Author Topic: We're doomed!  (Read 19164 times)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2017, 05:23:05 AM »
So again, while we (US) have a lot of shootings / murders, come visit me and we can sit outside in lawn chairs and wait for the most exciting things to happen.... and I betcha' you get bored and fall asleep before any such 'event' appears.

Brian

Why just a few weekends ago, I was sitting outside in said lawn chair under a beautiful maple tree (no burls unfortunately) watching traffic go by in Southside VA (US 58).  I was hoping to see the odd ambulance, fire engine, or police car with lights a blazing go by, but sadly nothing happened.  Wait a minute, something did happen!  The local porta potty guy came by in his truck.  Talked about that for a few minutes, let me tell you!  Didn't get a chance to fall asleep with all that excitement.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2017, 05:37:17 AM »
Not sure who you are addressing here Gary, and I assume it is not me but this has been an interesting conversation.

One more thought as something to consider: I do not believe we have even addressed or even identified the real problems in our society and in fact are making some really poor decisions because of that. We are treating the symptoms without even acknowledging the source of the problem. I will give two examples as I see them:

1) We have a crime is some specific areas of the US, almost all that are socio- economically disadvantages. Call them what you want, slums, the 'inner cities', whatever. And of course the two basic problems are a) gangs and b) simply generic bad behavior due to a breakdown or simple lack of the social fabric and mechanism of our society. High school drop- out rates puts a lot of young people on the street. A lack of jobs forces all residents to take low paying jobs (further promoting poverty) and drives people into gangs and drug trafficking. We treat this problem with stronger law enforcement and harsher treatment, along with LOTS of money spent on programs designed to occupy these people, manufacturer jobs and so forth. But the truly disastrous problem is drug trafficing and gang affiliation (and their prime focus is to corner the markets on drug trafficking.... capitalism working exactly as it should). I propose this is not the root cause of the problem at all and is, in fact, a gross miss- identification of the real problem: The real problem is all the middle- class, mostly young, white people who travel to these areas to buy drugs for recreational use, thus fueling the ENTIRE problem with the influx of money. Think about it for one moment: how would inner city kids be able to procure illicit firearms, have the ability to form gangs and so on without a supply of money? And what is that supply, robbing the other, disadvantaged neighbor who is just as poor as the crime's perpetrator? That does not make sense and cannot be the case. Again it is outside (outside the trouble areas), far more affluent areas fueling these problem areas by buying illicit drugs. 1) identify the problem, and it is that flow of money. 2) Do something about it: suppose we start arresting, detaining and punishing the people supplying the money at the lowest level, the casual drug user? Dry up the money supply and the other problems are no longer fueled and either stop or are greatly reduces. I would take credit for this ingenious insight but c'mon, there is no better example on the planet than Prohibition: outlawing alcohol, in one single step, created organized crime in the US.

So lets' review: Certain areas of Chicago have a gun problem. False, certain areas of Chicago procure firearms do to the nature of the business of supplying illicit drugs to the rest of America. Certain areas of Chicago have a violence problem. False, certain areas of Chicago have a high instance of whatever is required to maintain or increase their base business, supplying drugs to America. Stop the flow of money from illegal behavior in Chicago and the major problems disappear. Of course that will not make Chicago problem- free, but it would get the artificial problems out of the way and then we could address the real problems of education, jobs, and provide an workable infrastructure instead of spending all our time and resources trying to stop a problem with one hand while we fuel and encourage it with the other.

Illegal immigration has an even more direct solution and again, we are miss- identifying the base problem. But I will save that one for later

We are trying to 'fix' that which is not a core problem in the first place.

Thank you , gentlemen. I appreciate the candor as the question was asked in all seriousness.
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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2017, 06:11:00 AM »
Brian, my tongue in cheek take away from that is 1) It's not the Mexican cartels or the Colombian drug lords or the Afgan taliban that supplies the US and the world with drugs. They are just a bunch of opportunists trying to make a buck. Rather, it's anyone who has smoked a joint, packed their nose or missed a vein that's at fault. So if the market is eliminated, killed, imprisoned or lobotimized those murdurous butchers would go back to a peaceful agrarian lifestyle and not be corrupted by an immoral society. 2) Make cash and barter illegal and no one would have a means to procure anything not fedgov approved.

And as far as the splitting hairs about Chiraq. From a downstate point of view there is little distinction whether it's southside, northside, downtown it's all the same problem.

As far as fixing problems that's what the fedgov is for and it's here to help you. Just ask anyone who has been enabled by the gov to remain in a state of poverty and depression for generations.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2017, 07:32:55 AM »
Yeah, I probably expressed myself poorly, and my ideas may well be incorrect. 

