Author Topic: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests  (Read 9559 times)

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 12:56:48 PM »
Lather,  when you pull the head (some time in the future) and assuming you don't have the specialized valve spring compressor needed to disassemble a c-14 head, you can again do a "quick and dirty" test for bent valves by pouring some mineral spirits down the intake ports and check for leakage at the valve seats. . Some seepage would be normal due to carbon, but bent valves will just pour the fluid out.

  It's amazing what can be done with a little ingenuity.

  Steve

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 01:02:15 PM »
Interesting. I have only used OEM shims, not on purpose but because I could get them fastest in every instance, and the fit between the shim and the <shim pocket> is too close, IMO for any of that to happen but I never thought about aftermarket shims being too small in diameter. Frankly, I would not have ever thought of it either because I think of them as only having one important dimension, and that is thickness; it never would have crossed my mind that anyone would make them too small in dia. Thanks for that info. Ivan!

Brian

If there is "looseness" in the circumferential fit of the shim, it can "rattle" around and damage the retainer... in a high rpm situation, it's possible for a loose fitting shim to climb out of it's seat and find it's way out of the retainer well.... The more clearance, the more chance there is.

I've seen it on some bikes during valve adjustment... (beat up retainers)

I've also seen it on bikes that were blown up by their owners for various reasons. (on top of the retainer)

I never use aftermarket shims for fear of this... I'm not saying that all shims besides OEM are bad... I just don't know other than what I have seen.

All of this applies to shim under bucket..


Ivan
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 01:39:07 PM »
Brian,

If you look at the underside of the bucket, you'll see the protrusion that contacts the shim (I'm sure that you're very familiar)... think about it.. you know the bucket can rock slightly in it's bore and if the shim is looser than the original design..... I'm sure you can see it now.  ;)


Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 04:10:45 PM »
Here are pictures I have of beat up ex valve shims. Note that one is an OEM and the other is aftermarket with the etched number.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 04:33:52 PM »
Here are pictures I have of beat up ex valve shims. Note that one is an OEM and the other is aftermarket with the etched number.

simple - valve bends,  the head holds the stem down and that creates the clearance I mentioned before. Cam hits bucket, bucket bounces... so does shim. Steve

Offline Gscott

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2018, 06:11:43 AM »
How about with head off pour some type of liquid in combustion chamber, than if you have air compressor blow air thru port and see if you have bubbles.

Offline Freddy

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2018, 05:53:36 PM »
How about with head off pour some type of liquid in combustion chamber, than if you have air compressor blow air thru port and see if you have bubbles.

See reply 20 - air compressor not required.   :doh:
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 06:43:32 AM »
Here are pictures I have of beat up ex valve shims. Note that one is an OEM and the other is aftermarket with the etched number.

Lather,

That's crunched up pretty good.. cracked keepers, chipped up shims and retainers...


BTW, I no longer think that your failure was due to mistimed cams... you ran it for 500 miles with no issues and there was no seizure of the cams... this rules out missing dowels, mixed up cam caps, and oil pipe o-rings which are the causes of camshaft seizures.

I think it probably lost a shim for some reason and that started the chain of catastrophe... either through loose fit, or maybe a downshift that caused the engine to over-rev and cause a valve to float.
(You seem like an experienced rider so the downshift/floating valve theory is probably unlikely)

Measuring/comparing the circumference of the shims may shed some light or rule out.
(if they aren't too beat up)


I am curious to see the head though.


Ivan

Offline kzz1king

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 02:03:44 PM »
I would like to know more about the shims also. Makes me nervous as I got mine from Jakewilsons. I do have about 7500 miles on the adjustment  it with many up to the redline runs so am hoping I am all right :-[
Wayne
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2018, 02:32:34 PM »
You would need to check the diameter of the shim set with a digital or  dial caliper or a micrometer and compare it to the stock oem shim.

Hopefully they measure the same... within .001"

I can't give you a range that is acceptable because I don't know.

Ivan
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 04:25:24 AM by Ivan_ipp »

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2018, 04:24:04 PM »
I've read a lot of bullHockey lately, and figure as people are analyzing why 2 peoples bikes had failures, I'll just toss this in here... because the same people read and can strain out what they desire from it...
so, regarding the top end failures related to recently, and strictly base on my opinion... here goes....

