumbs:
I just now realized that there is another method you might have tried. Using a syringe to push fluid up from the slave cylinder into the master. I have one of those devices that I purchased just in case I needed it but haven't yet.
-
The problem with that is that the threads of the bleeder itself leak. Not a lot but enough to make a mess. And it means you have to pump a fair amount of fluid at the system because most of it leaks by the bleeder instead of going through the system. And yep, Teflon tapes works to a degree but not 100%, at least every time I tried it.
Brian
And thank you for the entertainment value that this has provided. :thumbs:
I just now realized that there is another method you might have tried. Using a syringe to push fluid up from the slave cylinder into the master. I have one of those devices that I purchased just in case I needed it but haven't yet.
-
I had this same problem today and it's still not right doing it by hand. Guess I'll have to get a mighty-vac. Never had so much trouble changing the clutch fluid on a bike.
-
I personally never use anything other than manual bleeding on motorcycles. And so far, can do that all by myself, even on the BMWs with servo brakes and 11 valves to bleed :o. There's so little fluid in the reservoirs than with vacuum, you start gulping air with fluid level in the middle ('tornado' effect). And I've never used pressure bleeders, and never will. I know they don't fit on motorcycles, but on cars, above the master cylinder, the system is not designed to be pressurized. I use vacuum on all my cars, and never an issue either... but I leave plenty of fluid to avoid sucking air. With ABS brakes, sucking air almost always requires a trip to the dealer to cycle the pump(s) while bleeding. Bleeding manually correctly, you just can't screw up anything, as you're pushing all fluid out of the lines. Just remember to close the valve right before bottoming out the master cylinders, and you'll be successful every time. And in case you introduced air into the system, remember Kawasaki was nice enough to give us bleeders for the master cylinders; use them :). Just bought the bike, so I'm a year away to do this, but can't imagine being any different than my other bikes. Good luck.
-
I personally never use anything other than manual bleeding on motorcycles. And so far, can do that all by myself, even on the BMWs with servo brakes and 11 valves to bleed :o. There's so little fluid in the reservoirs than with vacuum, you start gulping air with fluid level in the middle ('tornado' effect). And I've never used pressure bleeders, and never will. I know they don't fit on motorcycles, but on cars, above the master cylinder, the system is not designed to be pressurized. I use vacuum on all my cars, and never an issue either... but I leave plenty of fluid to avoid sucking air. With ABS brakes, sucking air almost always requires a trip to the dealer to cycle the pump(s) while bleeding. Bleeding manually correctly, you just can't screw up anything, as you're pushing all fluid out of the lines. Just remember to close the valve right before bottoming out the master cylinders, and you'll be successful every time. And in case you introduced air into the system, remember Kawasaki was nice enough to give us bleeders for the master cylinders; use them :). Just bought the bike, so I'm a year away to do this, but can't imagine being any different than my other bikes. Good luck.
This is the way I've always done brake bleeding, to great success, but not this time with the C14 clutch. It's stupid weird/difficult. Try bleeding your C14 clutch just for fun and let us know how it goes. :)
-
I personally never use anything other than manual bleeding on motorcycles. And so far, can do that all by myself, even on the BMWs with servo brakes and 11 valves to bleed :o. There's so little fluid in the reservoirs than with vacuum, you start gulping air with fluid level in the middle ('tornado' effect). And I've never used pressure bleeders, and never will. I know they don't fit on motorcycles, but on cars, above the master cylinder, the system is not designed to be pressurized. I use vacuum on all my cars, and never an issue either... but I leave plenty of fluid to avoid sucking air. With ABS brakes, sucking air almost always requires a trip to the dealer to cycle the pump(s) while bleeding. Bleeding manually correctly, you just can't screw up anything, as you're pushing all fluid out of the lines. Just remember to close the valve right before bottoming out the master cylinders, and you'll be successful every time. And in case you introduced air into the system, remember Kawasaki was nice enough to give us bleeders for the master cylinders; use them :). Just bought the bike, so I'm a year away to do this, but can't imagine being any different than my other bikes. Good luck.
That all sounds well and good and the first time that I bled the clutch I had ZERO problems and the job was done in 10 mins using the Motion Pro valve. I followed the exact same procedure the next time and it went sideways, as you can read above. Somehow air got into the system obviously but I don't know how. The next time I'll have to keep a VERY close eye on what I'm doing cuz I don't want to go through that crap again.
-
That all sounds well and good and the first time that I bled the clutch I had ZERO problems and the job was done in 10 mins using the Motion Pro valve. I followed the exact same procedure the next time and it went sideways, as you can read above. Somehow air got into the system obviously but I don't know how. The next time I'll have to keep a VERY close eye on what I'm doing cuz I don't want to go through that crap again.
If you don't get all the micro-bubbles out, the clutch will start to engage on different spots on the lever after riding and parking I have found. A real PITA if the reservoir gets any air during servicing.
-
I just used an EZE Bleeder and now the clutch is fine. I'm not touching it ever again... >:(
-
I'm seeking some pointers on this, as the dealer wants over $200 to change the brake and clutch fluids on my 2012 C14, and there's no way I can justify paying that much for what has to be a fairly simple job. That being said, I've never tried to tackle bleeding brakes or a clutch before. Any tips, pointers, or suggestions for how to do this?
I'd guess I need a small box-end wrench for the bleed points, some clear tubing (or a MityVac) and the aforementioned Dot-4 brake fluid. With the newer linked ABS on this bike though, I wasn't sure if there's anything else I need to do.
As for the clutch, it seems fairly straightforward, but I've never changed hydraulic clutch fluid before, so not sure if there's a specific technique, or if I should just crack the bleeder bolt, squeeze some out, pour fresh in, lather rinse repeat until no bubbles show.
Bike has just over 37k miles on it now. Planning on doing this work at 40k (so in about 2-3 weeks time.)
-
The Mityvac is very useful on our clutch line. I have read of people trying it manually and having problems getting the fluid to flow the entire length of the clutch line. I don't know if this is true, but I have read reports :). I have used the Mityvac on my brake and clutch line with no issues. So I guess the long winded moral of my advice is use some sort of powered device for the clutch line.
-
I've been reading about the problems with bleeding the clutch for years now. I can't say I've ever had a problem and I change the fluid every year. I don't like seeing the dark brown in my reservoir. I suck it out completely and bleed it out using a hand vac and finish it by pumping it by hand. Wrap teflon tape around the threads of the bleeders to stop the air from bleeding back into the system and change the teflon every time you change your fluid.
-
Successfully bled my brake fluid using a mityvac, even though I did empty the reservoir once and had to do the top bleed as well. ::)
However after reading this thread, I'm actually thinking of just removing the dirty fluid from the clutch top reservoir and replacing it without a full system bleed. Perhaps empty it half way, add more fluid then just remove as much dirt and old fluid as I can without letting it get too low. (http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif)
So, it's time for all you doom 'n' gloom types (and just cautious thinkers) to come out and tell me what I have to fear long term with that approach.
-
I am not following you there Marty. ??
Emptying the reservoir, then filling it up with fresh fluid and drawing the new fluid down through the system is the way I have always done hydraulic system flushes. ?? How else had you been doing it (Easy Boys!)?
