Author Topic: Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2018..The most dangerous Bill in Congress..  (Read 6876 times)

Offline gPink

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..is the biggest threat to the Bill of Rights in modern times.


H.R.4918 - Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2018
https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr4918/BILLS-115hr4918ih.pdf

Offline maxtog

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-Ben Franklin


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Offline B.D.F.

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And once individual rights are traded away, they are difficult to impossible to regain.

People are looking toward the gov't to provide ultimate safety and protection. The gov't cannot provide that but they certainly chip away at personal liberties in an effort to offer some protection along with the false veil of actual security.

Brian

..is the biggest threat to the Bill of Rights in modern times.


H.R.4918 - Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2018
https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr4918/BILLS-115hr4918ih.pdf
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Offline Rhino

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"and that White su- premacists ‘‘were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 . . . more than any other domestic extremist movement’’."

Apparently these guys never heard of jihad.

Offline mikeyw64

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Not sure where Jihad comes into it as ISIS etc (who don't represent all Muslims) is an external factor.


As I read it this Bill is to crack down on your home grown nutters.

That said it does seem like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, these White Supremacists referred too in the PDF are responsible for 46 of the 105,915 homicides carried out in the USA between 2000 & 2016.


Leaving aside any angst individuals may feel about the perceived threat to their rights that's really going to make a dent in the stats although it will create a whole new level of bureaucracy to catch a small percentage of criminals ;)



http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

"and that White su- premacists ‘‘were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 . . . more than any other domestic extremist movement’’."

Apparently these guys never heard of jihad.

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Offline gPink

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mikey, the threats are not 'percieved' they are real. The language in the Bill is open ended, open to interpretation and ambiguous at best. The information sources quoted in the Bill such as Google and the SPLC are left of center and their reliability and truthfulness is not just suspect but proven to be many times outright false. The left has already miss used the power of the fedgov against it's political enemies and will use a law like this to farther punish it's opponents.

Offline mikeyw64

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mikey, the threats are not 'percieved' they are real. The language in the Bill is open ended, open to interpretation and ambiguous at best. The information sources quoted in the Bill such as Google and the SPLC are left of center and their reliability and truthfulness is not just suspect but proven to be many times outright false. The left has already miss used the power of the fedgov against it's political enemies and will use a law like this to farther punish it's opponents.

As I read it, as an impartial outsider, this Bill is intended to create a bureaucracy to investigate & further further  report on "domestic terrorism" which is already defined  in the USC as

activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

The primary aim is "to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity and require the Federal Government to take steps to prevent domestic terrorism."


As I see it the only way that could be worded slightly differently to make it explicit rather than inferred that any such steps follow due legal process is


""to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity and require the Federal Government to take steps using due legal process  to prevent domestic terrorism.""

The activities being investigated & reported on are already a " violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;"

Would it be less 'worrying' if the opening statement of the proposed Bill simply stated """to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity" I wonder especially as the rest of it seems to concentrate on generating powerpoint slideshows & stats for consumption by other bureaucrats ;)



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Offline gPink

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Who gets to define domestic terrorist groups and individual? Are you familiar at all with the Southern Poverty Law Center?

Offline mikeyw64

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Who gets to define domestic terrorist groups and individual? Are you familiar at all with the Southern Poverty Law Center?

There's an existing "broad" definition in the existing USC referenced by this proposed Bill :)


This proposed Bill does not define nor does it seek to define.
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Offline gPink

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There's an existing "broad" definition in the existing USC referenced by this proposed Bill :)


This proposed Bill does not define nor does it seek to define.

And therein  lies one problem.

Offline Rhino

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It specifically targets "right wing extremists". Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stopping right wing extremists from committing acts of terrorism. But I'm also all for stopping anybody, right or left, religious or not, "homegrown" or not, white, black, purple from committing acts of terrorism. We already have a large federal agency tasked with this job. Instead it has been weaponized to go after political opponents of the previous administration.