I'm all about sharing CORRECT and Accurate responses based on MY true knowledge of this bikes
mechanics, HAVING OWNED, and PHYSICALLY SERVICED this bike...
I take great exception to "speculative responses, generically given" based on some other bike, or
familiarity that is not DIRECTLY experinced by the person offering the advice, or speculation...
With that said, a lot of this is bogus... and I won't point fingers at "who says what", but I will set the bar
and say with my knowledge, and hands on "Inside this engine"... the following facts...
it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to install, and assemble and make engine "fire up", by installing the cam
retainer caps improperly, fact is, they cannot be installed in any manner other than correct, due to the
hollow pilot dowel locations, and the cam sensor location.

the caps are numbered... and, if you examine the picture I am sharing here, directly from the manual, even someone who has never seen the "inside" of this engine, can clearly see this...
the dowel locations in caps and head, are shown as "A", pretty clear...

and the nomenclature, and physical attributes of each cam cap, are unique to their positions.

again,
It is also virtually impossible to "incorrectly" install (mix up which is which) on the oil supply pipes
locations.. simply said, it can't be assembled "wrong" and/or even get the cover on.
look closely at the diagram. Also the configuration of the valve cover casting itself, relegates it impossible to incorrectly assemble it.

As for "spitting out" a shim...? maybe if your shims were at the thinnest end of the spectrum of those
installed, still within clearance... (meaning clearance is correct, but the shims were the thinnest ones
made for installation...like an 1.750mmThick / Number Mark –25, which hopefully will never be see in
"might" get spit out, if the engine hit like 13K rpm, it may jump out of the recess in the retainer.. but then
again, maybe a "max" sized one (like a #75 shim, @ 2.750mm thk), with the correct clearance, could
also, possibly due to it's mass... but because of the diameter?  No way... all of these shims, aftermarket
and OEM, as a standard, are very strictly controlled as to outside diameter, and it's relationship to the recess in the
retainer cap.   .002", ain't gonna matter...hell, I'd go as far as saying it ain't shifting out of "centralized position even if it was .010" less in Outside diameter.. because that means it can only "shift" to oneside, half that value......open up the engine, remove the cams, pop the bucket out, and put your finger on the OEM shim... and wiggle it... you will see the OEM clearance... it isn't a tight fit by any realm.
I have seen instances in my past, building drag bike Kaws, where after valve regrinds the end of the

stem was not dressed down in conjunction, which allowed the stem to contact the "bucket" (on shim

over bucket KZ engines, Z1's to be specific), which caused the stem retaining collet halves to self eject,

and drop a valve, grenading a top end.. I've never seen a spit out shim on a shim over bucket spit out from anything other than that, or a valve that failed prior, hell those shims sat about 1/8" into a recess.. and even with soft valve springs, you had to work to spit one... I have a '78 Kz in my garage still, and tho it has a lot of work don by my, including some robust valve springs, I could never imagine spitting one out.

But the C14 I find quite bulletproof in it's assembly as seen, and without being a highly modified and poorly done followup. In otherwords, an engine that is in 99.9999% OF THOSE ON THE STREET.

I cannot rule out a "poorly manufactured" valve, with regard to it's groove that retains the keepers, or a
poorly manufactured keeper itself, as these parts are often "sintered powder metal" construction, and
they can fracture., or a piece of debris finding its way into that interface between the keepers and the
retainer, which again could cause a release.

I'm not subject to the "play nice or get kicked out" mentality here, so it's the only place I can currently dismay myths, and incorrect diatribe concerning these bikes, without being threatened by a "board".

keep it real.

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline Freddy

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2018, 05:57:46 PM »
+1
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline just gone

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2018, 11:29:06 PM »
Hopefully they measure the same... within .0001"

Not to get confrontational here, but I hope that was a typo. (probably was)
It seems unlikely to me that there would be any tolerance anywhere on the whole bike that would be less than .001".
If there is, I doubt the diameter of the shims is where it is. Things usually start getting very expensive when size tolerances get more than (OK, less than) .0005".

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2018, 04:24:52 AM »
Not to get confrontational here, but I hope that was a typo. (probably was)
It seems unlikely to me that there would be any tolerance anywhere on the whole bike that would be less than .001".
If there is, I doubt the diameter of the shims is where it is. Things usually start getting very expensive when size tolerances get more than (OK, less than) .0005".