Brian
Successfully bled my brake fluid using a mityvac, even though I did empty the reservoir once and had to do the top bleed as well. ::)
However after reading this thread, I'm actually thinking of just removing the dirty fluid from the clutch top reservoir and replacing it without a full system bleed. Perhaps empty it half way, add more fluid then just remove as much dirt and old fluid as I can without letting it get too low. (http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif)
So, it's time for all you doom 'n' gloom types (and just cautious thinkers) to come out and tell me what I have to fear long term with that approach.
-
I am not following you there Marty. ??
Emptying the reservoir, then filling it up with fresh fluid and drawing the new fluid down through the system is the way I have always done hydraulic system flushes. ?? How else had you been doing it (Easy Boys!)?
Brian
I'm pretty sure that what Marty means is that he's not going to bleed the clutch system but instead he's going to remove half of the old fluid from the reservoir and add new fluid. Then ride the bike that way for a bit and then do it again...
-
I'm pretty sure that what Marty means is that he's not going to bleed the clutch system but instead he's going to remove half of the old fluid from the reservoir and add new fluid. Then ride the bike that way for a bit and then do it again...
close..sort of..but repeat removal after fill then refill and close.
Emptying the reservoir, then filling it up with fresh fluid and drawing the new fluid down through the system is the way I have always done hydraulic system flushes. ??
Agreed, that's the best way. At least until you encounter problems with the clutch and then wish you hadn't done anything.
It seems that the brake fluid stays clean but simply ages and to some extent and absorbs moisture which can boil under heat and pressure (so I've read) so a full system bleed is desirable to avoid that.
The clutch hydraulic fluid on the other hand, seems to transport dirt from the bottom up into the reservoir (at least that's what the video says), so I was just going to remove the dirty fluid, replace it before getting to the bottom of the reservoir and remove more until it looked reasonably clean. Then just take my chances with the remainder of the fluid until such time as the clutch drags or quits releasing altogether, hoping that it would give me some warning, but if not, thinking that almost any auto shop (assuming a bike shop wasn't close by) could (for a price $, of course) help me out if I got stranded with out a clutch on the road with a fluid bleed. In other words, the clutch bleed seems to be more problematic than a brake bleed, yet much less catastrophic if it fails to function. Thought I'd also give all the naysayers a chance to unload on my silly thinking.
Probably will totally bleed it when ever I think I'll have a month or more of down time in case I have problems.
(to save all the "easy boys" I just replaced "suck out" with "remove".)
-
Successfully bled my brake fluid using a mityvac, even though I did empty the reservoir once and had to do the top bleed as well. ::)
However after reading this thread, I'm actually thinking of just removing the dirty fluid from the clutch top reservoir and replacing it without a full system bleed. Perhaps empty it half way, add more fluid then just remove as much dirt and old fluid as I can without letting it get too low. (http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif)
So, it's time for all you doom 'n' gloom types (and just cautious thinkers) to come out and tell me what I have to fear long term with that approach.
When I flush the brake or clutch lines on a bike I use a "sucker" and get all the old fluid out of the reservoir and then I wipe all the nasty gunk out of the bottom that collects. Then I fill it back up with clean fluid. After that I use my Mighty-Vac and suck out the old fluid from the lines and make sure that I keep the resrvoir topped off. After the fluid runs clean I top it off again and button it back up. Takes maybe 10-15 minutes.
-
I just use a turkey baster to get 3/4s out, then remove as much of the black flecks as I can, add clean fluid, commence bleeding. Knock on wood, that usually works fine for me. Clutch acted a bit wonky Saturday morning but it got better (normal action) during the day....thank goodness.
-
I just use a turkey baster to get 3/4s out, then remove as much of the black flecks as I can, add clean fluid, commence bleeding. Knock on wood, that usually works fine for me. Clutch acted a bit wonky Saturday morning but it got better (normal action) during the day....thank goodness.
+1 on the Turkey Baster!
-
Ah, I got you now- you are not flushing the system at all but rather just changing out the reservoir fluid. Let's see..... as the clutch hydraulics actually move a fair amount of fluid from slave to master (it would be politically incorrect to put an Easy Boys! after that line :yikes: ), the grunge and fines should work their way up into the reservoir, sort of, and I guess you could clean the system that way.... mostly. At least it would work a LOT better than that same method would work on brakes as the brake system does not really move any fluid, at least not in 'real time'.
Lowering the boiling point of the brake fluid is often sighted as a reason for changing the brake fluid but in my own personal opinion, a better reason is to remove the water saturated fluid so things do not corrode inside the hydraulic system. And these systems really do turn a white knuckle, 'I nearly ran out of bad words' job into a quick, simple, effortless (beyond turning the bleeder) part of normal maintenance.
All of that said, with new powered vacuum brake bleeders being below $30, there is really no longer any need to fear the <hydraulic> reaper on a C-14. Of course that assumes one has an air compressor or access to a friend with an air compressor. In your case Marty, just let me know and I will send you and envelope full of compressed air guaranteed to maintain internal (Easy Boys!) pressure for at least one year.
Brian
close..sort of..but repeat removal after fill then refill and close.
Agreed, that's the best way. At least until you encounter problems with the clutch and then wish you hadn't done anything.
It seems that the brake fluid stays clean but simply ages and to some extent and absorbs moisture which can boil under heat and pressure (so I've read) so a full system bleed is desirable to avoid that.
The clutch hydraulic fluid on the other hand, seems to transport dirt from the bottom up into the reservoir (at least that's what the video says), so I was just going to remove the dirty fluid, replace it before getting to the bottom of the reservoir and remove more until it looked reasonably clean. Then just take my chances with the remainder of the fluid until such time as the clutch drags or quits releasing altogether, hoping that it would give me some warning, but if not, thinking that almost any auto shop (assuming a bike shop wasn't close by) could (for a price $, of course) help me out if I got stranded with out a clutch on the road with a fluid bleed. In other words, the clutch bleed seems to be more problematic than a brake bleed, yet much less catastrophic if it fails to function. Thought I'd also give all the naysayers a chance to unload on my silly thinking.
Probably will totally bleed it when ever I think I'll have a month or more of down time in case I have problems.
(to save all the "easy boys" I just replaced "suck out" with "remove".)
-
"I will send you and envelope full of compressed air"
Wouldn't nitrogen be better?
-
Compressed air comes with nitrogen. It's a package deal.
-
Personally, if I did not use air, I would go with argon- it is heavier than air and settles to the bottom of the envelope; those are guaranteed for two full years instead of the one year guarantee that air comes with.
Brian
"I will send you and envelope full of compressed air"
Wouldn't nitrogen be better?
-
Am reading this thread with a measure of trepidation, but I think -- thanks to you who have commented -- I'll be prepared for this puppy.
I ordered the HF part no. 92924. There is a different model, different part number, but it's sold in the store only. As I live 2 hours from the nearest HF, hey, I'll take my chances with this guy.
https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html)
I've got two small compressors, one of which is a 5 gal. pancake style. And the requisite hose and fittings. (Can't remember the last time I used it, so it's probably time to dust it off.)
-
Successfully bled my brake fluid using a mityvac, even though I did empty the reservoir once and had to do the top bleed as well. ::)
However after reading this thread, I'm actually thinking of just removing the dirty fluid from the clutch top reservoir and replacing it without a full system bleed.
Perhaps empty it half way, add more fluid then just remove as much dirt and old fluid as I can without letting it get too low. (http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif)
I never did do this. ↑
Happenstance provided another avenue to solve this problem.
I managed to break a tooth off of 4th gear and when the dealer repaired it under warranty the the clutch fluid was drained and refilled in the repair.