Brian

Brian, my tongue in cheek take away from that is 1) It's not the Mexican cartels or the Colombian drug lords or the Afgan taliban that supplies the US and the world with drugs. They are just a bunch of opportunists trying to make a buck. Rather, it's anyone who has smoked a joint, packed their nose or missed a vein that's at fault. So if the market is eliminated, killed, imprisoned or lobotimized those murdurous butchers would go back to a peaceful agrarian lifestyle and not be corrupted by an immoral society. 2) Make cash and barter illegal and no one would have a means to procure anything not fedgov approved.

And as far as the splitting hairs about Chiraq. From a downstate point of view there is little distinction whether it's southside, northside, downtown it's all the same problem.

As far as fixing problems that's what the fedgov is for and it's here to help you. Just ask anyone who has been enabled by the gov to remain in a state of poverty and depression for generations.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2017, 07:52:26 AM »
apologies for almost going back to the original subject matter ;)


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Offline Classvino

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2017, 08:22:43 AM »
Why just a few weekends ago, I was sitting outside in said lawn chair under a beautiful maple tree (no burls unfortunately) watching traffic go by in Southside VA (US 58).  I was hoping to see the odd ambulance, fire engine, or police car with lights a blazing go by, but sadly nothing happened.  Wait a minute, something did happen!  The local porta potty guy came by in his truck.  Talked about that for a few minutes, let me tell you!  Didn't get a chance to fall asleep with all that excitement.

Reminds me of a Python skit :

June the 4th, 1973, was much like any other summer's day in Peterborough, and Ralph Melish, a file clerk at an insurance company, was on his way to work as usual when... (da dum!) Nothing happened! (dum dum da dum) Scarcely able to believe his eyes, Ralph Melish looked down. But one glance confirmed his suspicions. Behind a bush, on the side of the road, there was *no* severed arm. No dismembered trunk of a man in his late fifties. No head in a bag. Nothing. Not a sausage. For Ralph Melish, this was *not* to be the start of any trail of events which would not, in no time at all, involve him in neither a tangled knot of suspicion, nor any web of lies, which would, had he been not uninvolved, surely have led him to no other place, than the central criminal court of the Old Bailey.

But it was not to be (ominous music returns). Ralph Melish reached his office in Dullsells Street in Peterborough, at 9:05 a.m., exactly the same time as he usually got in!

Enid: Morning, Mr. Melish
Ralph: Morning, Enid

Enid, a sharp-eyed, clever young girl, who had been with the firm for only 4 weeks, couldn't help noticing the complete absence of tiny but tell-tale blood stains on Mr. Melish's clothing. Nor did she notice anything strange in Mr. Melish's behaviour that whole morning. Nor the next morning. Nor at any time before or since the entire period she worked for that firm.

Ralph: Have the new paper clips arrived, Enid?
Enid: Yes, they're over there, Mr. Melish.
Ralph: (faintly) Oh...

But for the lack of any untoward circumstances for this young secretary to notice, and the total non-involvement of Mr. Melish in anything illegal, the full weight of the law would have insured that Ralph Auldus Melish would have ended up like all who challenge the fundamental laws of our society. In an iron coffin with spikes on the inside.

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Offline Rhino

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2017, 08:57:30 AM »
apologies for almost going back to the original subject matter ;)


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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2017, 03:26:27 PM »
Nah, I am still stuck on other subject :)

I don't think it is drug users or suppliers or gangs.   People will always want drugs, so they will always be supplied.  Gangs are a symptom of the underlying problem.  Take drugs out of the picture and they would just shift to gambling or theft, or robbery or extortion, or whatever.

I believe the fundamental problem is the lack of properly raising children.  It seems most everything boils down to that.  It doesn't matter all that much how much money, where you live, what schools you go to, the color of your skin, it is about having loving, supportive parents who actually participate in the upbringing and imparting moral values to their children while acting as positive role models.  Sure, other factors can interfere with the ABILITY to do that, but the total destruction of the "family" (baby momma, baby daddy, welfare bonues) puts kids at such a disadvantage they grow up desperately wanting love, attention, and to "belong" and seek out gangs which provide that.  Without any moral compass, they do whatever they want, like animals would- live by instinct.  That leads to dropping out of school, crime, that leads to being hurt/killed/arrested, that leads to felonies, that leads to not being able to vote or get a job even if wanted, that leads to further crime and anger.... oh and somewhere in there- having token children; someone to "loooooooove" them and make them feel important and grown-up while getting sympathy and money too, and the cycle is completed.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2017, 05:05:31 PM »
OK, that was a rational statement so I will play along a bit more..... "Alex, I will take 'What is at the root of all things' for one- million dollars..... squared.".

