Author Topic: We're doomed!  (Read 19013 times)

Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2017, 08:35:49 PM »
Ah, the 'A- team' argument. So what would you have us do Max, nothing more than what was done pre- 911? That is not only political suicide but frankly, reckless.

It would certainly be political suicide, but I am not sure about reckless

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Would you NOT increase security in our airports? Or would you have the occasional air liner fall out of the sky as a fireball?

The second portion of that is more like a straw-man argument....  The first part I will address.  I would increase security based on actual prevention.  All this crap started 9/11 and the main reason?  Because the doors on the cockpit were not strong/secure.  Yes, it might be an oversimplification, but I think it mostly boils down to that.  Restrictions on lighters, toenail clippers, tiny quantities of toiletries, blunt butter knives, baby food, shirts with Arabic writing on them, and micro-nude scans are absurd.  Couple that with a "secret" no-fly list that no normal person can query or challenge, and you throw the Constitution right out the window. 

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Please understand I am not throwing rocks at that position but you have to take responsibility IF that is your position. We have to make a choice, and cannot stand dumb and deaf to reality, so the choices are 1) do something, with all the wrongs and faults of that or 2) do nothing, and allow others to determine the course of our future.

It depends on what people find acceptable.  If never having a single plane EVER go down due to security- that is probably just impossible.  And if that is the goal, then ridiculous amounts of security- hundreds of times what we do now, will make no difference.  It will just make air travel nearly impossible.  Ban all carry-on, require everyone to be strip searched and then put on jail uniforms, and be handcuffed to the seats during travel; but what about the plane staff?  The maintenance crews?  The baggage handlers? The security agents, themselves?

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The easy thing is always to complain and find fault in the current situation or others' behavior but what would YOU suggest as an alternative?

It is not as if anyone is going to listen to me, anyway :)

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No scans at US airports? Allowing passengers in the us, or flying to the US, to freely board planes w/out searches or increased security?

I think that mostly the levels of security we had before 9-11 were reasonable, just add some fast technology upgrades.  You could get through security lines in 5 minutes.  Remember, current security which is WAY overkill and invasive has been shown to be 95% ineffective.  So, theoretically, if we cut out 95% of what was introduced by 9-11, we will be no worse than before.  Being told to arrive TWO HOURS before a flight is just insane!  Add that to all the traditional headaches: the drive there, parking, late planes, delays on the runways, missed connections, lost or damaged luggage, and it is no wonder people are avoiding flying as much as possible and the entire industry is hurting badly.

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[...]Sorry, but I find the whole issue to be complicated rather than simple. And those with simple answers are the people with answers that will not work. And frankly, while I support thoughtful approach to all problems, I find the thoughtless ranting of the masses to be truly frightening.

It is the thoughtless ranting that brought on the extremely expensive, 95% ineffective, and unacceptable security we have now.  "Save the children!!!"  We responded emotionally, not rationally, not with science, to the situation.  But you are right, it is complicated.  I am not a travel security expert, so I don't know exactly what best approaches to use, but what we have now is obviously not the best approach by all kinds of measures including results, timeliness, cost, privacy, and convenience.   I have had direct experience with the "new" security theater several times now in airports and, to me (and many others), it is unacceptable- if for no other reason, the slowness.  At least some of the most insane security measures were cut back over time, but only after pissing off millions of people for too long.  If bombs are the main concern, then focus on rapid chemical detection technology and give all the rest of the stuff a rest!

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2017, 09:14:59 PM »
Yep, true enough. And while my base thoughts are to agree with that, there are two things in the way: the US Consittution, which no matter how one reads it, prevents profiling, and the fact that the 'bad people' are not as easily identified as it at first seems.

The first part is easy: read the document, study a very small amount of US judicial law and find the weak spot to pass through. Well, easy in concept, not so easy in practice.

The second part is tougher: say you can identify the 'bad people' and prevent them from flying / walking around freely and so forth. Problem solved..... or is it? If there are any smart 'bad people' and 911 proves there are, then the easy way would be for the 'bad people' to simply stock the ole' grandma' from Duluth, coming back from visiting her newest grandbaby, with a small bomb in her luggage which WILL NOT be searched because she is not one of the 'bad people'. If that is not possible, perhaps loading her car with explosives and sending her off to the nearest mall and then detonating them. See the problem?