I don't recommend this approach but it did work for me. 8)
-
Just saw Marty reactivated this old thread and wanted to comment on this post:
The hydraulic systems on the C-14 are not very hard to work with and are not tricky. And if one is really wary, the master cylinder reservoirs could be drained, cleaned out and as long as the bottom of the reservoir was not allowed so such any air, the system could be bled manually.... worst case scenario is that it would not bleed but it would still work.
But in the end, the price of air compressors has dropped quite a bit and brake vacuum systems are really pretty cheap, so a one- time investment and a person can bleed / fix/ replace brake pads and so forth forever. And just to make sure I put this clearly: with a vacuum system to do the bleeding of the systems, they are effortless to do and it always works. Even with a totally dry system, it is easy to re-fill and fully bleed these systems. No need to be wary. The only thing I have found is that it takes more brake fluid to clean these systems out than I would have thought but even that is not awful or anything to fear, and by 'more' I do not mean a ridiculous amount; the smallest brake fluid container is normally enough to do both brake systems and the clutch on a C-14.
Brian
Am reading this thread with a measure of trepidation, but I think -- thanks to you who have commented -- I'll be prepared for this puppy.
I ordered the HF part no. 92924. There is a different model, different part number, but it's sold in the store only. As I live 2 hours from the nearest HF, hey, I'll take my chances with this guy.
https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html)
I've got two small compressors, one of which is a 5 gal. pancake style. And the requisite hose and fittings. (Can't remember the last time I used it, so it's probably time to dust it off.)
-
Easiest way to bleed the clutch and brakes is fit Speed Bleeders from Murphs, https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_157&products_id=419 (https://www.murphskits.com/product_info.php?cPath=130_157&products_id=419)
I found.
-
Here is my experience. I've replaced the fluid in my clutch and brake systems every two years on my 08 which now has 73K miles. This past spring I went on a ride and noticed the clutch had excess play when the bike got warm. I bled the clutch again and all was fine for a little while when just riding down the highway the clutch lever went all the way to the grip with no resistance. I stopped and after about an hour it was fine again. I went home and bled it again with some air in the fluid. This happened a couple of times with no one able to explain it. I finally went to the local Kawi dealer to buy a rebuild kit for the master cylinder. I talked to their mechanic and he said I needed a new clutch hose. He's seen the same symptoms on a few Connies with some age and many miles. The hose gets warm and bad things happen. So I bought a new hose and a master cylinder rebuild kit since I had it apart anyway. I've yet to install the parts to test it out. Been busy and I have a second bike so what's the rush? :)
I was going to wait until after I replaced all the components and tested it before posting but I'll let you know in a week or so what I find.
-
I have had that identical set of symptoms on my own '08. The difference is that I have not replaced any parts, and a power bleed has cured it every single time.
A wise man once said, these bikes are a bi!ch to bleed without a power bleeder.
:-)
Brian
Here is my experience. I've replaced the fluid in my clutch and brake systems every two years on my 08 which now has 73K miles. This past spring I went on a ride and noticed the clutch had excess play when the bike got warm. I bled the clutch again and all was fine for a little while when just riding down the highway the clutch lever went all the way to the grip with no resistance. I stopped and after about an hour it was fine again. I went home and bled it again with some air in the fluid. This happened a couple of times with no one able to explain it. I finally went to the local Kawi dealer to buy a rebuild kit for the master cylinder. I talked to their mechanic and he said I needed a new clutch hose. He's seen the same symptoms on a few Connies with some age and many miles. The hose gets warm and bad things happen. So I bought a new hose and a master cylinder rebuild kit since I had it apart anyway. I've yet to install the parts to test it out. Been busy and I have a second bike so what's the rush? :)
I was going to wait until after I replaced all the components and tested it before posting but I'll let you know in a week or so what I find.
-
I did use a power bleeder but it didn't cure the symptoms. It was a friends homemade power bleeder but still pulled a vacuum. Anyway, I have a compressed air power bleeder now. The fact that the technician had the same symptoms on multiple bikes tells me that I and he are on the right track. It could be my hose (easy guys, to borrow a phrase) is in worse shape than yours due to riding factors. I've spent a lot of time in stop and go traffic during my 73,000 miles which might cause more heat related issues with the hose.
All I can say is after spending $130 for the hose and another $50 for the master rebuild kit, it better cure the problem.
Another observation is that I should have been lubing the pivot pin on the clutch grip. It was in bad shape with some corrosion and completely dry. After some cleanup with scotch brite and some lube I hope it works better going forward. I think they should include a new pin in with the master rebuild kit.
-
Last thing first: the pivot pins in all the C-14's I have removed them from have been in tough shape: all dry, and some (most) corroded to varying degrees. Cleaning and lubing them makes such a difference, the riders usually 'bark' the brakes the next couple of times. At first I though Kawasaki was assembling the pivots dry but now believe they are using some type of dry lube. My advise it to lube them as soon as practical.... like the night you bring a new bike home. :-) Once lubed, I find all wear stops and they last forever, or at least 10 years and six digits of miles.
Bleeding: not throwing rocks at you and not trying to say your brake components are not bad. Just pointing out that this situation is often the result of a little air left in the system after bleeding. In addition to power bleeding, I have found bleeding them three times after I would normally claim I was finished ended the problem of the magic clutch engagement point depending on engine temp.
So, if you have power bled the system, and done a thorough (read: done it three times all in one go), then yep, I too would look for something seeping in the system. I did have a bad clutch slave cylinder early on with my C-14 and it was replace under warranty. And I believe that too was shipping air into the system rather than leaking fluid out of it.
Again, no criticism or knock against you, your post or your situation. Merely throwing out the fact that I have seen this before and it often pays to bleed a system two more times to see if that cures the problem
Best of luck with your bike but it sounds like you have things well in hand with the path you are taking.
Brian
I did use a power bleeder but it didn't cure the symptoms. It was a friends homemade power bleeder but still pulled a vacuum. Anyway, I have a compressed air power bleeder now. The fact that the technician had the same symptoms on multiple bikes tells me that I and he are on the right track. It could be my hose (easy guys, to borrow a phrase) is in worse shape than yours due to riding factors. I've spent a lot of time in stop and go traffic during my 73,000 miles which might cause more heat related issues with the hose.
All I can say is after spending $130 for the hose and another $50 for the master rebuild kit, it better cure the problem.
Another observation is that I should have been lubing the pivot pin on the clutch grip. It was in bad shape with some corrosion and completely dry. After some cleanup with scotch brite and some lube I hope it works better going forward. I think they should include a new pin in with the master rebuild kit.
-
Best of luck with your bike but it sounds like you have things well in hand with the path you are taking.
We shall see. Thanks for all your advice along the way here.
-
Old BBQ propane tank, a couple of valves, a vacuum generator and a pressure/vacuum gauge. All from McmasterCarr. Weld in three threaded bosses for the valves and gauge. You now have a $300 professional vacuum bleeder for less than $50 bucks.Oh, and an air nipple to pressurize the tank so you can empty it.
-
When the master, calipers and brake line were changed on my other bike, bleeding them out was very difficult. Someone on another forum recommended that I hook small hoses up to the bleeders and raise them up to an elevated bucket. By doing this, I was able to work the micro bubbles out and not have to worry about opening/closing the bleeder 10,000 times. It worked like a charm.
