How hard is the valve adjust really....

[Mad River Marc]

So it is looking more and more like my job situation may be not so good right around the time I will be needing the 14k mile service (Will need it by Nov/Dec but will do in spring) so I likely will not be able to pay the stealer to do it.  Inotherwords, I will probably have to do it myself...

Now I've done some fairly grizzly work on cars.. (Timing belts, Cyl head swaps etc) and I've done timing belts and a cyl head swap on a 2v Ducati, but nothing like this.

I have Fred's videos, and I've watched them several times now, it doesn't LOOK too difficult, just tedious. 

So my questions are:

1) How easy is it to get the timing wrong and how far off does the engine need to be to bang a valve? (I've seen some cars where 1 tooth allegedly can bend a valve)
2) How much would a decent precision Micrometer cost me
3) Do most dealers have to order shims or do they have them in stock usually?  Also how expensive are they?
4) How easy is it to strip a bolt on the cam covers (After all, most of the rest of the fasteners are made of Fine Chocolate) and if that happens how bad is it?
5) After re-installing the Cams, and I turn the motor over by hand to feel if anything is out of whack, if I  feel something start to touch, is it ok to turn the motor the other way to line it up and re-adjust the timing, or do I need to pull the cams where they are and THEN re-turn the motor?? (Also, I assume if I turn by hand and feel no interference I won't bang a valve on start up if it's a tiny bit off)

Lastly,  with regards to the Cam Chain tensioner, It looks pretty straightforward,  but once I retract it to re-install,  how can I tell if it went back in properly and didn't push out too far when tightening it down (I remember reading someone who had the tensioner OVER tight and the chain snapped grenading the motor)   

I am pretty confident I can do it, but just want to make sure I cover ALL the bases

Thanks in advance

[lather]

1) How easy is it to get the timing wrong and how far off does the engine need to be to bang a
valve? (I've seen some cars where 1 tooth allegedly can bend a valve)
If you follow instructions in the manual and Fred's Vids it should be hard to get it off by more than 1 tooth. It is hard to slip the cam gear in place just right on your first try but check your marks and keep trying til they line up. Get your eyes at level with the head abd peal up the corner of the gasket so you have a clear, level view. If you are off a tooth it will be obvious, the lines will not be aligned.
2) How much would a decent precision Micrometer cost me.
$25-$30 should be adequate for this job.3) Do most dealers have to order shims or do they have them in stock usually?  Also how expensive are they?
The two dealers I have tried do not have shims in stock. I am sure this varies from place to place but I would count on having to order. $6-$10 from the dealer. Hotcams is far cheaper but you have to buy a pack of 5 and they don't have the half sizes. You could get real lucky but don't count on it.4) How easy is it to strip a bolt on the cam covers (After all, most of the rest of the fasteners are made of Fine Chocolate) and if that happens how bad is it?
I found mine easy to loosen, no problems at all. I used a small 1/4 " drive ratchet and an allen socket. An inch pound  1/4 " drive torque wrench also worked for most tightening work.

5) After re-installing the Cams, and I turn the motor over by hand to feel if anything is out of whack, if I  feel something start to touch, is it ok to turn the motor the other way to line it up and re-adjust the timing, or do I need to pull the cams where they are and THEN re-turn the motor?? (Also, I assume if I turn by hand and feel no interference I won't bang a valve on start up if it's a tiny bit off)
Not sure about this answer.

Lastly,  with regards to the Cam Chain tensioner, It looks pretty straightforward,  but once I retract it to re-install,  how can I tell if it went back in properly and didn't push out too far when tightening it down (I remember reading someone who had the tensioner OVER tight and the chain snapped grenading the motor)   
Make sue your work environment is quiet and you can hear the click as the clip releases either whiles tightening the mounting bolts or during your trial crankcase turning
I am pretty confident I can do it, but just want to make sure I cover ALL the bases

Thanks in advance
[/quote]

[Mad River Marc]

Thanks Lather

So for the tensioner,  Do I want it to bolt all the way down before it releases (IE it will release when I turn the motor) or should it release as I am tightening it down?

