Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: BigEdPVD on January 12, 2016, 11:59:59 PM

Title: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on January 12, 2016, 11:59:59 PM
So, after asking around on some of the other forums, I am wondering if anyone here has had their 2008-2009 rear ABS pump fail on them?  That seems to be the diagnosis for my bike.  Early signs were the rear brake lever sticking, it would seem the lever would get hung up when activating the brakes, giving no braking at all, then release quickly giving you a TON of brake at once.  I changed to a new pair of pads, and bled the system, and now I have no rear brakes at all.  Guys on the other forums are suggesting it's the rear ABS pump.  Just wondering if anyone here has had the same problem?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 13, 2016, 03:52:52 AM
Not sure I've heard of that but the first part of your description sounded like gravel trapped near the lever, but the brakes would stick on for that.  Can't say that I've heard of the ABS pump going bad.  I'd be looking at the master cylinder.  Let us know what you find out.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on January 13, 2016, 05:36:25 AM
I have not seen a single report about ABS failure.  Ever.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 13, 2016, 05:55:52 AM
My advice would be to take it to a dealer that you trust and have them go over it.  Do you have an extended warranty on it?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on January 13, 2016, 05:59:17 AM
Youse guys need to get out more....

http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/6620/Hard-Rear-Brake-Pedal#.VpZI1LYrJph (http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/6620/Hard-Rear-Brake-Pedal#.VpZI1LYrJph)

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=56118.0 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=56118.0)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 13, 2016, 06:15:09 AM
One forum is all I can handle..maybe two, but that's stretching it.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: elp_jc on January 13, 2016, 03:20:05 PM
There's no 'rear' ABS pump. There's only one pump in the system, even on cars. Pressure is regulated to the wheels via valves. If the system fails, brakes operate normally, just without the ABS function. Plus you'd get an ABS warning light as well, therefore ABS module failure doesn't seem to be your problem. However, it still could be the ABS module due to lack of maintenance (regular bleeding jobs), which wouldn't trigger a dash light if the electronics are working correctly. If you just bled the braking system for the first time, you'd not only have to possibly look at a new ABS module, but clean and rebuild all calipers and master cylinders as well. The braking symptoms you mentioned could be sticky caliper pistons. Whether properly serviced or not, your best bet is to let a dealer hook up the computer to test it. You need special equipment to clean an ABS module due to having to activate pump, all valves, etc. Or buy a new one. Plus I'd clean and/or rebuild all other braking components, including calipers and master cylinders. It's your life on the line. Good luck.

As a final thought, and whether it's your problem or not, hope this scares owners to spend the $5 needed for a small bottle to bleed their braking systems, as well as the half hour to do the job (or pay somebody if you're lazy ;)). It's a piece of cake. Absolutely no reason to neglect such a simple and cheap service, when brakes are the most important system in any vehicle. And the exhorbitant cost to fix such easily maintained components. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on January 13, 2016, 08:52:04 PM
As a final thought, and whether it's your problem or not, hope this scares owners to spend the $5 needed for a small bottle to bleed their braking systems, as well as the half hour to do the job (or pay somebody if you're lazy ;)). It's a piece of cake. Absolutely no reason to neglect such a simple and cheap service, when brakes are the most important system in any vehicle. And the exhorbitant cost to fix such easily maintained components. Hope this helps.

You may yell at me now.... 4.5 years and I haven't done it yet...  BUT IT IS ON MY LIST!  Me b bad!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: connie14boy on January 13, 2016, 10:25:22 PM
You may yell at me now.... 4.5 years and I haven't done it yet...  BUT IT IS ON MY LIST!  Me b bad!

To add to your list and according to the Kawasaki Accepted Principles of Essential Maintenance (KAPEM), have you:
Changed your clutch fluid?
Changed your coolant hoses?
Installed new spark plugs?
Checked valve train clearances?
Installed new rubber brake lines?
Synced the fuel injectors?
Read the entire factory manual?
Dusted under the seat?
Cleaned the lake?




 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on January 14, 2016, 05:35:47 AM
To add to your list and according to the Kawasaki Accepted Principles of Essential Maintenance (KAPEM), have you:
Changed your clutch fluid?
Changed your coolant hoses?
Installed new spark plugs?
Checked valve train clearances?
Installed new rubber brake lines?
Synced the fuel injectors?
Read the entire factory manual?
Dusted under the seat?
Cleaned the lake?

Yikes
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: stevewfl on January 16, 2016, 09:07:31 PM
Steve in Sunny Florida had to replace his rear ABS pump (on an '09 if I'm not mistaken).  Ping him for all the low-down (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)

edit:  this thread may help

http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=56118.0 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php?topic=56118.0)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on January 17, 2016, 06:44:50 AM
You may yell at me now.... 4.5 years and I haven't done it yet...  BUT IT IS ON MY LIST!  Me b bad!

What are you waiting for Max?   :o
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on January 17, 2016, 07:05:53 AM
What are you waiting for Max?   :o

Time, energy, motivation, assistance.  Just the normal stuff.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 17, 2016, 10:39:50 PM
There's no 'rear' ABS pump. There's only one pump in the system, even on cars. Pressure is regulated to the wheels via valves. If the system fails, brakes operate normally, just without the ABS function. Plus you'd get an ABS warning light as well, therefore ABS module failure doesn't seem to be your problem. However, it still could be the ABS module due to lack of maintenance (regular bleeding jobs), which wouldn't trigger a dash light if the electronics are working correctly. If you just bled the braking system for the first time, you'd not only have to possibly look at a new ABS module, but clean and rebuild all calipers and master cylinders as well. The braking symptoms you mentioned could be sticky caliper pistons. Whether properly serviced or not, your best bet is to let a dealer hook up the computer to test it. You need special equipment to clean an ABS module due to having to activate pump, all valves, etc. Or buy a new one. Plus I'd clean and/or rebuild all other braking components, including calipers and master cylinders. It's your life on the line. Good luck.

As a final thought, and whether it's your problem or not, hope this scares owners to spend the $5 needed for a small bottle to bleed their braking systems, as well as the half hour to do the job (or pay somebody if you're lazy ;)). It's a piece of cake. Absolutely no reason to neglect such a simple and cheap service, when brakes are the most important system in any vehicle. And the exhorbitant cost to fix such easily maintained components. Hope this helps.

As usual, your expert opinion, based on time with this bike, is full of holes. I have Owned one of the first C14's to hit the USA, and it has ABS. I have changed the brake fluids 3 times since purchase 7/07, and will do another this coming spring. The ABS module is subject to failure, and a few documented cases on this issue have been aired here, and on the COG forum, over the years. A failure on the distribution valves in the module WILL cause solid brake pedal lockup on the rear brake, and such has been documented (when the bike is running). Servicing the fluids requires no power to the bike or to the ABS system, which when the bike is "off" the circuits are in the passive mode. When the ABS unit fails, normal braking will NOT occur, and the failure is not always evident to the onboard diagnostics, so warnings on the dash may not reveal it. The normal fluid changeout to prevent issues is not really all that simple, as when you do the job completely, it is easy to admit air into the system, but with due diligence the integrity can be restored.It is a bit more than "bleeding" the brakes, you need to completely flush the system, which means you will purge, and replace the fluids completely... i.e. running about a pint and a half, or more, thru to complete the action.
Same goes for the clutch...as it contaminates at an accelerated rate more so than the brakes.

I put together a deal with a Kaw dealer to cover our extended warranties at a great price reduction, specifically as a benefit to my family of COG, and have pressed it as a suggested purchase for 7 years now. replacing that pump unit is a pricey thing.
Coupled with regular service interval steps as outlined in the owners book that came with the bike, the checklist is pretty simple.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 18, 2016, 04:41:12 AM
Rich, you really could have done without that first sentence...
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: stevewfl on January 18, 2016, 06:41:09 AM
Rich, you really could have done without that first sentence...

 ;D
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on January 18, 2016, 07:16:07 AM
Rich, you really could have done without that first sentence...

You know, seeing as how I have pressure before the ABS unit but not to the rear line....I'd say he's on point.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on January 18, 2016, 05:13:27 PM
MoB says  'A failure on the distribution valves in the module WILL cause solid brake pedal lockup on the rear brake, and such has been documented (when the bike is running).
It will also cause solid front brake lever lockup, though that hasn't been documented yet that I've seeen - perhaps because noone's lived to report it.



When the ABS unit fails, normal braking will NOT occur, and the failure is not always evident to the onboard diagnostics, so warnings on the dash may not reveal it.
True, and this is the reason why Kawasaki should do something about this failure.  The service manual for these series 1 (gen 1) bikes states that the warning system should alert the rider to this specific failure by the yellow light remaining on after startup/system check, but there is also this failure of the warning system which prevents it.  That is the crux of the safety issue involved here. 

