Transmission problem

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

On the way to work my throttle stuck and I had to wait about a half mile to pull over with a semi on my tail. There was smoke coming from the clutch housing. I stopped and unstuck the throttle. It starts fine, but if I put it in first there is no clunk. When I let out the clutch the bike does not move and the engine dies. It concerns me that I can put it in gear and the bike doesn't move. If I fried the clutch (which I think I did), I would think the bike would start moving on its own. Did I kill the transmission too?

[gPink]

Does the back wheel turn when the bikes on the centerstand?

[jettawreck]

If you fried the clutch friction disc(s), I think it would not move as you are experiencing.

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

Does the back wheel turn when the bikes on the centerstand?

I can turn the wheel by hand and push the bike when it is in neutral or any gear.

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

If you fried the clutch friction disc(s), I think it would not move as you are experiencing.

That is reassuring, thanks.

[jimmymac]

That sounds like something other than friction discs.
Unless your clutch has been slipping forever.

[Brad Baerwald]

Am I the only guy here that's confused by Dan has written here?

1) Throttle stuck?? WOW with a double cabled throttle system?

2) stuck in front of a semi. Ok but how does this factor in?

3) Smoke coming from the clutch housing?  You mean from the engine? Aren't "they" all in there together?

4) engine dies when you let the clutch out in all gears? (On the center stand)  You say the bike doesn't move. like NOTHING at all?  or it barely moves?   Aren't these bikes equipped with a kickstand kill switch?  I'm wondering about that.  Or maybe you have it on the center stand AND the normal kick stand is down too.  If the bike is "stuck" in any gear (with the normal stand down) that switch will kill the engine! (as you let out the clutch)  if the ciruit has faild,  I don't know wether or not thats a normally open or closed circuit? to even check it?

The guys here are fantastic at "long distance diagnostics"  They saved my butt!  I think they are gonna need a lot of clarification here... I know I do, However I realize my own limitations

and I only say the kickstand kill switch because how do you kill an engine with no load... unless the gear box is jammed and then you'd hear the engine "load up" and stall in proportion to the clutch being let out.  Like I said, I'm confused by what appears here to be conflicts and missing info.  BTW if this last description is the case, then logically I would think the clutch is fine?

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

I sat on the bike with the kickstand up and it does nothing when I put it in gear. I can put it in gear and take it out easily, so I am thinking it is just the clutch. It acts like it is in neutral even when it is in gear, so maybe the clutch is engaged and stuck. I appreciate all your replies.

Oh, about the stuck throttle. Something on the carb cracked a while ago and I wired it to keep it from sticking. It is part of the carb housing that broke, so it can't just be replaced. I pulled hard to pass a truck and it got stuck on. It looks like I will have to find a better way than just the wire to keep it from sticking.

[Thud300]

What does the fluid look like in the clutch master cylinder?

If it looks like chocolate milk, flush that system and make sure your ports are clear in the reservoir.

[Brad Baerwald]

Dan,   thanks for explaining the throtlle thing a little more clearly.  you obviously need to replace the carb in question.

I feel like I'm beating you up here but I still can't make heads or tails of your description of the clutch / gearbox issues.  matter of fact, so much so  that I can't figure out how to ask you questions to help me understand, so I apologize if I seem dense here but this is something that should be able to be figured out by solid logic. 

I agree with thud300  and I've read posts here of a guy who's return hole in his clutch reservoir  was so pluged that when the fluild in the line got hot it expanded enough to disengage the clutch completely.   One of the super knowledgable guy's like SISF or MOB (I think it was) said that the splines on the rear wheel can inexplicably disapear and diconnect the engine from the drivetrain (and not make any noise that would indicate it had done it! )  also looking like a clutch problem. 

[MAN OF BLUES]

Dan,   thanks for explaining the throtlle thing a little more clearly.  you obviously need to replace the carb in question.

I feel like I'm beating you up here but I still can't make heads or tails of your description of the clutch / gearbox issues.  matter of fact, so much so  that I can't figure out how to ask you questions to help me understand, so I apologize if I seem dense here but this is something that should be able to be figured out by solid logic. 

I agree with thud300  and I've read posts here of a guy who's return hole in his clutch reservoir  was so pluged that when the fluild in the line got hot it expanded enough to disengage the clutch completely.   One of the super knowledgable guy's like SISF or MOB (I think it was) said that the splines on the rear wheel can inexplicably disapear and diconnect the engine from the drivetrain (and not make any noise that would indicate it had done it! )  also looking like a clutch problem.

bingo

he mentioned he could shift it, and it won't move in any gear... big clue. locked up tranny won't shift, ever.

I was thinking hjb spline right from thde start, they fail without warning,  Id pull that wheel off, wipe all the grease out of the splines on the wheel side, and examine it closely... the drive side (male splines) are hardened, and seldom go bad, but the wheel side ones are soft, and sacraficial... luckily that hub part is removable, and fairly cheap tonreplace....

you may also have a broken star spring in the clutch, which will prevent correct engagement, but check that wheel hub first, before removing the clutch cover. I don't think the smoke thing, related to any of this either. just another spot to examine further.. if you were clamping on the brakes and holding them on while the throttle was open at freeway speed, for a distance, you likely did heat up the clutch tho, and or the rear hub, you didn't clarify enough of what was going on to say...

oh, kinda late noww to mention this, but as you have found, buggering up a bailing wire fix on a carb for anything other than emergency use to get you home to fix it properly, is both dangerous, and foolish.

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

Thanks for the new suggestions. I did not think the splines could be messed up, but I now think I should check them out. I just put a new rear tire on and when I did this I checked out the splines. They looked great and I lubed them up after pulling the clip and removing the splines from the wheel. It looks like I have some things to take apart this weekend.

[Brad Baerwald]

Yeah , MOB!  and if he was using  brakes and clutch to regulate his speed (from the stuck throttle) I can imagine some unusual high stresses of hard on and off,,, that might shear off the soft splines at the hub.  that makes good sense. especially if the throttle was stuck wide open and he was trying to keep from over revving the engine yet keep it running.  The one that still doesn't make sense to me is about the engine dying when he let out the clutch (even though the the bike wont move??)

[RFH87_Connie]

When I let out the clutch the bike does not move and the engine dies. It concerns me that I can put it in gear and the bike doesn't move.

The "engine dies" part gets me to thinking it's not the hub but perhaps the trans or a switch.  It sounds like you are saying only the engine is spinning and when applied to a locked up trans (with a properly functioning clutch) the engine stalls.  How do you know you are actually putting it in gear?  If you can get it in what you think is neutral, can you let out the clutch and it stays running?  What about the neutral safety switch failing?

[Brad Baerwald]

Thank you,RFH87_connie!  That's exactly what I was tying to say (but in my typlical convoluted way) in my second post here (at the very end of it)   I decided then to leave out what I was think on that post (which MOB stated) that a jammed gearbox would probably lock the  rear wheel up (and not be shift-able)  but RFH.. made the point that "how do you know it's shifting AT ALL"?

I was wondering if the gearbox could jam in such a way that the clutch being let out stops the motor BUT at the same time disconnects the shaft and would  allow free wheeling at the wheel?? (there would be no "clunking" because there would be no shifting (even though the shifting lever moves?)

I still maintain, that we need much better and detailed symptom description.  I went out to my bike and tested the nuetral switch and listened to the way it sounded when it killed the engine... It's a very sudden stop!  and sounds NOTHING like, holding the rear break in gear and letting out the clutch (simulating a jammed gearbox)... it's this kinda difference and detail I'm talking about.  matter of fact I haven't heard you metion ever again that the engine dying symptom as anything but a "once off" situation??

I figure folks aren't too keen on long posts... but personally don't mind as long as it serves a purpose.

 This site, and it's people, are a symbol of what's still good in life... when guys can help each other out, from great distances, nearly instantaneously, all concerning their favorite pastime! 

I will be forever grateful

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

Here is an update. When I let the clutch out in neutral the bike does not die. When I click it into first gear with the clutch in the back tire starts to move slowly. When I let the clutch out it still dies. I took the rear wheel off to check the splines and they are still good. They are a bit worn, but no more worn than they were a week ago when I had the wheel off. There is still plenty of meat to engage the drive splines. Now to take apart the clutch and have a look. Also the clutch fluid is clean with nothing obstructing the return passageway.

[gPink]

kickstand safety switch ?

[Brad Baerwald]

OK good info!

can you explain the "way" it dies?  is it sudden and regaurdless of throttle manipulation?  OR does it act like the engine is "Pulling" (even though you see little to no wheel movement??

because I've been asking about the neutral switch over and over here

[Dan in Grand Rapids]

OK good info!

can you explain the "way" it dies?  is it sudden and regaurdless of throttle manipulation?  OR does it act like the engine is "Pulling" (even though you see little to no wheel movement??

because I've been asking about the neutral switch over and over here

When it dies it is just sudden, almost like a switch.

I am not sure what all is the problem, but I took the clutch apart and it is toast. There are charred remains of clutch friction plates all over. Two of the friction plates actually cracked into several pieces (one of them is 9 pieces). The star springs appear unbroken, but I they are a bit loose. I replaced these a few years ago and cannot remember if they are supposed to move a bit. I can move them a few millimeters between the clutch basket and the nut. Are they supposed to be snug on the nut?

I am guessing the much of my problem is no clutch friction plates with broken plates.

Another strange thing is that when I unscrewed the clutch springs the studs came with the spring and bolt. I can't get a wrench in there to separate them, so I am not sure how to separate them. I will replace the springs with the clutch, so I have to get these apart.

[Brad Baerwald]

OK Dan  well at least you know the clucth is fried  and thank you for the info on the "way it dies'" if it's "sudden" like you say it is... (and reguardless of how you rev the motor to "try to keep it running...) that HAS to be the "neutal switch circuit"  !!   

I don't know where that swicth actually resides in the tranny but (and I'm COMPLETLY guessing here) it sounds like something had to break bad enough to damage that switch!! and I'm also thinking that that gearbox is jammed !  but I'm thinking you are a VERY VERY lucky man  because logic (to me ) is that that "jam" should have locked your rear wheel up!! (while you were infront of the Semi!!!!)  but instead it locked it up in a way that the clutch burned up (trying to send power thru the tranny but again allowed your rear wheel to spin freely

I hope I'm wrong about the gear box   I hope its still fine and all you did was burn up the clutch  and that the neutral switch is a separate issue.   but I am almost completely certain that the neutral switch circiult is whats killing the engine... I can ONLY imagine "why?"