Had the exact same bike... miss it every day. And those flames on the tank make it go super fast! :) In all seriousness, I :censored: love the VMAX!
-
I don't know why this topic jumped to the top of my display, but it did.
One thing that helped me, in bleeding the clutch, is to adjust the clutch lever so the span between it, and the grip, was at 100%. Once I did that, the motion the master cylinder saw was larger, and the air bubles were released, no problem.
Someone probably knows this answer, too. I have the low end , mityvac bleeder. The plastic one. I typically just use it on the cars. Rarely on the bike.
But, when I do, it's a real pos. I fight the handle falling off, and it will corrode if left for more than a week, or two.
Is the metal mityvac better, Or is there another brand I should be looking at?
-
I'll have to try the lever thing...
-
In my own experience, having tried three different hand- operated bleeder pumps on a C-14, I would suggest going with an automatic bleeder that is powered by compressed air. Turns a PITA to impossible job into one that is effortless and works perfectly, every single time. Of course you will need an air compressor but the bleeders themselves are fairly cheap, with a Harbor Freight model for around $35. I have no experience with this thing but all a powered bleeder really is is a vacuum aspirator (fancy term for two tubes attached at 90 degrees really) and some fittings.
Just as an example: https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html)
My metal hand pump is selectable to produce either vacuum or pressure with the flip of a lever, and it is lousy both ways. A big part of the problem I find is that the bleeders leak enough to consume a LOT of a hand pump's pumping action and there is not much left over to do the actual bleeding. This is exactly where a power bleeder comes in so handy- it just keeps on pulling a vacuum, providing more than enough flow to keep up with the bleeder leaks AND still actually bleed the hydraulics.
Best of luck with whatever you get though.
Brian
I don't know why this topic jumped to the top of my display, but it did.
One thing that helped me, in bleeding the clutch, is to adjust the clutch lever so the span between it, and the grip, was at 100%. Once I did that, the motion the master cylinder saw was larger, and the air bubles were released, no problem.
Someone probably knows this answer, too. I have the low end , mityvac bleeder. The plastic one. I typically just use it on the cars. Rarely on the bike.
But, when I do, it's a real pos. I fight the handle falling off, and it will corrode if left for more than a week, or two.
Is the metal mityvac better, Or is there another brand I should be looking at?
-
Thank you BDF. I have a home compressor. Its small (3hp). Its also old enough (late 80s) that it says, "Made in America" on it.
It has to be a better option than the mity vac. Like you say, once you factor in the leaks, I think I can pee more brake fluid than the might vac will move. Im also tired of dealing with its handle.
The handle issue is just a symptom. The real problem is trying to hurry so as to not lose the vacuum thats there...and yes, its just a flawed system.
-
I have and really like a Mity Vac vacuum system (powered by compressed air) but they are a bit expensive at around $90 or so. That is the only reason I mentioned the one from Harbor Freight, which as I said, I have absolutely no experience with. But as long as it works at all, and there are no huge flaws such as stripped threads on a fitting or similar, it should work fine. It is just such a simple device.
Truth be told, one can be made at home using any kind of jar, some hosing and a soldered together 'aspirator', or a real store- bought aspirator, for a few bucks. But the H.F. unit is so cheap I really doubt it is worth making one.
The other thing that works well is to bleed the system with pressure forced into the master cylinder. I have done this with great success but it is risky enough that I never recommend it; I use a tapered rubber adapter and jam it into the drain hole (Easy Boys!) in the reservoir and then just apply brake fluid under pressure. The problem with this is that if the adapter slips out (Boys!) or the hose disconnects from the adapter, the pressure will spray brake fluid everywhere that that stuff is nasty. Hell, in a garage, it would end up all over everything such as the tractor, snow blower, etc,. etc.. So while it actually works very well, it is just too risky and I do not want to be the guy who got anyone else in that mess.
Brian
Thank you BDF. I have a home compressor. Its small (3hp). Its also old enough (late 80s) that it says, "Made in America" on it.
It has to be a better option than the mity vac. Like you say, once you factor in the leaks, I think I can pee more brake fluid than the might vac will move. Im also tired of dealing with its handle.
The handle issue is just a symptom. The real problem is trying to hurry so as to not lose the vacuum thats there...and yes, its just a flawed system.
-
90.00 does sound like a lot, but I'll save way more than that by using it on the car, once.
I appreciate the advise and I ordered one this morning. I bought the Mity Vac mv 6830. The ebay price was 122.00. Extremely cheap if it avoids having to replace an abs pump, or other component. Plus, its goign to be faster and easier to work with. I can do this, yearly, if I want to .
Probably overkill, for the motorcycles. The concours 14 clutch is the only one ive ever fought with.. This might nice for that...we'll see.
A friend on the ninja 1000 forum had his abs pump go bad on his 2012 ninja 1000 abs. Kawasaki warrantied the pump, despite his bike being way out of warranty.
Ive been much more aware of aged brake fluid since I saw the price of his pump would have been 1200.00. No one mentioned old brake fluid as being his cause/issue, but its all we have control over.
-
Yeah, I think I was a little low on my price guess. And that is the exact model that I have and it works wonderfully.
I do not know if it will save anyone's ABS pump but I think it will encourage anyone / everyone with access to one of those to do a job that most of us just do not do often enough; replace the brake fluid in the hydraulics of vehicles, especially motorcycles. And every one of us measures our own greed as well as value but to me, that powered bleeder is simply a fantastically good tool in that it takes a PITA job, one that is often just impossible to get 100% right (soft, squishy clutches and often, brakes) and makes it truly fast and easy. Really, really, easy.
I try never to spend other people's money and so try to be careful what I suggest anyone / everyone should do or buy but honestly, I really doubt you will mind having spent the money the very first time you use that thing. At least I hope so.
One other piece of free advise (maybe worth exactly what you paid for it): when you are all done fully cleaning and bleeding the hydraulics on each part of the C-14..... do it two more times. Seriously, the air is just a cast- iron- bi!ch to get out of this bike and those last few tiny air bubbles will really impact the feel of the hydraulics. The clutch will be far more consistent going from cold to hot, and the brakes will just be so much crisper when the system is fully bled, which I have found takes a lot more brake fluid that I would have thought.
And using a powered brake- bleeder makes it very, very easy NOT to spill any brake fluid on the plastics or painted parts of the bike- a real plus IMO 'cause no one likes the results of brake fluid on paint or plastics. On local Tech. day, I bleed a bunch of C-14's and honestly, I would not do that on other people's bikes w/out that power bleeder because I think I would be doing a 'less than great' job of it, and frankly I would be a bit too nervous about spattering brake fluid on someone else's bike.
Brian
90.00 does sound like a lot, but I'll save way more than that by using it on the car, once.
I appreciate the advise and I ordered one this morning. I bought the Mity Vac mv 6830. The ebay price was 122.00. Extremely cheap if it avoids having to replace an abs pump, or other component. Plus, its goign to be faster and easier to work with. I can do this, yearly, if I want to .
Probably overkill, for the motorcycles. The concours 14 clutch is the only one ive ever fought with.. This might nice for that...we'll see.
A friend on the ninja 1000 forum had his abs pump go bad on his 2012 ninja 1000 abs. Kawasaki warrantied the pump, despite his bike being way out of warranty.
Ive been much more aware of aged brake fluid since I saw the price of his pump would have been 1200.00. No one mentioned old brake fluid as being his cause/issue, but its all we have control over.