As I read it, as an impartial outsider, this Bill is intended to create a bureaucracy to investigate & further further  report on "domestic terrorism" which is already defined  in the USC as

activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

The primary aim is "to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity and require the Federal Government to take steps to prevent domestic terrorism."


As I see it the only way that could be worded slightly differently to make it explicit rather than inferred that any such steps follow due legal process is


""to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity and require the Federal Government to take steps using due legal process  to prevent domestic terrorism.""

The activities being investigated & reported on are already a " violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;"

Would it be less 'worrying' if the opening statement of the proposed Bill simply stated """to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity" I wonder especially as the rest of it seems to concentrate on generating powerpoint slideshows & stats for consumption by other bureaucrats ;)

Offline B.D.F.

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The other huge question is when do the things that lead to an act of terrorism become illegal? How about talking about it? Thinking about it? Mentioning a previous event of terrorism, in conversation,  in a public place?

A very, very slippery slope. Thinking about bank robbery is NOT illegal and I cannot imagine how it could be made illegal. With the obvious exception: let's just assume EVERYONE is considering something illegal and take the appropriate action, whatever that might be. Of course we can let those charged with enforcing laws decide what is appropriate.

Everyone is a potential criminal, at all times. That alone is not sufficient to watch, detain, restrain, restrict or do anything even remotely 'protective' because any one (or group) of us may do something illegal. And that is not a slippery slope in the slightest- it is just a clear violation of our laws, both the letter of the law(s) as well as the intent.

Brian

It specifically targets "right wing extremists". Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stopping right wing extremists from committing acts of terrorism. But I'm also all for stopping anybody, right or left, religious or not, "homegrown" or not, white, black, purple from committing acts of terrorism. We already have a large federal agency tasked with this job. Instead it has been weaponized to go after political opponents of the previous administration.
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Offline mikeyw64

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mind you my problem is that you don't have domestic terrorists over there, you have groups of nutters with guns ready & willing to go kill people who disagree with their POV. (and which is already a criminal offence)


Now what we had over here was real domestic terrorism, ie the IRA, who went out indiscriminately planting explosive devices anywhere
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Offline mikeyw64

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It uses right wing extremists as justification/examples however the wording doesn't exclude any other group

It specifically targets "right wing extremists". Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stopping right wing extremists from committing acts of terrorism. But I'm also all for stopping anybody, right or left, religious or not, "homegrown" or not, white, black, purple from committing acts of terrorism. We already have a large federal agency tasked with this job. Instead it has been weaponized to go after political opponents of the previous administration.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Depends where you live and the times you live in .

Back in the 70's & 80's the UK Prevention of Terrorism Acts "Allowed for organisations to be made illegal, making membership an arrestable offence. It was also an offence to soliciting financial support for any listed group, display signs of public support, or attend a meeting supporting a listed group or addressed by a group member. The maximum penalty was ten years' imprisonment and an unlimited fine. "


Fortunately for you guys that side of the pond I don't think any Americans were ever prosecuted for contributing to NORAID

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Terrorism_Acts

The other huge question is when do the things that lead to an act of terrorism become illegal? How about talking about it? Thinking about it? Mentioning a previous event of terrorism, in conversation,  in a public place?

A very, very slippery slope. Thinking about bank robbery is NOT illegal and I cannot imagine how it could be made illegal. With the obvious exception: let's just assume EVERYONE is considering something illegal and take the appropriate action, whatever that might be. Of course we can let those charged with enforcing laws decide what is appropriate.

Everyone is a potential criminal, at all times. That alone is not sufficient to watch, detain, restrain, restrict or do anything even remotely 'protective' because any one (or group) of us may do something illegal. And that is not a slippery slope in the slightest- it is just a clear violation of our laws, both the letter of the law(s) as well as the intent.

Brian
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Offline gPink

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It uses right wing extremists as justification/examples however the wording doesn't exclude any other group
If you don't goosestep with the left you are a right wing extremist.

Offline mikeyw64

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If you don't goosestep with the left you are a right wing extremist.

