Kawasaki Concours Forum
Mish mash => Open Forum => Topic started by: Steve in Sunny Fla on December 14, 2012, 12:51:18 PM
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Happened again. Massacre in school, as I'm hearing it right now, a whole class of kindergarteners is dead, along with 8 adults. On the heels of the Clakamas mall shooting.
Kindergateners. This is cowardice of the highest order. My heart is broken for the families stripped of their greatest hope, their children.
I have made a decision that IF I'm ever in a situation like this, I'm not running away. I'm running to. If this is the "new world" then all of us men need to step up and protect our families and kids - ALL families and kids, not just our own. If men nationwide step up and say "enough" at least, as a society, we're finding a way to combat this senseless violence. I'm not special, there are millions of us. We need to understand the power we have together. it starts with "I will not run away". Steve
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Unfortunately with the mindset today (promoted by the publik skool system) running to it we become the bad guys and the real bad guys become the victims.
Come to think of it the actual bad guys are the ones turning our kids minds to mush.
Its a shame what happened today but the media wackos have alreadyturned it into political fodder, calling the need for more gun control.
To me, gun control is never having to say, "I missed you".
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I cannot wait to hear the lame a** excuse for why this fool thought he had to shoot 4 and 5 year old children.
The current society propagated by liberals has created monsters like this. When I was in school we never heard of stuff like this happening because IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. These kids did nothing to deserve this kind of punishment.
I hope this guy burns in hell for this. I just wish we could identify idiots like this ahead of time so we could exterminate them before they mature. Allowing teachers and staff to be armed would surely do more good than stripping the law abiding american citizen of their 2nd amendment rights.
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Very Very Sad! I have owned guns all my life and have never shot anyone. This is a very strong example of what happens when a gunman shows up and starts shooting. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away. Our founders solved this problem many years ago.
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Incredibly sad. I can't even express myself. :'(
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Very sad day. Thank God I live in Texas where, if I run into the fight, and I'm righteous, I'm likely legally ok. Frankly, I can live with getting legally screwed if I saved a life. I don't think I can live with feeling that lives were lost because I was hiding under a table.
We allow Brinks drivers protecting cash to carry guns. But we pen up our most prized commodity into "gun free" zones and then pull the teeth of the few sheep dogs protecting them.
Gun control? Arm and train teachers.
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After the Virginia campus shootings several years ago our school district did an incredible thing, they got rid of the school resource officers because they said they couldn't justify the expense. I would rethink that idea again if I were them. This kind of thing is happening WAY too often.
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(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/sreinschmidt/signaboutshooting_zps5e7f13ab.jpg)
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Amen to all. I heard "Mr." Obama speaking today and calling for action on this and I'm thinking "BOHICA". One armed adult could have stopped that.
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--Snip---One armed trained adult could have stopped that.
FIFY. %100
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Steve, I adopted that policy probably 25+ years ago. If I perceive potential problems in parking lots, malls, public events, etc., I simply position myself between the potential perps and my family and start walking directly toward them. I also bulldoze myself over these baggy pants maggots in the malls. I simply refuse to be intimidated by the likes of these punks. I have had my ass kicked a couple of times. But I have busted more heads than the whuppings I received.
The way I see it, it would be a shame to have a family member or innocent people injured. It would be a tragedy if you didn't die trying to prevent it.
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My heart is broken for all those families and their loss. Praying that God will provide strength and comfort to them. I'm also angry at how the libs are going to grandstand this for their gun control agenda.
I'm in Steve. I will run to, not away, if there is a chance I can save a life. My Christmas present from my wife this year is a concealed carry class and carry permit. I am also looking into some additional training above what is required.
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I'm so sickened by the thought of the cowardice of this 'person' that I can't even put it to words.
My heart goes out to the families of the victims.Very sad day. Thank God I live in Texas where, if I run into the fight, and I'm righteous, I'm likely legally ok. Frankly, I can live with getting legally screwed if I saved a life. I don't think I can live with feeling that lives were lost because I was hiding under a table.
We allow Brinks drivers protecting cash to carry guns. But we pen up our most prized commodity into "gun free" zones and then pull the teeth of the few sheep dogs protecting them.
Gun control? Arm and train teachers.
I wholeheartedly agree. I'm going to use the Brinks example when some anti gun starts flapping their mouth.
My son just showed me a post on Reddit of a school outing in Israel. There's a parent following behind with a rifle slung over her shoulder. That's how to do it! (sorry, I don't know how to link)
I'm a farmer/rancher. When a bear gets one of my calves I get rid of the problem before he does it again and I kick myself for not tending to the problem before it was a problem.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the world is full of wolves and sheep. I'll do anything I can to protect my beloved sheep from the wolves that lurk behind every bush. I just wish the Gov. and do-gooders would let me do my job.
I wish someone could have protected these little lambs before this awful wolf got ahold of them!
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Absolutely, Connie1. There are a ton of sheep in the world, and a lot more wolves than sheep dogs. We need more sheep dogs. I hope I never had to deal with a wolf, but if I do, I'll sure give it my best.
here's the pic you referenced.
http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg)
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I'm so sickened by the thought of the cowardice of this 'person' that I can't even put it to words.
My heart goes out to the families of the victims.
I wholeheartedly agree. I'm going to use the Brinks example when some anti gun starts flapping their mouth.
My son just showed me a post on Reddit of a school outing in Israel. There's a parent following behind with a rifle slung over her shoulder. That's how to do it! (sorry, I don't know how to link)
I'm a farmer/rancher. When a bear gets one of my calves I get rid of the problem before he does it again and I kick myself for not tending to the problem before it was a problem.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the world is full of wolves and sheep. I'll do anything I can to protect my beloved sheep from the wolves that lurk behind every bush. I just wish the Gov. and do-gooders would let me do my job.
I wish someone could have protected these little lambs before this awful wolf got ahold of them!
Absolutely, Connie1. There are a ton of sheep in the world, and a lot more wolves than sheep dogs. We need more sheep dogs. I hope I never had to deal with a wolf, but if I do, I'll sure give it my best.
here's the pic you referenced.
http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=11692.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=11692.0)
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That's it. Thanks, Conrad.
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Too sad for words. If you took a super magnet and sucked up all of the guns in the world and melted them down, we still be stuck with evil people in the world and they'd find another tool to do their deeds. Why is it when these atrocities happen rarely do we hear of the "sheepdog" coming to the rescue?. . .
. . .because in the rare cases where it does happen it gets buried and twisted such as the Virginia Tech shootings where ~280 newspapers didn't mention that 2 students ran to there cars to get their guns to finally put a stop to the killings. Only 4 papers mentioned it!! If you're anti-gun it goes against your grain to credit guns for saving lives.
Train the teachers (the stable ones) and arm them so the can open carry.