-
The HF tool has decent reviews. I may give it a go as I wont use it a lot.
Are bleeder valves leaking around the threads less of an issue with a pump?
Wayne
-
Yes, the bleeders leaking are not an issue with a power bleeder because it will pull hard enough to keep up with the bleeder leak and also maintain a pull on the hydraulics themselves. This is the fatal flaw I have found with all hand pumped type bleeders; at the end of the piston stroke, the vacuum stops and that is when air appears to get into the end of the actual hydraulic system. Because power bleeders are continuous, that situation never happens. So while using a power bleeder there usually is a small stream of air bubbles in the drain line but that is coming from the threads around the bleeder and does not have any impact on the brake or clutch system itself.
Brian
The HF tool has decent reviews. I may give it a go as I wont use it a lot.
Are bleeder valves leaking around the threads less of an issue with a pump?
Wayne
-
I think a lot of you guys do like I do and do at least some maintenance on your motorcycles and your cars, as well.
The leaking bleeders are what killed me with the hand type Mity-Vac. I would pump it, but the vacuum was soon equalized from the leaking threaded connections. At that point, one had to pump like mad (wow, this is sounding bad), then the handle falls off.....find handle, but now its cross pin is missing.
It costing 90 or 122 is no big deal. The shop quoted "about 300.00" to look through (???) my brake system and bleed it, if needed.
I know I did not need the "look through" as its a Japanese car. The calipers are very much motorcycle like and very low effort to rebuild them, or replace the pads.
-
One other piece of free advise (maybe worth exactly what you paid for it): when you are all done fully cleaning and bleeding the hydraulics on each part of the C-14..... do it two more times.
You've mentioned this advice a few times and it occurs to me I don't really know what you mean by it. Are you saying to completely exchange all the fluid 2 more times? If so, how do you know when the fluid is exchanged again since it's now clean and there is no visual indicator.
-
You've mentioned this advice a few times and it occurs to me I don't really know what you mean by it. Are you saying to completely exchange all the fluid 2 more times? If so, how do you know when the fluid is exchanged again since it's now clean and there is no visual indicator.
Easy, just note the volume it took from the first flush.
-
Yes, I am saying to push a lot more fluid through the system than you think is required.
What I do is to remove all the fluid directly from the reservoirs (no need to draw all that stuff through the system), then re-fill with fresh, clean fluid. Once the fluid at the slave cylinder (brake caliper or slave clutch cylinder) is perfectly clear, rather than stop and think you are done, flush the system for two more full reservoirs of fresh fluid. This may seem like a waste but after having to go back and re-bleed a system for a second time on several different bikes to remove the last of that spongy feeling, no doubt due to minute air bubbles in the system, now I just bleed the system two more times after I am done bleeding it completely. By 'two more times', I mean two reservoirs full of fluid from the fill line down to <almost> empty. This seems to work well, and I have not had to re- bleed a single bike since I have started this.
It usually takes me a full pint of brake fluid to clean and purge all three sets of hydraulics on a C-14.
Brian
You've mentioned this advice a few times and it occurs to me I don't really know what you mean by it. Are you saying to completely exchange all the fluid 2 more times? If so, how do you know when the fluid is exchanged again since it's now clean and there is no visual indicator.
-
I do the same thing. If i'm replacing fluid, lets make sure i've done all I can to replace 100% of it.....probably impossible to really replace it all, but an honest effort to do so.
By the time the first flush is complete, the mess is already made, and I have all my painted surfaces covered with aluminum foil. I learned, the hard way, to cover way more of the painted surfaces than necessary. Aluminum foil is more durable than saran wrap, so I use that.
Same idea with the fresh fluid. Im sure its very clean , after the first pass, but why not spend an extra 5.00, in fluid, and be sure?
-
Yeah, I wrap the area around the reservoir with lots of paper towels, and then cover the tank, dash and windshield with old bath towels. Same exact idea though: first be careful not to spill or spatter ANY of that stuff around. And once you are sure you will not do that, cover all the places the spatter may reach..... a belt and suspenders but hey, at least your pants won't fall down.... so much, right?
Brian
I do the same thing. If i'm replacing fluid, lets make sure i've done all I can to replace 100% of it.....probably impossible to really replace it all, but an honest effort to do so.
By the time the first flush is complete, the mess is already made, and I have all my painted surfaces covered with aluminum foil. I learned, the hard way, to cover way more of the painted surfaces than necessary. Aluminum foil is more durable than saran wrap, so I use that.
Same idea with the fresh fluid. Im sure its very clean , after the first pass, but why not spend an extra 5.00, in fluid, and be sure?
-
Why is the clutch system such a bitch?
Have the HF pneumatic bleeder.
Brakes done a couple times, no worries.
Clutch side done once (year ago-ish), the second time (this past summer) required a tow to my Tech (thanks AMA) and High Performance Cycles Lake City, FL!, absolutely no lever! 123,172 miles?
He got it good then at 126,000 miles the fuel pump gave up and clutch lever action was wonky, again.
Bled the system, again, while waiting for the fuel pump and all is good for 3,000+ miles now.
-
It is not..... with a power bleeding system such as you have. It is without one. All explained in great detail earlier in this thread.
Brian
Why is the clutch system such a bitch?
Have the HF pneumatic bleeder.
Brakes done a couple times, no worries.
Clutch side done once (year ago-ish), the second time (this past summer) required a tow to my Tech (thanks AMA) and High Performance Cycles Lake City, FL!, absolutely no lever! 123,172 miles?
He got it good then at 126,000 miles the fuel pump gave up and clutch lever action was wonky, again.
Bled the system, again, while waiting for the fuel pump and all is good for 3,000+ miles now.
-
FWIW, I've used the power bleeder approach and took diligent care in following the instructions already given upthread. Worked like a champ in front and rear brakes, and the clutch. I wound up using about three pints of brake fluid - DOT 4, if I remember correctly.
My bike had sat in a dealer showroom for 3 years before I bought it, and then I rode the bike another 18 months before changing the brake and clutch fluids, along with the coolant. Definitely glad I did all that, because it was due. The clutch fluid was especially funky and while I didn't have any trouble with it, it was just a matter of time.
There is such a small volume of fluid in the system(s) that I think that fact alone makes the hydraulic system prone to problems if the fluid is aged.
-
I've had a lot of problems with my clutch last year on my 2008 as I wrote earlier in the thread. I had the problem with the lever going completely away while just riding down the road, after the bike is hot. I change my clutch and brake fluids every other year and I had changed them last winter. I never let the level get too low in the master cylinder while doing it. I started out the year riding in AR and after three days I noticed my clutch lever was going away. Got the bike home and had the no lever, locked in gear syndrome occur. Bled it manually and it would be fine for a short time, then the problem reoccurred. Went to the local Kawi dealer and the tech there said the only cure is to replace the clutch line, so I did that. I also rebuilt the master cylinder because I already had it apart. Then, taking the advice of BDF I bought the super duper bleed device that I can use with my air compressor. All of this lasted all summer and I've only ridden it a couple of times now that I think I have it fixed. It probably wouldn't have taken all summer if I didn't have another bike to ride and part way through the ordeal the left cooling fan went out so I had to replace it. The bike has about 74k miles on it.
Anyway, for someone who is having the issues and can't seem to bleed the problem away consider a new clutch line. Galfer has both clutch and brake SST lines for the bike and they are cheaper than the stock Kawi rubber products. I'm debating whether I should buy a set of those and throw them on while waiting for riding weather.
