Kawasaki Concours Forum

The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: BrianK on January 15, 2019, 06:08:14 PM

Title: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 15, 2019, 06:08:14 PM
So I did a forum search and apparently there's a spring that weakens over time or was even weak from the get-go did I come up with the proper assessment from my search?
Anyhow the reason for this thread is I didn't really find any tried and true solution..... maybe I'm lacking in the search function literacy department but are there any surefire
solutions? I've spent a decent 40min trying with no luck and would hate to run into this in the middle of nowhere..   
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: gPink on January 15, 2019, 07:25:12 PM
You might reach out to long time member B D F. He has a very nice work around.   http://www.incontrolne.com/ (http://www.incontrolne.com/)

Or you can try the K-rock method.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: okrider on January 15, 2019, 08:15:01 PM
Are you talking about key being hard to turn in the gas cap?

Because the proposed solution is to disassemble it and clean the corrosion with sandpaper followed by spraying white lithium grease in the lock bits. However, in the same thread, you'll find that the problem returns sooner and is worse with every cleanup.

I did the disassemble&clean once and realized you can spray white lithium grease into the lock without disassembling so that's what I'm going to be doing from now on. My theory is that sandpaper removes the coating that prevents (not really well obviously) corrosion.

So if your gas cap lock isn't turning, try this: Open the gas cap, looking at it from the sides, you'll see that two bits retract when you rotate the key. Spray white lithium grease into the gaps around those bits and that should make the assembly work much more easily.

If this wasn't about the gas cap, sorry for the long unrelated post
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 15, 2019, 08:24:46 PM
There is no real solution.  Most of us consider it a design flaw and Kawasaki never redesigned it to fix the flaw- they only created a stronger spring to help avoid/prevent the issue.   Rarely would you ever get stranded because you will typically have plenty of notice the condition is starting.  Some people will never have the issue.  Some will have occasional signs.  Others will have big issues.  It depends on lots of factors- how the bike is stored and protected, weathering, how often the ignition is used, how often the key knob is removed, if anything was ever sprayed into the mechanism, etc. 

I am not terribly worried, I have only seen a touch of it twice in 8 years and thousands of uses- and both times it snapped out of it easily by pressing down hard and releasing it quickly by sliding my thumb off the knob.  If that started happening often, then the writing is on the wall.  I have had a zillion times more problems with the gas cap corrosion issue- and that almost left me stranded more than once.  Other people seem to pick up tire nails every year and get stranded :)

But if you are worried, follow gPink's link, above to BDF's emergency work-around cable.

UPDATE:  Turns out this is not what he is talking about at all :)
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: Rubber_Snake on January 15, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
So I did a forum search and apparently there's a spring that weakens over time or was even weak from the get-go did I come up with the proper assessment from my search?
Anyhow the reason for this thread is I didn't really find any tried and true solution..... maybe I'm lacking in the search function literacy department but are there any surefire
solutions? I've spent a decent 40min trying with no luck and would hate to run into this in the middle of nowhere..

There’s this guy, Tree, that had an interesting workaround...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 16, 2019, 04:00:00 AM
Where is the key 'stuck'?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: just gone on January 16, 2019, 07:25:42 AM
So I did a forum search and apparently there's a spring that weakens over time or was even weak from the get-go did I come up with the proper assessment from my search?
Anyhow the reason for this thread is I didn't really find any tried and true solution..... maybe I'm lacking in the search function literacy department but are there any surefire
solutions? I've spent a decent 40min trying with no luck and would hate to run into this in the middle of nowhere..   

Yeah, we kind of need to know exactly what you are referring to.  "Key Stuck" in the title doesn't really mean much unless that is exactly and literally what you mean, that is you can't remove the key (it {stove knob} only comes out in the FSS position) ...in which case I've never heard of it. If my key was stuck the only thing I could think of would be penetrating oil soak followed by brute force extraction. If on the other hand you mean there is no LCD response when you push down on the stove knob (and either you know the FOB battery is good and/or you are using the passive chip) then there are work arounds (including big rock) that can be found in a search and of course as mentioned the device that Brian (B.D.F.) sells.
Good Luck.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 07:41:07 AM
The ignition is stuck in the FSS position. The key itself will pull out no problem sorry I didn't explain that properly
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 07:58:39 AM
The worst part of this situation is I just changed out brake lines to ss, rebuilt calipers, added EBC rotors, new clutch, two new tires, EBC pads,  flushed and replaced coolant, new air filter, and changed oil.  I was attempting to start so I could burp the coolant.  Needless to say I was pretty eager to test out all new bits...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MrPepsi on January 16, 2019, 10:29:31 AM
K-Rock!
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 16, 2019, 03:49:09 PM
The ignition is stuck in the FSS position. The key itself will pull out no problem sorry I didn't explain that properly

OK, wow, I totally misunderstood what you were saying, then.   So you are saying if you press down on the key, it does wake up the bike, but you can't turn the key to the start position?  Is the steering lock also engaged right now, with the handlebars turned to one extreme?