For those who carry and are properly trained, you carry not to protect just yourself, but to protect others. Run towards the evil.
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And give credit to the unarmed teachers holed up in storage rooms or bathrooms with their students...after the shooting had stopped...when the police knocked on those doors and said "Police, it's OK to come out"...the teachers said "NO! Prove to me you are the police!" True defenders of a belief will fight with whatever they have at hand...and, while they had no weapons to battle the intruder, they didn't just unlock the doors...they went all the way to protect their students...they deserve the highest praise...my heart is broken by what happened first...and, yet, lifted by what happened second...and, to all the victims, families, responders, and all those affected by this horrible act...I will pray for each and every one of you.
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In 1993 I was given the responsibility of developing a school emergency plan for a high school with a student and staff population of over 900.
More than once I found myself thinking about the reluctance of the automotive industry to put in effective safety devices. They didn't want to scare the public into thinking cars were unsafe and just wanted to sell the smiles. I met with more than a few people who didn't really think an emergency plan for a school should go much beyond fire drills so that everyone could be happy in their belief that schools would never be a target or that it couldn't happen "here".
I quickly learned to start my conversations and presentations with the declaration that our school was a safe place based on incident reports and stakeholder interviews.
But .... we needed to consider worse case scenarios. One of the questions raised was who do you open the door for after a lockdown or emergency situation. That young teacher who was protectiong her students in a washroom did everything right in demanding proof and more proof.
I know in every school there are teachers and staff who would do all they could to protect their students from harm. The recognition of threats and the planned response is proven once again to save lives. From that perspective the planning worked.....but there is a terrible price to pay to find that out.
Having been in a few situations and having had to consider many others I have an idea how I will react and work to protect and help both myself and others.
Steve, that makes at least two of us!
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"I will not run away" is a developed mindset. While it's always been my personality to run to a bad event in the hopes I can help, I have to say that I never considered what I'd do in an "active shooter" situation. As of the latest shootings, my family has sat down and worked up plans of action. If we have a plan, we're not left standing. wondering what to do. My wife and daughters' plan includes taking cover, escape, hiding, etc, depending on their circumstance at that moment. Mine is to run to the problem. I'll asess as I go, but I'm going. We're training our minds, that's all. Like not applying brakes on ice, sometimes your training has to overcome your immediate reaction. I'm glad to see others feel the same as I do, it IS what I expected. We need to get the word out with our friends that our strength is in our numbers, and acting as a cohesive element to protect others. And I pray that I'm never faced with having to act on this, or that anyone ever has to. Steve
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"...We need to get the word out with our friends that our strength is in our numbers, and acting as a cohesive element to protect others...."
In personal situations we may not have the benefit of numbers, but our strength and our effectiveness will be in our unflinching recognition of our responsibilities, in our resolve and in our preparedness.
I didn't grow up in this armed culture, so the issue of armed attacks was never an issue to me. I started thinking about it when I moved to this country thirty years ago; and an armed incident started becoming the stuff of nightmares, looming in my subconscious - and now conscious - memory ever since my first child was born nineteen years ago. I own no guns, but I think many times of where the knives are in the house, of what other objects might be called into action as a weapon, and what my defense strategy would be, were our house breached. Bullets travel easily through walls, so I'm not sure what I could do against an armed assailant, but at least I now have an alarm system in the house to give my family warning and to call police, and I know what and where the "weapons-grade domestic artifacts" are. There is more I should do, though, and I am now stirred to action, though admittedly without much of a clue.
I should say here, as a point of history, that while I grew up in England - a tamer culture than this one - I joined, as part of my high school education, the "CCF" or "Combined Cadet Force" - a military cadet group ran by masters of the school who had, back in the 60's, some military background. We had a firing range in the basement of the school, and among our many para-military exercises (they were trying to prepare us for commissioned officer-duty, it being a top streamed school, trying to turn out little gentlemen) I learned to shoot .22 and .303, and earned First Class rating in the latter, though I didn't quite make Marksman. I am respectful of guns, but I remain very wary of them when they are in the hands of somebody I don't know and trust.
Back to my point. The aching problem for me, is that I see people arming themselves and thinking they are safe. You can't sit in your armchair, loaded gun in hand, looking at every door and window in the house twenty four hours a day. It is dangerous to imagine scenarios in one's mind, fantasize about deftly snatching up the pistol that just happens to be sitting conveniently beside us, and efficiently dispatching the idiot who made the unfortunate mistake to pick the wrong house and who inexplicably wasn't expecting the owner to be armed. It's a comforting thought, but things just don't work the way we imagine them.
The same is true for schools. Do you better mentally prepare mild-mannered teachers who spend every working day of their lives with smiling little children by equipping them with weapons in the classroom? How do you arm a teacher or a classroom such that a weapon is readily available in seconds in a time of need, yet completely out of the way of inquisitive children? Further, arming teachers means that all would-be attackers now have the bar raised for them, and would go in a school even more prepared. They would go straight for the teacher in any classroom. I am not convinced that such a well-meaning reaction would provide the benefit we imagine. Again, there is great danger in imagining that the situation would transpire as we would wish it.
I'm not at all saying that we shouldn't take preparatory action. I totally agree with you, Steve, that the best possible preparation is the steeling of the mind, learning to keep our minds and eyes open in the skid on the ice, to use your excellent metaphor. It is our mental training and our conviction to be there and to be effective when needed that will be our best potential contribution. After all, any fool crazy and twisted enough to attack a school of kids has certainly contemplated exactly what he is going to do, and is well prepared, and in that he has the advantage every time. Our preparation must not simply be enactment, playing through a fantastic Cowboys and Indians movie in our minds eye; it must include thinking through being in real, mortal danger ourselves.
As motorcyclists we have that certain mindset wherein we do what we do despite full knowledge of the dangers, and as such we are, as a group, statistically more likely to have sheepdog mindsets, at least in embryonic form. I hope so. We are at least conscious of the risk of severe injury and, while aware and respectful, we are essentially unafraid of it. We achieve that state of mind by our preparedness - by the "ATGATT" mentality, for example. And I hope that we all, individually, take stock of what we are inside, of what we can and should do to prepare ourselves for that rare and unfortunate event when we are called upon to act in the defense of others, and when our mettle is tested.
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Copied from an email I recieved from Front Sight Training Institute,
For Immediate Release: Friday, December 14, 2012
Dear Carl,
Please Forward to Your Local Newspapers, Radio Stations, and Television News Stations
Subject: Gun School For Teachers
Las Vegas, Nevada: In the wake of the yet another senseless school massacre, I ask all our politicians, law enforcement officials, and school administrators one simply question:
WHEN ARE WE GOING TO WAKE UP AS A NATION AND PROTECT OUR CHILDREN?
How many more children have to die before we will find the testicular fortitude, as a nation, to put in place REAL policies that will stop a deranged gunman in his tracks, before he can commit mass murder on innocent and defenseless children?
