Author Topic: ECU Reflash.  (Read 3296 times)

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 02:05:07 pm »
Take a look at zx14 vs c14 dyno graph. zx14 produces way more low end torque than the so called low end torque c14 Queen that they denutted .

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 03:05:41 pm »
Marty, the de-tuning idea is right on.

No it isn't, and he is one of the people teasing.

Quote
With that in mind, do you suppose there is a full power version in Kawasakis test lab?

???
Please define "full power."  The C14. stock *is* "full power."  They didn't remove any "power", they shifted the power band to a location more useful for touring, MPG, ride, comfort.  Or are we just talking about the secondary flies programming?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 04:04:53 pm by maxtog »
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Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 03:06:47 pm »
Take a look at zx14 vs c14 dyno graph. zx14 produces way more low end torque than the so called low end torque c14

You are welcome to look at my footnotes, the graphs are right there.  Based on my research, your statement is not correct.  Larger throttle bodies, intake, and exhaust, and more cam overlap do not translate into more power at lower RPMs, it usually means lower torque, rougher riding, more vibration, less efficiency (lower MPG, more emissions), more deposits (less reliability).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 04:05:58 pm by maxtog »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 03:32:44 pm »
Oddly enough, while I think of a stock C-14 as 'neutered' by the secondaries, maxtog is actually right in this post, in my opinion (I am not implying he is wrong in any other post(s); this is not a left- handed compliment). The secondaries are wide open at 7K RPM if the main throttle is wide open (WOT), so 1) max. power would still be available in a stock C-14 and 2) it probably would not make much difference in, say, 1/4 mile drag times given a skilled rider because the bike would have the secondaries open for the entire trip anyway.


That said, I do not and never have though of the secondary butterfly 'neutering' (my choice of terminology here, personal choice) as a positive thing nor do I think it has any advantages save one, and that is the relatively unimportant lowering of engine noise at low throttle and power stages. But at the same time, I never really though removing the 'flies and correcting the air / fuel ratio was in any way a performance or overall power enhancement, it merely yields the 1,400 cc motorcycle I thought I bought in the first place. A C-14 is not a good choice for a beginner motorcyclist or a first motorcycle IMO, and those buying one should not need the bottom end of the engine's performance cut in half to be 'safe' or make it a suitable touring bike.

When I buy my next C-14, it will have the 'flies in it for the ride home 'cause it is just too much trouble to remove them in the seller's parking lot or driveway.

Anyway, this is just my opinion and I certainly did not mean to get in the way of the discussion of exactly what the 'factory fresh' condition of the C-14 should be called. So please, carry on..... :-)

Brian


<snip>

???
Please define "full power."  The C14. stock *is* "full power."  They didn't remove any "power", they shifted the power band to a location more useful for touring, MPG, ride, comfort.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 03:36:54 pm »
You are welcome to look at my footnotes, the graphs are right there.  Based on my research, your statement is not correct.

And if you are having trouble comparing the two graphs (they are different scales and resolution), I worked my magic with GIMP, and LibreOffice Draw to scale and combine the two in an overlay.  You're welcome :)

Granted, there are lots of different dyno charts out there, I tried to pick one that seemed reliable and representative.
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Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 12:11:15 pm »
From the earlier ecu discussion the comparisson from Ivans reflash thread it really show how much the c14 is detuned :)

Offline fartymarty

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2018, 12:56:09 pm »
From the earlier ecu discussion the comparison from Ivans reflash thread it really show how much the c14 is detuned :)

                                                                                                                                                               :goodpost:

I don't care what max' says about you tb', you're OK in my book!  :finger_fing11:

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2018, 01:37:33 pm »
                                                                                                                                                               :goodpost:

I don't care what max' says about you tb', you're OK in my book!  :finger_fing11:
Stir the pot, add a little fuel to the fire.

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2018, 03:15:09 pm »
I don't care what max' says about you tb', you're OK in my book!  :finger_fing11:

I didn't say anything about anyone...
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 06:07:48 pm »
I couldn't resist replying here as the conversation started to compare the ZX14 and the C14 ...

Thought I would share a comparison dyno chart...
This is the most accurate comparison that I can come up with from my old archives.

Both bikes are unrestricted and tuned by me with the same exhaust on my dyno... years apart, but the conditions are pretty close.
I believe this shows what the engineers designed in it's purest form.
Same exhaust, fuel and timing adjusted for both.
Sub-throttles removed on the ZX, and adjusted for best power on the C14)

I don't believe that stock to stock is a true comparison as far as engine design is concerned because they are restricted differently.


Ivan

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 06:12:35 pm »
The torque numbers are surprising.
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 06:15:36 pm »
The bigger cams in the Zx just move everything higher up... 

What they gain higher up is equal to what they lose at the bottom.


Ivan

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 07:42:29 pm »
I couldn't resist replying here as the conversation started to compare the ZX14 and the C14 ...

Thought I would share a comparison dyno chart...
This is the most accurate comparison that I can come up with from my old archives.

Both bikes are unrestricted and tuned by me with the same exhaust on my dyno... years apart, but the conditions are pretty close.
I believe this shows what the engineers designed in it's purest form.
Same exhaust, fuel and timing adjusted for both.
Sub-throttles removed on the ZX, and adjusted for best power on the C14)

I don't believe that stock to stock is a true comparison as far as engine design is concerned because they are restricted differently.


Ivan
Thanks for the reply. Im curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.

Offline maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2018, 08:44:15 pm »
The torque numbers are surprising.

Not to me they aren't.  It is further support to what I have been saying for years now.

The bigger cams in the Zx just move everything higher up... 

What they gain higher up is equal to what they lose at the bottom.

Exactly.   Thanks for sharing, Ivan.  The differences will actually be MORE exaggerated when they are stock exhaust (the C14 will have even less peak HP and more lower torque).  The stock C14 exhaust system is *NOT* restrictive for its purpose (but it can be one's goal is is to try and change that purpose by raising top HP at the expense of lower RPM power and efficiency).

The C14 is designed for higher power at lower RPM, smoother, and more efficient, like a touring bike should be.
The ZX14 is designed for higher power at higher RPM, like a super-sport bike should be.

Neither is "detuned",  they are both explicitly, purposeful set for their individual roles and goals.  Kawasaki is not stupid.  It would have been far easier and *less* expensive for them to just use the identical ZX14 cams (with lack of VVT), intake, exhaust system, and TB's in both models.  They chose a far more difficult and expensive path to create two bikes that excel at different tasks.  As such, they had to expend far more R&D, source and handle far more different parts, produce much more documentation, etc.

Side comment:  There is nothing wrong with wanting a C14 that behaves like a ZX14.  There is nothing wrong with trying to change it to be that way (and you can come close, if you want).  Some people might be perfectly willing to sacrifice the C14's nice power profile for a different power profile, while keeping some of the nice non-engine things that the C14 has and the ZX14 lacks.  But there is something very wrong with criticizing the C14 because it doesn't behave like a ZX14.
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2018, 11:10:43 pm »
Max - You could save yourself a helluva lotta time and effort if you would just type up one incredibly looong, detailed, thorough rebuttal to those of us on the side of "detuned"*, address every single detuned-related statement/opinion/info you've ever come across that you feel you need to correct, then post it somewhere on this site ... and the next time you need to defend the detuned C14, you can reply by simply posting your link ... and do it again ... and again ... and again ...

And the other beauty would be that could go back and modify / revise / correct your Detune Rebuttal as many times as you like ... again ... and again ...



* aka "denutted"  ;D