The failure of the hyd system, serious though it is, is (relatively) a minor issue.  The failure of the warning system is potentially deadly and should be the subject of a recall.  Few folks understand that the warning system does not detect this failure and either: a. bypass the abs unit; b. replace the abs unit; rather than lodging a formal complaint with their national vehicle safety authority.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on February 16, 2016, 10:28:22 AM
I know I may be opening a can of worms here, but, has anyone reported the ABS brake issue to the NHTSA yet?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 16, 2016, 10:32:15 AM
It should be if it hasn't.  I went out and looked to see the complaints.  I think that I only saw one dealing with ABS but it wasn't specific as to the symptoms.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on February 16, 2016, 08:10:08 PM
I reported it last year on my side of the world (Australia) to the federal Authorities and detailed the saga in the link further up this thread. I was the first here to do so.  Another owner here reported it in the last month or two (the second formal report). The official answer is: 'isolated failures due to poor maintenance' - but that doesn't explain the failure of the warning system, just the hydraulics. 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: JhVenezuela on February 17, 2016, 11:13:56 AM
I had the same problem a couple years a go
And yes, was "The hidraulyc ABS Unit"
The Unit had to be disassemble and repaired.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 17, 2016, 12:33:53 PM
Did you know what they did to it?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: JhVenezuela on February 17, 2016, 01:06:59 PM
Not really, but I'll tray to find it out in detail  and traslate (hard part).
 ::)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 17, 2016, 02:37:51 PM
Thanks.  Any information on this will be extremely appreciated.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on February 22, 2016, 09:08:37 AM
I brought mine to a somewhat local dealer here.  Turns out the ABS pump had blocked, despite the brake fluid being changed 3x since the bike was new.  I will post more info when I get the bike back.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 22, 2016, 09:59:15 AM
Thanks for the update. 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on March 04, 2016, 12:11:08 PM
Well, I wanted to update this post. I just got my bike back from the dealer. I brought it in on 2/25 to have it diagnosed, and sure enough, it was the ABS pump. I did let the service writer know that I know that more than a few people have had the same problem, so he told me that he was going to call Kawasaki and see if they could do anything for me. Kawasaki did want to know if the brake fluid had ever been changed, which it had with the 3 rear pad changes (luckily I know the previous owner well!) So, Kawasaki offered to replace the $1300 ABS pump for free out of warranty labor included, and they even told the dealership to refund my diagnostic fee. The only BAD part about this, I was without my bike for two weeks. So, yeah, that part was a bummer, but, I didn't have to pay out of pocket for the repair!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 04, 2016, 02:05:22 PM
That is excellent news indeed! Thanks for updating us on the end result.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on March 04, 2016, 02:21:26 PM
Was it fixed on Ma Kaw's dime or did you have an extended warranty in effect?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 04, 2016, 03:10:11 PM
Was it fixed on Ma Kaw's dime or did you have an extended warranty in effect?

So, Kawasaki offered to replace the $1300 ABS pump for free out of warranty labor included, and they even told the dealership to refund my diagnostic fee.


Kewl
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on March 04, 2016, 03:53:41 PM
I see said the blind man.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Deziner on March 04, 2016, 04:04:26 PM
I see said the blind man.

as he picked up his hammer and saw.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 04, 2016, 06:00:47 PM
That was my experience too BigEd, as you may have read on the Australian forum. 

What now needs to be done is to report the issue to your national vehicle safety authority, in the interest of other riders and road users.   


Please note my comments towards the end of reply 17 & 20.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on March 04, 2016, 07:43:36 PM
That was my experience too BigEd, as you may have read on the Australian forum. 

What now needs to be done is to report the issue to your national vehicle safety authority, in the interest of other riders and road users.   


Please note my comments towards the end of reply 17 & 20.

Noted and done.  I still have yet to hear from the NHTSA, though.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 04, 2016, 10:15:12 PM
Thank you sir.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 13, 2016, 02:44:43 PM
just answered this question on other forum about parts interchange...

differences between 08-09 and 2010 abs parts...

they do differ,
wheel rotor sensor differs also, that's where the signal comes from in pulses being sensed...
08 front is. 21007-0068   ROTOR,SENSOR,FR
16082-0023   PUMP-ASSY-OIL,WET TYPE

21007-0069   ROTOR,SENSOR,RR
21176-0076   SENSOR,SPEED,RR


2010 is
21007-0140   ROTOR,SENSOR,FR
16082-0041   PUMP-ASSY-OIL,WET TYPE
21007-0141   ROTOR,SENSOR,RR
21176-0131   SENSOR,SPEED,RR

hope this helps, maybe a sticky is in order to preserve this?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: sas mayhem on July 13, 2016, 05:57:19 AM
What's involved in replacing the ABS pump and time?
It think mine has gone out, NO movement on rear brake lever totally froze.
I'm at work now. My service manual is at home

Cheers
Ron
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: BigEdPVD on July 13, 2016, 08:54:02 AM
Check with your Kawasaki dealership before you tear into it your self.  They have still been replacing them at no cost to the owner. 

It's also the ABS pump that they replace, and that's not cheap, somewhere to the tune of $800+ if bought from Kawi.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on July 13, 2016, 07:58:08 PM
Ron, read the thread and links the do as BigEd suggests.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 24, 2016, 01:24:23 AM
Sorry for hashing up an old thread...
I got same symptoms, sticky back brake peddle,  bled the rear brake, worked fine for about a month, sticky again,  removed rear master cylinder, cleaned out some debris inside, seals look great and work good, put back together and nothing, yes, Nothing....
Have plenty of fluid in reservoir, which goes to master cylinder, but have no fluid at brake caliper even with 20 lb pressure on mitivac (even left it on 22lb pressure all night)  bled the master cylinder, lets see.....hmmmm   3 hrs!!!  still nothing.....
 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on October 24, 2016, 05:43:37 AM
Sorry for hashing up an old thread...

There is nothing to be sorry for.  It is almost always preferable to post to an existing thread than to create a new,  duplicate one.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on October 24, 2016, 04:42:29 PM
Sorry for hashing up an old thread...
I got same symptoms, sticky back brake peddle,  bled the rear brake, worked fine for about a month, sticky again,  removed rear master cylinder, cleaned out some debris inside, seals look great and work good, put back together and nothing, yes, Nothing....
Have plenty of fluid in reservoir, which goes to master cylinder, but have no fluid at brake caliper even with 20 lb pressure on mitivac (even left it on 22lb pressure all night)  bled the master cylinder, lets see.....hmmmm   3 hrs!!!  still nothing.....

Didn't see it mentioned, but did you remove and clean the rear calipers? If not, might be a good thing....
Suck a little of the fluid out of the master cylinder to drop its level a bit, and pry the pistons on the caliper to push fluid back up into the master cylinder, this should dislodge any air, and possible debris and pshit upwards, and after that you should be able to develope pressure in the line actuating the pedel. Then continue bleeding in a normal manner. Sounds like an air bubble is cavitating in that assembly, and preventing a good piston seal, resulting in a bubble blockage so to speak.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: tbanzer on October 24, 2016, 08:09:53 PM
Do we have any documentation on what years are involved with these issues? From what I have read is its 08 mostly and only rear brake problems. My 08 has rear an ABS issue as well.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on October 24, 2016, 08:24:28 PM
Do we have any documentation on what years are involved with these issues? From what I have read is its 08 mostly and only rear brake problems. My 08 has rear an ABS issue as well.

It would help if all people put their model years in their signatures, taglines, or avatar areas....

It looks to me like it might be 08 and 09... which is gen1, which is a different system than the gen2's ABS.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 24, 2016, 11:06:38 PM
Didn't see it mentioned, but did you remove and clean the rear calipers? If not, might be a good thing....
Suck a little of the fluid out of the master cylinder to drop its level a bit, and pry the pistons on the caliper to push fluid back up into the master cylinder, this should dislodge any air, and possible debris and pshit upwards, and after that you should be able to develope pressure in the line actuating the pedel. Then continue bleeding in a normal manner. Sounds like an air bubble is cavitating in that assembly, and preventing a good piston seal, resulting in a bubble blockage so to speak.

Unable to get any fluid from the ABS unit down to Caliper.
Even left the mitivac on 22lbs overnight on "open" caliper to see if will pull fluid,  nothing.
No didn't clean rear caliper,  spent hrs on the net last night, everything pointing to ABS unit,  I pulled mine out today, now I'm searching for an 08/09 one to put back in, then the dreaded purging the whole system....
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 24, 2016, 11:16:54 PM
Sorry, mines an 09.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on October 24, 2016, 11:49:18 PM
Unable to get any fluid from the ABS unit down to Caliper.
Even left the mitivac on 22lbs overnight on "open" caliper to see if will pull fluid,  nothing.
No didn't clean rear caliper,  spent hrs on the net last night, everything pointing to ABS unit,  I pulled mine out today, now I'm searching for an 08/09 one to put back in, then the dreaded purging the whole system....

Well, my suggestions fall to the wayside about trying to PUSH fluid from the caliper back up thru the mc now.
As you have disconnected the pump and associated lines.
I wish I would have had my response understood before that occurred, as I feel it may have been a solution.
Trying to suck fluids down from the mc thru to the caliper, even overnight, isn't the same as backflusing the system back to its origen.

Best of luck.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on October 25, 2016, 02:55:06 AM
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.0)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: tbanzer on October 26, 2016, 09:45:29 AM
I suspect there is more to the issues related to gen 1 ABS failures than some late brake fluid flushes. ABS has been around along time now in the automotive world. I don't Know anyone I could say flushes their brake fluid until possibly brake pads are required and ABS failures are extremely rare on the vehicles that I am familiar with.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Diablo6v on October 26, 2016, 12:49:53 PM
I have an '09 that had a complete ABS failure. SISF replaced the ABS pump and I bought the bike. After a year or so and 25,000 miles i flushed the brakes both front and rear. The horrible black crap that came out was amazing. Especially after just having the pump replaced the year before. SISF and I suspect the brake lines are deteriorating. The bike is 7 yrs old now. I am replacing them with some Speiglers or SS lines soon.  FYI the brakes do not work if the pump dies. I know the manual says they still work. They do NOT...
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: tbanzer on October 26, 2016, 02:15:17 PM
My brake flushes had fluid come out that looked like new with no discoloration, and still have rear ABS issues.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on October 26, 2016, 05:28:31 PM
K stipulates that brake hoses are to be replaced at 4 year intervals iirc, so most are well over due.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on October 27, 2016, 12:33:04 AM
K stipulates that brake hoses are to be replaced at 4 year intervals iirc, so most are well over due.

