Author Topic: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO  (Read 7956 times)

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2018, 04:16:44 PM »
Ah, see, there you go, clogging a lot of "I wants" up with reality, which is never received well by the public.  ;D  Adding C.C. to the C-14 as currently available would be problematic and although absolutely doable, it would show up in the bottom- line cost to the consumer who seems invariably reluctant / resistant to paying for it.

Except my postings weren't at all about adding cruise control to the currently available model.  It was about adding cruise control to a NEW model that would presumably already be throttle-by-wire....
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2018, 05:16:53 PM »
Ah, see, there you go, clogging a lot of "I wants" up with reality, which is never received well by the public.  ;D

Adding C.C. to the C-14 as currently available would be problematic and although absolutely doable, it would show up in the bottom- line cost to the consumer who seems invariably reluctant / resistant to paying for it.

But there is a solution: all the "I wants" can get together and devise  / design their own CC. (an similar) for the C-14 at a 'cut- rate' price, without the concerns for liability or other, outside, costs.

ROFLMAO

Brian

Not necessarily . Hypothetically , what if cc added $100 to the cost of the bike, but the folks in the marketing dept say that if it has cc, keeping the current price, they could sell 10,000 more bikes and that would more than make up for extra $50 the cc cost? That’s how it works in the real world.

Offline Cuda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 782
  • Country: us
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2018, 08:10:51 PM »
Because of the exchange rate McCruise is only $700. something plus shipping,  :D

Been about six years for me , I'm happy and I paid $1,000.+

Every year the same talk, Next year folks,

It's like talking about the Buffalo  Bills or Cleveland Browns

NEXT YEAR folks :rotflmao: :banghead:
Old and SLOW                   COG 11405
Gods waiting room Naples
2011 Atomic  Silver

Offline PlaynInPeoria

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
  • Country: us
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2018, 06:15:37 AM »
... but that is very minimal for cruise control on an already throttle-by-wire design (which itself WILL take a lot of development, but that is a change already being made),

So if you take out the expensive part, it's very inexpensive?   Makes perfect sense.


what cost there would be is then spread over a million production units over several or more years, meaning something like a few or several dollars per bike.

If they were selling a million bikes, would they be phasing out the model?

I'm sure the C14 product manager doesn't sit around all day, wondering how he can possibly improve the bike. On the contrary, he probably has a rule in his email that automatically deletes any email that mentions cruise control. Why? Because he's been told in no uncertain terms by a legion of bean counters that he's losing money on the model as is, and if he adds cost to it, he'll be taken out back and hacked apart by bone saws (it's  all the rage now).

Apparently BMW and Yamaha have the market cornered? Honda hasn't updated the ST1300 in years and Suzuki doesn't even try. I've had CC and do love it but I'm not willing to do a Rostra when a throttle lock accomplishes 75% of the task for <$20.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 06:59:16 AM by PlaynInPeoria »
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2018, 12:42:51 PM »
S

Apparently BMW and Yamaha have the market cornered? Honda hasn't updated the ST1300 in years and Suzuki doesn't even try. I've had CC and do love it but I'm not willing to do a Rostra when a throttle lock accomplishes 75% of the task for <$20.

That's being very generous. Unless you live where it is totally flat and there is no wind,it is nowhere close to doing 75% of what cc can do. Go up a hill, it maintains your speed, go down a hill, maintains your speed, and if you have to slow down, a simple pus of a button takes you back up to that speed, no throttle lock can do that. Plus,  speed maintained within .5 mph, so steady that it helps mpg, again, throttle lock can't do that.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2018, 01:15:50 PM »
But the post I responded to still makes sense and I believe is quite correct: it will cost something, and almost always more than is initially thought, to add absolutely anything to a production product or even change it in any way.

As to a new model, it appears that the entire sport- tourer, and perhaps the entire recreational vehicle market too boot, is pretty soft, so that makes adding a newer model much less attractive to a manufacturer. So the chances of a major update to a relatively slow seller such as the C-14 is not overly likely IMO. Of course that is just a wild guess on my part, I really have no idea what may be in the pipeline but it is pretty obvious that recreational vehicle sales are down.

And as always, Kawasaki has much better info. on what is desireable by the public than 'we' do so perhaps while it seems that C.C. is a really huge aspect of a new tourer- type motorcycle, not that many people are willing to pay more for a bike that comes with it, at least right now. ??