How many times do I have to offer the nation THE solution?
What the hell is wrong with the leaders of our country? Find a pair, and make the RIGHT decision to protect our children, not more of the wrong decisions that create the opportunity for the next lunatic to murder at will with zero resistance!
Once again, Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, arguably the world leader in providing intensified courses in the defensive use of firearms for private citizens, has the answer to stopping further attacks on school children. Front Sight will once again offer free firearms training to any school administrator, teachers, or full time staff members designated as school Safety Monitors.
Front Sight will accept for training up to three staff members from each school, college or university.
Applicants must submit a letter requesting training on school letterhead signed by the top school district official and designating the applicant as the school's Safety Monitor.
Please forward this e-mail to your state and federal legislators, local law enforcement departments and your child's school administrator, as well as your friends and family, asking them to do the same.
Guns and Teachers
As Front Sight's Founder and Director, I understand my offer to train armed school teachers may offend some school administrators and parents who do not see arming and training selected school staff members as a positive solution to violent attacks. However, historically, my approach has worked while gun control has actually increased violent crime by shifting the balance of power to favor the criminals and lunatics.
My offer is not a new idea. In the early 70's, Israel was faced with much greater problems of armed terrorist attacks on schools. The cry for more gun control was heard then too, but Israel very carefully analyzed all possible options before adopting the proactive position of arming and training their teachers. School shootings stopped and terrorists looked for easier targets. Gun control never has and never will stop criminals and madmen from carrying out acts of gun violence.
In our country, every time a misguided individual on psychiatric drugs goes on a killing spree, anti self-defense legislators, watch the polls and exploit the dead victims in order to fool the public into accepting more gun control. It is time our country finds some resolve and the will to tackle the real problem, which is rooting out the actual influences in the lives people hat predispose them to commit atrocities. The problem is not guns. Guns don't cause these incidents to occur any more than cameras cause child pornography or automobiles cause traffic fatalities.
Israel had the right answer. Society is safer when we train and arm our law abiding citizens. As the defensive training leader in the USA, Front Sight is willing and able to set the example for the rest of the country to follow.
Armed Teachers
Dave Clark, who recently retired after teaching for the last 25 years at Junction Junior High School in Livermore, California agrees with Front Sight's philosophy. In fact, Mr. Clark has previously attended a Four Day Defensive Handgun course at Front Sight at his own expense and found the course to be exactly what is needed to train fellow teachers to stop an attack similar to Columbine school and Virginia Tech. "Front Sight provides safe and responsible training to a level that exceeds law enforcement standards." Says Mr. Clark. "Among the many lessons taught, I learned universally accepted rules in justifiable use of deadly force. More importantly, I learned when not to shoot and how to be more mentally prepared to see a lethal confrontation coming before it happens in order to avoid it. The firearms training is second to none and clearly gives the graduates the skill needed to save the lives of those in their charge if ever attacked. If my school district chose to adopt a policy of sending selected teachers to Front Sight for concealed handgun training, I would wholeheartedly support it and volunteer as a Safety Monitor. There is no reason for our children to continue to be victimized when free, professional training is available to stop school attacks."
Guns in Schools
There is evidence that a gun in the hand of a teacher will stop an armed attacker. The vice-principal of a school in Pearl, Mississippi used his handgun to stop and detain an armed killer until the police arrived. It seems obvious that armed and trained staff members inside the school are in a better position to identify the attackers and do something immediately to resolve the situation. It is much harder for police, who arrive on the scene too late to stop the killing.
Lawmakers With Blood on Their Hands
An obstacle to training and arming teachers is the current law in many states prohibiting the possession of firearms on school grounds even when the possessor is qualified and has a concealed weapons license.
Understand that those laws did not prevent or stop the gun violence at numerous schools over the last ten years. The brazen attacks in school after school during the last decade indicate criminals have concluded that 'Gun-Free-School-Zone' actually means 'Government Certified, Helpless and Unarmed Victim Zone.'
Schools Can't Afford to Pass on No Cost Security
Most school districts cannot afford to have even one full time police officer in every school, but they can easily afford to train three or more of their selected staff members to a higher level of firearms training than offered in police academies because Front Sight will provide the training at no cost.
Retired law enforcement firearms instructor, Mike Waidelich from Bakersfield, California strongly supports the Front Sight concept of arming and training teachers. "Nearly every tragedy on or off school grounds in the entire 30 years of my law enforcement career could have been prevented or the damage done considerably limited, by the presence of an armed and trained individual."
Concealed Guns
The training provided in Front Sight's basic training classes easily exceeds the training provided in most police basic training academies.
Front Sight proved it on their nationally televised reality series Front Sight Challenge. 80 Seasoned law enforcement officers from around the country went head-to-head in tests of marksmanship, speed and tactics against 80 private citizens-- including teachers-- who had not received any training other than Front Sight's firearms courses. Remarkably, the Front Sight trained, private citizens won over half of every contest.
Teachers will be trained to carry a concealed weapon, so potential attackers will not know which teachers are armed and which are not. In states that have adopted concealed weapon laws for private citizens, violent crime has dropped. School attacks will drop as well once it is known that any of the teachers and staff members on school grounds have the ability and training to stop a violent attack immediately.
There is also scientific research that supports Front Sight's stance on concealed weapon training from John Lott, Jr. at University of Chicago School of Law who published Crime, Deterrence and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns in July 1996. Mr. Lott's research of cross-sectional time-series data from all 3054 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992 found that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crime and appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have right-to-carry concealed handgun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly.
Gun Control Increases Violent Crime
How many times must we experience another Littleton, Colorado or Virginia Tech or Newtown Connecticut massacre before we wake up, study the research and adopt policies which actually reduce crime and begin saving our children instead of leaving them helpless victims when the next psych drug user snaps?
Gun control increases violent crime yet some politicians continue to tout disarming law abiding citizens as a solution. Front Sight has a better solution.
Arm and train school teachers to carry a concealed weapon. And post a DIFFERENT sign outside of ever school!
Look for the RIGHT sign all over America. They are in front of the homes of armed and trained Front Sight students. If you were a deranged murderer, which house would you invade? One with an armed and trained occupant with a Front Sight sign or one who had a "Gun Free Zone" sign in his yard? The answer is simply to any rational person.
WHY ARE SCHOOLS ANY DIFFERENT?
Don't have a sign? Get one here: http://www.readytodefend.com/frontsight/ (http://www.readytodefend.com/frontsight/)
It is time WE WAKE UP and start providing REAL protection for our children in schools. Front Sight stands ready, willing and able to train every teacher in America if that is what it takes! Help us protect your children by demanding YOUR school send their teachers to Front Sight!