I have seen that before and thought it was either insane or a misprint.  Do you think they are actually serious?  Do people actually replace rubber brake lines after just several years???  I think of cars and have never heard of that being done unless it is some classic car that is 20+ years old!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on October 27, 2016, 04:50:51 PM
I suppose the jury is still out on the frequency, except in Diablo's case, but the manufacturer knows best. 

The major issue I have with this series 1 ABS unit failure is that the warning light does not illuminate when the system self-tests in the first few metres of every ride.  This is contrary to what is spelt out quite clearly in the FSM.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on October 27, 2016, 05:17:04 PM
The major issue I have with this series 1 ABS unit failure is that the warning light does not illuminate when the system self-tests in the first few metres of every ride.  This is contrary to what is spelt out quite clearly in the FSM.

It is probable that the self-test doesn't or can't test ALL aspects of the system, so some malfunctions will get through undetected.  I don't know what it really tests, nor if there is a difference in those tests between the gen1 and gen2 designs.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on October 27, 2016, 10:23:06 PM
On the contrary - the gen 1 FSM details what fault code is generated by which specific failed component of the ABS system (leaving the gen 2 aside as it's a somewhat different system).  Such brake failure is bad and conceivably caused by lack of maintenance, which seems to cause the valve(s) within the ABS unit to stick in the 'open to pump/closed to master cylinder' position (service code 13 or 14 below) which, in turn, causes a hydraulic lock back to the master cylinder.

While rear brake failure of this type is bad enough, there is a second life-threatening failure - that of the warning system itself.  The ABS warning lamp goes off after the first short distance of start-up riding, falsely giving the rider feedback that the brake system is trouble-free whereas, in fact, the rear brakes have failed the test and will fail to apply but the lamp doesn't show it. 

What happens if the valves in the front circuit (code 17 or 18) gets stuck?  I've not seen it reported.  Perhaps no-one has lived to do so. 

(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab313/Freddy1333/ABSfaults_zpsvl5nqqtt.jpg)

(Links to this info were further back in this thread.)


Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 28, 2016, 12:39:34 AM
I took ABS "module" out, air line blow thru inlets,  put back together, easy bleed (front brakes 1st)  then back.
100% working good again..
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on October 28, 2016, 12:44:36 AM
Inlet AND outlet ports, or just inlets?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 28, 2016, 11:30:33 AM
http://youtu.be/W6MkESn1v1w (http://youtu.be/W6MkESn1v1w)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on October 28, 2016, 11:31:58 AM
I took ABS "module" out, air line blow thru inlets,  put back together, easy bleed (front brakes 1st)  then back.
100% working good again..

Did you see any crap come out?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: feelergaugephil on October 28, 2016, 10:08:17 PM
Yes, a little trash, The ABS module will only blow (air line) one way, put it all back together and rode 20 miles, stomping on brakes, ABS works fine, no codes, no light on.
Its now at the dealers (show room floor) awaiting a new owner, while I save till March for a 2013/14 Connie.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on October 28, 2016, 11:08:14 PM
Perhaps you applied compressed air to the outlet ports rather than the inlet ports, causing the valves to return to their correct position. 

Yet an interesting and simple fix that could be done without removing the unit, though probably temporary - but who cares if it's up for sale.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: feelergaugephil on November 19, 2016, 04:44:18 PM
Sold..... Cmon March....... 8)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: WolfPack Rider on March 13, 2017, 07:31:41 PM
Another example of rear abs failure. My 09 has 12k miles and the dealer says the abs unit is bad. They called Kawasaki and it took them less than a minute to agree. The rear brake is frozen in a hydrostatic lock. They want $1600 to replace part and bleed whole system. Kawasaki won't help cover any of the cost. I've searched for salvage parts and can't find any. I can't afford that much for a repair. I've been a proud owner of Kawasaki bikes my whole life but this type and expense of repair might make it my last. In fact, $1600 repair bills is the reason I didn't get a bmw. I'm desperate for any help you guys can provide. Thanks!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 14, 2017, 04:33:52 AM
Another example of rear abs failure. My 09 has 12k miles and the dealer says the abs unit is bad. They called Kawasaki and it took them less than a minute to agree. The rear brake is frozen in a hydrostatic lock. They want $1600 to replace part and bleed whole system. Kawasaki won't help cover any of the cost. I've searched for salvage parts and can't find any. I can't afford that much for a repair. I've been a proud owner of Kawasaki bikes my whole life but this type and expense of repair might make it my last. In fact, $1600 repair bills is the reason I didn't get a bmw. I'm desperate for any help you guys can provide. Thanks!

What's the maintenance history on this bike as far as brake fluid replacement?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 14, 2017, 05:41:23 AM
What's the maintenance history on this bike as far as brake fluid replacement?

I can't hear you......
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 14, 2017, 06:23:59 AM
Another example of rear abs failure. My 09 has 12k miles and the dealer says the abs unit is bad. They called Kawasaki and it took them less than a minute to agree. The rear brake is frozen in a hydrostatic lock. They want $1600 to replace part and bleed whole system. Kawasaki won't help cover any of the cost. I've searched for salvage parts and can't find any. I can't afford that much for a repair. I've been a proud owner of Kawasaki bikes my whole life but this type and expense of repair might make it my last. In fact, $1600 repair bills is the reason I didn't get a bmw. I'm desperate for any help you guys can provide. Thanks!

Such a low mileage bike......theorizing low rear brake usage and little or none flushing the brake system.  The ABS unit is crudded up..   Alternatively one could try what Phil did or one may want to call these folks...  https://modulemaster.com/rebuilds/ (https://modulemaster.com/rebuilds/)

I take it there's no extended warranty in which case Kawasaki isn't going to cover it.  I don't blame Kawasaki for that.  I still have the extended warranty on mine.  Why on earth would you be upset at Kawasaki?  I just checked mine and I'm good into 2019..

If anyone wants to extend their warranty, I suggest you do so..  http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=225.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=225.0)  Still a very good deal considering the price of fixing and parts.

So every year, flush out the brake fluid (I only use Kwackers brand) and invoke the ABS on the rear. 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 14, 2017, 11:32:06 AM
I can't hear you......

 :rotflmao:

:cool:
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 14, 2017, 03:31:56 PM
Such a low mileage bike......theorizing low rear brake usage and little or none flushing the brake system.  The ABS unit is crudded up..

Good speculation.  On the gen 1, the brakes were not linked and quite a few people (myself included) rarely, if ever, even use rear brake pedal.  On gen 2, you are forced to use the rear whether you want to or not (due to the linking).

Quote
...So every year, flush out the brake fluid

Ug!!!  :)  Bad Max

Quote
and invoke the ABS on the rear.

Amazingly, I am not sure I have ever triggered the ABS.  It is also on my to-do list.  I certainly have in my cars.  There is just something so much more scary about doing it on the bike.

Even traction control is a very rare event.... and yet it just started doing that to me a few weeks ago on some spirited take-offs.  It was cold and my tires are worn out.  I am guessing that as I have worn through most of the regular tread, the remaining portion is harder than normal.  Yes, it is on the never-ending list, too...
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: WolfPack Rider on March 14, 2017, 08:18:16 PM
I called and got the final word from Kawasaki. They said they were unaware of any systemic issues with that part and would not assist with the replacement. PO was very meticulous with the bike, all service records are up to date and bike has numerous creature comforts. This guy loved it, as do I.  The bike is four years out of warranty. I've owned the bike almost two years so I was planning to do a brake and clutch fluid flush, even though the pads and fluids are still look good. I'm in Alabama I would ride the bike anywhere and prior to this incident I would have said bike and maintenance were near perfect.

im sure takata airbags were fine too until the Feds made them replace all of the inflators...too many people on various forums are having this same abs issue for this to be a fluke.

As far as getting this fixed, can anyone provide a tutorial for removing the part?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Daytona_Mike on March 14, 2017, 09:44:46 PM
After reading this and other threads I bled the lines.  It has been a few years since I installed the SS lines. I was expecting the fluid to be non clear or beige but it was clean and clear. I went through a big bottle just be sure I cleared anything that might be in ABS -nothing just clean clear fluid =mine is a 2008.
Then I drove it around the yard on grass - I felt the ABS pump working when I tried to lock the front and then the rear. Nothing scary or upsetting happened.
 I will run the pump more often and keep my eye out for a used one just to have.
Thanks
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 14, 2017, 11:17:34 PM
I called and got the final word from Kawasaki. They said they were unaware of any systemic issues with that part and would not assist with the replacement. PO was very meticulous with the bike, all service records are up to date and bike has numerous creature comforts. This guy loved it, as do I.  The bike is four years out of warranty. I've owned the bike almost two years so I was planning to do a brake and clutch fluid flush, even though the pads and fluids are still look good. I'm in Alabama I would ride the bike anywhere and prior to this incident I would have said bike and maintenance were near perfect.

im sure takata airbags were fine too until the Feds made them replace all of the inflators...too many people on various forums are having this same abs issue for this to be a fluke.