As a middle- aged, white, male born and bred in the US of A, and absolutely leaning toward the right, I would love for the solution to be that simple. And to just kinda' nod and wink at the constitution. But is is not and I cannot. The modern world presents a real problem and the response is both complex and not entirely effective.

BTW: I am writing this while waiting for the clock to turn sufficiently for me to go pick up my wife (again I guess, as I 'picked her up' long, long ago :-)  ) at the airport. She is flying in from BWI, and I am angry at her having to go through the screening at two airports, and glad for the screening of all the OTHER passengers at the same time. As I said, it is complicated.

Brian

Edited for the post to make sense, such as I am able to make sense in posting anything.
It would be a confidence builder if the US security protocols included looking for bad people along with guns, knives and fingernail clippers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:45:56 PM by B.D.F. »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2017, 09:29:44 PM »
Uh oh, you are getting dangerously close to both the truth and 'national blasphemy', all in one stroke (Easy Boys! I know nothing of Max's strokes nor do I want to).

I do not have time to respond to this properly as I have to pick up my wife at the 'very safe' airport but if this thread is not locked or moved to the arena, will do so tomorrow. But always remember, there are truths that cannot be spoken and absolutely certainly not addressed in any meaningful way. And part of this truth is what some totalerian gov'ts got and get right. But it will not and cannot fly in any modern western country, at least not out in the open.

Brian

It would certainly be political suicide, but I am not sure about reckless

The second portion of that is more like a straw-man argument....  The first part I will address.  I would increase security based on actual prevention.  All this crap started 9/11 and the main reason?  Because the doors on the cockpit were not strong/secure.  Yes, it might be an oversimplification, but I think it mostly boils down to that.  Restrictions on lighters, toenail clippers, tiny quantities of toiletries, blunt butter knives, baby food, shirts with Arabic writing on them, and micro-nude scans are absurd.  Couple that with a "secret" no-fly list that no normal person can query or challenge, and you throw the Constitution right out the window. 

It depends on what people find acceptable.  If never having a single plane EVER go down due to security- that is probably just impossible.  And if that is the goal, then ridiculous amounts of security- hundreds of times what we do now, will make no difference.  It will just make air travel nearly impossible.  Ban all carry-on, require everyone to be strip searched and then put on jail uniforms, and be handcuffed to the seats during travel; but what about the plane staff?  The maintenance crews?  The baggage handlers? The security agents, themselves?

It is not as if anyone is going to listen to me, anyway :)

I think that mostly the levels of security we had before 9-11 were reasonable, just add some fast technology upgrades.  You could get through security lines in 5 minutes.  Remember, current security which is WAY overkill and invasive has been shown to be 95% ineffective.  So, theoretically, if we cut out 95% of what was introduced by 9-11, we will be no worse than before.  Being told to arrive TWO HOURS before a flight is just insane!  Add that to all the traditional headaches: the drive there, parking, late planes, delays on the runways, missed connections, lost or damaged luggage, and it is no wonder people are avoiding flying as much as possible and the entire industry is hurting badly.

It is the thoughtless ranting that brought on the extremely expensive, 95% ineffective, and unacceptable security we have now.  "Save the children!!!"  We responded emotionally, not rationally, not with science, to the situation.  But you are right, it is complicated.  I am not a travel security expert, so I don't know exactly what best approaches to use, but what we have now is obviously not the best approach by all kinds of measures including results, timeliness, cost, privacy, and convenience.   I have had direct experience with the "new" security theater several times now in airports and, to me (and many others), it is unacceptable- if for no other reason, the slowness.  At least some of the most insane security measures were cut back over time, but only after pissing off millions of people for too long.  If bombs are the main concern, then focus on rapid chemical detection technology and give all the rest of the stuff a rest!

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2017, 02:45:39 AM »

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.

Living in the UK through the 70's &  80's bag searches, rub downs , under/in vehicle searches, scanning of mail etc were (relatively) commonplace when going into many public buildings mainly (but not exclusively) due to the activities of our Irish cousins (and to a smaller degree Welsh Language Activists although they concentrated mainly on burning down holiday cottages in Wales owned by the English or painting cars green).

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Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2017, 03:48:12 AM »
Gotta ask.... Do you Brits feel safer?

Telegraph.co.uk

One surveillance camera for every 11 people in Britain, says CCTV survey
Britain has a CCTV camera for every 11 people, a security industry report disclosed, as privacy campaigners criticised the growth of the “surveillance state”.