[B.D.F.]

I believe a valve lash check / adjustment difficulty rates an H.D.U. of 17, and that is on a scale of 1 to 10 (H.D.U.: Haroldo Difficulty Units, a certified SAE measurement).

I think Haroldo is best qualified to answer this question. Paging Haroldo.... Paging Haroldo.... Please pick up the white courtesy phone in the <virtual> forum lobby.

Brian

<snip>

So my questions are:

<snipped questions>

I am pretty confident I can do it, but just want to make sure I cover ALL the bases

Thanks in advance

[lather]

Thanks Lather

So for the tensioner,  Do I want it to bolt all the way down before it releases (IE it will release when I turn the motor) or should it release as I am tightening it down?

I think you do want it flush with the engine. Mine once released as I was torquing the bolts, the other time it did not release until I turned the crank.

[Mad River Marc]

Thanks everyone,   I rewatched Fred's videos again last night and now that Lather cleared up my CT question, I think I will be ok to do the check.  I just need to see if local stealers will have the Shims (If I need them)

[ridingfar]

Where are you located? There are some of us that will come assist with the job if possible should you desire a helping hand.......

[Mad River Marc]

I'm in the NY Metro area (Jersey City) but my garage where I have lift and tools is lower NYC.... 

When the time comes I'd love to have some assistance

[vortex2]

I think the list has many people who went beyond the 14k before checking clearances.
I just checked mine at 25k and none were even close to being out of spec.
Your experience (and willingness to exceed limits) may vary.

I think a lot of us remember when valve seats were made out of pot metal.
Todays engines are far more durable.

[Cheesecake]

No way you will find the shims in stock. Don't even hope for it. The shims I found at several dealers were only hotcam shims, they skip every other size, so you won't be able to make do with them. The specs for this engine are tight--only .05 mm between the high and low measurement. If you use hotcam shims, you have .05 mm between sizes. So you might get one to fit in there, but out of the 16 valves some will hit right at the high or low measurement and when the cams are put back in, the feeler gauge will show you are out of spec. I like to hit the middle, and not do this labor intensive job just to leave a valve right at the edge of being out of spec.

The critical factor you will need to prepare for, is stick to metric measurements for everything. Don't use an inch feeler gauge, the gaps are huge. You need a metric set of gauges that are in increments of .01 mm MAXIMUM. They will be .04, .05, .06, .07, .08, .09, etc. Even in Fred's videos he uses inch feelers and everything seemed to work out fine. But mathematically if you use gaps that large on your feeler gauge, you will have about one out of four out of spec when you put the cams back in and recheck it. Most guys are tired of the job after waiting for ordered shims the first time and just skip the rechecking after reassembling the cams, or they hamfist the feeler gauge to make it appear to work.  I had to pull the cams and reorder the shims.  Also, I had most of my valves needing adjustment, and several shims two sizes off after 24,000 miles.

[lather]

No way you will find the shims in stock. Don't even hope for it. The shims I found at several dealers were only hotcam shims, they skip every other size, so you won't be able to make do with them. The specs for this engine are tight--only .05 mm between the high and low measurement. If you use hotcam shims, you have .05 mm between sizes. So you might get one to fit in there, but out of the 16 valves some will hit right at the high or low measurement and when the cams are put back in, the feeler gauge will show you are out of spec. I like to hit the middle, and not do this labor intensive job just to leave a valve right at the edge of being out of spec.

The critical factor you will need to prepare for, is stick to metric measurements for everything. Don't use an inch feeler gauge, the gaps are huge. You need a metric set of gauges that are in increments of .01 mm MAXIMUM. They will be .04, .05, .06, .07, .08, .09, etc. Even in Fred's videos he uses inch feelers and everything seemed to work out fine. But mathematically if you use gaps that large on your feeler gauge, you will have about one out of four out of spec when you put the cams back in and recheck it. Most guys are tired of the job after waiting for ordered shims the first time and just skip the rechecking after reassembling the cams, or they hamfist the feeler gauge to make it appear to work.  I had to pull the cams and reorder the shims.  Also, I had most of my valves needing adjustment, and several shims two sizes off after 24,000 miles.