Sincerely,
Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Founder and Director
Front Sight Firearms Training Institute
7975 Cameron Drive, #900
Windsor, CA 95492
http://www.frontsight.com (http://www.frontsight.com)
info@frontsight.com
1.800.987.7719
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(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/sreinschmidt/signaboutshooting_zps5e7f13ab.jpg)
Depends on if you ask a liberal or anyone else
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My wife attributes much of these mindless shooting to anti-depressant and like medicines rather than guns - and she is probably right.
I am not going to advocate that everyone should surrender their guns, blah, blah. But here is my question - what measure is in place that individuals or families takes the precaution that these guns do not fall in wrong hands. Now, I do not equate psychotic killings with murderers with motives - because psychotic killings such as what happened in the school is far more dangerous. I do not disagree to the fact that well armed teachers could have avoided this incident. But the question is do you consider everyone that gets licensed as a teacher of mental health that will not turn their guns on the students, or just kill some one because they perceive as threat? What I find here is pro guns are just advocating give guns to everyone, while anti guns are saying just remove guns completely. Can there not be measures that you can have guns, but there has to be a thorough check? To me, such a measure is not about controlling the guns, but controlling the individual that can have one. Isn't it already being said that it is not the gun that kills, but the person wielding it? So why is it such as heart ache to put measure around that? I read somewhere that in England, to posses a gun, you have to have two person vouching for you as well as an approval from the police chief (this may have very well changed by now). Honestly, that does not sound like a bad idea to weed out the mentally ill.
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I do not have a CCL as of right now but I will be applying for one after the first of the year, and jumping through all the hoops that Mass. requires you to jump through to get one.
Then Steve ... I too, will not run away.
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My wife attributes much of these mindless shooting to anti-depressant and like medicines rather than guns - and she is probably right.
I am not going to advocate that everyone should surrender their guns, blah, blah. But here is my question - what measure is in place that individuals or families takes the precaution that these guns do not fall in wrong hands. Now, I do not equate psychotic killings with murderers with motives - because psychotic killings such as what happened in the school is far more dangerous. I do not disagree to the fact that well armed teachers could have avoided this incident. But the question is do you consider everyone that gets licensed as a teacher of mental health that will not turn their guns on the students, or just kill some one because they perceive as threat? What I find here is pro guns are just advocating give guns to everyone, while anti guns are saying just remove guns completely. Can there not be measures that you can have guns, but there has to be a thorough check? To me, such a measure is not about controlling the guns, but controlling the individual that can have one. Isn't it already being said that it is not the gun that kills, but the person wielding it? So why is it such as heart ache to put measure around that? I read somewhere that in England, to posses a gun, you have to have two person vouching for you as well as an approval from the police chief (this may have very well changed by now). Honestly, that does not sound like a bad idea to weed out the mentally ill.
I'm fine with denying firearms to people that have shown they cannot be trusted such as felons or someone certified mentally ill and a danger to others by a board certified doctor. Such is already the case in this country and most of the world. But what you are advocating is a "guilty until proven innocent" type of law. I have never met any of my police chief's. How would they have any idea of my competence? Did this guy have any prior offenses or indications that he was a monster? I know from personal experience that people can show absolutely no evidence of violent tendencies and then one day murder 2 people out of the blue.
You Already have to have a background check and have training to carry concealed in all states that have concealed carry permits except Vermont. In Connecticut, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey you have to have a license to buy a gun. It is prohibited for anyone other then police to carry a gun into a school in Connecticut and in most states. At Columbine I read that 18 firearms laws were broken before one shot was fired. Laws only deter the law abiding and reasonable. The worst school massacre in the US occurred on May 18, 1927, 44 dead and 58 injured and he didn't use a gun to do it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe)
IMHO there is no perfect solution. But we must first understand that in a free society we are by definition a soft target. Better that than a police state. Second, at least allow teachers willing to get training and a background check to carry at school. My Son is a teacher in a middle school. He has extensive training and a holder of a CCW permit. He is not even allowed to have a weapon in his truck in the parking lot. Tell me how that is helpful.
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My wife attributes much of these mindless shooting to anti-depressant and like medicines rather than guns - and she is probably right.
I am not going to advocate that everyone should surrender their guns, blah, blah. But here is my question - what measure is in place that individuals or families takes the precaution that these guns do not fall in wrong hands. Now, I do not equate psychotic killings with murderers with motives - because psychotic killings such as what happened in the school is far more dangerous. I do not disagree to the fact that well armed teachers could have avoided this incident. But the question is do you consider everyone that gets licensed as a teacher of mental health that will not turn their guns on the students, or just kill some one because they perceive as threat? What I find here is pro guns are just advocating give guns to everyone, while anti guns are saying just remove guns completely. Can there not be measures that you can have guns, but there has to be a thorough check? To me, such a measure is not about controlling the guns, but controlling the individual that can have one. Isn't it already being said that it is not the gun that kills, but the person wielding it? So why is it such as heart ache to put measure around that? I read somewhere that in England, to posses a gun, you have to have two person vouching for you as well as an approval from the police chief (this may have very well changed by now). Honestly, that does not sound like a bad idea to weed out the mentally ill.
It has been reported (by the lib media) that the individual (Adam?) in Conn attepted to purchase a firearm a few days before the attack but was denied. It was also reported (again by the lib media) that the Oregon shooter stole the firearms he used. Banning arms isn't going to stop a thing. There are millions of them in this country (a fair share owned by me :D). You can't confiscate them all, way too many would resist.
I hate to say it, but there is no way to prevent human violence. It's been happening since the dawn of time. But I do want the ability/opportunity to confront it.
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Before Madelin Murray Ohare and one LIBERAL judge took prayer out of school, this kind of thing did not happen.
Just think, one armed person could have stopped.
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Here's my suggestion - Several folks at each school are probably willing to step up and be the sheepdogs. In order to do so, they must gain their ccw licence - THEN AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE take a class / program developed by law enforcement to be an active shooter immediate responder. Those who pass are then put on the "allowed" list for the given school they have business with. Example - My daughter is in high school. I go to her school for issues / programs, and sports. I would be "on the list" if I jumped the hoops I outlined.
I also want the person who is "stepping up" to be financially responsible for the training to weed out the wannabe's, or those who are "questionable". The vetting process can / should be more stringent also.
Keep in mind that the reason police respond - and the reason we want them to respond - is because they are armed, and society trusts them. there are other good, trustworthy people among us who are not police, but are cut from the same cloth. This should be recognized and embraced. The civilian force is much larger, and much more likely to respond more rapidly.