By David Barrett, Home Affairs Correspondent6:30PM BST 10 Jul 2013

The British Security Industry Authority (BSIA) estimated there are up to 5.9 million closed-circuit television cameras in the country, including 750,000 in “sensitive locations” such as schools, hospitals and care homes.
The survey’s maximum estimate works out at one for every 11 people in the UK, although the BSIA said the most likely figure was 4.9 million cameras in total, or one for every 14 people.

Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2017, 04:27:04 AM »
Gotta ask.... Do you Brits feel safer?

Telegraph.co.uk

One surveillance camera for every 11 people in Britain, says CCTV survey
Britain has a CCTV camera for every 11 people, a security industry report disclosed, as privacy campaigners criticised the growth of the “surveillance state”.

By David Barrett, Home Affairs Correspondent6:30PM BST 10 Jul 2013

The British Security Industry Authority (BSIA) estimated there are up to 5.9 million closed-circuit television cameras in the country, including 750,000 in “sensitive locations” such as schools, hospitals and care homes.
The survey’s maximum estimate works out at one for every 11 people in the UK, although the BSIA said the most likely figure was 4.9 million cameras in total, or one for every 14 people.

Me personally ? Yes I feel less at risk in many ways than I did back in the 70's & 80's

I'd also be more than happy to have a national  ID card system , ok maybe a bit biased as ex forces.

Oddly enough (& sort of back to Max's point about moving on to other "targets" as you lock one down) as CCTV has been put into an area crime in that area has gone down in many cases and moved on to places without CCTV thus prompting the growth of CCTV.

The only cameras that bother me are the revenue generators operated by the Police, Highways authorities & councils ;)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2017, 12:29:52 PM »
But I do not believe most of this applies to the US as far as earlier terrorism. The US was <relatively> free of terrorism until the 1990's, and even then rare enough that we basically ignored it. And one of the biggest terrorist act (I believe the biggest ever) was perpetrated by a main- stream, native born American, and it was done  out in the open with a 'car bomb', so that did not generate any real increase in security. So your experience with many, smaller, acts of terrorism going back decades do not apply here.

Our entry into the group of countries suffering from targeted, international terrorism came in 2001, and we have over- reacted, really pretty seriously over- reacted.

So I think the comparison thinking between the people of our two countries just does not apply to anything and is incompatible.

Brian

Me personally ? Yes I feel less at risk in many ways than I did back in the 70's & 80's

I'd also be more than happy to have a national  ID card system , ok maybe a bit biased as ex forces.

Oddly enough (& sort of back to Max's point about moving on to other "targets" as you lock one down) as CCTV has been put into an area crime in that area has gone down in many cases and moved on to places without CCTV thus prompting the growth of CCTV.

The only cameras that bother me are the revenue generators operated by the Police, Highways authorities & councils ;)
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2017, 12:42:50 PM »
True, most of your "domestic" incidents were the work of loners /pairs of nutters rather than organised bodies. 

You had the Unabomber sending out letter bombs from the late 70's until the mid 90's followed by the Oklahoma truck bombing also in the mid 90's IIRC closely followed by the Olympic bombing in 96.

Mind you you've also had your fair share of non terrorist  race/religion based "troubles" over the years to compensate ;)


But I do not believe most of this applies to the US as far as earlier terrorism. The US was <relatively> free of terrorism until the 1990's, and even then rare enough that we basically ignored it. And one of the biggest terrorist act (I believe the biggest ever) was perpetrated by a main- stream, native born American, and it was done  out in the open with a 'car bomb', so that did not generate any real increase in security. So your experience with many, smaller, acts of terrorism going back decades do not apply here.

Our entry into the group of countries suffering from targeted, international terrorism came in 2001, and we have over- reacted, really pretty seriously over- reacted.

So I think the comparison thinking between the people of our two countries just does not apply to anything and is incompatible.

Brian
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2017, 02:45:03 PM »
Well, a couple of thoughts in reply:

First, the mechanics and actual implementation, such a list of what is / what is not dangerous is silly because that is what happens when one writes down a list to select items in the first place. But that is just a nuance IMO and does not change the bigger picture, and there really is not a functional way around it. Without an outright definition or list in this case, we end up with "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that" - Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court. Now, do we really want a gazillion TSA agents deciding what is dangerous without a list but simply 'knowing it when they see it'? Not me, I like my rules written down.

I believe your comparison of current security  levels vs. pre- 2001 levels and the results are fundamentally flawed because while a very specific method was used on 911 and it would be easy to stop that (we are in agreement here; reinforce the cockpit doors and be done with it), the larger picture is that the entire terrorist world, domestic and international, was schooled on how easy it was to access commercial aircraft for terrorist acts. So the exact plan of 911 is stopped by an armored door but that would just drive someone two steps to the left to commit other terrorist acts, in a slightly different way. So you cannot view a large problem such as terrorism, sight one example, propose a cure for that specific example and claim that overall terrorism would be reduced IMO. Want an example? After hardening access to all planes cockpits, a terrorist could buy / steal / make an airline worker's uniform and hang a library card from a neck band (to serve as an Airlines ID- who looks anyway) and put 50 lbs. of high explosive anywhere on the plane, the easy way being in plain sight as baggage. How about grab a USP truck and uniform, fill it with explosives, and drive it to a terminal as close as possible. The point being that if you have a ship full of rats and find out exactly where they are getting into the ship, closing that port will do not good as the rats will simply use another hole, so a practical approach MUST involve a general ship tightening...... or what we could call general increased security to be effective. The degree of security is negotiable but the underlying principle holds. So addressing the cockpit access would not be sufficient IMO and would do nothing to address the larger problem of airlines and terrorists, merely steer the culprits from one very specific method to the many (infinite?) others available.

The other side of the same coin is to say that if a determined person or persons are going to commit some crime, there is nothing that will stop them, and therefore any security is pointless. So a car or motorcycle model having very high theft rates might as well forego any and all security measures, starting with locking it, because it will not work anyway. It seems logical but is incorrect because the percentage of thefts will increase as security drops off.

Now the final part of your post is the most interesting to me, the most dangerous to speak about and the one that cannot be employed. I believe you are speaking of risk / reward, or cost- benefit ratio. I am a fan of this myself and apply it often but not so much out- loud 'cause of all the incoming bricks, people gathering with torches and pitch forks, etc. It actually starts with indisputable facts that also cannot be stated: if you have aircraft flying around, you are going to have plane crashes. If some of those planes carry people, some of those crashes are going to kill some of the people who fly. It cannot be prevented. This applies to cars, firearms, electricity..... look up bucket drownings for an extreme example. We can reduce the incidents of mishaps and we can reduce the levels of injury on average (seat belts, air bags for example) but we CANNOT eliminate them. But with things such as air safety, we want zero deaths. It ain't gonna' happen but we cannot state it otherwise. Now the tough part: reducing the death rates costs something, and as no one and no entity, no matter how large, has infinite amounts of resources, some amount of deaths must be tolerated, expected, and 'allowed' to occur. We use cars everyday, we have auto deaths everyday and we quietly (because we cannot talk about it.... torches and pitchforks and all) accept it as a cost in the cost to benefit ratio. We have determined that a balance of circa 40,000 auto deaths in the US per year is an acceptable price to pay for the benefit of all of us having the use of cars. But it cannot be stated that way.

The same thing applies to everything but gets even more socially unacceptable to be stated: airlines, for example, and some types of cancer jump to mind. Trying to find an acceptable balance between security and terrorist deaths is readily doable but cannot be implemented because it is distasteful and totally unacceptable as a method to our society. Child cancers are extremely rare and so get a hugely disproportionate amount of money, research, time and effort, along with a hugely poor cost to benefit ratio but who could possibly suggest cutting back on any of this would be promptly burned at the stake. Cancer in children is quite tragic and really pulls at the old heart- strings of just about everyone (myself included) and so we allow emotion to make what are really straightforward, logical decisions. I believe this is not possible to 'fix' and so we will have to live w/in these restrictions forever: Airlines MUST be 100% safe, with all partied, the Gov't, the airlines, the airplane manufacturer, etc. etc. responsible to prevent ANY accidents or other acts that would cause deaths. And when those deaths do occur, as they always will (uh- oh, mob forming outside) we must absolutely pummel, punish, disgrace and basically terrorize anyone / everyone involved with that flight. Same thing with medical mistakes (honest mistakes, not fraud, etc.); we will not accept that they happen, will always happen and so go to excessive lengths to eliminate them, which of course cannot be done.

Brian (in his non- fun, not light or amused mode)

It would certainly be political suicide, but I am not sure about reckless

The second portion of that is more like a straw-man argument....  The first part I will address.  I would increase security based on actual prevention.  All this crap started 9/11 and the main reason?  Because the doors on the cockpit were not strong/secure.  Yes, it might be an oversimplification, but I think it mostly boils down to that.  Restrictions on lighters, toenail clippers, tiny quantities of toiletries, blunt butter knives, baby food, shirts with Arabic writing on them, and micro-nude scans are absurd.  Couple that with a "secret" no-fly list that no normal person can query or challenge, and you throw the Constitution right out the window. 

It depends on what people find acceptable.  If never having a single plane EVER go down due to security- that is probably just impossible.  And if that is the goal, then ridiculous amounts of security- hundreds of times what we do now, will make no difference.  It will just make air travel nearly impossible.  Ban all carry-on, require everyone to be strip searched and then put on jail uniforms, and be handcuffed to the seats during travel; but what about the plane staff?  The maintenance crews?  The baggage handlers? The security agents, themselves?

It is not as if anyone is going to listen to me, anyway :)

I think that mostly the levels of security we had before 9-11 were reasonable, just add some fast technology upgrades.  You could get through security lines in 5 minutes.  Remember, current security which is WAY overkill and invasive has been shown to be 95% ineffective.  So, theoretically, if we cut out 95% of what was introduced by 9-11, we will be no worse than before.  Being told to arrive TWO HOURS before a flight is just insane!  Add that to all the traditional headaches: the drive there, parking, late planes, delays on the runways, missed connections, lost or damaged luggage, and it is no wonder people are avoiding flying as much as possible and the entire industry is hurting badly.

It is the thoughtless ranting that brought on the extremely expensive, 95% ineffective, and unacceptable security we have now.  "Save the children!!!"  We responded emotionally, not rationally, not with science, to the situation.  But you are right, it is complicated.  I am not a travel security expert, so I don't know exactly what best approaches to use, but what we have now is obviously not the best approach by all kinds of measures including results, timeliness, cost, privacy, and convenience.   I have had direct experience with the "new" security theater several times now in airports and, to me (and many others), it is unacceptable- if for no other reason, the slowness.  At least some of the most insane security measures were cut back over time, but only after pissing off millions of people for too long.  If bombs are the main concern, then focus on rapid chemical detection technology and give all the rest of the stuff a rest!

And the REALLY crazy thing is that all this focus on planes, which only carry a few dozen to a few hundred people- the terrorists can and will just switch to one of a zillion other MUCH easier targets instead.  Malls, sporting events, interstate roads, libraries, schools, hospitals, churches, trains, buses... we can't secure everything everywhere due to irrational fear.  And when we try, the terrorist have won- they have destroyed freedom and instilled terror.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2017, 03:16:10 PM »
sad to say but as Brian said (in not so many words) , if somebody wants to do something they will find a way.

It could be argued that he methodology used on 9/11 was predicated by improved security around hold luggage after bombings such as Pan Am Flight 103 and Air India Flight 182 in the mid to late 80's

I was in Toronto at the time of the Air India bomb actually staying in the same hotel that the flight crew had been staying in and flew out myself 2 days later.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2017, 03:17:59 PM »
I believe your comparison of current security  levels vs. pre- 2001 levels and the results are fundamentally flawed because while a very specific method was used on 911 and it would be easy to stop that (we are in agreement here; reinforce the cockpit doors and be done with it), the larger picture is that the entire terrorist world, domestic and international, was schooled on how easy it was to access commercial aircraft for terrorist acts.

But they could have and would have before 9-11, too, if there was motivation.  I am not saying security should not be improved, but not "improved" in ways that are just plan stupid and slow.  Upgrade detectors.  Add more detectors.  Upgrade software to identify things better.  Use better information.  Sure!  But having people take off belts and shoes and looking for nail clippers is just stupid.

Quote
The other side of the same coin is to say that if a determined person or persons are going to commit some crime, there is nothing that will stop them, and therefore any security is pointless.

It is a good thing neither I nor most people would make such an argument :)

Quote
Now the final part of your post is the most interesting to me, the most dangerous to speak about and the one that cannot be employed. I believe you are speaking of risk / reward, or cost- benefit ratio. I am a fan of this myself and apply it often but not so much out- loud

You would be correct not only in understanding was I was saying in that part, but also everything you wrote about it.  Which also ties in quite nicely to this part I said earlier:

It is not as if anyone is going to listen to me, anyway :)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2017, 03:37:56 PM »
That was my point Mike: I do not believe we (US) had compatible terrorist situations to you (UK) before 2001.

Basically, you seem to have suffered generalized but <relatively> small but constant terrorist events from specific sources (the basic 'Irish problem') while our incidents were fewer, often larger I think but not coming from any particular source. So there was no public- demanded response on our side as I believe there was on yours.

Your examples of some of our 'terrorists' are excellent I think: the Unabomber, while he got a fair amount of ink and lasted a long time as terrorists goes, did not do much damage and none to the general public. The two men who took out the Murrah building in Oklahoma were not mentally deficient, at least not IMO, but determined, focused, cunning and able individuals. It was a one- off event, and not generalized in any way; the target was very specific (US Fed. Gov't, even more specifically the Department of Justice) and the cause was two very specific events caused directly by elements of the DOJ. So again, nothing to focus a lot of national efforts on to stop because no 'theme' or group.

And BTW, as an aside, the perpetrators of two of the three events you mention were all held in one of the most secure prisons in the US, in a special section of that prison colloquially knows as "Bomber's row"; Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) and Terry Nichols (Murrah building bombing, Oklahoma) are still there, serving 8 and 161 consecutive life- sentences respectively. Timothy McVeigh (Murrah building bombing) was serving there until being removed to be executed elsewhere.

Brian

True, most of your "domestic" incidents were the work of loners /pairs of nutters rather than organised bodies. 

You had the Unabomber sending out letter bombs from the late 70's until the mid 90's followed by the Oklahoma truck bombing also in the mid 90's IIRC closely followed by the Olympic bombing in 96.

Mind you you've also had your fair share of non terrorist  race/religion based "troubles" over the years to compensate ;)
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2017, 03:54:51 PM »
Excellent point about increased security from the '80's having a direct link to the methodology used in 2001 and one that I have not heard or considered before. But I think you are right.

Not saying anyone or any change in security is to be blamed at all, just the unintended consequences of certain acts.

Brian

sad to say but as Brian said (in not so many words) , if somebody wants to do something they will find a way.

It could be argued that he methodology used on 9/11 was predicated by improved security around hold luggage after bombings such as Pan Am Flight 103 and Air India Flight 182 in the mid to late 80's

I was in Toronto at the time of the Air India bomb actually staying in the same hotel that the flight crew had been staying in and flew out myself 2 days later.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2017, 04:08:59 PM »
there's also the mindset to consider.

Back in the 70's there were a large number of aircraft hijackings, the big difference is that the people responsible were more generally intent on living than dying. (Operation Entebbe is one that springs to mind plus there were a couple of others involfing German aircraft & the PLO)

You could ask yourself why airlines etc didn't react back then to secure cockpit doors, dare I say (without meaning to offend anyone) that there was a degree of NIMBYism at work that you guys didn't get until 9/11


[NIMBY =Not In My BackYard for those not familiar]

Interesting aside from a Mass Murder-Suicide that took place in California in 1964 (I don't remember that one, I was only born in March that year)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Air_Lines_Flight_773

Aftermath
Civil air regulation amendments became effective on August 6, 1964, that required that doors separating the passenger cabin from the crew compartment on all scheduled air carrier and commercial aircraft must be kept locked in flight.[4] An exception to the rule remains during takeoff and landing on certain aircraft, such as the Fairchild F-27, where the cockpit door leads to an emergency passenger exit. The amendments were passed by the Federal Aviation Administration prior to the crash of Flight 773, but had not yet become effective.


Was that repealed at some point then ?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2017, 04:39:10 PM »
As an American, I agree with you 100% and take no offense at all. And I think you are correct: we did not have to deal with the problem because we did not have the problem, or at least not until we ventured out of our country.

We are all  in this boat: we only really react to that which benefits us or cause us misery. Both of our countries are heavily involved in the Middle East, wading through 'their' problems. But not much interest or effort in, say, African countries where there are all kinds of social problems, wars, and so forth. But little- to- no Western country intervention..... because they have nothing of interest to us such as. What has us in the Mideast is one single item: oil. We say we are there in the interests of humanity but the real reason is a smaller slice of humanity, specifically 'us' and that includes you (UK). So we maintain a presence and to a large degree, control over sections of the region.... and the oil flows. BTW: both of my sons served in 'The Sand Box', one in Afghanistan, twice, back in the early, harsher days and the other in Iraq in relative safety of a large compound. Both came home mostly fine (no physical wounds) and functional though not without some lasting damage. And the oil continues to flow.

Man, we're gonna' need a joke or three to lighten up this thread; real life is so often not fun.

Brian

there's also the mindset to consider.

Back in the 70's there were a large number of aircraft hijackings, the big difference is that the people responsible were more generally intent on living than dying. (Operation Entebbe is one that springs to mind plus there were a couple of others involfing German aircraft & the PLO)

You could ask yourself why airlines etc didn't react back then to secure cockpit doors, dare I say (without meaning to offend anyone) that there was a degree of NIMBYism at work that you guys didn't get until 9/11


[NIMBY =Not In My BackYard for those not familiar]
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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2017, 05:06:18 PM »
Man, we're gonna' need a joke or three to lighten up this thread; real life is so often not fun.

Indeed.  Lest someone bring up the concept that if you give in to terrorists or their demands, then you automatically give them power and encourage them to continue to do the same thing.  As heartless as it sounds, refusing to negotiate with terrorists denies them power and shows them they can't win.

Ironically, since now certain breeds of terrorists place no value on their OWN life (suicide bombers, etc), we are free to categorize them as irrational and impossible to negotiate with... they are going to kill everyone in their power, anyway.  If they have a plane, or a set of hostages, there is no point in trying to negotiate with these types of terrorists, just move to the next step of whatever you have to do to stop them as quickly as possible (like send in the SWAT) just hoping to minimize the inevitable damage.
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Offline mikeyw64

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2017, 11:28:35 PM »

Man, we're gonna' need a joke or three to lighten up this thread; real life is so often not fun.




Well if you believe in the maxim that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter then the entire US of A (since Independence) is founded on terrorism


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Offline Icefever

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2017, 02:28:02 AM »
Gotta ask.... Do you Brits feel safer?

Telegraph.co.uk

One surveillance camera for every 11 people in Britain, says CCTV survey
Britain has a CCTV camera for every 11 people, a security industry report disclosed, as privacy campaigners criticised the growth of the “surveillance state”.

I think the answer to that is...where a person lives....we live in a small village,  if we have any trouble it's small stuff like somebody's dog barking. On the other side of the coin, there are some places  like Birmingham, London,  etc where I would not feel safe.

Both the USA & UK are experiencing some real big problems over the last few years,  CCTV has been very helpful at piecing together the run-up to the attacks....but do we feel safe??? I would say yes to a point.

Offline gPink

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2017, 03:45:25 AM »
Thank you , gentlemen. I appreciate the candor as the question was asked in all seriousness.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: We're doomed!
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2017, 05:10:10 AM »
An extremely important point that is also not politically correct to talk about, at least not in the US. Our (US) murder rate is high but it is extremely isolated in very well defined and very limited areas. Almost every day there are news headlines about murders in Chicago but that is misleading to the point that it is a lie: the high rate of murder occurs in the South side of Chicago, not Chicago. Same exact thing with Los Angeles, New York City (high crime rates are tied to both the boroughs; Queens, The Bronx, Staten Island, Brooklyn and Manhattan, as well as specific areas w/in those boroughs. So is New York City safe? It depends entirely on where you are standing and the risk of being injured / robbed or involved or the victim of a crime, especially a violent crime varies from substantial to just about zero. Some time ago, Washington D.C. was the murder capitol of the US.... but not on Embassy row, in front of the White house, on the capitol steps, and in any number of neighborhoods.

And the same goes for our (the US) little bursts of outrageously bad behavior such as Ferguson, MO and several other communities; these events simply do not occur where I live and I do not mean very often, I mean they DO NOT HAPPEN at all. So my risk of getting caught in one of those total breakdowns of order and out- of- control looting, shooting and arson on a city- wide level is zero.

So again, while we (US) have a lot of shootings / murders, come visit me and we can sit outside in lawn chairs and wait for the most exciting things to happen.... and I betcha' you get bored and fall asleep before any such 'event' appears.

Brian

I think the answer to that is...where a person lives....we live in a small village,  if we have any trouble it's small stuff like somebody's dog barking. On the other side of the coin, there are some places  like Birmingham, London,  etc where I would not feel safe.

Both the USA & UK are experiencing some real big problems over the last few years,  CCTV has been very helpful at piecing together the run-up to the attacks....but do we feel safe??? I would say yes to a point.
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