As far as getting this fixed, can anyone provide a tutorial for removing the part?

Well, call the person you spoke to, and have them come here, on this forum, and see how many have "popped up" just out of warranty... and also tell them most of us meticulously maintain systems, and DO have a clue how to do so... and we will create a thread just for Kaw, with everyone that has experienced this syndrome...
Who ever was on that phone is full of b/s, and sounds like the old run around people got for every single issue we have documented repeatedly that needed correction....

Maybe its about time to get the C14 Technical Editor to step up, and do something.... anything, anything at all, even respond to the issue... and earn his position within COG as an officer, by TAKING THIS TO KAW AND ASKING WHAT THEY ARE PLANNING TO DO TO KEEP OUR LEVEL OF FAITH, IN THE BIKE...

or, maybe not.... but that's what I would/have done in the past....
Its getting a bit rediculous...when the answers and help on the COG forum are not coming from the person appointed to do so.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 15, 2017, 12:34:22 AM
I called and got the final word from Kawasaki. They said they were unaware of any systemic issues with that part and would not assist with the replacement.

Below is a link to our Australian forum discussing the same issue.  It seems Kawasaki has now decided to clam-up and deny knowledge.   See post 77 and a few of the posts before and after.  The price of the part here is $2440 plus tax. 

http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/6620/Hard-Rear-Brake-Pedal?page=4#.WMje5We1tzA (http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/6620/Hard-Rear-Brake-Pedal?page=4#.WMje5We1tzA)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 15, 2017, 04:45:02 AM
Below is a link to our Australian forum discussing the same issue.  It seems Kawasaki has now decided to clam-up and deny knowledge.   See post 77 and a few of the posts before and after.  The price of the part here is $2440 plus tax. 

http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/6620/Hard-Rear-Brake-Pedal?page=4#.WMje5We1tzA (http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/6620/Hard-Rear-Brake-Pedal?page=4#.WMje5We1tzA)

From the above post.

"There was a delay in delivery of a correct replacement to Victor Motorcycles as the first one sent was apparently for the 2009 model which I was told is not suitable for the 2008 model.  (Victor Motorcycles did say this was probably their error in the order rather than Kawasaki.) Could be that the problem may be limited to the 2008 model like mine but I have not tried to confirm that one way or the other."

Interesting that they're saying that there's a difference between the '08 and '09 ABS pumps. I find that hard to believe.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 15, 2017, 05:59:27 AM
Don't know about over there but 2008/2009 part numbers are the same here.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 15, 2017, 06:28:33 AM
From the above post.

"There was a delay in delivery of a correct replacement to Victor Motorcycles as the first one sent was apparently for the 2009 model which I was told is not suitable for the 2008 model.  (Victor Motorcycles did say this was probably their error in the order rather than Kawasaki.) Could be that the problem may be limited to the 2008 model like mine but I have not tried to confirm that one way or the other."

Interesting that they're saying that there's a difference between the '08 and '09 ABS pumps. I find that hard to believe.

Typical dealer ignorance, BS, hopelessness & frustration.  I linked to the correct info (parts fiche) in the next post in that thread.  Same/same as Jim says.

The more important point is that Kaw Aust is also now saying they nothing of this failure.  I also pointed out that this is untrue.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 15, 2017, 06:39:01 AM
ABS pumps 'fail'.  They can fail on whatever vehicle they're in.  Doesn't make any difference if it's a car or a bike.  Connectors can corrode, circuit boards can crack and solder connections can fail.  One of the first things to ask is that can you bleed the rear brakes?  What are the symptoms other than the light is on?  Have you checked the sensors on the wheels?  Are the rear brakes even working?  Did this happen after some other maintenance was performed?  Did it happen out of blue?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 15, 2017, 07:02:32 AM
This is true Jim.  However, my issue with Kaw is the failure of the warning system as detailed in reply 56 of this thread.  That should never happen and Kaw isn't bothered by it - we can all go crash into a brick wall for all they care.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 15, 2017, 08:24:19 AM
Which is true of all the companies run by the Man.  Nothing different there.  Griping about it here won't help your cause with them.   The only thing we can do is help you troubleshoot or you can just get rid of the bike.

Now, who is interested in seeing the manual pages of the ABS piece?   PM me if you are interested.  It would be for a 2008 but 2009 should apply as well.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 15, 2017, 09:04:01 AM
My bike is fixed Jim.  It's other folks that have the brake failure now.  Griping here or elsewhere won't help unless it's done via road safety authorities as per the 3rd last page of the owner's manual (or thereabouts) which I keep encouraging other to do.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 15, 2017, 09:55:23 AM
Absolutely correct.

Report your vehicle issues here  https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: PaydayGabe on March 15, 2017, 10:37:44 AM
Wow,  , very interesting thread,  , yet disturbing! 
   So out of curiosity I  just had a look through my service documents. The original p/o had the clutch/brake fluid systems flushed in 2012 at 15.2k miles. Bike currently has just over 20k.  I haven't noticed anything weird relating to the brake (abs) system.   The lines are original,  , and the rest master recall thingy was done also. 
  I will monitor this,  , because I like to STOP just as much as I like to GO.  Not too surprising Kawasaki would bury their head's in the sand on this.   Can you say expensive,  , and  " appears we have a problem "   admition.   
Some poor sap will be killed or mangled  before something is done,   , which is unfortunate/ sad. 
Hello Kawasaki  USA/  EU/  AUS.  Time to pay attention!
This could be ugly. :doh: :nuts:      G. in Vegas
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 05:23:56 AM
Poor man's ABS code readout  - similar to pre-ODB2 Chrysler vehicle (uses a blinking light)

This is for those that don't have an extended warranty.  Pretty sure you can't get it (extended warranty) if you're not on the three year warranty or currently on an extended warranty. 

The ABS issue is not common, however it's very expensive to fix.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 16, 2017, 06:42:21 AM
Poor man's ABS code readout  - similar to pre-ODB2 Chrysler vehicle (uses a blinking light)

  • Remove the seat
  • Ground the self-diagnosis terminal A (Gray) to the ground terminal B (black/yellow) using a jumper lead
  • Push and turn the Key Knob to on
  • Count the blinks of the light to read the service code
  • For instance 13 would be blink   pause blink blink blink
  • This would indicate a problem in the rear inlet solenoid valve (shorted, open, stuck)
This is for those that don't have an extended warranty.  Pretty sure you can't get it (extended warranty) if you're not on the three year warranty or currently on an extended warranty. 

The ABS issue is not common, however it's very expensive to fix.


That works only if the yellow ABS light remains ON after starting and riding the bike.  Our problem is that the ABS light goes OFF when the failure we are discussing here occurs.  It should show service code 13 and/or 14 (from reply #56) but because the ABS light goes out as normal, we assume all's well when it ain't because the warning system itself fails and/or doesn't function as designed and detailed in the FSM.   It's great being able to read the fault codes but if it don't throw one we don't know that brakes will fail until be go to use them.

EDIT:  It's not that the entire ABS warning system fails, just those relating to rear brake failure - code 13 &/or 14 (and maybe 17 &/or 18 front) that I and others have personally experienced.  It is easy to get the system to 'throw a fault code' by unplugging a wheel sensor and/or remove a sensor from its location so that gap is too big and/or run the battery flat.  I have done these to view the results.  That part of the warning system works as it should.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 07:19:03 AM
So if the light doesn't come on, how do you know you have a failure?  What are the symptoms that point you in that direction?

Ok, went back and read the initial post.   I'd still run the diagnostic, though, just to see.  But then again, I have extended warranty and would take it in to the dealer to troubleshoot.  What I'm trying to do here is assist with ABS troubleshooting in general as many don't have a manual.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on March 16, 2017, 07:23:23 AM
The rear brake locks up?  ::)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 07:34:38 AM
I've seen the rear master cylinder cause that..and lock up the rear brake.   If one has a low mileage bike, you really need to flush any fluid out yearly.  I'd be very wary of an early year bike with low miles.  You'd have to go over it with a fine tooth comb and do every maintenance on it you can think of..
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 16, 2017, 09:31:47 AM
Wow,  , very interesting thread,  , yet disturbing! 
   So out of curiosity I  just had a look through my service documents. The original p/o had the clutch/brake fluid systems flushed in 2012 at 15.2k miles. Bike currently has just over 20k.  I haven't noticed anything weird relating to the brake (abs) system.   The lines are original,  , and the rest master recall thingy was done also. 
  I will monitor this,  , because I like to STOP just as much as I like to GO.  Not too surprising Kawasaki would bury their head's in the sand on this.   Can you say expensive,  , and  " appears we have a problem "   admition.   
Some poor sap will be killed or mangled  before something is done,   , which is unfortunate/ sad. 
Hello Kawasaki  USA/  EU/  AUS.  Time to pay attention!
This could be ugly. :doh: :nuts:      G. in Vegas

You are aware that Kawasaki specifies a flush/refill on the brakes and clutch every 2 years right? You appear to be 3 years overdue. I wouldn't wait any longer to get this done (don't bury your head in the sand   ;) ). Don't just monitor your brakes and clutch, do the maintenance and you won't have to worry as much about it. 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 09:58:25 AM
 :doh: ;)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on March 16, 2017, 12:38:04 PM
I thought he was still talking to max.  ::)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 16, 2017, 12:50:17 PM
I thought he was still talking to max.  ::)

Max can read that too.    :)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 01:45:18 PM
Max really needs to get this done..
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 16, 2017, 04:35:58 PM
I thought he was still talking to max.  ::)
Max can read that too.    :)
Max really needs to get this done..