As far as these unnamed cowards are concerned, all that stuff about them being "more prepared" is hogwash. If they were willing to "fight" they wouldn't choose movie theaters and first graders. Deny them their names (no infamy, just anonymity) and let them know that bullets are coming back at them. I bet things will change. Steve
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Here's my suggestion - Several folks at each school are probably willing to step up and be the sheepdogs. In order to do so, they must gain their ccw licence - THEN AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE take a class / program developed by law enforcement to be an active shooter immediate responder. Those who pass are then put on the "allowed" list for the given school they have business with. Example - My daughter is in high school. I go to her school for issues / programs, and sports. I would be "on the list" if I jumped the hoops I outlined.
I also want the person who is "stepping up" to be financially responsible for the training to weed out the wannabe's, or those who are "questionable". The vetting process can / should be more stringent also.
Keep in mind that the reason police respond - and the reason we want them to respond - is because they are armed, and society trusts them. there are other good, trustworthy people among us who are not police, but are cut from the same cloth. This should be recognized and embraced. The civilian force is much larger, and much more likely to respond more rapidly.
As far as these unnamed cowards are concerned, all that stuff about them being "more prepared" is hogwash. If they were willing to "fight" they wouldn't choose movie theaters and first graders. Deny them their names (no infamy, just anonymity) and let them know that bullets are coming back at them. I bet things will change. Steve
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of training selected teachers just like you would a cop and have them conceal carry - these shooting kids gotta stop. And I like both your thoughts - denying these morons media coverage so another moron do not think they get their fame-infamy via such a means.
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I have a CCW and I am a teacher. However, by law I am not allowed to carry in my work place. So, because "I will not run away", I will be forced to use broom sticks and chalk dust to fight a shooter that comes to my school. So be it.
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Train the teachers (the stable ones) and arm them so the can open carry.
For those who carry and are properly trained, you carry not to protect just yourself, but to protect others. Run towards the evil.
You don't want the trained teachers carrying openly. You need for them to have the element of surprise against any would be attacker. For a would be attacker that might know the school (or whatever the target may be), you would not want him or her to know who is carrying and to look for. Eventhough as crazy as these people that carry out these acts are, in my mind they have one goal and are not real organized. They set out to accomplish what they may think is right and that is it. So having that element of surprise of having concealed carrying faculty is much better than open carry or even a uniformed security or resource officer.
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Before Madelin Murray Ohare and one LIBERAL judge took prayer out of school, this kind of thing did not happen.
Just think, one armed person could have stopped.
Could you delve a bit deeper into that one? Not sure I understand how that has got anything to do with what happened in Sandy Hook.
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Liberalism! Liberals have taken discipline away from parents. They talk about separation of church and state. There is no such thing in the Constitution.
No religion, and no discipline, and you see what happens. I am not religious, don't go to church, but I was brought up to respect my elders and to do the right thing. Taking prayer out of schools was just the start. Liberal judges have Taken away parents right to discipline their kids. Children should not be beaten, but a good spanking never hurt anyone, and a little prayer at school never hurt anyone.
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Liberalism! Liberals have taken discipline away from parents. They talk about separation of church and state. There is no such thing in the Constitution.
No religion, and no discipline, and you see what happens. I am not religious, don't go to church, but I was brought up to respect my elders and to do the right thing. Taking prayer out of schools was just the start. Liberal judges have Taken away parents right to discipline their kids. Children should not be beaten, but a good spanking never hurt anyone, and a little prayer at school never hurt anyone.
I go to Church every sunday and I am involved in teaching the gospel to kids 7 - 8 years old at my Church. Yet, I do not think that has any corelation to psychos shooting at schools.
In regards to prayer, would you object if one day a student want to say a muslim prayer? Another day a buddhist prayer? As far as spaking goes, I did get spanked by teachers and parents alike, but I bore the burnt of some abusive teachers as well. I once got spanked with a cane (broke my skin) just because I did not draw a line straight enough - and this was a Catholic school. I see everyday how some parents treat their kids - no regards whatsoever - some put their kids in medication so they are zoned out. I am not disagreeing that prayer and discipline is good, but that is somethign that starts at home - not just rely on schools.
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I have a CCW and I am a teacher. However, by law I am not allowed to carry in my work place. So, because "I will not run away", I will be forced to use broom sticks and chalk dust to fight a shooter that comes to my school. So be it.
Jim, you have more to offer on this than any of the rest of us, as you're in the classroom daily (I assume). I'd really like to hear any other thoughts you have on this, what you've had to come to grips with internally knowing you are "the front line" etc... and TIA - - steve
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I think spending time with your kids will save a thousand spankings. Providing a positive role model lets them know what the correct way to act is versus the 'ape' mentality they might learn from the masses (I notice kids aspire to the lowest common denominator).
Sitting around the table for half an hour after a family meal, which we try for daily, lets kids discuss their days and provides a time for parents to provide guidance and reassurance. Feedback about ways they handled situations and problems helps them figure out the socially acceptable ways they should act in difficult situations.
I'm very proud of how my kids are turning out and also how my son is already showing sheepdog qualities.
We also make the effort not to be helicopter parents...let them learn for themselves and be sure to help them up after a fall. I think it leads to strong and confident adults... the kind that tend to become sheepdogs.
Can't wait to hear what your President will come up with this week. The discussion this past weekend from the flock was all about controlling the firearms that the sheepdogs will use to protect them. I must be fairly dense cause I can't even fathom how this line of thought comes about.
My son likens it to the war on drugs. Dope has been illegal for a century and it would apparently take ten minutes to get some.
It's mostly the flock that consumes dope, maybe they could understand this line of argument.
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I was never HIT at home, I was the youngest of four , my older sisters who were twins would beg my father to hit me ( I guess they got hit) I don't see why anyone NEEDS to hit anyone.
During 12 years of Catholic school I only had one teacher , a Nun from France that beat your hands with a steel ruler.
When I was 18 (and in college) I got a job at a rock and roll night club , live music six nights a week 10cent beer nights twice a week and everything that goes with drunk people.
When I was hired to check ID & bounce they were looking for someone in their 40's with a cool head because they owned two of these clubs and had several lawsuits because they hired large body builders who enjoyed hitting others.
I played sports and lifted weights but never started fights, I soon became assistant manager and yes I hired a large powerlifter/body builder 4 th degree black belt martial arts ( to protect me) , and we never had to hit anyone , we talked people down.
I'm a Democrat , own four pistols one rifle and one shotgun ( no assault rifles)
and no one is taking them away.
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I find it funnny the people who say arming teachers will make the problem worse are the same who advocate putting an aemed cop in the school....
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I think spending time with your kids will save a thousand spankings. Providing a positive role model lets them know what the correct way to act is versus the 'ape' mentality they might learn from the masses (I notice kids aspire to the lowest common denominator).
Sitting around the table for half an hour after a family meal, which we try for daily, lets kids discuss their days and provides a time for parents to provide guidance and reassurance. Feedback about ways they handled situations and problems helps them figure out the socially acceptable ways they should act in difficult situations.
I'm very proud of how my kids are turning out and also how my son is already showing sheepdog qualities.