What year bike and how many miles would also be useful...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 04:55:28 PM
OK, wow, I totally misunderstood what you were saying, then.   So you are saying if you press down on the key, it does wake up the bike, but you can't turn the key to the start position?  Is the steering lock also engaged right now, with the handlebars turned to one extreme?

What year bike and how many miles would also be useful...

the locks never changed,
and with exception to the erroneous nomenclature, the book shows the positions....
Lock... full ccw
Off... turn CW
PRESS Down ... actuate, then turn CW to ON....

and fully CW finally to the FSS position, where the key may be removed.

truthfully, having only removed my key twice since 2007... I can't recall if I actually had to "press down" to actuate, before turning it back CCW thru "ON" and to "OFF", but I do know I didn't need to "press down" to turn it to "LOCK"...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 05:21:38 PM
owners manual splains the progressions...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: lather on January 16, 2019, 05:23:14 PM
of all the kipass failure threads I  have read since 2007 I can't recall one being stuck in FSS
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 05:34:33 PM
well.... we are are open to learn new stuff....
next question is.... and I am just asking... as real bikers don't read owners manuals....even if we have them... (giving the o/p a break, as he may have bought used, without one...)
Was the battery removed during the time it was in FSS... and if so, were all the connections, and grounding points, along with the battery terminals themselves, all Abrasively cleaned (actually scrubbed) and reattached prior to the key movement attempts...?  Just asking, even tho I know it "shouldn't matter" as the bike's electronics are "turned off" in the FSS position... but...
asking just the same.

next step is to mallet whack the key, a couple times, after spritzing WD40 in the slot, and reinserting it, then turning it CCW from FSS thru "on to OFF" and what transpires...whack-a-mole...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 05:37:52 PM
2009 13k miles and yes stuck in FSS position. The only thing that happened when I first tried to turn key was the red blinking light came on so if you consider that waking up then yes bike woke up. Key comes right out but will not turn one iota
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 05:42:33 PM
While I was doing the work the battery was never disconnected and remained on my Motobatt trickle charger
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 05:44:33 PM
I found a couple used ignition switch assemblies but none come with their fob is it easy for me to program my fobs to a new switch?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 05:49:36 PM
I found a couple used ignition switch assemblies but none come with their fob is it easy for me to program my fobs to a new switch?

before deciding on buying stuff... slow down, and work thru this... OK???????

when was the last time you started the bike, immediately prior to this occurrence.?
and.... what were you working on during this time?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 05:50:07 PM
Also my switch has gotten stuck before like 2 or 3 times but each time it was only for a minute or so of jiggling it so I thought maybe it was just a user error type of thing not realizing this is an issue so I guess you could say my bike has a history of this wish I knew I would of addressed this already
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 05:52:33 PM
Also my switch has gotten stuck before like 2 or 3 times but each time it was only for a minute or so of jiggling it so I thought maybe it was just a user error type of thing not realizing this is an issue so I guess you could say my bike has a history of this wish I knew I would of addressed this already
Road the bike about a month ago. Changed tires, clutch, brakes, rotors, brake lines, clutch line, coolant, oil, air filter, oil filter and rebuilt calipers
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 05:54:36 PM
Also my switch has gotten stuck before like 2 or 3 times but each time it was only for a minute or so of jiggling it so I thought maybe it was just a user error type of thing not realizing this is an issue so I guess you could say my bike has a history of this wish I knew I would of addressed this already

just answer the questions, please....
and having the switch stick a couple times helps, but is not the total picture here... what was being worked on....?
and when did it start last... immediately prior to this.????
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 05:57:20 PM
Road the bike about a month ago. Changed tires, clutch, brakes, rotors, brake lines, clutch line, coolant, oil, air filter, oil filter and rebuilt calipers
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 06:00:51 PM
Road the bike about a month ago. Changed tires, clutch, brakes, rotors, brake lines, clutch line, coolant, oil, air filter, oil filter and rebuilt calipers


OK, it's been on the charger a month... remove the charger, remove the battery, abrasively clean every connection point, including the connection on the frame, and all terminal connectors on cables, and the battery terminals... make them shiney, and use sandpaper... while the battery is out, squirt some WD40 in the key lock, insert the key and rap it a couple times with a rubber mallet, don't bash it, just rap it a couple times, then attempt to turn it back CCW while jiggling it... re-install the cables, and repeat this...
both pressing down on the key, and pulling up lightly as you attempt to turn it....
I'll be back...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 06:04:21 PM

OK, it's been on the charger a month... remove the charger, remove the battery, abrasively clean every connection point, including the connection on the frame, and all terminal connectors on cables, and the battery terminals... make them shiney, and use sandpaper... while the battery is out, squirt some WD40 in the key lock, insert the key and rap it a couple times with a rubber mallet, don't bash it, just rap it a couple times, then attempt to turn it back CCW while jiggling it... re-install the cables, and repeat this...
both pressing down on the key, and pulling up lightly as you attempt to turn it....
I'll be back...
Yes sir
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 16, 2019, 06:31:57 PM
when you do the WD40 spray thing, also focus on the area of the ring/recess that the "knob" fits into on the housing when the key is removed, over by the 9 0'clock position, of the plate below when the key is removed... this is the location for the "activation" microswitch, and should be somewhat douched liberally with the spray, so it drains down and release the microswitch inner plunger...
I say this because I think it may be stuck, in a partially depressed and actuated position, as the lights and power should not really come on when you attempt to switch from RSS to On...
do that and again rap on the inserted key, this is the "K-Rock" thing that is eluded to, also pressing down on the key, and slipping your finger off, letting it "bounce" upwards also does a similar "jarring" of the actuator.

