Will a 2nd gen ABS pump work on 1st gen?

[jamiemac]

I've not looked at one of these but wondering if you can swap the electronics between the two pumps.  Might solve the problem...

This is a brilliant idea and worth looking into. I bet You can swap the control modules.

[Freddy]

I bought a pump for the ZZR as a replacement for my gen 1 connie. Look and fits perfectly. Bled it through and it functions fine. Except that after a 1/2 mile the abs light comes on. And the abs is disabled. Apparently the electronics knows this is not the correct pump. All this to say that the differences are more than meets the eye. Unfortunately...

Sorry to read of that Sporty.  I see from your post 15 in the link below that you may have fitted a 2012 or later unit which won't work for the reason I stated in reply 18.  It may be worth trying the later sensor rings on the wheels to see if that solves the problem but the TC thing would then probably throw up a fault but It'd be an interesting experiment - which you may not be into.  The non-TC bike has 60 front & 50 rear whereas the TC bike has 48 front and 45 rear - same as rings on ZG14  gen 1 and gen 2 respectively.

But swapping the electronics would be a good first try, as suggested.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.15


Also, it's easy to check what your fault code is from the the simple procedure in the FSM>

[sportytoes]

Great points. Yes I should have a look at the fault code for more info. I am sure the pump isn't for a gen two since the TC model has 5 hydraulic lines and not 4. My pump has 4.

Thanks for the info on the sensor rings. I had the same thought and was trying to count them fro parts fiche drawings I found online. Difficult to say the least.

[Freddy]

The gen 2 ZG1400 ABS unit has 5 pipes, not to be confused with the ZZR1400 with TC which has 4 pipes and looks the same a gen 1 ZG1400 unit and non-TC ZZR but with different ECU obviously, for TC. 

Do you happen to know what year ZZR it came from?

[sportytoes]

The unit I used is from a 2012 zzr1400. I have not tried swapping the electronic module from my old 2008 pump to the zzr pump. I will need to look and see how complex that may be to do.

The TC topic is interesting. I'm not convinced (yet) it should be a factor. The TC functions the electronics provide are used to control the engine output and not the operation of the abs. I suspect the wheel sensor rings with a different number of notches is what is at fault. Of that point, the TC needs the information from the wheel speed sensors. So perhaps the abs module does process the sensor data, I don't know.

I second guess that, because there is a half mile riding delay before the abs light comes on. If the abs is getting an incorrect snsor count then should it not take only a few revolutions before the system detects something out of whack and trips the light? I know zero specifics about what the designer implemented in their design. As we know, speculation is usually wrong.

This is an intellectual deversion now. After a month and a half I managed to locate a used pump for my bike. Now I have 3 options:
1. Swap the electronic between the 2 pumps I have.
2. Buy and Swap sensor rings.
3. Use the new used pump
4. Try to reassemble and fix the original failed pump I have (anyone know how to trigger the stuck solenoid to see if it works? I wanted to be able to "exercise" it if I can get it freed.

[sportytoes]

After trying to count sensor ring notches, my own ability to count has now lost calibration.

Michael now trips his mental abs light....

[sportytoes]

It may be worth trying the later sensor rings on the wheels to see if that solves the problem but the TC thing would then probably throw up a fault but It'd be an interesting experiment - which you may not be into.  The non-TC bike has 60 front & 50 rear whereas the TC bike has 48 front and 45 rear - same as rings on ZG14  gen 1 and gen 2 respectively.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.15
Also, it's easy to check what your fault code is from the the simple procedure in the FSM>

So I see there is a very different ratio between f/r between these models, 1.2 vs 1.06. This makes me wonder how the system accounts for differences in tire sizes. My rear tire is not the stock size. But the kawai is able to compensate in stock configuration. I think this is done when you first start the bike and roll a few revolutions to turn off the abs warning light. It is performing a calculation/calibration.

My light turns off after rolling about 10-12 ft. It seems to clear the calculation step. I am on this train of thought since I am speculating on swapping the zx14 sensor rings onto my bike to see if this will allow me to use the zx14 abs pump i have installed now. My wheel sensors are for a ZG 2008 and the pump is a zx14. After a half mile the abs light comes back on. Used sensor rings are going to cost around $100. My devotion to the scientific process is in conflict with a smoldering debit card.

[Freddy]

Good posts ST, I like you're thinking      

I suspect that the ABS ECU is calibrated to cope with a 5-10% variation in tyre size front/rear for the purpose of accommodating normal wear & replacement at different times, even a 190/55-17 on the rear.  However, the gen 1 rings (60/50) on your bike with the gen 2 ABS calibration (48/45) you now have, represents a variation of 13.2075471%.  Well, that's my thinking.   


The other thought that comes to mind if fitting gen 2 rings is the TC lamp on inst cluster factor.  As the gen 1 ZG doesn't have it but the gen 2 ZZR apparently does (like gen 2 ZG presumably), there may or may not be an issue with that, just surmising.   

[sportytoes]

At this point my "new" used pump has yet to arrive. In the mean time, I have tried this:

I have the 2012 ZZR1200 pump installed with the resultant ABS light warning. So I took the suggestion above and removed the black plastic electronics piece from the old 2008 pump and swapped it onto the ZZR1200 mechanicals. It is an hour job just to dig into the bike to get to the pump but only 4 screws hold the CPU unto the pump assembly. I was able to get the pump loose enough without having to disconnect the hydraulic lines to remove the CPU. Got it reassembled to the ZZR1200 pump mechanical. Cruised around with this change at less than 25 mph in the apartment complex and no error light yet.

Next check will be to properly gear up and go out and purposely try and lock up the brakes and see if it all works (without finding out it doesn't and crashing). Fortunatley this all started with a rear brake that didn't work so I will go try and just lock up the rear brake for now...

[jamiemac]

Cool update! Hope that ECU swap works!

[jwh20]

If the hardware is identical, which it appears that it is, they just customized some bit of the electronics, likely just the firmware, for the different models.  This is common.  I've never swapped the electronics between ABS units but have done a number of times for hard disk drives that have a failed electronics board. 

[Freddy]

Cool update! Hope that ECU swap works!

What he said.   

[sportytoes]

Worked perfectly. Mashing the brakes triggered the anti-lock front and rear and everything is working as it should. Rode about 75 miles today with no issues. I now have an un needed used pump I bought for a 08/09 concours that I did not need to use. PM me if anyone is interested in it.

That only leaves a rear TPMS left to swap out and my "new" used 2008 bike is back to 100% operational.

[Freddy]

 

Why not fit a new battery to the TPMS sensor?

[kwakrider]

Worked perfectly. Mashing the brakes triggered the anti-lock front and rear and everything is working as it should. Rode about 75 miles today with no issues. I now have an un needed used pump I bought for a 08/09 concours that I did not need to use. PM me if anyone is interested in it.

That only leaves a rear TPMS left to swap out and my "new" used 2008 bike is back to 100% operational.

Sweet!! 

[TPXX]

Worked perfectly. Mashing the brakes triggered the anti-lock front and rear and everything is working as it should. Rode about 75 miles today with no issues. I now have an un needed used pump I bought for a 08/09 concours that I did not need to use. PM me if anyone is interested in it.

That only leaves a rear TPMS left to swap out and my "new" used 2008 bike is back to 100% operational.

Sportytoes, I sent you a pm about the extra abs pump you have.

[sportytoes]

Thanks for giving it a home. Let us know how the repairs go. I flushed fluid through both circuites before sending it out. Made things a bit messier but wanted to be sure nothing had congealed while it was on the shelf. Hopefully it gets you back on the road in short order.