I still can't hear anything!!!!!!!!!  I am getting a strange, faint premonition of "I told you so"
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 06:03:21 PM
I'm working on the rear brakes on Saturday..flush, clean the calipers/pads, test the rear ABS.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on March 16, 2017, 06:17:19 PM
The rear brake locks up?  ::)

No.  The pedal is rock solid - cannot be depressed, therefore NO brake application whatsoever - TOTAL brake failure. 


Jim, I'm certain you know that the rear caliper has 2 bleeders but others may not unless they remove the caliper for cleaning like you.   ;D
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 16, 2017, 06:42:17 PM
Well aware of that Freddy, but most aren't and thank you for bringing it up.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: kzz1king on March 16, 2017, 08:08:15 PM
Did not know about the 2 bleeders. Any good write ups on brake r and r?
Wayne


Well aware of that Freddy, but most aren't and thank you for bringing it up.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 04:19:53 AM
I don't think we have anything like that here.  I'll take a look, though.  If so, I'll point you to it.  There are many MC brake videos on YouTube.  I'll try to document what I do this weekend and post it up at some point.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 17, 2017, 04:36:30 AM
Did not know about the 2 bleeders. Any good write ups on brake r and r?
Wayne

It's really not that difficult at all.

In fact.

It's so easy that even Max could do it.
    ;)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 05:17:24 AM
Your brakes are one of the most important components on the bike, so if one doesn't feel comfortable doing that sort of thing there's nothing wrong with that.  You and I have done this since we were teenagers (I'm now in my 20s) and it's second nature.  Getting a professional or at least someone who's familiar with the bike and its components to work on the brakes may be a wise idea.  We've seen plenty of 'incidents' here where members worked on something and got into severe  :censored: .   Even I, who could probably do this in my sleep have been known to do stupid things with my brakes....not removing fluid from the master cylinder when installing new brakes, putting a pad in the wrong way, bending a rotor, I could go on and on.  If Max isn't comfortable doing it then get a professional or someone that's done this before (many times), to help.

But this maintenance needs to be done by someone, if you've had the bike more than two years!
 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 17, 2017, 05:44:54 AM
I'm just giving Max a rash of crap, all in good fun. He knows this.


In your 20's eh Jim? Are you counting backwards again?



! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqeqaweXBV0#)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 05:56:01 AM
Yes, I started doing that 20 years ago.. :rotflmao:   There's a reason I wear a helmet.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 17, 2017, 06:59:11 AM
I wasn't aware of the importance of flushing brakes/clutch until the discussions here started about such things last year.  It is currently on the top of my list of important things to do.  But you are right that I am not comfortable doing it myself because it has the potential to be extremely dangerous.  If it was something I had done before, then I probably would.  I have just been waiting for my mechanic friend to finish moving and decent weather to return.  I don't want the dealer touching my bike if it can be avoided.... although since I have to get new tires mounted soon, and that is something I pretty much have to get the dealer to do, I might go ahead and throw in the flushing.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 17, 2017, 08:05:49 AM
I wasn't aware of the importance of flushing brakes/clutch until the discussions here started about such things last year.  It is currently on the top of my list of important things to do.  But you are right that I am not comfortable doing it myself because it has the potential to be extremely dangerous.  If it was something I had done before, then I probably would.  I have just been waiting for my mechanic friend to finish moving and decent weather to return.  I don't want the dealer touching my bike if it can be avoided.... although since I have to get new tires mounted soon, and that is something I pretty much have to get the dealer to do, I might go ahead and throw in the flushing.

It's really hard to screw up a brake flush/fill. For the most part the only thing that you have to watch out for is spilling brake fluid on your paint. Other than that, it's air in the lines. If that happens the air can be purged.

If you never dive in and do it you'll never learn how.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 08:07:35 AM
Oh, I forgot one....spilled brake fluid on bike.  Been there, done that, looking for the t-shirt.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: kzz1king on March 17, 2017, 08:12:21 AM
So I am guessing you just keep adding fluid and pumping fluid out through one bleeder ( with hose in fluid so no air backs up into system) and when that is clear you move to the other bleeder which should not take much more.
Wayne
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on March 17, 2017, 08:16:04 AM
Oh, I forgot one....spilled brake fluid on bike.  Been there, done that, looking for the t-shirt.
used the t shirt to wipe up the brake fluid
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 17, 2017, 08:29:22 AM
So I am guessing you just keep adding fluid and pumping fluid out through one bleeder ( with hose in fluid so no air backs up into system) and when that is clear you move to the other bleeder which should not take much more.
Wayne

Suck as much of the old fluid out as you can without allowing air to reach the port. Try to get any crap out of the bottom of the reservoir while you're at it but be sure not to let air near the port. Now fill with fresh fluid and flush with your preferred method. Try to keep the reservoir covered while you're flushing if you can and be sure to add fluid as needed.

I like using this for flushing.

https://smile.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0143-Hydraulic-Bleeder/dp/B000MXW2EM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489760795&sr=8-1&keywords=motion+pro+brake+bleeder

doing the clutch

[smg id=658]
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 17, 2017, 08:35:31 AM
It's really hard to screw up a brake flush/fill. For the most part the only thing that you have to watch out for is spilling brake fluid on your paint. Other than that, it's air in the lines. If that happens the air can be purged.

I would never spill the fluid on my paint, since I would absolutely cover all possible areas with plastic and towels.  But other threads talk about how much of a nightmare air in the lines is, how bad accidentally getting contaminates in the fluid is, and somehow water getting into the fluid.  I suppose it isn't that scary, except I wanted to take the calipers apart at that time to clean and inspect.  I am still on the first/original brake pads and also have a slight pulsating, which might be stuck bobbins, or contamination on the rotors.  In my mind I lumped it all into the dangerous category of "brakes" that needs to be done.  Maybe I should ignore the calipers?  Not worry about water (choose a non-rain/humid day, keep it quick as possible)?  Think of the rotor maintenance as separate?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 08:37:21 AM
Suck as much of the old fluid out as you can

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: can't stop   :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on March 17, 2017, 08:39:24 AM
Suck as much of the old fluid out as you can without allowing air to reach the port. Try to get any crap out of the bottom of the reservoir while you're at it but be sure not to let air near the port. Now fill with fresh fluid and flush with your preferred method. Try to keep the reservoir covered while you're flushing if you can and be sure to add fluid as needed.

I like using this for flushing.: Motion-Pro-Hydraulic-Bleeder

I bought a Motion Pro (and two 12oz bottles of DOT4) specifically for doing this job.  Here is the shocker- I didn't think it was that long ago; I checked my Amazon history, it was May 8, 2016!  It has been almost a year?????!!!???  WTF??
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: kzz1king on March 17, 2017, 08:41:00 AM
Thanks, I have and also like the motion pro tool. I have had a little trouble with air getting by the loosened bleeder though.

Suck as much of the old fluid out as you can without allowing air to reach the port. Try to get any crap out of the bottom of the reservoir while you're at it but be sure not to let air near the port. Now fill with fresh fluid and flush with your preferred method. Try to keep the reservoir covered while you're flushing if you can and be sure to add fluid as needed.

I like using this for flushing.

https://smile.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0143-Hydraulic-Bleeder/dp/B000MXW2EM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489760795&sr=8-1&keywords=motion+pro+brake+bleeder

doing the clutch

[smg id=658]
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 17, 2017, 08:44:21 AM
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: can't stop   :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 >:(    ;)  I guess that needed an easy boys or two eh?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 08:46:20 AM
used the t shirt to wipe up the brake fluid

Good idea, I have some old t-shirts.   However, typically use old towels to protect the paint now.

The point of this is....if there is a mistake to be made, I've probably done it, but usually no more than once.  If one has never done this before you can watch the 'Tube videos and that will help greatly, but nothing beats having a buddy with experience to help with the bleeding procedure. 

If one is 'handy' with mechanical stuff and has never done this before then the odds are good it will be successful.  However no 'handy' skills, I wouldn't recommend it at all.  I'm pretty good with this stuff and I screw up all the time (makes you feel good, doesn't it Max?).

You don't want your minor brake experience to turn into a Haroldo.... ::)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on March 17, 2017, 08:47:20 AM
>:(    ;)  I guess that needed an easy boys or two eh?

You're killing me, you know.... :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on March 17, 2017, 08:57:48 AM
Slowly I hope?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Daytona_Mike on March 17, 2017, 09:19:47 AM
Motion Pro is ok- nice but  better spent on a Mity Vac-  Well worth the money and it makes this job far far easier than the motion pro. Harbor Freight sells a MityVac clone for less money if you prefer. If you happen to get air in the system the MityVac is what you need.
https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1489763849&sr=1-1&keywords=mityvac (https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1489763849&sr=1-1&keywords=mityvac)

Brake fluid is very caustic (except for the silicon version which you should not be using) . Lots of plastic or towels to cover paint. When I am done wash or hose down the area. Water and car soap  removes brake fluid. Just dont get any on paint. It will remove paint. It wont or should not hurt powder coated  parts.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 20, 2017, 08:43:51 PM
Traced a hard brake pedal to the ABS pump on My 08 today. Guess I'll tear it out and work on it a little tomorrow. Ugh.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on April 21, 2017, 03:59:45 AM
No doubt you've read this thread from the start - a couple more for your info.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.0)

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21700.0;topicseen (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21700.0;topicseen)

Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 21, 2017, 10:48:16 AM
No doubt you've read this thread from the start - a couple more for your info.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21794.0)

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21700.0;topicseen (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21700.0;topicseen)
Thanks for posting those! I covered a lot of threads over the past couple of days, and I'll read these too, even if I already did. LOL

I think I read this thread a few times, but I'll go through it again also. Repetition is good for my old brain.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 21, 2017, 05:15:37 PM
I partially tore down my ABS unit, and found the sticking solenoid valve. Took the snap ring out, and freed it up. Cleaned it. Wasn't terribly dirty inside. Air will now blow through the rear brake line ports. I'll reassemble tomorrow, and test it out.

Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on April 24, 2017, 06:15:55 PM
That's great Jamie.  Which of the 2 is the rear?  After removing the ring did the cap slip out easily? 

No-one's ever reported front brake failure.  I wonder why???????
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 24, 2017, 07:38:13 PM
That's great Jamie.  Which of the 2 is the rear?  After removing the ring did the cap slip out easily? 

No-one's ever reported front brake failure.  I wonder why???????

I'm a little unsure what You mean here, "After removing the ring did the cap slip out easily?"

The top port, where my index finger is, goes out to the caliper, as the port by my thumb, is fed by the master. I took the control unit off, and freed up the solenoids. I was able to run fresh fluid through it, and get it lubricated. It wasn't really terribly dirty inside. I do bleed a pint of fluid through my brakes every couple of years. Bike is still apart, because I'm slow, so hopefully, I'll finish up and test ride tomorrow. Bleeding the system isn't as difficult as folks make out. Attach a hose to each bleeder screw, and place it in a container of fresh fluid. Fill the master, crack open the bleeders, and pump the pedal/lever. Take it slow. Use plenty of fluid. The most difficult brakes I've ever bled, were some of the earliest automotive antilocks. This works on all I've ever done, except early Bosch units. Those take another, super simple method.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on April 24, 2017, 08:11:28 PM
That's great Jamie.  Which of the 2 is the rear?  After removing the ring did the cap slip out easily? 

No-one's ever reported front brake failure.  I wonder why? ??? ???

My guess would be that it's used way more than the rear.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 24, 2017, 08:28:48 PM
Yep. That's probably the most logical answer. I got no solids, or excess crud out of the unit, when I flushed it.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on April 25, 2017, 06:10:28 PM
My guess would be that it's used way more than the rear.

According to the information given to me by a senior Kaw service tech who authorised the replacement of my faulty unit 2 and a bit years ago (free of charge for investigation of the failure), the solenoids and therefore valves are cycled each time the bike is started and ridden those first few metres.  If the system is 'fault free' the ABS warning light is extinguished.  As we know, the ABS light goes off even with this fault, though the FSM details (in one of the other thread) that it is designed to detect this fault and warn the rider.

Jamie, I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the solenoids are under the caps near your thumb.  Is that so?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 25, 2017, 09:18:09 PM
According to the information given to me by a senior Kaw service tech who authorised the replacement of my faulty unit 2 and a bit years ago (free of charge for investigation of the failure), the solenoids and therefore valves are cycled each time the bike is started and ridden those first few metres.  If the system is 'fault free' the ABS warning light is extinguished.  As we know, the ABS light goes off even with this fault, though the FSM details (in one of the other thread) that it is designed to detect this fault and warn the rider.

Jamie, I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the solenoids are under the caps near your thumb.  Is that so?
The cap by my thumb, is where the piston, driven my the pump motor are installed by the manufacturer. It's very difficult to install the pump motor, without taking out those pistons, because they ride on a cam, driven by the motor. It turned out to be unnecessary to take off the motor. Wish I'd known that ahead of time. You can see the pistons in the top pic.

The solenoid that sticks, is accessible by removing the control module from the back of the ABS unit. I simply worked the stuck shaft loose with a soft mallet. Once it started moving, I was able to use my fingers to work it in and out while pouring fresh fluid through it. A little dirt came out but I've seen cars that were much worse, and still functioning. I'd say Nissin screwed the pooch designing this unit.

Here is the pump motor in the bottom pic. If anyone ever attempts this fix on their own, I recommend NOT removing this, since it doesn't gain access to the problem area, anyways. It's damn tough to reinstall this this between the two opposed pistons.

Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 25, 2017, 11:38:20 PM
I forgot to add, that after a 50 mile shakedown cruise, my motor scoot is back in service, and performing normally. As you can see in the pic, I'm extremely happy about it.

Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on April 26, 2017, 03:18:23 AM
You look ....ecstatic....   Good work on the pump. Would you be interested in breaking this off into a thread of it's own? The Boss could then archive the repair.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: O.C. on April 26, 2017, 03:31:49 AM
Your persistence has paid off Jamie..well done 

Tell me that you are happier than your picture suggests  ;D   
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on April 26, 2017, 04:12:28 AM
Well done Jamie and many thanks for documenting this - you're the first to disclose the guts of the unit.  Glad to read it's back to normal. 

Question - what was the condition of the piston for the fronts brakes?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on April 26, 2017, 04:48:14 AM
I forgot to add, that after a 50 mile shakedown cruise, my motor scoot is back in service, and performing normally. As you can see in the pic, I'm extremely happy about it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/mcthnif/C-SYg1sXYAEYlfd.jpg%20large_zpsbhn0pqni.jpg~original) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mcthnif/media/C-SYg1sXYAEYlfd.jpg%20large_zpsbhn0pqni.jpg.html)

That's your happy face eh?    :rotflmao:

I wouldn't want to see your mad face!!!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 26, 2017, 12:23:23 PM
You look ....ecstatic....   Good work on the pump. Would you be interested in breaking this off into a thread of it's own? The Boss could then archive the repair.
Sure. I wasn't very diligent about taking pics and documenting the repair, but I can describe it in pretty good detail, I think.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 26, 2017, 12:26:10 PM
Your persistence has paid off Jamie..well done 

Tell me that you are happier than your picture suggests  ;D   
I'm pretty darned happy. I'm just a lousy model.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 26, 2017, 12:30:08 PM
Well done Jamie and many thanks for documenting this - you're the first to disclose the guts of the unit.  Glad to read it's back to normal. 

Question - what was the condition of the piston for the fronts brakes?

The frt brake solenoids seemed fine. I could move them with my fingers. I still flushed fresh fluid through them also. It's messy to do, and wastes a lot of brake fluid, but I think it works. After I buttoned everything back up, I had the idea to submerge the unit in brake fluid, but To do that, the pump motor would definitely need to come off, and I advise against that.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 26, 2017, 12:32:45 PM
That's your happy face eh?    :rotflmao:

I wouldn't want to see your mad face!!!
Seriously, I'm so glad to have my 2 wheeled therapist back on the road, I'm all relaxed and chilled out now.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 26, 2017, 12:41:31 PM
I'm filing a report with the NHTSA. Here's the link for anyone else that want's to do it.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/?_ga=1.19187646.76431778.1493232004
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on April 26, 2017, 04:14:30 PM
Great job man, many kudos..

I have a donor non functioning unit sitting here presently that I had planned on disassembling for a post mortem just as you did, but have not cracked it open yet... hopefully I find the exact same issue with this one, which will go a long way to corroberate the failure,

I will take as many photos as possible also during the event, and share them here also.

I should have done this a month ago, but the weather has not co operated here in Ohio, till just recently...

Just out of curiosity, where there any stampings and part serial numbers you noticed on the assemblies, that we may use for future references, to identify the production date or code for documentation?

Thanks again,
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 26, 2017, 09:06:34 PM
Hey MOB! Sorry I'm so late getting back on here. Been a long day fixing people's old clunkers. That's cool that You have an orphaned unit to tear down! A complete disassembly, down to the inside snap rings and valve assemblies would go a long way towards a better understanding of this thing. I have one pic here, of a pretty prominent number stamping, plus a shot of the plastic control unit with some numbers. I'm pretty disorganized when I do this stuff. 

Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on April 27, 2017, 12:49:48 AM
Would you be interested in breaking this off into a thread of it's own? The Boss could then archive the repair.

The bigger issue is hosted photos disappearing.  Photos from third-party sites often just disappear after several months, a year, or just some day, crippling what would be a good archival thread/topic.  On important threads it is best to have the photos uploaded to the native site (zggtr.org) if possible.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 27, 2017, 01:15:02 AM
The bigger issue is hosted photos disappearing.  Photos from third-party sites often just disappear after several months, a year, or just some day, crippling what would be a good archival thread/topic.  On important threads it is best to have the photos uploaded to the native site (zggtr.org) if possible.
I'd be glad to do that, only I'd have to figure out how it's done. I didn't know we could host pics directly on the forum.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on April 27, 2017, 05:48:31 AM
I'd be glad to do that, only I'd have to figure out how it's done. I didn't know we could host pics directly on the forum.

Sure, it is easy- when posting, see the option called "Attachments and other options" then use the "Attach: Browse" button.  Up to 4 photos can be attached to each posting; 6MB total.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on April 27, 2017, 06:11:11 AM
Could you not also post them in the Media section shown on the menu bar above?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on April 27, 2017, 03:07:59 PM
Going through my posts and re-posting the pics on the forum server.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on April 27, 2017, 03:15:27 PM
Could you not also post them in the Media section shown on the menu bar above?

