Author Topic: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)  (Read 7202 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 01:41:59 PM »
I think welding over the weld would be less than desirable.

Again, if you really think you have to strengthen the weldment, I would suggest adding something like 1/2" to 3/4" wide strips, directly over the welds, and welding these new strips to the tube and tabs directly without involving the original welds. Even short pieces will go a long way to reinforcing what is there, maybe 2) pieces 1" long each, at each end of the tab (or wherever they have to be to avoid them interfering with anything on the bike).

Brian

Thanks Brian. So you think filling the gap between welds with more steel would be bad?  It would no doubt have the same problem as the current welds but there would be more of it at least perhaps with small air gaps at each end so as not to touch either current weld ( they would probably get thermally touched). The only other thing I can think of is a slight triangulation piece from the back of the tube to the bottom of the bracket.  :-\   
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Offline just gone

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2017, 02:52:49 PM »
I think welding over the weld would be less than desirable.

Agreed, I was thinking in between the current welds on the replacement sub frame. That is if the current bracket is pictured as a stretched out U shape with welds at the top of the U then filling the middle with new steel welded at the top (subframe) and the bottom (bracket) would make the bracket look more like a numeral 3 laying on it's back with a thickened middle member (WHOA! boys. a big easy boys! here.) No matter the heat sink used, I imagine the existing welds would be thermally touched but not actually touched by the new welding. Anyway that's what I'm thinking now, I'll see if I can find any local welders with motorcycle frame building experience to assist me.

Rest assured Brian, I'm giving much weight to what you are telling me. After my experience with the 12 volt freezer hooked up to a Veskimo debacle, I've learned my lesson. 

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2017, 03:29:28 PM »
Marty,
As I get older, and weaker, I feel ike this bike is getting bigger and heavier each year....
So don't feel bad, when I bought mine I could roll it around and uphill easily, now simply moving it around and out of the garage has me sweating bullets about dropping it.... heheheh

As for welding, from the looks of those fractures, I would have no issue grinding and rewelding them all with a TIG machine and good rod, I don't think it looks as bad as it is assumed. I would not MIG weld it with a home use tabletop wire welder, with flux wire tho, it would just spatter and not get good penetration...

R&R is best.. now I have to look at mine, as I have my trailer hitch tied in there.....argggggggh

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 04:06:15 PM »
The problem is not heating the original welds, it  is the admixture of different metals; there are at least two there now, the parent metal(s) (they may be different) along with the weld. It is the area of the parent metal where it actually mates (Easy!) with the parent material, this is called the admixture. The area right next to this on the parent side is the HAZ, which is where I believe your weldment has failed. What I would not do is put more or replacement weld(s) into these areas (admixture, HAZ) 'cause it is not likely to create a sound metallurgical bond or material.

There is a lot going on when steel is welded and a lot of it is not desirable. Modern (post WWII) welding can be stronger than the parent material but unless the process is closely controlled and the metallurgy is understood (this is the part where we do not know what the steel(s) Kawasaki used nor the welding material or process comes in) it is not something that happens routinely.

As I said, I would add straps that straddle the original welds just to keep away from them if adding anything to the existing weldment. As far as the method, I would suggest MIG (short arc) as opposed to TIG. MIG generally does less damage to the parent material, especially at the joint of the two (parent metal and weld). TIG is a fine process but because each part of the process is seperated (heating, puddle control, filler metal added) and varies with the welder, it is unfortunately common to over-penetrate (a big Easy Boys on this one). TIG works best when both materials are the same along with the filler rod, if used, and the welder knows how to crater- out properly to avoid shrinkage cracking.

Another entirely different process to consider is brazing. Often considered 'inferior' to welding, it actually is very tolerant of variables and makes an excellent joint between two pieces of steel, often competing with a good weld and almost always bettering a [less than good] weld. This only applies to low carbon steels but we can safely assume the entire frame is made of that on anything like a motorcycle. And brazing is something easily done with nothing more than a fuel / oxygen torch, a filler rod of bronze and some flux. Worth considering IMO.

And finally, if you can find someone that has a DC welder and is competent with stick welding, grinding out the old weld and putting a pair of beads in with 7018 rod is probably the best way to 'shotgun' all the welding and metallurgical considerations; this rod yields a strong, exceedingly tough weld that is compatible with virtually all weldable steels, plus it is extremely tolerant of variations in the welding process. If you do not believe me, ask Electric Boat....   ;D

Brian

Agreed, I was thinking in between the current welds on the replacement sub frame. That is if the current bracket is pictured as a stretched out U shape with welds at the top of the U then filling the middle with new steel welded at the top (subframe) and the bottom (bracket) would make the bracket look more like a numeral 3 laying on it's back with a thickened middle member (WHOA! boys. a big easy boys! here.) No matter the heat sink used, I imagine the existing welds would be thermally touched but not actually touched by the new welding. Anyway that's what I'm thinking now, I'll see if I can find any local welders with motorcycle frame building experience to assist me.

Rest assured Brian, I'm giving much weight to what you are telling me. After my experience with the 12 volt freezer hooked up to a Veskimo debacle, I've learned my lesson.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline just gone

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 05:40:21 PM »
Thanks for all the info Brian!!!!! You've given me a couple of good options there it seems for not screwing up the existing metal.

... now I have to look at mine, as I have my trailer hitch tied in there.....argggggggh

Good point MOB, I hadn't thought of that. You're probably in good shape since my problems most likely came from side loads and your hitch probably causes loads at a right angle to where mine do. Still others with hitches that might have just cranked the bolts without noticing if any side loads (from say bad fitment of the hitch hardware) were being applied could have started the cracking process.
I've seen several photos of people strapping their bikes down to trailers using the MCE saddlebag guards which could cause the same problems. Might also be a good idea for pillion passengers weighing more than 160 lbs (or so +/-?) to be cautioned from standing on the passenger foot pegs when mounting the bike.  ;D

Offline rrsperry

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2017, 06:49:01 PM »
Dear god you all are overthinking this. If you can get a replacement go $50, do it. But I'd have zero problem grinding the mig weld out, inspecting the tube and re welding the tab. It's not structural. It's a mounting bracket...(provided the base tube isn't cracked.)
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Offline Cuda

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Re: Subframe Bracket broken (welds)
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 09:24:37 PM »
Dear god you all are overthinking this. If you can get a replacement go $50, do it. But I'd have zero problem grinding the mig weld out, inspecting the tube and re welding the tab. It's not structural. It's a mounting bracket...(provided the base tube isn't cracked.)

Really , I agree

I have mig, tig , arc, yes I can weld , my full time mechanic can weld , but I have a old employee that REALLY knows how to weld,  multiple   certifications , he comes over on Saturdays

when you see a weld from a REAL professional it is NOT built up like that , that is a machine weld , a real good weld is much flatter, penetration is KEY and you can always make extra passes, BUT a real strong weld

is a ARC weld  with better metal than a mig , which is soft steel. To me proper penetration never happen (BDF easy girls)
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