I'll be back after I finish my dinner...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 06:56:35 PM
Did everything as instructed and the only difference being, which I think is a positive is I held my fob up to switch and now the bike truly wakes up when I push down.  The dash lights and the stove knob insignia mocks me but still zero movement. I guess my fob battery is dead......
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 07:51:10 PM
Ok well both my thumbs and pointer fingers are rubbed raw from hours of trying to turn that stupid stove knob I have to pack it in for the night it's almost 10pm here.  Thanks for all the help and unfortunately the knob never gave any indication that it was going to turn at all.  Wd40 and a rubber mallet didn't help. I didn't overdo anything so I'm confident I didn't add to the issue and my battery connections are a lot cleaner and shinier than they were before so hey at least that's a win.  Anyone has any other ideas please please please chime in I'll be back at this madness tomorrow evening :thumbdown
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 16, 2019, 08:02:43 PM
2009 13k miles and yes stuck in FSS position. The only thing that happened when I first tried to turn key was the red blinking light came on so if you consider that waking up then yes bike woke up. Key comes right out but will not turn one iota

You are not really answering my question. for sure  If the bike knob is in either lock or fss, when you press down on the knob when the active fob is in range, the bike should "wake up" for a few seconds, you should see the display turn on.  Is that happening?  Or does nothing happen when you press the knob down?

If nothing happens, then you most likely either have the classic spring issue with the switch being stuck OR the ignition/computer is not getting adequate power OR the active fob is out of range or dead.   You can't turn the key if the bike doesn't wake first (either from fss or off/lock).

Damn it, I read ahead and see...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 08:05:57 PM
Yes bike wakes up,  it wasn't at first then when it did I thought for millisecond yay fixed but unfortunately no such luck so I am miffed right about now...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 16, 2019, 08:11:41 PM
Did everything as instructed and the only difference being, which I think is a positive is I held my fob up to switch and now the bike truly wakes up when I push down.  The dash lights and the stove knob insignia mocks me

Ah, so your active fob battery is probably dead.  So replace that first

Quote
but still zero movement. I guess my fob battery is dead......

You used your active fob as a passive one by holding it directly on the "special spot", and the bike wakes, so that means the switch is NOT stuck (or at least it isn't anymore).  At that point, you should be able to turn the key.  If not, you had/have more than one problem at the same time.

Now I am stumped.  There should be a solenoid that activates when the bike wakes up, that is what allows the key to turn.  Perhaps that is also not activating- which could be physical or electrical.  If there is enough power for the computer to wake and turn the dash on, it should be enough power to also trigger the solenoid.  When the bike wakes from pushing the knob down, does it stay on for several seconds, or die almost immediately after waking?

And this is a stupid question, but I don't think the key will turn when it is depressed- you aren't trying to turn it while it is pushed down, are you?  Press, wake, release, turn.  Sorry, have to ask, not meant to be insulting.  The stranger the problem, the stranger the questions :)
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 16, 2019, 08:14:42 PM
By the way, since you have a 2009, you don't have the stronger switch spring, unless you had the ignition switch worked on at some point after the new part came out (and the dealer knew about it).  So your model is going to be more prone to the switch problem than later models, especially due to age.  But you probably already knew that.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 16, 2019, 09:34:44 PM
It stays on for several seconds and when it first comes on I can here a click sound which is probably the solenoid. Everything seems to be functioning as should be except it actually turning. All the way up 1/2 way down doesn't matter it won't move......
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 17, 2019, 05:35:15 AM
I am out of ideas now.  To me, it sounds like a mechanical failure related to the solenoid.  It might be activating, but not traveling fully, or some linkage being broken/stuck.  Just for giggles, did you try the spare non-knob metal key from inside the fob yet?  I can't imagine that would make any difference.  I am not a fan of WD40 or dousing, since it can cause problems later, and in this case, might not even be able to make it to the appropriate area.  It might require ignition disassembly :(

The only times I have ever had a problem turning the key (when the bike wakes) is moving from lock to off because the steering lock engage was putting too much pressure on the mechanism and it requires moving the steering a bit (pretty common in cars, too).  But that should not be an issue in the off, on, or fss positions.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 17, 2019, 05:39:36 AM
Sounds to me like the key is bent.  It happens, the key is made out of chocolate.  This especially happens if you take the key out and use it for it's intended purposes such as the gas hole, cases, and seat removal.  One of the reasons I NEVER EVER take it out of the ignition key hole. 
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: B.D.F. on January 17, 2019, 06:15:01 AM
C'mon Jim, you do not take the key out of the bike because you do not own it anymore.  ;D

As to the bent key, I do not believe that could bind up the lock cylinder to prevent it from turning; removing the key, sure but the OP cannot turn the key.