I know not what you are talking about.  The only thing above the text posting area are controls for tags and inserting links.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on April 27, 2017, 05:10:50 PM
look up max

HOME
HELP
SEARCH
PROFILE
MY MESSAGES
MY BOOKMARKS
CALENDAR
MEMBER MAP
MEDIA
MEMBERS
LOGOUT
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on April 27, 2017, 07:59:07 PM
look up max

HOME
HELP
SEARCH
PROFILE
MY MESSAGES
MY BOOKMARKS
CALENDAR
MEMBER MAP
MEDIA
MEMBERS
LOGOUT

Oh, way up there.  Interesting, never noticed that before.  There are so many features of SMF.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on May 19, 2017, 06:00:43 PM
Great job man, many kudos..

I have a donor non functioning unit sitting here presently that I had planned on disassembling for a post mortem just as you did, but have not cracked it open yet... hopefully I find the exact same issue with this one, which will go a long way to corroberate the failure,

I will take as many photos as possible also during the event, and share them here also.

I should have done this a month ago, but the weather has not co operated here in Ohio, till just recently...

Just out of curiosity, where there any stampings and part serial numbers you noticed on the assemblies, that we may use for future references, to identify the production date or code for documentation?

Thanks again,


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: sportytoes on May 20, 2017, 09:06:43 AM
The frt brake solenoids seemed fine. I could move them with my fingers. I still flushed fresh fluid through them also. It's messy to do, and wastes a lot of brake fluid, but I think it works. After I buttoned everything back up, I had the idea to submerge the unit in brake fluid, but To do that, the pump motor would definitely need to come off, and I advise against that.
Apologies, my mind does not track well here. I wanted to clarify so that I can replicate your success.  :D

The solenoids are the 4 metal fixed tubes under the electronic control module. How did you move those with your fingers after the love taps with a mallet?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on May 20, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Apologies, my mind does not track well here. I wanted to clarify so that I can replicate your success.  :D

The solenoids are the 4 metal fixed tubes under the electronic control module. How did you move those with your fingers after the love taps with a mallet?
They move in and out. It's a very small amount. Probably 1/8 to 1/16 inch. Once freed up, the stuck solenoid on mine has functioned normally since. probably 1K miles so far.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: sportytoes on May 27, 2017, 09:49:02 AM
I partially tore down my ABS unit, and found the sticking solenoid valve. Took the snap ring out, and freed it up. Cleaned it. Wasn't terribly dirty inside. Air will now blow through the rear brake line ports. I'll reassemble tomorrow, and test it out.
Ahhh! I hav been reading lots of posts but missed the snap ring statement above. That it what i get for doing my research at midnight at the end of long days.

At this point I am past fixing my pump as I have found an alternative solution. I still have the burden of intellectual curiosity ruining my mental health. And that question is, how do you remove the snap ring? It is not intended to be a serviceable component. I see Jamie the super hero got it done. I want to be like Jamie and only a tamper resistant snap ring remains in my way. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on May 27, 2017, 02:37:08 PM
Ahhh! I hav been reading lots of posts but missed the snap ring statement above. That it what i get for doing my research at midnight at the end of long days.

At this point I am past fixing my pump as I have found an alternative solution. I still have the burden of intellectual curiosity ruining my mental health. And that question is, how do you remove the snap ring? It is not intended to be a serviceable component. I see Jamie the super hero got it done. I want to be like Jamie and only a tamper resistant snap ring remains in my way. Any suggestions?
That's a writing mistake on my part. I'm not sure why I put it that way, but when I found the sticking solenoid valve. removal of the snap ring isn't what made it free up. It wasn't even necessary, as the snap ring I removed didn't allow access to the sticking valve. I need to read over My stuff and correct the mistakes.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on February 09, 2018, 10:06:41 AM
Just a quick update on a related event. I received a call from a an NHTSA investigator in reference to this issue. He asked for any pictures I had and if any other folks had the issue. I referred him to this forum. Also, another investigator will be calling with an update.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on February 09, 2018, 04:29:33 PM
Email I recieved from NHTSA today.

"Hello James,

As per our conversation I will share your information with my college Peter Kivett. If he has any further questions he might contact you. I really appreciate you reporting this to our agency, public safety is our mission.

 

ODI- 10980896

2008 Kawasaki ZG1400A8F

Teves ABS module failure

 

James Mcclellan  is a professional mechanic  502-640-0246

He does all his own services and repairs to his motorcycle. He opened and cleaned the Teves ABS module, upon his inspection he found the brake fluid to be discolored with aluminum debris in it causing the solenoids to be stuck. He also mentioned online forums to support other riders with the same problem.

 

 

Thank You,

Santiago Maldonado"

 

Safety Defects Specialist

Medium & Heavy Duty Vehicles Division
U.S. Department Of Transportation
National Highway Traffic Safety Admin.
Office of Defects Investigation
1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.

Washington, D.C. 20590

Room W45-117
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on February 09, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
Thanks for the update Jamie - great stuff - something's happening at last.  Kaw is not doing anything public about it (yet) as failures are so low in number - but life threatening!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: lather on February 10, 2018, 03:53:20 PM
Wow, I just read this whole thread for the first time. I owned a non abs 08 from October 2007 until June 2017. So I never bothered to read ABS threads at all until now. My non abs 08 was totaled by a Toyota in May 2017 and I replaced it with an abs 08 in July. It runs great and the brakes work fantastic, better than the first 08 and the 09 (when it was running, I also have an 09 with a broken engine. ) The only problem with the abs bike was the gauge cluster had heat damage, so like the complete fool that I am I put the 09 cluster on. (Non abs).  Reading this thread it occured to me I had never felt the abs kick in nor had I noticed the  yellow light come on. The 09 cluster does not have a yellow light!.


I flushed the front brakes and clutch right after I bought it. But not the rear, cause I never, well hardly ever, use the rear brake.
So when it stops raining I am going to buy quart of DOT 4 and flush the rear and swap the guage cluster back. As I said I ownly use the rear brake now and then just to see if it is working and so far it has and did not feel abnormal, just a little weak same as my two non abs bikes. .

So what I am getting out of this thread is that there is potential for a failed abs pump without a warning light that I need to worry about and we are hoping  NHTSA will force a recall.  Have I missed anything important?

I am tempted to use parts from my non running 09 to convert the 08 to non abs.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on February 10, 2018, 05:32:11 PM

So what I am getting out of this thread is that there is potential for a failed abs pump without a warning light that I need to worry about and we are hoping  NHTSA will force a recall.  Have I missed anything important?

I am tempted to use parts from my non running 09 to convert the 08 to non abs.

Yes, You've got the gist of the issue, although, it's rare enough that it shouldn't be a huge worry. One BIG downside is that normally in automotive use, an ABS failure doesn't result in total brake loss. It usually results in the brakes still functioning as non-ABS brakes until repaired. This was not my experience on the scoot, though. Total rear brake loss. I was glad it wasn't the fronts.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on February 10, 2018, 06:27:53 PM
+1.

lather, ABS is a good thing when it works as designed - HELL, brakes are a good thing when they work as designed, which they do not if you have this failure. 


OFF TOPIC

(Regarding the yellow ABS lamp which you don't have at present, I've read on a Triumph forum that when an owner fitted ABS to his non-ABS bike from a donor bike of the same model which came with ABS he had the same problem - no yellow ABS lamp on his cluster.  IIRC he found that his non-ABS cluster actually had the circuitry of the yellow lamp but was covered over by the speedo clock face.  I don't remember how he solved his problem tho, sorry.)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: jamiemac on February 10, 2018, 08:31:48 PM
Just a note. I made the mistake of telling the G man it was a Teves ABS unit, in our phone conversation, but sent him an email and corrected it to Nissin. I'm going to send more pics of the torn down unit.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: lather on February 14, 2018, 10:54:24 AM
So I have put the ABS meter cluster back on my ABS 08 (complete with the handlebar function swith mod) Yellow light comes on when I start engine and goes off as soon as I am under way. Almost got creamed by a lady in a compacy wanting to use the same section of turning lane as me and I THINK I got one little abs hit. Flushed 6 reservoirs full of DOT 4. Stuff coming out looked same as stuff going in.

However, I can't see how this exercise does anything for the abs pump contents and I can find nothing in the manual about
the unit other than trouble shooting and R&R.

+1.

lather, ABS is a good thing when it works as designed - HELL, brakes are a good thing when they work as designed, which they do not if you have this failure. 


OFF TOPIC

(Regarding the yellow ABS lamp which you don't have at present, I've read on a Triumph forum that when an owner fitted ABS to his non-ABS bike from a donor bike of the same model which came with ABS he had the same problem - no yellow ABS lamp on his cluster.  IIRC he found that his non-ABS cluster actually had the circuitry of the yellow lamp but was covered over by the speedo clock face.  I don't remember how he solved his problem tho, sorry.)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on February 14, 2018, 03:27:43 PM
Flushing does nothing for the fluid within the valves and pump area of the unit as you say lather.  Some folks, after flushing the system, take the bike out and activate both front & rear ABS systems then do another flush.  That's probably the best one can do.  The Triumphs I mentioned can have the ABS unit flushed by using the 'dealer tool' to cycle the ABS valves while flushing - same with Can-Am Spyder. 
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: VirginiaJim on February 15, 2018, 05:42:31 AM
And that is probably a good idea....cycling (pun intended) the valves by initiating a full on stop.  At least they're moving the solenoids.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on July 22, 2019, 06:11:56 PM
Well, that's a new twist in the discussion.  Keep us posted please.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on July 22, 2019, 06:45:48 PM
2008 C14 and had the brakes flushed by dealer last week. Hadn’t done the flush in years and it was desperately needed as front brake failed (no pressure in lever). While riding home from dealer, after complete brake flush front and rear, no ABS. I was able to skid rear tire. Did the same to front tire, much more carefully as I wanted to live to share this story, and no ABS, tire locked up. I called the dealer when I got home and advised them of issue. They asked if warning light was activated on dash, which it wasn’t. They said to ride it for a while and see if it self corrects. I upped my life insurance policy and told the wife to sue K if I drop it. We’ll see how this goes. I’m going to call them back and ask about K replacing ABS pump as mentioned in this post. The brakes do work though, just no ABS feature. Fortunately, I’ve had plenty of time on non ABS bikes.