Good luck all. Thanks for the info and answers BDF.
http://galferusa.com/product-category/kawasaki/2008/cruiser/zg-1400-concours (http://galferusa.com/product-category/kawasaki/2008/cruiser/zg-1400-concours)
-
Glad to help if and when I can, and glad you found something useful.
That is the very first problem I notice on the C-14's clutch, the engagement point changes between hot and cold (even in summer, I mean the engine being 'cold' or up to temperature). One time I could not eliminate the issue and had the slave cylinder replaced under warranty. Otherwise, the few other times it has happened, a power- bleeding has taken care of it. The clutch system on this bike seems very sensitive to even a tiny amount of air in the system.
The part that I find surprising is how quickly the clutch gets so 'bad' and then that a simple but thorough bleeding fixes it. It certainly feels like something is or has failed and it is past time for some parts changing but again, just a complete bleed brings it back to 100%. Almost mystical.... and I do not believe in that stuff. :-)
Brian
I've had a lot of problems with my clutch last year on my 2008 as I wrote earlier in the thread. I had the problem with the lever going completely away while just riding down the road, after the bike is hot. I change my clutch and brake fluids every other year and I had changed them last winter. I never let the level get too low in the master cylinder while doing it. I started out the year riding in AR and after three days I noticed my clutch lever was going away. Got the bike home and had the no lever, locked in gear syndrome occur. Bled it manually and it would be fine for a short time, then the problem reoccurred. Went to the local Kawi dealer and the tech there said the only cure is to replace the clutch line, so I did that. I also rebuilt the master cylinder because I already had it apart. Then, taking the advice of BDF I bought the super duper bleed device that I can use with my air compressor. All of this lasted all summer and I've only ridden it a couple of times now that I think I have it fixed. It probably wouldn't have taken all summer if I didn't have another bike to ride and part way through the ordeal the left cooling fan went out so I had to replace it. The bike has about 74k miles on it.
Anyway, for someone who is having the issues and can't seem to bleed the problem away consider a new clutch line. Galfer has both clutch and brake SST lines for the bike and they are cheaper than the stock Kawi rubber products. I'm debating whether I should buy a set of those and throw them on while waiting for riding weather.
Good luck all. Thanks for the info and answers BDF.
http://galferusa.com/product-category/kawasaki/2008/cruiser/zg-1400-concours (http://galferusa.com/product-category/kawasaki/2008/cruiser/zg-1400-concours)
-
When the master, calipers and brake line were changed on my other bike, bleeding them out was very difficult. Someone on another forum recommended that I hook small hoses up to the bleeders and raise them up to an elevated bucket. By doing this, I was able to work the micro bubbles out and not have to worry about opening/closing the bleeder 10,000 times. It worked like a charm.
Nicole i love your vmax! i had one just like it, miss it so much! toying w the idea of buying another one. That bike has a soul.
-
Nicole i love your vmax! i had one just like it, miss it so much! toying w the idea of buying another one. That bike has a soul.
Nicole's post is over three years old and she is no longer a member here.
-
The truth is sometimes harsh...
-
:)
-
Getting away from the recent publication discussion (and soon to be deleted) ...repeating pinkie's query....
What's harsh?
..and seeking some insight to this answer..
The truth is sometimes harsh...
I want to ask "which truth?", but that may be too close to the soon to be deleted discussion, so I'll provide some options.
A. Conrad's reply, though accurate, seemed an overly harsh response to issue to a newbie poster.
B. Nicole's decision to leave this forum was harsh.
C. How the clutch responds when it needs bleeding seems harsh.
D. Something else that involves truth and harshness.
-
No more comments on the book please. These posts will mysteriously disappear shortly.
Thank you.
-
Probably someone 'top posted'. :rotflmao: But yeah, I did not get that 'harsh' reference either. Of course we are getting pretty old Marty, I know I find myself shaking my head more and more often reading the news anyway.
Brian
Getting away from the recent publication discussion (and soon to be deleted) ...repeating pinkie's query....
..and seeking some insight to this answer..
I want to ask "which truth?", but that may be too close to the soon to be deleted discussion, so I'll provide some options.
A. Conrad's reply, though accurate, seemed an overly harsh response to issue to a newbie poster.
B. Nicole's decision to leave this forum was harsh.
C. How the clutch responds when it needs bleeding seems harsh.
D. Something else that involves truth and harshness.
-
A and B.
-
Ive always used my MotioPro bleeder and clutch response has alwaus been sweet.
-
BDF, I saw something interesting regarding brake bleeding and the c14 abs bikes.
One of the posts mentioned that it might be a good idea to turn the key to the on position, while bleeding. Doing so may activate the abs solenoids and allow a better, or more complete flush of the fluid.
That sounds too good to be true. What do you think? It would be easy enough to do this, if it helped.
I thought BMWs abs system required extra labor to do a complete flush, but if I remember correctly, our systems dont require any extra steps to flush EVERYTHING and not leave old fluid behind.
-
It may help if it activates any portion of the ABS system. ?? I have a non- ABS bike and so I have no idea if it might help on bikes equipped with ABS but it certainly could be right. ??
I have bled a bunch of ABS bikes and never did turn on the ignition (honestly, never thought of it) and do not know if it would help or speed things up or not. But ABS bikes do power- bleed just fine though they take more fluid to flush of course because of the extra brake plumbing and the pump itself.
Hopefully someone who has tried this will jump in and shed some light on it.
Brian
BDF, I saw something interesting regarding brake bleeding and the c14 abs bikes.
One of the posts mentioned that it might be a good idea to turn the key to the on position, while bleeding. Doing so may activate the abs solenoids and allow a better, or more complete flush of the fluid.
That sounds too good to be true. What do you think? It would be easy enough to do this, if it helped.
I thought BMWs abs system required extra labor to do a complete flush, but if I remember correctly, our systems dont require any extra steps to flush EVERYTHING and not leave old fluid behind.
-
One of the posts mentioned that it might be a good idea to turn the key to the on position, while bleeding. Doing so may activate the abs solenoids and allow a better, or more complete flush of the fluid.
That sounds too good to be true. What do you think?
(Even though this query was addressed to Brian, I hope it was opened to all when Brian said he didn't have an ABS bike?)
While it is an interesting thought, one would think that Mama Kaw would have mentioned it in the service manual. It's not in either section of mine. Additionally the owners manual also mentions that the abs system doesn't function below approx. 3.1 mph so unless you bleed brakes above that speed...?
Still it's an interesting thought, and one of you should try it and report back....until then I'm going to put it in the same storage section as that rumor about calibrating the throttle position sensor by....oh nevermind. ;)
-
+1
-
The question was always open to all- anything posted in a public place is and always should be IMO. I think the OP was just referencing me 'cause I had posted earlier in the thread. Brian does not have any special insights, secret knowledge or even a decoder ring. :-)
In fact, my knowledge about ABS systems in general is limited and I should spend a little time learning a bit more. I got to use them a great deal a couple of days ago on a GM vehicle and wondered then how the system was valved and pumped. Going to have to consult Google on this one and spiff up a little, especially since it is almost a certainty that my next bike will have ABS and I will not readily purchase a new pump should the O.E. one fail. The only good news there is that on the C-14 (and most Japanese bikes that I have seen ABS pump prices for) are merely tremendously expensive, not ridiculously expensive.... squared, as the one I saw bought for a BMW K1300GT was. It was knee- buckling expensive, to the point of having to look up the book value of the chassis before making the purchase, seriously.