We also make the effort not to be helicopter parents...let them learn for themselves and be sure to help them up after a fall. I think it leads to strong and confident adults... the kind that tend to become sheepdogs.
+1 We have done the same thing with our three children. Our 21 year old son is now a certified police officer who approuches his job with a true servant/protector attitude. His captain has told us that our son is one of the most level headed officers he has and he wishes more were like him. Yea, I'm a proud dad.
My 18 year old daughter is in collage to be a band teacher. She loves seeing the joy music brings to kids learning an instrument. Yep, proud of her too.
Our youngest is 14 and she hasn't decided what she wants to do. Probably a teacher if I had to guess.
For the last ten years my second job has been a youth leader/youth pastor. I have seen so many examples of absentee parenting and what it does to the children. I can tell you from experience that being involved in your kids lives and being the parent first and not the best friend always makes a better home life and outcome for the kids. JMHO.
And yes, I taught all my kids to shoot. The older two love to shoot. The younger one has no use for it. Thats fine, but she knows how to handle a firearm and make it safe.
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I find it funnny the people who say arming teachers will make the problem worse are the same who advocate putting an aemed cop in the school....
They have the mistaken believe that police are trained with some amazing frequency. Most officers fire their weapon only when they need to re-qualify. Sometimes that's not even every year.
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(a fair share owned by me :D).
Snibbor, I don't think you understand. I own a lot of guns. Probably what some libs would call an arsena. But I'm still not even close to my fair share. Wife thinks differently.
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Jim, you have more to offer on this than any of the rest of us, as you're in the classroom daily (I assume). I'd really like to hear any other thoughts you have on this, what you've had to come to grips with internally knowing you are "the front line" etc... and TIA - - steve
Well, it's pretty simple really. If there is someone harming the kids I will continue to attack the harmer until one of us is neutralized. (From what I've read about Sandy Hook, it's the action the Principal took until she was shot.) Our wonderful lawmakers will have me, literally, going to a gun fight with a broom stick.
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Snibbor, I don't think you understand. I own a lot of guns. Probably what some libs would call an arsena. But I'm still not even close to my fair share. Wife thinks differently.
oh don't misunderstand me, guns are like money, there's no such thing having too many
already planning my next purchase, while we still can.........
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You don't want the trained teachers carrying openly. You need for them to have the element of surprise against any would be attacker. For a would be attacker that might know the school (or whatever the target may be), you would not want him or her to know who is carrying and to look for. Eventhough as crazy as these people that carry out these acts are, in my mind they have one goal and are not real organized. They set out to accomplish what they may think is right and that is it. So having that element of surprise of having concealed carrying faculty is much better than open carry or even a uniformed security or resource officer.
I don’t agree. I believe the deterrent of visible weapon is much more important than the “surprise”. Prevention rather than reaction.
30 plus years ago in a small town in northern Wisconsin my buddies and I were allowed carry our 22’s & shotguns into the school and store them in our lockers (cased an unloaded of course) so we could hit the neighboring woods after school and chase rabbits, squirrels, and grouse. Some of them brought them on the school bus and refinished their stocks in shop class. There was never an incident, never a shot fired. . .ever! We were raised in an era where we learned how to safely handle guns at a young age and we learned through experience all too well the damage these tools could do.
You can’t carry a nail clipper into a school these days. What has changed since then? I don’t have the answer, but I can say for certain we did respect our teachers, parents and all other adults. For every pound of respect there’s an ounce of fear. My Father never laid a hand on me, he didn’t have to. . .he was a man, I was a boy and I knew it. Too many Dads want to be their kids’ buddies these days which is a big difference than being their Fathers. So I say Man Up and get your kids out in the woods because as the bumper sticker said, “Little boys that hunt fish and camp don’t grow up to rob old ladies”.
Great posts everyone and hey we’re all not going to agree on a solution(s) guns/no guns, spanking/no spanking etc. but it’s encouraging to see we’re not jaded to the violence and have the need to speak up if for no other reason to try make sense out of something the is incomprehensible and to heal our own sorrows cause by this horrible act.
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I don’t agree. I believe the deterrent of visible weapon is much more important than the “surprise”. Prevention rather than reaction.
The reason I say that they should carry hidden and have the element of surprise is because the majority of these people that carry out these acts are crazy. They are so crazy that in my mind they don't care if there is the visible deterrent of weapons. Do you really think the sh^thead in Connecticut would have cared if there was an armed guard? Nope because he was nuts. He had one thing on his mind and that was carrying out his senseless act no matter what. He knew the school somewhat and had he known that there was weapons and where they were, would he have been gunning for them first. Possibly. We don't know. But lets say the nurse (I believe) who said he walked in, looked at her as she dove under the desk, and then turned and walked away had been carrying, she could have possibly stopped the threat at the very start of it. That is why I think it should be concealed. 4 or 5 teachers, lunch ladies, janitors or whoever trained in each school to be able to respond the best they can until authorities can get there. If I were an employee at a school, I woudl be more than willing to pay for my own training and school approved weapon to be one of the carrying members. Especially when I think about what is at stake.
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Zak - sorry, I disagree that this coward would have done the same thing if he knew there were openly carried guns there Let me point this out - have you ever heard of one of these loons going to a shooting range and taking on the shooters there? No. Why? Because he knows his mayhem is going to be addressed rapidly.
I do agree concealed carry is the way to go in schools. "out of sight, out of mind" for the students and faculty, and a shooter has no idea who will engage him - EVERYONE could be the threat to him, not just the OCer.
Let's keep in mind one thing we've seen with aLL of these shootings - mentall Ill, but INTELLIGENT. That means they can really think through these attacks, and plan for their best "success" . Getting shot early on in your rampage doesn't make you a very successful mass murderer, and these guys are intelligent enough to see that. THAT's why they go to "gun free zones".
We need to get inside their twisted brains - to beat your enemy, you must understand him. Steve
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As an 8 time participant in the Highpower Rifle National Championships at Camp Perry, Ohio, I had some pictures on my wall of the events. Several people without that background actually asked "didn't you feel unsafe around all those guns!" My reply, why would I? I am shoulder to shoulder with 1400 of the finest marksmen that the military, prior military, law enforcement and law abiding civilian ranks can offer. Anything short of an invasion by a foregin country would simply be a minor delay. And that invading army better have 10 to one advantage if they want a chance.
One lady asked what if one of the participants decided to go crazy? My answer "we would over power him and split up his gear".
No problem!
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Zak - sorry, I disagree that this coward would have done the same thing if he knew there were openly carried guns there Let me point this out - have you ever heard of one of these loons going to a shooting range and taking on the shooters there? No. Why? Because he knows his mayhem is going to be addressed rapidly.