We have been in touch via e-mail and this one is a head- scratcher. It is possible that the pin on the end of the solenoid is broken or stuck but I really doubt that. The only thing left is that the key cylinder itself is frozen inside the cylinder housing. I have never seen that but it is always possible for anything that moves mechanically to be frozen / corroded / physically damaged so it fails to turn. ??

Brian

Sounds to me like the key is bent.  It happens, the key is made out of chocolate.  This especially happens if you take the key out and use it for it's intended purposes such as the gas hole, cases, and seat removal.  One of the reasons I NEVER EVER take it out of the ignition key hole.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 17, 2019, 07:23:32 AM
I can assure you the issue is NOT a bent key.  The stove knob rarely leaves its perch and is in great condition
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 17, 2019, 07:39:46 AM
I am out of ideas now.  To me, it sounds like a mechanical failure related to the solenoid.  It might be activating, but not traveling fully, or some linkage being broken/stuck.  Just for giggles, did you try the spare non-knob metal key from inside the fob yet?  I can't imagine that would make any difference.  I am not a fan of WD40 or dousing, since it can cause problems later, and in this case, might not even be able to make it to the appropriate area.  It might require ignition disassembly :(

The only times I have ever had a problem turning the key (when the bike wakes) is moving from lock to off because the steering lock engage was putting too much pressure on the mechanism and it requires moving the steering a bit (pretty common in cars, too).  But that should not be an issue in the off, on, or fss positions.
Yes sir tried the spare ignition key with same result
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: PH14 on January 17, 2019, 07:50:56 AM
Yes bike wakes up,  it wasn't at first then when it did I thought for millisecond yay fixed but unfortunately no such luck so I am miffed right about now...

But what does the display say?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 17, 2019, 08:57:21 AM
But what does the display say?
Same thing it has always displayed. A rendering of the stove knob with two arrows wrapping around it,  one pointing clockwise the other ccw
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: B.D.F. on January 17, 2019, 09:14:05 AM
This is  a new problem, at least to me. It will be interesting to see what is causing that problem.

Brian

Same thing it has always displayed. A rendering of the stove knob with two arrows wrapping around it,  one pointing clockwise the other ccw
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 17, 2019, 03:42:44 PM
This is  a new problem, at least to me. It will be interesting to see what is causing that problem.

I have never seen/heard of this happening before either.  I still suspect a physical problem with the solenoid linkage or perhaps the cylinder is damaged and will just not turn and the ignition will need to be disassembled.  In such a case, I would strongly recommend a competent dealer.

Since we have not seen this before, it can be surmised this is a very rare thing.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 17, 2019, 04:25:05 PM
Got home 1/2 hr ago been at it since.  No change.  Tonight I will swing a little harder, douse a little heavier then disassemble this weekend if no change.  There will be no dealership involvement it will be fixed in my garage by me
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 17, 2019, 06:31:38 PM
frankly Max, I'm just gonna drop this one, and let you figure it n out...

Not sure why you are having to be nasty... (at least it appears to me to be that way, as I am guessing most people would.).

Quote
I'm strictly basing this on all the responses prior, and when you had the response of the "lock" position, vs the "FSS"Position... I actually double face palmed myself..

My line of questioning was wondering if the steering lock persisted, somehow, even though it was in the fss position, thinking maybe it could bind the key from turning (as can sometimes happen when it is actually in the lock position).  I am not sure if that is possible, it was just wild speculation.

Quote
great find relating to the solenoid... which I noted prior as the switch issue...
 :thumbs: :thumbs: :nuts: :nuts: :popcorn: :popcorn: in response #25...duh.

The microswitch and solenoid are two different things of which one or the other or both can fail.

Is this some type of competition or game?  I can assure you, it wasn't/isn't for me.  I thought we were trying to solve a problem for someone...

Quote
I'm gonna have a nice cup of tea, and resign from "further " attempts...[...]thanx Max.  you handle this one, I'm out.

 ::)  Yeesh.  I see no reason to punish BrianK (and insulting me) because you are apparently assigning hostility or malice to something I said.  I can assure you, no such thing was intended.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 17, 2019, 06:49:19 PM
Got home 1/2 hr ago been at it since.  No change.  Tonight I will swing a little harder, douse a little heavier then disassemble this weekend if no change.  There will be no dealership involvement it will be fixed in my garage by me

:)  You are a braver soul than I, for sure!  Having my gas cap assembly fall apart into a pile of little pieces that are undocumented in the factory manual was traumatic enough to make me very "lock shy."  I just tried to find a diagram of the ignition switch assembly, no luck.  Yuck.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 17, 2019, 06:54:28 PM
frankly Max, I'm just gonna drop this one, and let you figure it n out...
have a day.

I'm strictly basing this on all the responses prior, and when you had the response of the "lock" position, vs the "FSS"Position... I actually double face palmed myself..

sorry o/p, Max will help you./

great find relating to the solenoid... which I noted prior as the switch issue...
 :thumbs: :thumbs: :nuts: :nuts: :popcorn: :popcorn: in response #25...


duh.