You may well have valid points but again, there are far simpler, base reasons for things and they are never that complex. Why does GM make cars? Well, we could go on about their capital investments in  manufacturing lines, or the fact that they really, really like to make cars, or that their parents and grandparents worked for GM and made cars and so forth. But the real reason is because it is profitable. Everything follows that, and it applies to all businesses.

Your point, and I believe Gary's was the same a couple of posts ago about people being fundamentally 'evil', 'improperly socialized' (like bad Doberman dogs  ;) ;D , the breakdown of social values, etc., etc. is not the root problem causing the problems we have, especially in some areas of the country. The problem is that the activities they do are profitable, and they then spend a substantial amount of those profits re- investing in their infrastructure, just like GM, except it is in illicit firearms and so forth to maintain their business, again just like GM. Cut off the supply of money and all you would have is bad people (really, bad people for whatever social, economic or any / all other reasons) without any ability to cause widespread harm. Sure they can rob / hurt / kill a few people but they could not build any type of hierarchical structure to cause a LOT of harm to a LOT of people and area. But once fueled with enough money, they can, and do, build that infrastructure (we call them gangs but that is really irrelevant) and they do cause significant damage. And in turn, the rest of society has to respond to this 'living large' bad behavior and spend considerable resources trying to stop it.

History is full of excellent examples if a person can just get past the words: substitute 'gangs' for 'nations' and read up on the Opium Wars: a fascinating example of bad behavior on a national level (two nations actually), resulting in three separate wars, all over an illicit substance (opium) that was being used to stave off national bankruptcy over tea. Seriously, tea.

When a nation- state invades or attacks another nation- state, it is really nothing more than armed robbery and extortion writ large. If there was not a perceived profit in it, no one would do it, and that works all the way to an international level. Cut off the funding and it dries up and blows away.

I never suggested bad behavior was the result of any action by a large group of people and I am not suggesting it now. But what I am saying is that the magnitude of some specific social problems in the US such as truly excessive violence in, for example, specific parts of Chicago (and many other cities) is only a big problem because it is very well funded. Cut off that money and the problem falls down to a manageable level again.

So I will state what I believe is the root cause of our urban violence one more time: it is middle- class Americans purchasing illicit drugs that is funding all of the organized, large scale violence, every single facet of it. Cut off the funding and it will wither on the proverbial vine. Another facet of this overall situation is that removing some or even most of the major 'players' or even damage an entire organization badly and another will simply spring up to fill that same demand and grab those same profits. Again, history has shown us this time and time again; kill Pablo Escobar and disable the Medellin cartel and the Cali cartel steps right in with cocaine trafficking into the US every single step along the way. The only constant is that demand and the potential profits.

And none of this is limited to drugs; the organized violence in the Mideast is fueled by petroleum, African warlords are fueled by 'blood' diamonds and on and on.

Most of us look at the problem(s) on far too small a scale. Start with the big picture and work down from there.

Brian

Nah, I am still stuck on other subject :)

I don't think it is drug users or suppliers or gangs.   People will always want drugs, so they will always be supplied.  Gangs are a symptom of the underlying problem.  Take drugs out of the picture and they would just shift to gambling or theft, or robbery or extortion, or whatever.

I believe the fundamental problem is the lack of properly raising children.  It seems most everything boils down to that.  It doesn't matter all that much how much money, where you live, what schools you go to, the color of your skin, it is about having loving, supportive parents who actually participate in the upbringing and imparting moral values to their children while acting as positive role models.  Sure, other factors can interfere with the ABILITY to do that, but the total destruction of the "family" (baby momma, baby daddy, welfare bonues) puts kids at such a disadvantage they grow up desperately wanting love, attention, and to "belong" and seek out gangs which provide that.  Without any moral compass, they do whatever they want, like animals would- live by instinct.  That leads to dropping out of school, crime, that leads to being hurt/killed/arrested, that leads to felonies, that leads to not being able to vote or get a job even if wanted, that leads to further crime and anger.... oh and somewhere in there- having token children; someone to "loooooooove" them and make them feel important and grown-up while getting sympathy and money too, and the cycle is completed.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2017, 06:21:31 PM »
Reminds me of a Python skit :

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Offline turbojoe78

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2017, 10:14:55 AM »
Nah, I am still stuck on other subject :)

I don't think it is drug users or suppliers or gangs.   People will always want drugs, so they will always be supplied.  Gangs are a symptom of the underlying problem.  Take drugs out of the picture and they would just shift to gambling or theft, or robbery or extortion, or whatever.