This is all true but where do you find metric gauges in .01 increments beyond .15? I have searched extensively with no luck. Every metric set I have found skips to .05 increments after .15 Considering the tight working room, at least for my large handes, layering two guages is not an a good solution for me.

Due to hyaving imadequate guages I to decided to order more shims and  redo my recent adjustment. BUT, had I not been waiting on a Morgan Carbtune to cross the Atlantic I probably would have settled on a half-assed job..

[jjsC6]

You guys are serious that dealers don't have the shims in stock?   I find that hard to comprehend that they would not given that they fit several bikes.  Thanks for the heads up as that will be the first question I ask when I look for a dealer to do it.  I don't want my bike sitting there for a day or two before they get to it, then a day to check them, then a couple more days to wait for shims to come in, then a couple of more days to get to the bike and put it back together.  Sounds pretty lame to me.

[Cheesecake]

You guys are serious that dealers don't have the shims in stock?   I find that hard to comprehend that they would not given that they fit several bikes.  Thanks for the heads up as that will be the first question I ask when I look for a dealer to do it.  I don't want my bike sitting there for a day or two before they get to it, then a day to check them, then a couple more days to wait for shims to come in, then a couple of more days to get to the bike and put it back together.  Sounds pretty lame to me.

There are a lot of little parts that the service manual calls for replacement of, that you can add to the "I thought that would be in stock" list. Washers for drain plugs, my favorite is the radiator drain washer/gasket. Never found them at the dealer, always order and wait--usually wait for a week. My friend McDonald that worked on my bike for free in high school, he never replaced any washers, hell half the time he just left them off completely...

[lather]

You guys are serious that dealers don't have the shims in stock?   I find that hard to comprehend that they would not given that they fit several bikes.  Thanks for the heads up as that will be the first question I ask when I look for a dealer to do it.  I don't want my bike sitting there for a day or two before they get to it, then a day to check them, then a couple more days to wait for shims to come in, then a couple of more days to get to the bike and put it back together.  Sounds pretty lame to me.

I should clarify: Most dealer service departments have a supply of shims in stock for use by their mechanics but these are not for sale. I have heard reports of service managers willing to trade shims but that was not the case for my dealer.

[B.D.F.]

I am not sure some of that is quite accurate.... the entire adjustment can be done quite well and handily in English standard measurements. The smallest common English feeler gauges available are in 0.0005" increments (one half of one thousandth of an inch, or 50 millionths of an inch if you prefer). Metric feelers in 0.01mm increments are 0.0003935, or approx. 0.0004" which is 20% smaller. There are four English measuring divisions w/in the tolerance of a C-14's lash tolerance, and five metric divisions. Using metric feelers might be better but English measurements are more than adequate to do this job.

The thing I suggest to anyone doing this job is to pick one measuring system and stay with it for the entire job. For example, if using English measurement units, convert the entire table of metric shims to English measurements before you start the job and do all calculations in English only. Converting one dimension from metric 'here and there' as you go invites mistakes.

Dealers do not have shims in stock for sale as parts but most of them have a batch of shims in the service dept. At least some dealers will let you swap out shims with them either at no cost or some charge per shim exchanged.

Brian

No way you will find the shims in stock. Don't even hope for it. The shims I found at several dealers were only hotcam shims, they skip every other size, so you won't be able to make do with them. The specs for this engine are tight--only .05 mm between the high and low measurement. If you use hotcam shims, you have .05 mm between sizes. So you might get one to fit in there, but out of the 16 valves some will hit right at the high or low measurement and when the cams are put back in, the feeler gauge will show you are out of spec. I like to hit the middle, and not do this labor intensive job just to leave a valve right at the edge of being out of spec.