Brian

Except my postings weren't at all about adding cruise control to the currently available model.  It was about adding cruise control to a NEW model that would presumably already be throttle-by-wire....
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2018, 01:23:57 PM »
I could not agree more- you are exactly correct. The problem is that 10,000 number; if it is more like 1,500, then the slimmer profit theory will not work. And it does not seem that sales are weak across the board. Plus, there are a couple of truly dominant models out there that sort of 'own' the touring market, GoldWing and the BMW 1600. Sure there are other 'touring' bikes but really, they are just very slightly different versions of what the company already makes as main- line motorcycles (Kawasaki Vulcans, Harley 'tourer' versions, etc.).

We I am afraid of is that Kawasaki may simply drop the sport tourer line entirely and let Yamaha have it for example. The same way everyone has dropped tourers (full dressed tourers) to Honda and BMW- no other company even bothers anymore.

All of that said, at least Kawasaki is sharing development and a big proportion of tooling expenses with another model besides the C-14, the ZX 14. Yamaha, for example, has nothing else to share building / designing / coding expenses with the FJR as it is a stand- alone model for that company. So with a little luck, the C-14 may live on yet.... ?

Brian

Not necessarily . Hypothetically , what if cc added $100 to the cost of the bike, but the folks in the marketing dept say that if it has cc, keeping the current price, they could sell 10,000 more bikes and that would more than make up for extra $50 the cc cost? That’s how it works in the real world.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline PlaynInPeoria

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
  • Country: us
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2018, 02:49:54 PM »
That's being very generous. Unless you live where it is totally flat and there is no wind,it is nowhere close to doing 75% of what cc can do. Go up a hill, it maintains your speed, go down a hill, maintains your speed, and if you have to slow down, a simple pus of a button takes you back up to that speed, no throttle lock can do that. Plus,  speed maintained within .5 mph, so steady that it helps mpg, again, throttle lock can't do that.

That's your interpretation.  My goal is to rest my wrist periodically and a throttle lock does that.   I've put 73k on my bike and never had a cruise.  I would certainly take one but I obviously don't need one.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2018, 03:24:42 PM »
So if you take out the expensive part, it's very inexpensive?   Makes perfect sense.

In reply #36, you replied to something I said, mostly out of context.  What I was originally answering was the concept of a new model of Concours.  Not an add-on to the existing bike.  The presumption I was using is that it would already be a totally new ECU, with all the costs and R&D that would already go into that.  It would already be throttle-by-wire, like all new models already are.  Adding cruise control or multiple maps into the mix of a totally new model is not a significant cost (it is almost no cost).

Quote
If they were selling a million bikes, would they be phasing out the model?

300,000,   500,000 whatever.  The point is it would be greatly diluted.  Actually, we really don't know how many C14's have been sold over the last 11 years in the whole world.... Kawasaki keeps that number pretty secret for some reason.  I would love to know, though.  We also don't know if they are phasing out the model to prepare for a new one, or just making the whole concept go "poof".

Quote
I'm sure the C14 product manager doesn't sit around all day, wondering how he can possibly improve the bike. On the contrary, he probably has a rule in his email that automatically deletes any email that mentions cruise control. Why? Because he's been told in no uncertain terms by a legion of bean counters that he's losing money on the model as is, and if he adds cost to it, he'll be taken out back and hacked apart by bone saws (it's  all the rage now).

I know they are not going to add cruise control to the existing model.   Not gonna happen.  It is too late in the game, and would be far too expensive to retrofit an existing design.  It would only happen during a major redesign, assuming the sales numbers are there to support a next generation of Concours.  I hope there will be, though.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2018, 03:44:56 PM »
As to a new model, it appears that the entire sport- tourer, and perhaps the entire recreational vehicle market too boot, is pretty soft, so that makes adding a newer model much less attractive to a manufacturer. So the chances of a major update to a relatively slow seller such as the C-14 is not overly likely IMO. Of course that is just a wild guess on my part, I really have no idea what may be in the pipeline but it is pretty obvious that recreational vehicle sales are down.

All we can do is wait and see.  It doesn't help when they came out with the H2SX as some type of small, chain driven, low-range, less comfortable, wimpy warranty, quasi-"sport tourer."

We I am afraid of is that Kawasaki may simply drop the sport tourer line entirely and let Yamaha have it for example.

That is my fear, too.

Quote
All of that said, at least Kawasaki is sharing development and a big proportion of tooling expenses with another model besides the C-14, the ZX 14.