Whilst that may be true the Proposed Bill does state  (with no reference to Right or Left Wing) that it is  " to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity and require the Federal Government to take steps to prevent domestic terrorism. " (where Domestic Terrorism is as defined in the previously quoted USC which again makes no differentiation between right & left).


Ye sit uses current right wing based "incidents" as examples and there is a lack of any left wing based "incidents" however that could simply be because there have been no examples of home source left wing domestia terrorism in the period reviewed (2000-2016).


"A 2001 study found "Leftist extremists were responsible for three fourths of the officially designated acts of terrorism in America in the 1980s." After 1985, following the dismantling of both groups, one source reports there were no confirmed acts of left-wing terrorism by similar groups.

Incidents of left-wing terrorism dropped off at the end of the Cold War (circa 1989), partly due to the loss of support for communism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism#United_States
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Offline gPink

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mikey, who do you think the leftists in this country are? They call themselves Democrats in case you don't get all the information way over there. They are the ones who wrote the Bill.

Offline mikeyw64

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mikey, who do you think the leftists in this country are? They call themselves Democrats in case you don't get all the information way over there. They are the ones who wrote the Bill.

That's as may be but if it was passed by due process is there anything in there that says it only applies to right wing white supremacist domestic terrorists?

As it is written it applies equally to any domestic terrorist group be they left, right, black, white, yellow or even one legged and could quite easily be used by the Republicans without any amendments ;)



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Offline B.D.F.

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Yes, you are exactly right- a 'bad' law will be used and abused by BOTH sides against their 'enemies', real or imagined.

I do not know if the term gerrymandering works in the UK or not but very basically, it is the act of drawing district lines (lines that encompass groups of voters for the purposes of electing officials usually) such that it works to the best advantage of the party currently in power. You probably have it in the UK also, unfortunately. All very well explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mky11UJb9AY

Now, gerrymandering is a 'bad' thing for the party not being in the majority but a wonderful thing for the party that is in the majority. The minority party always rallies against it but never, ever actually tried to remove it because doing so, while they are in the minority, would freeze the district voting lines in a place not advantageous to them and ALSO remove their ability to again move them to a more advantageous place when THEY are again in the majority. So the broken system goes on and on with no end in sight because both sides want the ability to misuse it when it is again 'their turn'.

As it is with restrictive laws: in the end, the power rests with the people, the gov't or a combination of both. As the gov't gains power through the loss of individual rights, they are not likely to ever be returned no matter which party is in power. So it is not a case of the right vs. the left, it is a case of personal liberty vs. gov't control. And that see- saw only tips one way, toward the gov't, always, as it must in order to maintain order (working under the theory that there are more and more ways to reduce or remove order as humans progress). I cannot speak for Gary (gpink) but I believe what he is resisting is the overall loss of individual freedoms to gov't control in general, not for any or either particular political party, group, etc. I know that is my stance: when it comes to the loss of individual rights and freedoms, it should only be done when not doing so would result in 'serious and immediate danger'. Which, BTW, is the litmus test used by most of our Supreme court justices.

But slipping sideways and introducing new limits and controls to ill- defined 'groups' of people, done under the guise of safety for 'all' or even the best intentions of any kind is always the method used by all gov't's to gain more control over all people, for all time. Only the words change, the intent is always the same and it is almost always negative overall, certainly on balance.

We have First Amendment to guarantee our rights of free speech extremely clearly, and further states that the US Congress 'shall make no law' with regard to religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press and the right to petition the gov't for a redress of grievances. But that same Congress also passed the Sedition Act of 1918, which wiped out all the rights guaranteed in the First Amendment and further, made complaining about the Sedition Act a crime in and of itself. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

The steps to any totalitarian government may be large or small but all should be resisted IMO.

Brian

That's as may be but if it was passed by due process is there anything in there that says it only applies to right wing white supremacist domestic terrorists?

As it is written it applies equally to any domestic terrorist group be they left, right, black, white, yellow or even one legged and could quite easily be used by the Republicans without any amendments ;)
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