Author Topic: ECU Reflash.  (Read 18245 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 06:12:35 PM »
The torque numbers are surprising.

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 06:15:36 PM »
The bigger cams in the Zx just move everything higher up... 

What they gain higher up is equal to what they lose at the bottom.


Ivan

Offline tbanzer

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 07:42:29 PM »
I couldn't resist replying here as the conversation started to compare the ZX14 and the C14 ...

Thought I would share a comparison dyno chart...
This is the most accurate comparison that I can come up with from my old archives.

Both bikes are unrestricted and tuned by me with the same exhaust on my dyno... years apart, but the conditions are pretty close.
I believe this shows what the engineers designed in it's purest form.
Same exhaust, fuel and timing adjusted for both.
Sub-throttles removed on the ZX, and adjusted for best power on the C14)

I don't believe that stock to stock is a true comparison as far as engine design is concerned because they are restricted differently.


Ivan
Thanks for the reply. Im curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.

Online maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2018, 08:44:15 PM »
The torque numbers are surprising.

Not to me they aren't.  It is further support to what I have been saying for years now.

The bigger cams in the Zx just move everything higher up... 

What they gain higher up is equal to what they lose at the bottom.

Exactly.   Thanks for sharing, Ivan.  The differences will actually be MORE exaggerated when they are stock exhaust (the C14 will have even less peak HP and more lower torque).  The stock C14 exhaust system is *NOT* restrictive for its purpose (but it can be one's goal is is to try and change that purpose by raising top HP at the expense of lower RPM power and efficiency).

The C14 is designed for higher power at lower RPM, smoother, and more efficient, like a touring bike should be.
The ZX14 is designed for higher power at higher RPM, like a super-sport bike should be.

Neither is "detuned",  they are both explicitly, purposeful set for their individual roles and goals.  Kawasaki is not stupid.  It would have been far easier and *less* expensive for them to just use the identical ZX14 cams (with lack of VVT), intake, exhaust system, and TB's in both models.  They chose a far more difficult and expensive path to create two bikes that excel at different tasks.  As such, they had to expend far more R&D, source and handle far more different parts, produce much more documentation, etc.

Side comment:  There is nothing wrong with wanting a C14 that behaves like a ZX14.  There is nothing wrong with trying to change it to be that way (and you can come close, if you want).  Some people might be perfectly willing to sacrifice the C14's nice power profile for a different power profile, while keeping some of the nice non-engine things that the C14 has and the ZX14 lacks.  But there is something very wrong with criticizing the C14 because it doesn't behave like a ZX14.
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Offline Conniesaki

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2018, 11:10:43 PM »
Max - You could save yourself a helluva lotta time and effort if you would just type up one incredibly looong, detailed, thorough rebuttal to those of us on the side of "detuned"*, address every single detuned-related statement/opinion/info you've ever come across that you feel you need to correct, then post it somewhere on this site ... and the next time you need to defend the detuned C14, you can reply by simply posting your link ... and do it again ... and again ... and again ...

And the other beauty would be that could go back and modify / revise / correct your Detune Rebuttal as many times as you like ... again ... and again ...



* aka "denutted"  ;D

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2018, 12:47:24 AM »
The 2 bikes are like Arnie & Danny in Twins
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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2018, 06:26:54 AM »
Max - You could save yourself a helluva lotta time and effort if you would just type up one incredibly looong, detailed, thorough rebuttal

I will sacrifice efficiency in the name of creating more opportunities because I wouldn't dream of depriving people of their entertainment.
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Offline just gone

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2018, 07:04:57 AM »
I will sacrifice efficiency in the name of creating more opportunities because I wouldn't dream of depriving people of their entertainment.

..and that is why we L♥ve you max'! ...at least until midnight.  :-*

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2018, 01:45:29 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I'm curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.

TB, many of us have asked for a stock vs stock, or a stock C-14 with ZX exhaust plot,,  for years.
Many have this on their bikes, but no one has ever produced a stock C-14 with ZX exhaust plot. {and I'm not sure that one exists}
If someone has such a plot; please post it for us to see.

Here is a discussion {with plot} for a C-14 with a slip-on.
http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/

If you use the numbers from this plot and guestimate;
I think;    * the stock C-14 / ZX plot would be similar..
               ** the low end torque should be a bit lower {approx. 72 @ 3400} and go above the ZG/ZX Tq. line (@ approx. 4500).
               *** the peak HP will be a bit higher {about 154 @9500}.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 07:39:59 AM by connie_rider »

Online maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2018, 03:27:37 PM »
Here is a discussion {with plot} for a C-14 with a slip-on.  http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/

Unfortunately, can't see without a login.  Changing only the muffler [to something "larger" or higher-flow] should do nothing on the C14 (performance wise) except maybe a very minor higher-RPM HP gain and a minor lower-RPM torque reduction (if at all; probably just noise in the comparison due to variation in runs and such).  So it could still be considered pretty much stock.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2018, 03:53:37 PM »
All the same charts are on my web page here:

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm

2nd chart down the page

Slip-on gains a little more than you think... all above 5000 rpm.

If I have violated any rules by posting a link to my page, please remove it. (thanks)

Ivan

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2018, 04:08:57 PM »
TMI Marty, TMI!

:-)

Brian

..and that is why we L♥ve you max'! ...at least until midnight.  :-*
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Online maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2018, 04:17:19 PM »
2nd chart down the page[...]
Slip-on gains a little more than you think... all above 5000 rpm.

Yeah, +7 (~ 5%) at peak is more than the typical average of around +3 (~2%) I have seen in the past (on other charts).  But certainly believable; I assume it will vary by brand/type.  Whether one would consider that "significant" or not is debatable.  I am not sure anyone would ever be able to detect it when riding...

My advice is to use that money to reflash.  THAT is something that is immediately very noticeable by anyone in just about any use or condition.  :)
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline connie_rider

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2018, 05:40:30 PM »
The plot's didn't attach when I posted the "Slip-on Dyno" discussion.
Not sure why??

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:32:13 PM by connie_rider »

Online maxtog

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2018, 08:09:39 PM »
The plot's didn't attach when I posted the "Slip-on Dyno" discussion.
Not sure why??

Can't help with that, but I can post Ivan's (I doubt he would mind)...
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2018, 04:29:31 AM »
Most independent tests weren't done properly in the past...   ;)
Hence my "different" results which are done properly.

All race slip-ons will give the same result... Delkevic yields the same as Akrapovic.
I believe that most exhaust manufacturers will show slightly conservative results to lessen the possibility of false advertisement.


Ivan

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2018, 04:32:18 AM »
Thanks for the reply. Im curious what they looked like stock for stock. I removed the flies on my bike and added the zx 14 exhaust. When running a completely stock zx14 it was even to about 30ft,after that the zx14 walked away like the c14 was a 600. Do you currently offer a tune for the c14 with flies removed and using a zx14 exhaust.

I have a file that will work for you.
Give me a call when you have time and we can discuss it.

Ivan

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2018, 05:13:19 PM »
What's been left out of the entire conversation as far as I've seen is the effect of VVT. It's not insignificant, and a big part of why the torque curve on the c-14 is as wide and flat as it is.

Correction - Max got it in reply 17. One thing I would suggest though is to move the discussion from one of "compression ratio" which is an fixed mathematical ratio to "compression pressure". That tends to help me think in terms of what the engine is seeing  / reacting to at a given rpm / throttle opening.

Steve
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 05:57:58 PM by Steve in Sunny Fla »

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2018, 07:46:02 PM »
the effect of VVT. It's not insignificant, and a big part of why the torque curve on the c-14 is as wide and flat as it is.

VVT is what allowed Kawasaki to "tune" (design) the C14 for low-end torque, proving more usable power where it is most used in normal riding, but without destroying high-end power in the process.  It is still a compromise (like everything is), but far better than it would been had they totally omitted VVT.  An interesting note is that VVT used in the C14 is a good system- it is truly variable, unlike some of the earlier systems which are only 2-stage, "on/off."

Quote
Max got it in reply 17. One thing I would suggest though is to move the discussion from one of "compression ratio" which is an fixed mathematical ratio to "compression pressure". That tends to help me think in terms of what the engine is seeing  / reacting to at a given rpm / throttle opening.

That is probably more accurate.  I have always seen "static" vs. "dynamic" compression ratio.  Although valve overlap/timing can be expressed that way, it seems more valid when talking about forced induction (like turbo and superchargers).
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: ECU Reflash.
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2018, 11:31:01 AM »
VVT is what allowed Kawasaki to "tune" (design) the C14 for low-end torque, proving more usable power where it is most used in normal riding, but without destroying high-end power in the process.  It is still a compromise (like everything is), but far better than it would been had they totally omitted VVT.  An interesting note is that VVT used in the C14 is a good system- it is truly variable, unlike some of the earlier systems which are only 2-stage, "on/off."

   I'm not sure about that, Max. The oscilloscope readings I've seen has the VVT as an on / off system, with advance coming in around 32-3500 rpm.

  For those who really don't know how valuable VVT is, I'm adding a dyno torque chart (from the interwebz).   Compare the fjr to the concours. See that pancake top torque curve on the concours? that's because of VVT.

  Some might think that the low end gains achieved during tuning come from changes to vvt control. Not so. here's my stock Vs flashed / slipon chart - 15# TQ gained at 3000 rpm.  No changes to VVT at all.

  The biggest gains in power on the concours is low hanging fruit - get the secondaries to stop restricting the intake. But power and dyno charts do not necessarily make for an overall improvement to rideablity.
  Steve