The critical factor you will need to prepare for, is stick to metric measurements for everything. Don't use an inch feeler gauge, the gaps are huge. You need a metric set of gauges that are in increments of .01 mm MAXIMUM. They will be .04, .05, .06, .07, .08, .09, etc. Even in Fred's videos he uses inch feelers and everything seemed to work out fine. But mathematically if you use gaps that large on your feeler gauge, you will have about one out of four out of spec when you put the cams back in and recheck it. Most guys are tired of the job after waiting for ordered shims the first time and just skip the rechecking after reassembling the cams, or they hamfist the feeler gauge to make it appear to work.  I had to pull the cams and reorder the shims.  Also, I had most of my valves needing adjustment, and several shims two sizes off after 24,000 miles.

[MAN OF BLUES]

......... I like to hit the middle, and not do this labor intensive job just to leave a valve right at the edge of being out of spec.

The critical factor you will need to prepare for, is stick to metric measurements for everything. Don't use an inch feeler gauge, the gaps are huge. You need a metric set of gauges that are in increments of .01 mm MAXIMUM. They will be .04, .05, .06, .07, .08, .09, etc. Even in Fred's videos he uses inch feelers and everything seemed to work out fine. But mathematically if you use gaps that large on your feeler gauge, you will have about one out of four out of spec when you put the cams back in and recheck it. .........

I personally tend to agree with Brian, and found little if any difficulty converting any dimensions to inches during my adjust, and Mind you I measured EVERY part, shims, clearances AND bucket head thickness' during the exam.
Stick with one system or another fully, and it should be fine. I simply found purchasing all the individual fine increment stainless and carbon steel feeler gages from McMaster-Carr, along with a .0001" micrometer, to be more than adequate for this service.
Stacking feelers is fine if you stick the .000x" ones in the middle of the stack, and insure they are all clean (wipe every time).
if you do measure the individual shims, you will find that even though they SHOULD all be correctly marked, they ALL differ slightly, and with a .0001" Mic you will see this.
Maybe do a search for my adjust/final shim chart here, and you will see the actual readings I recorded on all the parts. I don't feel i could have been more precise using fully metric measuring devices and feeler gages.

I took all of my shimming to the TOP limits, as this is safe, and will allow for a more forgiving time line on the longevity till next service limit. I have no problems with the performance as a result.

[jjsC6]

I should clarify: Most dealer service departments have a supply of shims in stock for use by their mechanics but these are not for sale. I have heard reports of service managers willing to trade shims but that was not the case for my dealer.

Thanks for clarifying that.  Appreciated.

[lather]

OK, here is a are some questions for the feeler gauge experts. BENT or STRAIGHT? I feel like working a straight feeler around obstacles puts pressure on the gauge that influences the "feel". Do y'all use a bent gauge to avoid this or am I worrying too much? If you use bent guages do you buy them or bend your own?

[B.D.F.]

I don't know if I am a feeler gauge expert (is there such a thing?) but at least my answer is free....

Straight for a C-14 because they fit in the space available better than the bent ones IMO. The straight ones are also easier to push into the gap as you mention. Some vehicles gap test best with bent feelers but all the cam followers on the C-14 are very easy to get to directly with straight feeler gauges. You may have to bend them somewhat but that is no problem as long as they are not bent so far they kink.

Brian

OK, here is a are some questions for the feeler gauge experts. BENT or STRAIGHT? I feel like working a straight feeler around obstacles puts pressure on the gauge that influences the "feel". Do y'all use a bent gauge to avoid this or am I worrying too much? If you use bent guages do you buy them or bend your own?

[MAN OF BLUES]

I prefer flat....I can make bent if needed....
Buy bulk 12" long ones from McMaster-Carr, and use those, I loath having to use "sets" that are rivetted or bolted together, they are a p.i.t.a. to manipulate, for as many different ones you need, having them loose saves a lot of time.