Firstly...if it was the service manager that told you 'just ride it awhile' this needs to be brought to the franchise owners notice. If you get the same reaction you need to escalate the situation to a Kawasaki regional rep. You were basically told to screw off and that the factory safety equipment wasn't important. This reaction from the dealers is unwarranted and unacceptable.

Secondly...regardless of the outcome, I would be looking for a different dealer. Good luck and stay in touch.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: gPink on July 31, 2019, 05:51:37 PM
Been about a week....How's the ABS?     :popcorn:
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: KawaCon08 on August 18, 2019, 08:42:29 PM
I recently had new tires put on my 08 Connie at the local Kawasaki dealership. Rear ABS worked fine until they changed my tire. Went to pick the bike up and had no rear brakes. Of course they diagnosed it as rear ABS failure and quoted me $1500 + labor. After a long battle with the dealership, they agreed to pay half. My OOP was $1100. Had a buddy with the same bike call me with rear ABS failure and his dealership went through Kawasaki to pick up the tab. I called my dealership with the news and they were able to do the same. I have on 08 with 34k miles. Kawasaki picked up the tab and did the right thing. I’m a Kawasaki customer for life.
If you’re experiencing rear ABS failure, I encourage you to have your dealer go through their Kawasaki rep for reimbursement.
Stay safe!
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on August 18, 2019, 11:14:33 PM
  :banana  :chugbeer:
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Conrad on August 19, 2019, 07:29:53 AM
I recently had new tires put on my 08 Connie at the local Kawasaki dealership. Rear ABS worked fine until they changed my tire. Went to pick the bike up and had no rear brakes. Of course they diagnosed it as rear ABS failure and quoted me $1500 + labor. After a long battle with the dealership, they agreed to pay half. My OOP was $1100. Had a buddy with the same bike call me with rear ABS failure and his dealership went through Kawasaki to pick up the tab. I called my dealership with the news and they were able to do the same. I have on 08 with 34k miles. Kawasaki picked up the tab and did the right thing. I’m a Kawasaki customer for life.
If you’re experiencing rear ABS failure, I encourage you to have your dealer go through their Kawasaki rep for reimbursement.
Stay safe!

I have to ask. How long have you owned the '08? Have you done regular brake flushes on the bike, every two years or so?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on August 27, 2019, 03:32:57 PM
my 08 Connie [...]Had a buddy with the same bike call me with rear ABS failure and his dealership went through Kawasaki to pick up the tab. I called my dealership with the news and they were able to do the same. I have on 08 with 34k miles. Kawasaki picked up the tab and did the right thing. I’m a Kawasaki customer for life.

That is, indeed, great.  Kawasaki isn't under any obligation to provide parts or service outside of the warranty period.  Nobody should even expect it.  Especially THAT FAR out of warranty (I assume you didn't even have any past extended warranties?)  But there are times when stepping up and doing something nice really pays back in the long run.  It creates good will and loyal customers.  It is true that bad news spreads faster, wider, and longer than good news, but good news does spread.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 27, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
I agree, please post up the dealer so we can all say a praising word for him.. in the eys of the Kaw community, I have seen 100 dealers just blow people off,  compared to the one that actually stepped up to the plate, and did due diligence, to increase the customer / owner level of satisfaction..

MANY Kudo's to that dealer..
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 10, 2020, 03:40:35 PM
Sorry to revive this old thread, but reading through it gave me hope for my 09’s rear brake. It has all the signs of stuck valve in the ABS unit. I got a bit frustrated a few days ago and jumped on the brake pedal a bit too hard. The pedal snapped off. I pulled the rest of the pedal and I’ll take the pieces in to work tomorrow and get them welded back together. The pics and comments in this thread give me great hope I can fix this myself. I let my extended warranty run out a couple years ago and I couldn’t find a replacement unit on eBay. I was actually thinking about removing the unit altogether and go back to non abs brakes. I’ll pick up a bleeder and a couple cans of brake fluid tomorrow after work. I’m off Friday so it will be my main project for the day!
Thank you for the pics and directions.

Matt
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on June 10, 2020, 06:22:16 PM
Too late for bleed & flush now.  If it's not a pebble stuck in the lever it will need another unit.  The European series 1 ZZR1400 2007-11 (ZX1400 pre traction control) is a straight swap if you can't find a series 1 ZG1400 unit.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 10, 2020, 06:30:42 PM
Too late for bleed & flush now.  If it's not a pebble stuck in the lever it will need another unit.  The European series 1 ZZR1400 2007-11 (ZX1400 pre traction control) is a straight swap if you can't find a series 1 ZG1400 unit.

I’m confused 🤷‍♂️. Why can’t I free up the valves like jamiemac did?
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on June 10, 2020, 06:39:49 PM
If you're as smart as jamie, perhaps you can.   ;D
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 13, 2020, 12:36:28 PM
If you're as smart as jamie, perhaps you can.   ;D

Apparently I’m not as sharp as Jamie! I got all four solenoids moving freely but still not allowing fluid to flow both directions. One direction it flows easily but the other way it won’t flow at all. Must be some kind of check valve that will allow the caliper to bleed off. I’m guessing one of the spool valves are still stuck. I hate to pull those snap rings but not looking like any other options right now.
If anyone has any other ideas I’m happy to listen! There are a few ZX14 units on eBay that I could buy and swap out with my electronics. They are the correct 4 port bodies. I really just want to get this one fixed, kind of a challenge at this point.

Matt
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on June 13, 2020, 06:28:11 PM
Matt, I'm gald you took no offence at my tounge-in-cheek comment.   :chugbeer:

Those tiny snap rings must be removed to free up the valves; there is no check valve within - just don't damage the bore.  Or get a ZX14 unit as you say and fit the ABS ECU from your bike to it.
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 13, 2020, 06:50:32 PM
I pulled the snap rings covering the caps on the ends. I thought those were covering some spool valves but as best I can tell one covered as best I can tell a reservoir and the other is a check valve. I’ll pull the ones over the solenoid valves tomorrow.

Matt
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 13, 2020, 08:31:46 PM
Just curious, does the collective here know specifically which solenoid valve it is that gets stuck?

Matt
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on June 14, 2020, 05:52:17 AM
In Jamie's pic below it's the upper pair for the rear brake that you need to remove.  The snap ring ends are cut at an angle.  One end you can hook a fine instrument on to remove the clip, the other end you can't.  With the snap ring in place 1 valve moves about 1mm, the other something less.  Ensure the other pair (front) rotate and move; they require a small amount of effort to do so - more than I would have thought.


(https://i.imgur.com/IPaeuPV.jpg)



To state the obvious - ensure the hoses/pipes are refitted whence they came.  Refer to the parts pic below if in doubt.

https://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2009/zg1400-1400gtr/brake-piping#next (https://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2009/zg1400-1400gtr/brake-piping#next)

https://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2009/zg1400-1400gtr/rear-master-cylinder-1-2#next (https://www.kawasakionlineparts.com.au/partFinder/fiche/kawasaki/2009/zg1400-1400gtr/rear-master-cylinder-1-2#next)
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 15, 2020, 07:49:56 AM
Well, I have failed! A used ZX14 unit is ordered from eBay. I will swap the electronics from my unit to the eBay pump and the rest should be a basic reinstall and bleed. The solenoid valve laying out in the picture is hopelessly stuck. There is no way to disassemble it further and still be useable. Too bad mama Kaw doesn't sell the individual valves! It looks to me like they are assembled and the laser welded into a solid assembly.
New pump should be here on Friday. I guess if I want to ride this week, it will have to be on the wife's cruiser.

Matt
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: basmntdweller on June 21, 2020, 12:40:28 PM
Brakes are back to normal! I ended up just swapping one of the valves from the eBay unit into my old unit. Everything went back together but I ended up with a leftover screw from somewhere!
I have to admit there are several things I hate about working on brakes. Invariably I get fluid on my hands and after the job is done, I always feel like the pedal/lever is spongier than before. I did test ride and it stops as good as it ever did. Anti locks seemed to function properly as well. I had to ride through my yard to get the front to activate.

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: maxtog on June 21, 2020, 02:53:54 PM
Brakes are back to normal! I ended up just swapping one of the valves from the eBay unit into my old unit.

Congratulations! 

Quote
Everything went back together but I ended up with a leftover screw from somewhere!

I think that has happened to all of us.  It certainly has to me...

Title: Re: Rear Brake/ABS Pump issue
Post by: Freddy on June 21, 2020, 05:57:23 PM
 :chugbeer: