Author Topic: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner  (Read 16783 times)

Offline 3redzxs

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Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« on: June 26, 2014, 04:33:54 PM »
I'm ready to install an ape mcct. Since it was designed for the zx14 it is slotted for an O-ring. Should I get a zx O-ring, or can I use the zg gasket? Both? Thanks

Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 05:06:38 PM »
Would love to hear about how this goes. Pics even. I'm so tired of my bike sounding like a John Deer.

Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 05:27:47 PM »
I used the original gasket. All my bikes have been converted to Ape's.
Nice and quiet now when I start the bike up.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 05:52:16 PM »
I changed mine a long time ago and documented it on this forum. The the forum lost all the data back in 2011. Then I documented it again, here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=14243.msg174886#msg174886    Then Photobucket had some kind of minor.... crash with my account and the photos are not 'aligned' so they do not show up in the thread.

Brian

Would love to hear about how this goes. Pics even. I'm so tired of my bike sounding like a John Deer.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline DeansZG

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 06:46:59 PM »
  changed mine over back in '01 or '02 IIRC w/ approx 25k miles on it. 
 only made a handful of MINOR adjustments during the remainder of the 150k I had the bike, to return the quietness.


oooops! nevermind....thought I was posting in the C10 maintenance section :doh:
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:19:00 AM by DeansZG »
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Offline 3redzxs

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 02:43:10 AM »
Thanks Mike, I'll be trying the install first bad weather.
I forgot to ask about blocking off the oil passage for the tensioner. The instructions I've found are general, but recommend doing that for hydraulic assisted cct.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 04:58:57 AM by 3redzxs »

Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 07:04:55 AM »
I changed mine a long time ago and documented it on this forum. The the forum lost all the data back in 2011. Then I documented it again, here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=14243.msg174886#msg174886    Then Photobucket had some kind of minor.... crash with my account and the photos are not 'aligned' so they do not show up in the thread.

Brian

I saw in that thread about standing the bike up to start. From day one I always stand the bike up before starting. Still sounds like a John Deer. I don't suppose you could resurrect the photos or send a pointer?

Offline maxtog

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 07:27:06 AM »
I saw in that thread about standing the bike up to start. From day one I always stand the bike up before starting. Still sounds like a John Deer.

Well, at least it should only be for 1 second, until the oil pressure comes.
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 08:35:15 AM »
Well, at least it should only be for 1 second, until the oil pressure comes.

5-10 seconds on mine.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 09:02:23 AM »
Those photos were gone (dog gone Photobucket!) but I put them back.... again. Take a look, the photos should be there for you but you might have to force re-load your browser (shift- F5  simultaneously usually works).

Brian

I saw in that thread about standing the bike up to start. From day one I always stand the bike up before starting. Still sounds like a John Deer. I don't suppose you could resurrect the photos or send a pointer?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2014, 10:00:49 AM »
Thank you Brian!

Yes, now I remember looking at these photos. A couple of questions:

What is the functional difference between the piston extension spring and the piston body extension spring?
I wonder if stronger springs would help?
Where and how is the anti backup clip installed? (wondering if mine is not working)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2014, 10:17:08 AM »
I do not know about the spring difference. But the force required to compress both springs is not great enough to prevent the CCT from backing up in the first place- that is the root cause of the cam chain start- up rattle.

As far as heavier springs, I think that is inherently a bad idea as it just puts more tension on the cam chain and accelerates wear of both the cam chain (by very little though) as well as the cam chain guides.

The CCT itself works fine but the design is poor in that the groove for the snap ring is far too wide. The snap ring IS the part that prevents the CCT from backing up beyond the clearance for the ring (which is too much IMO) and the length of the ratchet teeth.



That is what allows the plunger to back up enough to leave the cam chain loose enough in the first place.

A manual CCT eliminates all this because it takes the excess slop out of the system but applies absolutely no additional pressure.

Another alternative <may> be a ZX 11 CCT: these are purely mechanical, have a very fine ratchet, and have been used for years to replace other Kawasaki CCT designs that are problematic. And they are still and automatic CCT. I would not hesitate to use one on a C-14 but do not know if they actually fit or not.

Anyone tinkering around with this should be aware that there is an oil galley leading to the CCT on the C-14 and if it is not properly sealed, it will allow oil to drain from the galley and almost certainly lower the engine's oil pressure. So make sure any replacement CCT is a tight fit (easy boys!) in the cylinder block so that it will affect an oil path blockage. The APE manual CCT does this just fine by the way.

Brian

Thank you Brian!

Yes, now I remember looking at these photos. A couple of questions:

What is the functional difference between the piston extension spring and the piston body extension spring?
I wonder if stronger springs would help?
Where and how is the anti backup clip installed? (wondering if mine is not working)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2014, 10:28:14 AM »
Thanks again Brian! That groove does look entirely too wide. Makes me wonder if there is some way to put a C clip in there of just the right size to take up some of the slack for the snap ring. Sorry for all the questions but how hard is it to get in there to adjust the Ape tensioner? Don't want to create a maintenance headache, checking the valves is enough of a pain already.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2014, 10:55:15 AM »
Yeah a ring would take up the excess slack but it would be hard to get something like that in there I think.

The right / center fairing has to come off the bike to get to the CCT for installation and adjustment. Not too big of a deal but not effortless either. That said, I have not touched mine in dozens of thousands of miles and still cannot hear any valve train noise. ?? I think they will go a LONG time without adjustment but that of course is just my own opinion. I will say that they are easy to adjust, at least the way I do it: I loosen the lock nut and hold it in place with a wrench or my fingers, then use a socket and extension to tighten the bolt itself. This way I cannot put much torque on the bolt, actually less than I could put on a screwdriver handle. Then I back the screw off 1/2 turn and tighten the nut. I believe it would be enough to check and adjust the CCT while doing a valve lash check so really it would not be any appreciable amount of additional work as the fairings have to be off for all major maintenance on this bike anyway.

Brian

Thanks again Brian! That groove does look entirely too wide. Makes me wonder if there is some way to put a C clip in there of just the right size to take up some of the slack for the snap ring. Sorry for all the questions but how hard is it to get in there to adjust the Ape tensioner? Don't want to create a maintenance headache, checking the valves is enough of a pain already.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline maxtog

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2014, 01:51:35 PM »
5-10 seconds on mine.

That long?  I thought it would only take 1 or 2 seconds for the oil pressure to adjust the tensioner.  Might is just barely starting to make the noise now, and only does it for 1 or 2 seconds, I thought it would be the same across the board.  Not looking forward to it getting louder or being longer than that :(   

I understand why they would want to use an auto-tensioner.  But I don't understand why they would not have a design that would self "ratchet" clicks during the adjustment to permanently take up the slack.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 05:28:48 PM »
Oh, oh oh! Mr. Kotter! I know the answer to that.... Oh... OH, OH!

:-)

They do- the design includes a ratchet to prevent the CCT from backing up beyond a certain point in relationship to the current (under hydraulic tension) point. The problem is that the possible movement w/in one ratchet notch is too great due to the 'too wide' groove machined into the adjuster body. Put another way, there is nothing wrong with the design itself, only the specifications of the slot that the wire stop ring actually rides inside of.

Brian


<snip>

I understand why they would want to use an auto-tensioner.  But I don't understand why they would not have a design that would self "ratchet" clicks during the adjustment to permanently take up the slack.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline 3redzxs

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2014, 04:14:15 PM »
Thanks for the help. Just finished up and once the body work is off, it's simple. No more rattle! :)

Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2014, 07:18:19 AM »
Thanks for the help. Just finished up and once the body work is off, it's simple. No more rattle! :)

Nice! As soon as I have a garage again, I'm going to do this.

Offline Rhino

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2014, 10:58:42 AM »
Got my APE CCT yesterday, planned to install tomorrow but I just realized I didn't buy any gaskets and didn't see if the APE included any gasket or O-ring. Am I going to need any gaskets? Also, in some other thread, saw something about the oil passage and the possible need to block it or make sure it isn't blocked. But cannot find that thread. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2014, 01:19:02 PM »
I don't know what I would do if my bike didn't rattle when I started it up.  I think I would feel lost.  It's been doing that since day 1 (Aug 2007).
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