Brian
(Even though this query was addressed to Brian, I hope it was opened to all when Brian said he didn't have an ABS bike?)
While it is an interesting thought, one would think that Mama Kaw would have mentioned it in the service manual. It's not in either section of mine. Additionally the owners manual also mentions that the abs system doesn't function below approx. 3.1 mph so unless you bleed brakes above that speed...?
Still it's an interesting thought, and one of you should try it and report back....until then I'm going to put it in the same storage section as that rumor about calibrating the throttle position sensor by....oh nevermind. ;)
-
Unfortunately, the PDF of the early service manual updates is a locked/secured file, which I cannot "print to file" to extract the specific pages showing the valving and control features schematically of the system, during various "event" or "enabled" activation of the systems parameters.. I wish I could pull those pages, it would make explaining much easier, but I can't..
soooo... with that said, I'll explain that "key on / key off" during a bleeding process means nothing to the system, and has zero assistance in getting any better bleed of the pump.
As this is all controlled by the ABS ECU, which is itself contained in the pump housing assembly, nothing is activated unless input sensory signals regarding wheel speed differences are activated, so at rest, the bike acts as if it has normal "conventional" brakes... just a direct path from the master cylinder, to the wheel caliper, thru the open solenoid in the pump housing... fluid flow is benignly free in both directions, and the circuit to and from the "pumping" section is shut off by a second solenoid valve. The amount of fluid actually contained in the pump, and passages to and from it between the closed valve, is pretty minuscule, like a couple spoon fulls... and I'd wager about 1/2 oz, to 3/4 oz at most.
Truthfully, I have a "failed" ABS pump unit that was sent to me by someone that had a pump failure, which I have not disassembled completely yet to find root cause for the failure, but rest assured the unit I have leads to my conclusions on how much fluid is "self contained" in it.
so as a result, I can say bleeding the front, or rear system, in a normal manner, is all that you can do, and the fluids that are flushed comprise pretty much 98% of the systems contents...
As others have already noted, I agree that about 2 to 3 bottles/pints accomplishes the job as well as could be done when combining brake and clutch flushing.
-
(Even though this query was addressed to Brian, I hope it was opened to all when Brian said he didn't have an ABS bike?)
While it is an interesting thought, one would think that Mama Kaw would have mentioned it in the service manual. It's not in either section of mine. Additionally the owners manual also mentions that the abs system doesn't function below approx. 3.1 mph so unless you bleed brakes above that speed...?
Still it's an interesting thought, and one of you should try it and report back....until then I'm going to put it in the same storage section as that rumor about calibrating the throttle position sensor by....oh nevermind. ;)
Marty, thats funny. Imagine bleeding the brakes only to find out you only held 3mph, and not the 3.1 like you were supposed to. All that wasted effort in balancing, and gymnastics...
I think you guys are right and that key idea probably does not matter. I have the non abs ninja 1000, and this concours 14 abs. When I flush the brake fluid, I try to use different brands. Sometimes the fluid color is slightly different and it makes it easier to see if the job is completed. For example, the galfer brand fluid is a sort-of yellow color.
The abs bike takes much longer to flush and needs more fluid to complete the job.
The Auto Stores have all kinds of fluid, anymore. Several eluded to "long life" or "lasts twice as long". I avoided these, just because they sounded different, but I wonder if there could be anything to this idea of longer lasting fluid? Pentosin brand was one of them.
Then again, abs pump...1200.00.....Im not sure I want to be the one who finds out it was a bad idea.
-
It makes you wonder what makes it "last twice as long" when for us mere mortals the reason for changing the fluid is to get rid of the moisture contamination. Most of us don't use the brakes hard enough to get the fluid temperature high enough to cause it to degrade in that manner.
-
THE Pentosin brand dot4 products are pretty much euro industry standard especially in new vehicles which utilize the Low Viscosity grade, and have exotic traction control technology which is based on brake reactions..
Nothing wrong with the product at all, I'm sure it's higher priced, but you should reap from the expense put out...
On these bikes however, when doing regular fluid replacements at set intervals, completely not needed, as the total quantity of fluid required is less than a liter total, to completely flush the system 3 times over. I've always used Prestone B/F, in the correct grades, and never had issue...
ymmv ;)
now I'll mention something that isn't really apparent anymore, as today's people aren't old enough to remember that prior to the 80's, pretty much all brake fluid you bought, came in a METAL can... now, I will say that storing a half container, whether it was metal, or plastic, and expecting it to be fine a year later, is not wise... but sealed cans of brake fluid manufactured during the 60's and 70's, that I have opened, metal cans... showed no degradation of product.. plastic bottles are a product of our "newer" need for disposal, and frankly a plastic bottle, half filled, will not be viable once opened, resealed, and set on a shelf for a year, or even more. Plastic bottles breath pretty freely...
soooo, I save my "half bottles" for the initial purge when doing a complete flush, I actually will pour them all together as I use a "half bottle" to fill a bottle fully before setting it on a shelf. Then, when I need to do a full flush, use all the older fluid, which may be slightly degraded, which is ok to me, and pump it thru prior to finalizing the service with completely fresh and new fluid...
-
and frankly a plastic bottle, half filled, will not be viable once opened, resealed, and set on a shelf for a year, or even more. Plastic bottles breath pretty freely...
What about factory-sealed plastic bottles that have never been opened and have sat on the shelf for years?
-
Interesting. Personally, I believe that only the absorption of moisture damages brake fluid, and the fluid itself turns dark due to the infusion of oxygen (from the air or more likely, water). This is the 'indicator' of old brake fluid- it is dark, and the darker, the more contaminated it is with water and or, oxygen. So that is what I use as a marker of B.F.'s quality, how dark it is. I have had open bottles of brake fluid, both synthetic and non- synthetic, sitting on the shelf for years without any darkening of the fluid and I continue to use the stuff as needed.
I know and acknowledge that all instructions for using brake fluid always say to use fluid from a 'fresh' container but so far, I have not seen any reason to avoid the older stuff. ??
Brian
<snip>
now I'll mention something that isn't really apparent anymore, as today's people aren't old enough to remember that prior to the 80's, pretty much all brake fluid you bought, came in a METAL can... now, I will say that storing a half container, whether it was metal, or plastic, and expecting it to be fine a year later, is not wise... but sealed cans of brake fluid manufactured during the 60's and 70's, that I have opened, metal cans... showed no degradation of product.. plastic bottles are a product of our "newer" need for disposal, and frankly a plastic bottle, half filled, will not be viable once opened, resealed, and set on a shelf for a year, or even more. Plastic bottles breath pretty freely...
soooo, I save my "half bottles" for the initial purge when doing a complete flush, I actually will pour them all together as I use a "half bottle" to fill a bottle fully before setting it on a shelf. Then, when I need to do a full flush, use all the older fluid, which may be slightly degraded, which is ok to me, and pump it thru prior to finalizing the service with completely fresh and new fluid...