Damn smartphones and fat mechanic's fingers !!

Yes it's a typo Marty, thanks for noticing that.... Corrected.

Carburetor needles need to be held to .0001-.0002 at the base diameter... variances more than this will cause fueling differences that are quite noticeable. The same applies to needle jets. (emulsion tubes)

When measuring needle jet orifices with a pin gauge, differences of a 10'th or 2 will allow quite a bit of rocking if it's on the looser side. Obviously this isn't a carburetor needle jet, but when measuring the proper fit of a machined part so that there isn't excess clearance, there needs to be some type of standard.
(I don't know what the clearance is for valve shim/retainer)

Obviously, the aftermarket shim makers don't haphazardly put their parts to market without a machining standard... but sometimes mistakes are made and not caught during quality control. In the machining world, a whole batch can be bad if it isn't checked, or reported.

Improper clearance here may not even be the cause of Lather's engine sucking it's exhaust valves... but, more clues will be evident when he pulls the head.

Mixed up numbered cam caps by a seasoned mechanic are very unlikely, but a missing dowel pin from one of the caps will for sure cause an alignment/clearance problem and will eventually cause a seizure on the journal that is closest to it. I've seen this firsthand on many of the bikes that I have serviced in the last 35 years that had engine/valvetrain problems.

Ivan

Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2018, 07:05:13 AM »
for waht it's worth I am an experienced rider with over half a million miles and 40+ track days. Experienced backyard mechanic too with 30 plus valve adjusts which is so maddening and why I am eager to determine the cause of failure. I already know it was my fault because that's what the wife says and she's never wrong ;)

Seriously, experienced or not I have been known to #uck up.  Fortunately I am a better rider than a mechanic or i'd be dead by now.

Plan to pull the head soon. I'll also measure shims and report. Now, I gotta go ride.
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2018, 07:37:27 AM »

Mixed up numbered cam caps by a seasoned mechanic are very unlikely, but a missing dowel pin from one of the caps will for sure cause an alignment/clearance problem and will eventually cause a seizure on the journal that is closest to it. I've seen this firsthand on many of the bikes that I have serviced in the last 35 years that had engine/valvetrain problems.

Ivan

   I'm not saying this is incorrect BUT the c-14 has very large cam caps that span over the cam and secures 2 journals. They are unique and cannot be mixed up.  Each cap has 4 dowel pins, so even dropping one out would leave 3, and while not ideal, it think the triangulation would get the cap where it's supposed to go.
 
   Now one thing that hasn't been addressed in Lathers case is if a dowel pin may have fallen out on reassembly. It happened to me on a customers bike . But I'm anal and expect crap like that to happen, so I stopped and fished around forever to find the dowel.  The fact is that if there's anything like that loose and it can jump up and get in the reciprocating assy, really bad stuff is going to happen.

  So Lather, are all the dowel pins accounted for?

  Steve

Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2018, 03:09:10 PM »
I can't answer that for certain right now. The cams and caps are stored at the moment. A large elm fell on the shop back in November and I had to store half my stuff so the workers could work. $15000 worth of damage. Repaired as of three weeks ago but I am still getting back to the normal level of clutter. But I think a stray dowel pin is high on my list of culprits.
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2018, 03:33:41 PM »
I can't answer that for certain right now. The cams and caps are stored at the moment. A large elm fell on the shop back in November and I had to store half my stuff so the workers could work. $15000 worth of damage. Repaired as of three weeks ago but I am still getting back to the normal level of clutter. But I think a stray dowel pin is high on my list of culprits.

If something found its way into the cam lobes and rotating parts, I'm sure there will be some evidence of it.

It will make sense in the end.


Offline just gone

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2018, 05:24:10 PM »
I just love these detective shows, nothing like a good who done it...er... I mean a good what done it.

The part I don't like is...
I can't answer that for certain right now.

... when they end with "to be continued."  :)

Offline kzz1king

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Function and Dyno tests
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2018, 05:44:32 PM »
I dug out my shims and measured some . ProX shims are .0005 smaller than the OEM according to my measurements.

This is an interesting mystery.

Wayne
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1