Exactly.  This is why I have been keeping a sharp eye on what is happening with the ZX-14.  Its days are likely  numbered too...  They might do the same thing they did in 2008 and come out with some new, large, super-sport bike and a companion sport-tourer model derived from that.  Or they could just look at the H2 and simply drop the ZX completely, and with it, any hopes of an economical way of creating a "true" sport-tourer.

Being the pessimist that I am, I have a feeling the Concours is dead as a concept.... along with the large, super-sport ZX.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline MtnRider

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2018, 06:01:34 PM »
Being the pessimist that I am, I have a feeling the Concours is dead as a concept.... along with the large, super-sport ZX.

Don't give up hope.  These things tend to be cyclical. There's likely to be a resurgence when the current adv bike enthusiasm wins wains. Or something.....     :o

typo corrected
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 06:17:26 PM by MtnRider »

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2018, 03:54:31 PM »
"Being the pessimist that I am, I have a feeling the Concours is dead as a concept.... along with the large, super-sport ZX."

I believe that . Look, what is the market for a C14? I'm guessing most customers are men, age 40-55, make a minimum of $70K a year, have a lot of riding experience and want a sporty touring bike that costs $16000.

Now, before anyone chimes in says that they are 21 years old, make $40K a year, etc, keep in mind, I said "most". This is the market.\
It is a very narrow market! Also, each year, that number gets smaller. HD has found that out the hard way. For the most part, our young'ins are not as interested in motorcycles as they were decades ago. If anything, they see them as a cheap alternative to cars. Look at the most popular bikes, they are small, like the Gromm, little putters.
Twenty years ago, Cadillac noticed that the average buyer of its cars was getting older and older. They realized that if they didn't change their product to
appeal to younger people, their market would die. So, they did.
Yes, people are still buying sport tourers, but they are a dying breed. Suzuki doesn't offer one. Honda? Do people still buy that ST V bike? BMW? Yes. Yamaha still updates the fudger. Moto Guzzi stopped making them two years ago. That bummed me out because I really would love to own a 'Guzzi again.
Kawa, I think, is testing the waters with the sc motor.If it succeeds, expect other bikes to use something similar. If not, it will merely disappear. Suzuki did the same thing with their V4 motors, plopping them in a cruiser and a tourer. I had the V4 1200 cruiser and it basically was a mediocre bike with an awesome motor that didn't sell.
Another problem is that long term, the internal combustion motor is on the way out. Already, most of the attention in cars is on electric, not gas and some companies (like Volvo)have already announced when they will stop making gas only cars. I have no idea how motorcycles will fare with electric motors, but keep in mind that if cars go electric, gas stations will start to disappear, making it harder to hard core tour with a gas bike.I know that this may not start happening for ten years, but I have had my C14 for seven years and my Suzuki for 22 years, so in the big scheme of things for me, that is not too far off.
These are very tough tough times for motorcycle companies. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of them were to merge.I remember it was not long agao when Suzuki stopped bringing in new bikes. They look the weakest. Heck, I can't remember the last time they came out with something new. The only big selling bike that they had was the Bandit 1200, sold in the '90's which used an oil cooled motor from the '80's; go figure.
I will say this- considering how well my '11 C14 has served me, how will the bike performs and how you could probably buy a 2019 for $15K, I consider the C14 a massive bargain and wish I could buy another for if and when my current one wears out.

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2018, 07:11:08 PM »
I will say this- considering how well my '11 C14 has served me, how well the bike performs and how you could probably buy a 2019 for $15K, I consider the C14 a massive bargain and wish I could buy another for if and when my current one wears out.

You can wait to see if there is another Concours and if there is, and it is compelling, then there is that.  If not, and the 2019 (or whatever) is the last year, then grab one at a good price and extend your Concours experience (if you can tolerate the color).

As far as electric, I would love an electric motorcycle.  Gobs of instant, quiet, efficient, simple, reliable power.  But until there is a huge improvement in battery technology, there just isn't enough space on a motorcycle for a reasonably-sized battery for a reasonable range (and also at a reasonable price).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline PlaynInPeoria

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
  • Country: us
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2018, 05:54:52 AM »
If it can't do 1000 miles in a day, it's not a touring bike in my mind.  I think they will get there though.

I have no idea what the life expectancy of a C14 but it will most likely outlive my riding career.  But there are a lot of really good deals on nicely farkled C14's now.  My brother and I own identical 'red' 2012's, mine has 73k and isn't bad, his has < 30k and looks better than new, because that's how he is.  I may buy his one day. His has the cool tri-oval Delkovec that I should have got, the Mountain Runner flash too, I have the rev before that.  If I could buy his, swap a couple parts onto his and do it for 3k net, that's a win.