-
As an answer to the unopened sealed bottle thing, kinda depends on how thick, and what polymer plastic was used in the container, and seal... most are made from HDPE High Density Polyethylene, and can cope with quite a bit of resistance to air intrusion, basically because it was completely filled, with very little airspace, and usually stored at a constant temperature... but once opened, and half is used, the remaining "void" in that bottle contains air, and very likely moisture.
a lot of my "opinions" on air and moisture come from my engineering experience when I was responsible for designing "packaging" material for use in "flat pack" Lithium Ion battery production. The chemicals, and composites used to create prismatic cells, are extremely hygroscopic, and as of such, the cathode/anode lamination's once the plasticisers are extracted, are dried, and all "cell assembly" was done in an inert atmosphere (i.e. a helium filled gloved dry box) which was monitored, and ingress and egress chambers were evacuated during loading process. Moisture was virtually non existent, and oxygen also.
The materials I developed for the "soft" package of the cells as designed consisted of multiple layers of non permeable aluminum foil, and proprietary plastic films, which were conducive to laminating with the foil layers, and resultant "heat sealing", I was a great challenge, and I expended a lot of time to perfect the process' (yeah, I have patents on some stuff... but I'm not rich from it... dangit..)
I know it's a bit anal with regards to brake fluid, but I did become very aware of gas and moisture permeability of simple common plastics.
so, In the end, Like I noted, I flush with the slightly aged fluids, and toss them, and my final fill is always fresh stuff... it's cheap, why not.
-
Yeah, part of my background is with plastic film..... like the seven layers in a potato chip (et al.) bag, one of which is an oxygen barrier. But I do not let that slow me down and use "old" brake fluid if it is clear, and I have never had any darken in the container. And my method is even cheaper, so why not squared?
:-)
Brian
As an answer to the unopened sealed bottle thing, kinda depends on how thick, and what polymer plastic was used in the container, and seal... most are made from HDPE High Density Polyethylene, and can cope with quite a bit of resistance to air intrusion, basically because it was completely filled, with very little airspace, and usually stored at a constant temperature... but once opened, and half is used, the remaining "void" in that bottle contains air, and very likely moisture.
a lot of my "opinions" on air and moisture come from my engineering experience when I was responsible for designing "packaging" material for use in "flat pack" Lithium Ion battery production. The chemicals, and composites used to create prismatic cells, are extremely hygroscopic, and as of such, the cathode/anode lamination's once the plasticisers are extracted, are dried, and all "cell assembly" was done in an inert atmosphere (i.e. a helium filled gloved dry box) which was monitored, and ingress and egress chambers were evacuated during loading process. Moisture was virtually non existent, and oxygen also.
The materials I developed for the "soft" package of the cells as designed consisted of multiple layers of non permeable aluminum foil, and proprietary plastic films, which were conducive to laminating with the foil layers, and resultant "heat sealing", I was a great challenge, and I expended a lot of time to perfect the process' (yeah, I have patents on some stuff... but I'm not rich from it... dangit..)
I know it's a bit anal with regards to brake fluid, but I did become very aware of gas and moisture permeability of simple common plastics.
so, In the end, Like I noted, I flush with the slightly aged fluids, and toss them, and my final fill is always fresh stuff... it's cheap, why not.
-
MOB, I saw something interesting at a bottled water plant we work with.
I was watching the fill production line, Id guess it was called. They have the thin, clear bottles and the fresh, pure, filtered water is placed into them.
This leaves an air space that about 1 inch front the bottom of its lid.
Just before the lid gets screwed on, they place a drop of liquid nitrogen inside the bottle. The nitrogen is flashing off, the lid is screwed on. Doing so helps flush out all the air, and it pressurizes the bottle, just a little, and makes the bottle stronger. This allows them to stack the finished product.
I wondered if maybe they do a similar thing with other fluids we buy? Anyway, I wished you were there so you could fully explain what was going on.
-
MOB, I saw something interesting at a bottled water plant we work with.
I was watching the fill production line, Id guess it was called. They have the thin, clear bottles and the fresh, pure, filtered water is placed into them.
This leaves an air space that about 1 inch front the bottom of its lid.
Just before the lid gets screwed on, they place a drop of liquid nitrogen inside the bottle. The nitrogen is flashing off, the lid is screwed on. Doing so helps flush out all the air, and it pressurizes the bottle, just a little, and makes the bottle stronger. This allows them to stack the finished product.
I wondered if maybe they do a similar thing with other fluids we buy? Anyway, I wished you were there so you could fully explain what was going on.
I'm very aware of that process, and have studied it back in the mid 90's when I came into widespread use, It works great on non carbonated beverages, and food products; I saw it in use in the medical packaging industry a lot, where sterility had to be maintained during the vacuum sealing of packages containing drugs, and other medical implements, such as high end dressings, plastics, chemical compositions and such, that could not be subjected to high temp autoclave sterilization. Many other forms were used in packaging such as "gas tunnel" lines, which were gas flooded long conveyor tunnels, which contained inert gas, but as cost due to quantity of gas expended made it a bit prohibitive for common usage, things like freeze dried foods, and MRE's were the common usage for gas only purging... The added benefit of the process you saw, is the fact that pressurization strengthens the plastic bottles as you noted, and increasingly thinner bottles can be utilized, created less waste impact on the environment, and reduced cost for the bottlers.
As far as use on other products, like brake fluid, I think they do an Argon "puff/purge", as it's more conducive and not an issue like food products purity.
Now, this really is the epitome of storing your stash..... 8) 8) 8) ;D
http://www.vacuumbarrier.com/articles/application-study-cannabis.html (http://www.vacuumbarrier.com/articles/application-study-cannabis.html)
yes, It's come to that level...
-
Great....maybe it'll keep that **** from stinking up the house.
-
Usually, when a 'gas filler' that will not oxidize anything is needed, nitrogen is used because it is many times less expensive than argon. Argon is a true inert gas but almost all organic products only react substantially with oxygen so nitrogen, while not inert, is non- reactive with almost all (and I think all) organic products. Nitrogen is always used if and when a non- evaporative absorbing gas is needed, such as purging of fuel containers to keep the oxygen AND the water out of it.
Airline aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen because it contains no oxygen, and it contains no moisture. Large aircraft tires are pressurized to high enough levels to become explosive at surprisingly low temperatures if an oxygen rich atmosphere (read: the atmosphere ;D ) so nitrogen is used because it will not support combustion of the tires. And of course, there is no possibility of getting too much moisture in nitrogen as there is in air; an aircraft tire at -60F would turn any collected moisture into a block of ice while would not help the tire balance properly.
Brian
I'm very aware of that process, and have studied it back in the mid 90's when I came into widespread use, It works great on non carbonated beverages, and food products; I saw it in use in the medical packaging industry a lot, where sterility had to be maintained during the vacuum sealing of packages containing drugs, and other medical implements, such as high end dressings, plastics, chemical compositions and such, that could not be subjected to high temp autoclave sterilization. Many other forms were used in packaging such as "gas tunnel" lines, which were gas flooded long conveyor tunnels, which contained inert gas, but as cost due to quantity of gas expended made it a bit prohibitive for common usage, things like freeze dried foods, and MRE's were the common usage for gas only purging... The added benefit of the process you saw, is the fact that pressurization strengthens the plastic bottles as you noted, and increasingly thinner bottles can be utilized, created less waste impact on the environment, and reduced cost for the bottlers.
As far as use on other products, like brake fluid, I think they do an Argon "puff/purge", as it's more conducive and not an issue like food products purity.
Now, this really is the epitome of storing your stash..... 8) 8) 8) ;D
http://www.vacuumbarrier.com/articles/application-study-cannabis.html (http://www.vacuumbarrier.com/articles/application-study-cannabis.html)
yes, It's come to that level...