I believe the fundamental problem is the lack of properly raising children.  It seems most everything boils down to that.  It doesn't matter all that much how much money, where you live, what schools you go to, the color of your skin, it is about having loving, supportive parents who actually participate in the upbringing and imparting moral values to their children while acting as positive role models.  Sure, other factors can interfere with the ABILITY to do that, but the total destruction of the "family" (baby momma, baby daddy, welfare bonues) puts kids at such a disadvantage they grow up desperately wanting love, attention, and to "belong" and seek out gangs which provide that.  Without any moral compass, they do whatever they want, like animals would- live by instinct.  That leads to dropping out of school, crime, that leads to being hurt/killed/arrested, that leads to felonies, that leads to not being able to vote or get a job even if wanted, that leads to further crime and anger.... oh and somewhere in there- having token children; someone to "loooooooove" them and make them feel important and grown-up while getting sympathy and money too, and the cycle is completed.

I agree with Max on this one.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2017, 01:20:02 PM »
Nah, I am still stuck on other subject :)

I don't think it is drug users or suppliers or gangs.   People will always want drugs, so they will always be supplied.  Gangs are a symptom of the underlying problem.  Take drugs out of the picture and they would just shift to gambling or theft, or robbery or extortion, or whatever.

I believe the fundamental problem is the lack of properly raising children.  It seems most everything boils down to that.  It doesn't matter all that much how much money, where you live, what schools you go to, the color of your skin, it is about having loving, supportive parents who actually participate in the upbringing and imparting moral values to their children while acting as positive role models.  Sure, other factors can interfere with the ABILITY to do that, but the total destruction of the "family" (baby momma, baby daddy, welfare bonues) puts kids at such a disadvantage they grow up desperately wanting love, attention, and to "belong" and seek out gangs which provide that.  Without any moral compass, they do whatever they want, like animals would- live by instinct.  That leads to dropping out of school, crime, that leads to being hurt/killed/arrested, that leads to felonies, that leads to not being able to vote or get a job even if wanted, that leads to further crime and anger.... oh and somewhere in there- having token children; someone to "loooooooove" them and make them feel important and grown-up while getting sympathy and money too, and the cycle is completed.

Well said, Max!
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2017, 04:29:50 PM »
Yep, that idea could sell. And then we can set up vast programs to implement the fixes to eliminate those problems. Just like we 'fixed' organized crime during Prohibition.

Still, in the end, it is unfortunate that we have problems of this magnitude at all and do not seem to be making much headway, at least as far as my limited view shows me.

And what trumps it all is the fact that almost none of it is in our neighborhoods (talking about Concours riders) so NIMBY works. There are still turds in the cat box but 1) the box is not in front of the TV and 2) the cat makes an effort to hide them so it is tolerable if not wonderful.

Brian

P.S. No cats were harmed in the typing of this post.

Well said, Max!
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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2017, 04:33:31 PM »
We should build a big beautiful wall around the cat box.

Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2017, 08:31:37 PM »
Yep, that idea could sell. And then we can set up vast programs to implement the fixes to eliminate those problems.

I don't think there is any easy fix, certainly not vast government run programs.  Less government would probably help a lot, since it is what supports quite a bit of it (through the "war" on drugs and welfare programs that promote not working, promote having babies, penalize marriage, etc).
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2017, 08:55:39 PM »
And make the cat pay for it.  ;) ::)

Brian

We should build a big beautiful wall around the cat box.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2017, 09:00:53 PM »
On this we are in 100% agreement. Social engineering is complex, difficult and always full of pitfalls such as unintended consequences and similar. On some level, you pays your money and you takes the results, some good, some bad and a lot of surprises.

And again, thanks to all for a civil discussion: it is always a pleasant surprise when discussing thing such as these issues that so often awake really large emotion responses.

Maybe we should turn things upside down and shut down the 'Crazy Channel for 72 hours and force them to read some of the threads on this forum as an example of a discussion rather than a screaming, chest- pounding match.

Brian

I don't think there is any easy fix, certainly not vast government run programs.  Less government would probably help a lot, since it is what supports quite a bit of it (through the "war" on drugs and welfare programs that promote not working, promote having babies, penalize marriage, etc).
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2017, 06:30:32 AM »
On this we are in 100% agreement. Social engineering is complex, difficult and always full of pitfalls such as unintended consequences and similar. On some level, you pays your money and you takes the results, some good, some bad and a lot of surprises.

And again, thanks to all for a civil discussion: it is always a pleasant surprise when discussing thing such as these issues that so often awake really large emotion responses.

Maybe we should turn things upside down and shut down the 'Crazy Channel for 72 hours and force them to read some of the threads on this forum as an example of a discussion rather than a screaming, chest- pounding match.

Brian

That would be 1) if they can read and 2) not allow them to post.

Offline Cholla

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2017, 10:19:01 AM »
Maybe we should not have all these gummint programs which promote bad behavior.

And with the last post this "civil discussion" is no longer civil.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2017, 10:51:13 AM »
That would be 1) if they can read and 2) not allow them to post.

Not allow who to post?
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