I know of a 2016 that has a ton of stuff for 6 or 7k.
2012 "root beer" C14 - unlinked brakes, reflash, LED headlights, Walmart orange city lights, LOUD horn, Laam seat, radar detector for ahem, reasons.
2013 Aprilia Tuono, 2009 CRF-150F

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2018, 04:00:13 PM »
I was near the Eisenhower tunnel in CO ( about 12,000’ alt) when a Tesla blew past me like I was standing still.
No oxygen, no problem!
Gotta love the electric motor!

Offline olie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: us
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2018, 07:07:36 PM »
good reading here in this interview of the French general manager... Google is your friend...

http://www.lofficielducycle.com/article/patrick-marchal-kawasaki-2018-sera-positive-que-2017

"""...Which model do you miss in the range today?
What we would like to have, it would be a successor for the 1400 GTR, a GT bike that we have more in the range, but the slot will be partly covered by the H2 SX. A big trail type adventure capable of competing with a BMW R 1200 GS would also be interesting. """
13 Blue Connie, 8/4/2013
16 Green Versys 1k
11 Red Vette

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2018, 07:12:19 PM »
What we would like to have, it would be a successor for the 1400 GTR, a GT bike that we have more in the range, but the slot will be partly covered by the H2 SX.

Probably a mistranslation of "a GT bike that has more range", which certainly can't be filled at all by the H2 SX, which already has considerably less range (and less comfort, less reliability, less warranty, less wind protection, less storage, less affordability, less etc).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline olie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
  • Country: us
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2018, 07:13:41 PM »
Euro rumors... https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2018/october/bikesocials-bike-news-round-up-26-10-18

1:  Four new Kawasaki coming to EICMA

A countdown timer on Kawasaki’s US website hints that the firm is planning to unveil four new models at the EICMA show in Milan in early November. The firm is using the image you see here to publicise the event, clearly showing four covered-up machines lined up behind the 2019 models that it’s already revealed – the new ZX-6R, updated ZX-10R variants and the more powerful 2019 Ninja H2 models.

So what are the four covered bikes? Well, we know about two of them for certain. One is an updated Versys 1000, which we’ve written about here. And another guaranteed new model is the naked Z400, a derivative of the Ninja 400. Again, we’ve written about the Z400 before.

So what are the other two?

The word from Japan is that one will be a new retro machine to replace the old W800. We’ve been told to expect a water-cooled parallel twin rather than the old W800’s air-cooled motor, but other than that the new W is said to follow all the same retro ideals as its predecessor. And with the likes of Triumph’s latest Bonneville range selling so well, it makes sense for Kawasaki to get back in on that action.

The final bike is believed to be a mildly revised Ninja H2 SX sports tourer. That also makes sense, as the H2 SX is one of the only bikes left in Kawasaki’s range that’s still listed as a ‘2018’ model rather than a ‘2019’ version on the firm’s website. Quite what will be changed on the bike remains a mystery, but we’d bank on electronic suspension, at least on the ‘SE’ model.

13 Blue Connie, 8/4/2013
16 Green Versys 1k
11 Red Vette

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8869
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2018, 09:42:09 PM »
Euro rumors...[...]

The final bike is believed to be a mildly revised Ninja H2 SX sports tourer. That also makes sense, as the H2 SX is one of the only bikes left in Kawasaki’s range that’s still listed as a ‘2018’ model rather than a ‘2019’ version on the firm’s website. Quite what will be changed on the bike remains a mystery, but we’d bank on electronic suspension, at least on the ‘SE’ model.

Yawn.

So take the same short wheelbase, sub-par range, chain drive, non-adjustable small windscreen, wimpy warranty, expensive price tag... and perhaps raise the price another $3000 for electronic suspension.  Somehow that wouldn't surprise me at all.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: New Models to Debut at AIMEXPO
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2018, 08:53:55 AM »
That bike looks like it would appeal most to a male in his mid 20’s. Problem with that is a male in his mid 20’s is the least likely to be able to afford the bike and insurance. That’s why the under 400cc bikes are so popular .
Looking at the H2 at the dealer, I couldn’t see myself doing days of touring on it. Putting saddle bags on it and calling it a sport tour is like putting silicone implants on a hag and then calling her a model.