I'm gonna have a nice cup of tea, and resign from "further " attempts...
'
buy a new ignition switch, and stove knob, and have it programmed to your bike.


 :battle: :grouphug: :nuts: :deadhorse:
you handle this one, I'm out.

(https://quoteshunter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/hippies-peace-quote-john-lennon.jpg)

Well thanks for the half hearted effort and for momentarily putting up with the silly diatribe!! No sarcasm intended I do appreciate any help
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 18, 2019, 08:16:30 AM
To quote one of my favorite people 'Well, my, my, my.'  Lieutenant Kenda.


Rich, lighten up please.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: B.D.F. on January 18, 2019, 09:02:19 AM
OFFTOPIC, or at least not a cranky post :-)

I have been thinking about this a little bit and would suggest opening up the covers around the ignition switch assembly and taking a look at the shot- pin that locks the ignition via the solenoid. That assembly can be seen / modified without taking the entire ass'y apart and would be an easier first step in diagnosis I believe. Plus, you will have to take all of that same stuff apart to actually remove the ign. ass'y anyway so no extra labor. It is possible that the shot pin broke or froze, or that there is some piece of debris in the shot- pin hole that is not allowing the cylinder to rotate.

There is a very good video on YouTube about how to access that solenoid. What the author is documenting is incorrect, that it is actually a solenoid failure that causes the dreaded KiPass stuck activation switch but just ignore the words and use the video for instruction on how to get at it and they you can visually verify whether it is working or now.

Now back to your regularly scheduled slug- fest. :-)

Brian

P.S. To BrianK: Rich is really harmless, just grouchy like that alien in Men In Black. And you are not really the target- there IS NO target, Rich is just being cranky and your thread was available. He is not a bad guy in person, or on- line about 2/3 of the time..... just take him with a shaker full of grains of salt.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 18, 2019, 11:55:11 AM
He's being cranky on another board as well...


Could it be debris in the mechanism that's locked it in place?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 18, 2019, 01:07:56 PM
OFFTOPIC, or at least not a cranky post :-)

I have been thinking about this a little bit and would suggest opening up the covers around the ignition switch assembly and taking a look at the shot- pin that locks the ignition via the solenoid. That assembly can be seen / modified without taking the entire ass'y apart and would be an easier first step in diagnosis I believe. Plus, you will have to take all of that same stuff apart to actually remove the ign. ass'y anyway so no extra labor. It is possible that the shot pin broke or froze, or that there is some piece of debris in the shot- pin hole that is not allowing the cylinder to rotate.

There is a very good video on YouTube about how to access that solenoid. What the author is documenting is incorrect, that it is actually a solenoid failure that causes the dreaded KiPass stuck activation switch but just ignore the words and use the video for instruction on how to get at it and they you can visually verify whether it is working or now.

Now back to your regularly scheduled slug- fest. :-)

Brian

P.S. To BrianK: Rich is really harmless, just grouchy like that alien in Men In Black. And you are not really the target- there IS NO target, Rich is just being cranky and your thread was available. He is not a bad guy in person, or on- line about 2/3 of the time..... just take him with a shaker full of grains of salt.  ;) ;D

Brian, 
I did watch that video last night and agree that he is incorrect and I took the switch assembly/upper triple clamp off last night so as soon as I get home I'll take off the solenoid cover and scavenge around for debris. I'll update this thread shortly after...
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 18, 2019, 01:53:51 PM
Sorry guys, was just having a bad day, didn't mean to be so grouchy.
 had just returned from picking up a tin of ashes from the vet's office.

carry on, I think BDF's idea right now is the best to follow up on.
Title: FIXERATED!!!!!
Post by: BrianK on January 18, 2019, 05:17:46 PM
SOOOO I decided to take apart. The more I took apart the more i realized I am screwed. No way can I get this thing back together :'(
After every step I tried and still no worky. I had it down to basically bare bones nothing and it still wouldn't work :battle:
Then a little something something caught my eye. There's a copper clasp like thingy way down the bottom and i spotted an unauthorized user hanging out incognito like tring to avoid me :o

nabbed that little f$%^$er and my key turned!!! Every step of reassembly checked again to make sure key worked.....
Put it all back together and NOTHING THE F-ing   key wouldn't turn again UGH! But then I realized I reassembled in lock position must push and turn and bingo!!!!! Motor purring!!!!

Sadly we did lose a member of our party on reassembly. A moment of silence please for the steering lock position assembly....there is no way in hell I could get that thing back in it's like a chinese water torture jedi mind puzzle that i don't have the patience and know how to do. If you look at my pics you'll see what i am speaking of and you'll think wow that's easy to do so I invite you and your family over to have at it!!
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 18, 2019, 05:24:17 PM
OOH look I spotted the foreigner in my blurry pic look I circled the offender in red.....
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: gPink on January 18, 2019, 05:35:36 PM
Were you able to determine what the offending foreign object is or where it's from?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 18, 2019, 06:22:37 PM
A copper clasp on the bottom that holds together the tumbler
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: VirginiaJim on January 18, 2019, 07:19:34 PM
Wow!  Just wow!  Glad you figured it out.  What year bike?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 18, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
A copper clasp on the bottom that holds together the tumbler

HA!
One little tiny thing.  That's all it takes!  (I assume you put the clasp back on the tumbler to keep it together?  Are you lucky that the tumbler didn't fall apart in a zillion springs and nibs?)

Congrats and thanks for the info/pics.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 18, 2019, 09:38:20 PM
Wow!  Just wow!  Glad you figured it out.  What year bike?
2009
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 18, 2019, 09:46:06 PM
HA!
One little tiny thing.  That's all it takes!  (I assume you put the clasp back on the tumbler to keep it together?  Are you lucky that the tumbler didn't fall apart in a zillion springs and nibs?)

Congrats and thanks for the info/pics.
I took a really small flat head screwdriver and stuck it between clasp and tumbler wall and pushed the clasp towards the center of assembly and didn't really get any movement out of it probably accomplishing nothing....also you would be surprised, or at least I was, how few parts make up the tumbler it is such super simple set-up.
Title: Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
Post by: B.D.F. on January 19, 2019, 09:25:35 AM
Glad to hear that you got it running, fixed the problem and best of all, identified the problem. Nothing worse IMO that tinkering with something, having a problem 'go away' and having no idea what, if anything at all, you did to 'fix' it. That is a sure recipe for the original problem to come back and bite you on the butt.....

Brian

SOOOO I decided to take apart. The more I took apart the more i realized I am screwed. No way can I get this thing back together :'(
After every step I tried and still no worky. I had it down to basically bare bones nothing and it still wouldn't work :battle:
Then a little something something caught my eye. There's a copper clasp like thingy way down the bottom and i spotted an unauthorized user hanging out incognito like tring to avoid me :o

nabbed that little f$%^$er and my key turned!!! Every step of reassembly checked again to make sure key worked.....
Put it all back together and NOTHING THE F-ing   key wouldn't turn again UGH! But then I realized I reassembled in lock position must push and turn and bingo!!!!! Motor purring!!!!

<snip>

Title: Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
Post by: BrianK on January 19, 2019, 10:28:27 AM
Glad to hear that you got it running, fixed the problem and best of all, identified the problem. Nothing worse IMO that tinkering with something, having a problem 'go away' and having no idea what, if anything at all, you did to 'fix' it. That is a sure recipe for the original problem to come back and bite you on the butt.....

Brian
Thanks again for all the help Brian!
Title: Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
Post by: maxtog on January 19, 2019, 11:25:09 AM
Nothing worse IMO that tinkering with something, having a problem 'go away' and having no idea what, if anything at all, you did to 'fix' it.

Oh yes there is worse- having an annoying intermittent problem which you spend an eternity trying to fix, doing everything you can, thinking you found it, putting it all back together, then it works fine FOR A WHILE and then starts again; rinse and repeat.  That is much worse :)   (And I seem to get stuck with such problems all the time on various things (not on this bike, but just things in life, well except for the damn gas cap corrosion).

But I bet he will be OK now.  I will it to be so! (That mostly only works when I do it for OTHER people).
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 19, 2019, 01:27:21 PM
The key is not working again. Same thing.  On my way to get gas, a lighter and sledgehammer  >:(
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: B.D.F. on January 19, 2019, 02:22:44 PM
That piece of brass you showed before looked like one of the 'teeth' (do not know the right term) from inside the key cylinder. Is it possible that they are falling out / breaking off and jamming up the works? What I mean by 'teeth' is the little brass stampings that slide when you insert the key (Easy Boys!) to retract them and allow the cylinder to turn. If the retaining mechanism has broken or failed, you may continue to spit those things out. ?? Just a random thought.

Brian

The key is not working again. Same thing.  On my way to get gas, a lighter and sledgehammer  >:(
Title: Re: FIXERATED!!!!!
Post by: B.D.F. on January 19, 2019, 02:24:01 PM
Yeah but that is exactly what taking something apart, putting it back together and finding it now working will become- a gremlin that you have NOT fixed. You have expanded on exactly my point. Anything that just disappears for no known reason will almost always come back to haunt the owner.

Brian

Oh yes there is worse- having an annoying intermittent problem which you spend an eternity trying to fix, doing everything you can, thinking you found it, putting it all back together, then it works fine FOR A WHILE and then starts again; rinse and repeat.  That is much worse :)   (And I seem to get stuck with such problems all the time on various things (not on this bike, but just things in life, well except for the damn gas cap corrosion).

But I bet he will be OK now.  I will it to be so! (That mostly only works when I do it for OTHER people).
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 19, 2019, 04:16:12 PM
The key is not working again. Same thing.  On my way to get gas, a lighter and sledgehammer  >:(

Ug!  Well, at least you now have the experience on how the stuff comes apart and goes together.  You have to be a lot closer to a solution than before.  I think I lost my bet in my previous reply :(
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 19, 2019, 04:23:12 PM
That piece of brass you showed before looked like one of the 'teeth' (do not know the right term) from inside the key cylinder. Is it possible that they are falling out / breaking off and jamming up the works? What I mean by 'teeth' is the little brass stampings that slide when you insert the key (Easy Boys!) to retract them and allow the cylinder to turn.

Not a bad thought, although having been inside lock cylinders before, I am not sure how any of those pins (that is the word you were looking for ;) )  could escape.   I do know that if one plans to take a cylinder apart, there are lots of good videos about that- generally they all work the same.

Pins can wear down, and springs can fatigue, and contaminates can gunk them from moving properly or in the right position, so there are other possibilities to explore.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 19, 2019, 04:26:40 PM
the lockset, as it is, is similar to most typical style automotive locks, the "blade/tooth" is utilized as it is more resistant to being "seized" up by corrosion, by nature of the flat plates in lieu of cylindrical "pins"
Being a 2 edged key, brings into place a tie between the sides of the notched key, and all of this is relying on springs, on both edges, to return the "teeth" to a home position. Maybe one of those springs has been displaced, and no longer applies pressure on the tooth, which effectively makes it "hang" out, and twist out of the housing, which I assume you will find when you take it apart, and find that slightly chewed up brass part, again, sitting in the lower bowels of the lock recess.

Now that you found what you found, I'd actually drill the security screws out of the switchlock, take it to a "competent/reliable, and proven" locksmith, and have him disasemble and re-assemble it, replacing any worn springs that tension the teeth. Make sure he has a good key also.
I've disassembled locks like this in the past, and color coded each "tooth" before removing them, so I could insure they actually lined back up correctly with the key (yeah, I goofed a couple times...btdt) but did end up with a functioning lock eventually.. (I had to but junkyard locks, and remove the parts, to get the correct springs I needed)
The tumblers are usually held together with a "lock"strip metal slide in piece, on the side of the tumbler assembly, and can be pulled/pried out to rebuild the set.

I think you did well to find the initial cause, now enlist someone that may be able to really fix it, in a matter of minutes for you, with the assembly in hand..

Locksmiths are hard to find anymore, I have 2 local ones, that have passed the business' down from grandfather, to son, and now grandson... they can do in 5 minutes what it would take me an hour, and make it work.


best of luck.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: Locksmith on January 20, 2019, 05:00:46 AM
Those flat metal plates that the key goes through are called "wafers". The notches in the key are called "cuts". The distance between the cuts are called "spaces" and the depth of the cut is called "depths" (ok, that one was easy).

The wafers are specific to each brand of lock, so your local locksmith probably won’t have them, but if he is skilled, he can modify existing ones to fit. The wafer springs are in the same boat.

Unfortunately there are no standards outside of each manufacturer (Honda won’t fit Kawasaki for example).

Btw, Honda automotive locks are the crappiest of them all, but I don’t do automotive any more so that may have changed.

I’ve been a locksmith for 37 years and a Kawasaki rider for even longer.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 20, 2019, 12:24:08 PM
So yeah I'm standing in front of my bike,  it's running,  I took apart switch again and prodded it didn't really find anything but it started working again. I put it back together and plugged it in but didn't remount to triple clamp. I am going to bring it to a locksmith and see if they can rebuild it properly. If not I'll swap it out, at least I was able to get it running so I can finish my work and button up all the Tupperware. Now that I drilled out and replaced the security screws it's easy to remove and replace the switch assembly.....to be continued.....
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 24, 2019, 09:44:33 AM
Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: Rubber_Snake on January 24, 2019, 10:29:45 AM
Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....
Sounds like he was able to repair it.  If so, that’s great news.  Glad to hear it!  What did it end up costing you?
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: B.D.F. on January 24, 2019, 10:34:47 AM
That is what I thought the 'brass piece of debris' looked like in your first disassembly. This is good news in that you now know what caused it and can fix it with certainty; this one should not come back to bite you in the butt.

Brian

Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: maxtog on January 24, 2019, 03:57:05 PM
Update...... just got a call from the locksmith he said that I had a broken wafer inside the lock???? Not sure what that is or how/why it would break but I guess I'll get an explanation when I pick it up....

Great news!  How would it break?  Good question.... I don't have any good ideas on that.  I would imagine it might have been slightly sticking and perhaps you applied too much force trying to turn it and it snapped or something?  Perhaps a slight bit of hard foriegn matter got in the there and contributed?  I would ask the locksmith how that typically happens...  As far as I know, that is a first on this forum.

That is what I thought the 'brass piece of debris' looked like in your first disassembly. This is good news in that you now know what caused it and can fix it with certainty; this one should not come back to bite you in the butt.

Indeed.  It sounds pretty definitive now, except what would could cause the break in the first place.  Sometimes we don't get all the answers we want.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: B.D.F. on January 24, 2019, 04:31:21 PM
It might have been defective right from manufacture, they are punched to form a slot in the middle and that makes them pretty weak in the first place. Maybe someone did not get a key in all the way (Easy Boys!) and forced the switch to rotate with one plate not retracted all the way. ??

But because one was broken, it makes them all suspect IMO along with the cylinder and housing. I would assume the locksmith checked the entire locking ass'y for any other damage and fixed any he found while he was there.

The locksmith that commented before in this thread will hopefully chime in and let us know if this kind of thing does happen occasionally and perhaps why.

Brian

Great news!  How would it break?  Good question.... I don't have any good ideas on that.  I would imagine it might have been slightly sticking and perhaps you applied too much force trying to turn it and it snapped or something?  Perhaps a slight bit of hard foriegn matter got in the there and contributed?  I would ask the locksmith how that typically happens...  As far as I know, that is a first on this forum.

Indeed.  It sounds pretty definitive now, except what would could cause the break in the first place.  Sometimes we don't get all the answers we want.
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 24, 2019, 05:40:05 PM
I didn't pay,  it wasn't ready.  He took it apart again because the key would only come out when it was turned all the way to the right, it was stuck in the switch in the lock position  ;D
I let him know he disassembled it a 2nd time for nothing lol.  I'll ask him tomorrow when I pick it up what might of caused this to happen and I'm sure his reply will be user error..... I'll update tomorrow....
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 24, 2019, 05:46:13 PM
That is what I thought the 'brass piece of debris' looked like in your first disassembly. This is good news in that you now know what caused it and can fix it with certainty; this one should not come back to bite you in the butt.

Brian
Wow.....well I was in the clear until you posted this..... now I'm sure to get the "you're in the clear" Whammy!    ;D
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: PH14 on January 24, 2019, 08:23:27 PM
I didn't pay,  it wasn't ready.  He took it apart again because the key would only come out when it was turned all the way to the right, it was stuck in the switch in the lock position  ;D
I let him know he disassembled it a 2nd time for nothing lol.  I'll ask him tomorrow when I pick it up what might of caused this to happen and I'm sure his reply will be user error..... I'll update tomorrow....

 :rotflmao:
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: BrianK on January 25, 2019, 06:17:26 PM
Ok time to put this story to bed.  I picked up my lock today and it works fine.  The total bill was $74 which is more than I expected , the labor rate is $92/hr (I didn't know this) and they charged me 3/4 hr labor. This is a lot less than this fiasco could of cost me so overall I'm happy and thanks to everyone on this site who helped. 
  Unfortunately the guy who fixed my lock wasn't there so I didn't find out the cause of the broken wafer or if it's common
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on January 26, 2019, 04:56:08 PM
Ok time to put this story to bed.  I picked up my lock today and it works fine.  The total bill was $74 which is more than I expected , the labor rate is $92/hr (I didn't know this) and they charged me 3/4 hr labor. This is a lot less than this fiasco could of cost me so overall I'm happy and thanks to everyone on this site who helped. 
  Unfortunately the guy who fixed my lock wasn't there so I didn't find out the cause of the broken wafer or if it's common

Glad you got it fixed...
Bummed about the $$ thing tho.. but I guess its normal... everyone wants the Pie$$ , seems they should have given you some ballpark $ figure, I would have had to ask them before letting them run wild...

I'm kind of lucky here in my small town, I have people that do business a bit differently (yeah, I know, old fashioned etc...) but some things done by locals, for locals, that have known and used them for years, get perks... and word of mouth advertising at local watering holes and such.

I think you did well to find the initial cause, now enlist someone that may be able to really fix it, in a matter of minutes for you, with the assembly in hand..

Locksmiths are hard to find anymore, I have 2 local ones, that have passed the business' down from grandfather, to son, and now grandson... they can do in 5 minutes what it would take me an hour, and make it work.
best of luck.

I guess my thoughts on 5 minutes really don't relate to a clock as much as some bussiness' do.

anywho, glad it's perking...
 :thumbs: :thumbs:
Title: Re: Key stuck
Post by: Locksmith on January 29, 2019, 11:23:08 PM
Ok time to put this story to bed.  I picked up my lock today and it works fine.  The total bill was $74 which is more than I expected , the labor rate is $92/hr (I didn't know this) and they charged me 3/4 hr labor. This is a lot less than this fiasco could of cost me so overall I'm happy and thanks to everyone on this site who helped. 
  Unfortunately the guy who fixed my lock wasn't there so I didn't find out the cause of the broken wafer or if it's common

Broken wafers are not common, but they do occur.   The cause is usually due to them being forced with an incorrect key, or someone trying to force the lock with a screwdriver etc.  I would suggest that this wouldn't happen if you (or previous owner?) left the stove knob in the cylinder all the time.

Regarding how much it cost to repair.  I would never quote on a job like this.  I would suggest our hourly rate and say that would probably cover it, but there is no way to really know what is going on until you get it apart.  Especially when it is a cylinder I have never seen before.  For example, I quoted a customer $600 to open their safe yesterday.  I'm only going to bill them about $200, but I need to prepare them for the worst otherwise I could be wasting both our time.

Also, as the locksmith probably doesn't have access to replacement wafers (every manufacturer is different), your locksmith either simply left it out or modified another manufacturers wafer to fit yours (ie. filed it to fit).