Steve,
I realize that this is only one example, but it also proves that neither you or I know what these nutjobs will do. And I am sure there were armed personnel on the base.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-officer-goes-on-killing-spree-at-army-base-1815729.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-officer-goes-on-killing-spree-at-army-base-1815729.html)
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Steve,
I realize that this is only one example, but it also proves that neither you or I know what these nutjobs will do. And I am sure there were armed personnel on the base.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-officer-goes-on-killing-spree-at-army-base-1815729.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-officer-goes-on-killing-spree-at-army-base-1815729.html)
Actually army bases are gun free zones. Neither civilians or solders are allowed to carry on base.
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I stand corrected. But I still believe that you cant say for sure what any of these nutjobs will do.
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Steve,
I realize that this is only one example, but it also proves that neither you or I know what these nutjobs will do. And I am sure there were armed personnel on the base.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-officer-goes-on-killing-spree-at-army-base-1815729.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-officer-goes-on-killing-spree-at-army-base-1815729.html)
Zak - the link wouldn't open for me, but if you're talking about Fr hood, it's perfect example of my point. Everyone there was disarmed. Actually a female plolice officer stopped the carnage.
and while we can't say for sure what a nut will do, don't separate intelligence from crazy. In other words, you can be a really smart nut. You work through all the obstacles and become very successful in your evil plan. Steve
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Leo, like you, I participated in the matches at Perry for over 15 years, 1400 shooters, every day for over 2 weeks with evil rifles and the only injury ever was when a gust of wind blew the railing off of the steps to the pits and hit a volunteer. We can talk and write about what we'd do when really in reality, we won't know what we'd do until it actually happens to us. Thats not a slight to anyone. When I'm asked what I'm afraid of because I carry a gun, I say carrying a gun makes me unafraid.
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Actually army bases are gun free zones. Neither civilians or solders are allowed to carry on base.
Perfect point. A well trained, unarmed force slaughtered by one killer/terrorist/nut job. How many lives were saved in Klackamas, how many could have been saved here. An armed society is a polite society.
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An armed society doesn't have to be polite. 8)
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How would you figure? The decline of civility started when they outlawed dueling. People act much more reasonably when they fear the reprisal from bad behavior.
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Exactly. An armed society doesn't have to be polite. It chooses to be polite.
An unarmed society has to be polite.
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I think everyone would be very polite if they anticipated even 50% of people were packing.
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Exactly. An armed society doesn't have to be polite. It chooses to be polite.
An unarmed society has to be polite.
Would you please explain this a little more thoroughly. I'd like to understand EXACTLY what you mean.
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There is no ambiguity here. I'm not sure what is unclear.
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I may be missing something here, but it would appear to me that the reverse is true:
If you think there is a likelihood that the person you're talking to might be armed, you pretty much have to be polite if you don't want to run the risk of your ass being shot off.
If nobody is armed, the worse that can happen is a fist fight, and even then only if both parties are blind drunk.
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If nobody is armed, the worse that can happen is a fist fight, and even then only if both parties are blind drunk.
AHH, having worked in prisons for a few years as a young man, I can tell you that no inmates / convicts had firearms, and there were very few fist fights. Stabbings, bludgeonings, etc were common, but no fist fights.
Trust me, the one dominating factor of man is that given adversity, he'll adapt and overcome. Take away guns, and he'll go to knives. Don't believe me? Google "school knife attacks in China" --- On the same day Sandy Hook happened an idiot attacked and stabbed 23 kids in a school in China. This is a more common occurence than mass shootings are here. Steve
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Everybody seems to think that being armed will solve the problem - shooters will be deterred. Wrong! They will figure it out. The REAL problem is society. The culture is sick. That is what has to be addressed. Mental illness, poverty, racism, religion. Fix it. No, I have no idea how. Not that smart!
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Not sure what there is to figure out. Shooters will be deterred. Look at the Portland shooter. But you are right the root of the problem also needs address.
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AHH, having worked in prisons for a few years as a young man, I can tell you that no inmates / convicts had firearms, and there were very few fist fights. Stabbings, bludgeonings, etc were common, but no fist fights.
Trust me, the one dominating factor of man is that given adversity, he'll adapt and overcome. Take away guns, and he'll go to knives. Don't believe me? Google "school knife attacks in China" --- On the same day Sandy Hook happened an idiot attacked and stabbed 23 kids in a school in China. This is a more common occurence than mass shootings are here. Steve
I do get your point, Steve. I dearly hope that we have not yet sunk to the level that somebody in this country would do that.
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I have finally accepted that I have been wrong. 2 + 2 in fact does equal 5.
I hope our legislators hurry up and pass laws prohibiting the creation and use of homemade bombs.
Oh wait, there was that Tim McVey guy. Well, maybe they can pass some laws prohibiting the hijacking of aircraft. No, I seem to recall something about a 9/11 issue a few years ago.
Well, no matter, I am sure banning ARs and high capacity magazines will in fact ensure that no more mass killings occur. Yeah, it will work. So, who has the magic wand that will make the 300 million guns already in the country disappear. What about the fact the Ct shooter basically stole the weapons he used, as did the recent shooter in Oregon. Yup, pass those laws and everything will be all better. Everyone head to the closest sand dunes and insert head.
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Everybody seems to think that being armed will solve the problem - shooters will be deterred. Wrong! They will figure it out. The REAL problem is society. The culture is sick. That is what has to be addressed. Mental illness, poverty, racism, religion. Fix it. No, I have no idea how. Not that smart!
I removed my first response to this, and want to write up something else...
I agree that mental illness and other problems have to be addressed - there is no question about that. But I'm afraid that this would have to be covered by ... shudder ... a government funded health care system. You simply couldn't expect parents of a mentally ill person to foot the bill alone; that is completely unrealistic.
What does the team think about this ?
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...Well, no matter, I am sure banning ARs and high capacity magazines will in fact ensure that no more mass killings occur. Yeah, it will work. So, who has the magic wand that will make the 300 million guns already in the country disappear. What about the fact the Ct shooter basically stole the weapons he used, as did the recent shooter in Oregon. Yup, pass those laws and everything will be all better. Everyone head to the closest sand dunes and insert head.
The issue isn't as simple as that, Snibbor, I'm sure most of us understand that.
What is necessary is a rebuilding of culture. We have to accept - as an entire country - the responsibility of dealing with mental illness and social failures. It sure ain't gonna be easy, but it sure beats sitting around and do nothing.
But here's the real reason for my post. I was thinking a lot about the wolves/sheepdogs/sheep metaphor, and believe there is something very powerful in it. I'd like to invite all of your thoughts on an idea ...
We have volunteer fire departments with remarkable individuals who put their lives at stake (I salute them); why not a structure for the defense of schools?
What about a nationwide matrix of local volunteer defense forces, populated with properly trained, armed people who live in close proximity to schools? An emergency response communication system could be put in place to trigger telephone calls to the response team in the event of an incident. The responders would know each other, the school staff, and the layout of the schools they protect, and would be led in any intervention by a trained, qualified person, such as an ex cop, an off-duty police officer, ex-military, or some other person of high level of training (similar in concept to a fire-chief).
I honestly don't believe arming school staff would be effective, but having a group of trained defense volunteers immediately to hand would enable our communities to provide a faster and more powerful response than police in many cases.
Here's part of my rationale:
1. We send our children to schools, to be in the care of the school system as deputies for us parents. In effect, the school is an extension of the homes of all the children in the classroom. If we accept this definition, then defense of the classroom is a logical extension of defense of the home, and the laws applicable to lethal use of firearms would apply.
2. A school defense militia would, in many cases, be able to respond faster than local police, and in all cases in far greater strength and with greater tactical awareness. If what some of you are claiming - that armed defenders would be a real defense - then such a response team would be effective at deterring a greater number of these attacks.
Is this a crazy idea? What do y'all think? I'm not saying I totally agree with this idea, but I want to foster discussion and brainstorm ideas. Please feel free to criticize my idea. It's OK to call the idea crazy, just don't make it personal :-)
And just for the record, I confess I am a gun-hating liberal, but I don't claim to be right or have all the answers, and I really do respect opinions other than my own, as long as they are well thought out.
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But here's the real reason for my post. I was thinking a lot about the wolves/sheepdogs/sheep metaphor, and believe there is something very powerful in it. I'd like to invite all of your thoughts on an idea ...
We have volunteer fire departments with remarkable individuals who put their lives at stake (I salute them); why not a structure for the defense of schools?
What about a nationwide matrix of local volunteer defense forces, populated with properly trained, armed people who live in close proximity to schools? An emergency response communication system could be put in place to trigger telephone calls to the response team in the event of an incident. The responders would know each other, the school staff, and the layout of the schools they protect, and would be led in any intervention by a trained, qualified person, such as an ex cop, an off-duty police officer, ex-military, or some other person of high level of training (similar in concept to a fire-chief).
I honestly don't believe arming school staff would be effective, but having a group of trained defense volunteers immediately to hand would enable our communities to provide a faster and more powerful response than police in many cases.
I don't think it would work any better than the local police. Look at the Ct shooter. I have no idea of teh timeline, but I see reports of this all happening in 2 minutes or 5 minutes, or right around that range. A group of individuals most likely would not have gotten there any faster than the police in my mind. To me still teh quickest response of any kind would still be armed faculty. They are there when it starts and may have the opportunity to end it before any or before to much damage is done. And all before any responders can arrive. Like I said, I have no idea of the timeline other than all the things we all see reported, but it was over with pretty quickly. I am still all for training and arming the faculty.
My son started Kindergarten in one of our county schools last year. We moved last April and he is now in 1st grade in another school in the same county along with my daughter in Kindergarten. The school he attended last year was pretty good about security and you had to be buzzed in and you walked straight into the office and they pretty much wanted your full identity and lifes story revealed before going any further. Even after I had been volunteering every week for the entire year I had to go through it. I hated it. I felt like I was volunteering in a prison. At the new school, I walk right through the front door and wave at the ladies in the office and head down the hallway. I love it. I feel so much more of a feeling of belonging to the school family. They even had a questionaire for the parents asking them if they wanted more secure measures taken. Guess what? The parents said no and that they loved it the way that it is. And it should be that way. I just can't believe it has come to the point that the kids and parents of school aged children have to feel like the schools need to be locked down constantly and the things parents must go through at their own community schools. They are now going to put a cop in every school in our county, but I hope that as far as my kids school goes, other than the deputy (and maybe some armed faculty), it stays the same. I know things happen but at the same time, my kids are not in prison or an institution. They are there to learn and grow. Not to fear the constant threat of something happening due to being locked down every day. And last year I did get the questions like daddy why are all the doors locked all the time or why do you have to go to the office and sign in on the computer and put your finger on it (yes fingerprinting). Those questions from a Kindergartner. So yes they know and notice more than we give them credit for most of the time. I don't have that now at the new school.
Sorry for my rant. I just honestly wonder sometimes if I made a mistake even having kids now. I love them more than anything in this world, but I wonder if bringing them into this ever worsening world was a good idea.
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I don't think the CT shooter waited to be 'buzzed in'.
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I don't think the CT shooter waited to be 'buzzed in'.
Never said he did!
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Just pointing out that existing security measures are inadequate for a determined individual. I don't know what the answer is short of, as you stated,turning the schools into maximum security prisons.
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Doesn't anyone else remember that an entire generation of class struggle in Ireland was done without hardly any guns at all? It was on TV every night while we were growing up. Bombings, fires and booby traps did massive collateral damage and loss of huge numbers of human lives. From the sounds of it the nutjob in Connecticut was plenty bright enough to have leveled the entire building if he wanted.
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Just pointing out that existing security measures are inadequate for a determined individual. I don't know what the answer is short of, as you stated,turning the schools into maximum security prisons.
They are inadequate so why have them. And as I stated, it is not fair that our children even have to be subjected to feeling like they are in a prison while at school. And I am happy that my kid's school does not employ most of these things. Both my kids and I feel less shut out. Some of these measures make the parents not want to become involved as much in teh schools and that certainly does not help grow better and less crazy adults as mentioned in this thread previously. I spend as much time with my kids at home and as much time in the school as I can so my kids (and other kids) see that parents do care and want to be there to help them. No better joy than going to the school and having these kids run up and hug you and talk to you. They want to tell you everything about their lives. And then when you see them in town somewhere and they come running up and hug you and say hi. Their parents might be a little weirded out at first, but then once you explain how you know them, the parents are appreciative of the things you do. At least here where I live. We also don't have much crime at all here and very rarely any violent crime. Not that it couldn't happen.
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Doesn't anyone else remember that an entire generation of class struggle in Ireland was done without hardly any guns at all? It was on TV every night while we were growing up. Bombings, fires and booby traps did massive collateral damage and loss of huge numbers of human lives. From the sounds of it the nutjob in Connecticut was plenty bright enough to have leveled the entire building if he wanted.
Bath School disaster
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bath School disaster
Bath Consolidated School before the bombing
Location Bath Township, Clinton County, Michigan, USA
Date May 18, 1927
Target Bath Consolidated School, house, farm and wife
Attack type School bombing, mass murder, murder-suicide, suicide truck bombing, fire, uxoricide
Weapon(s) Dynamite, pyrotol, firebombs, club
Deaths 45 (38 children, 2 teachers, 4 other adults and the bomber)
Injured 58
Perpetrator Andrew P. Kehoe
Motive Revenge for defeat in local election; personal and financial stress
The state historic site marker placed on the site
The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults; at least 58 people were injured. The perpetrator first killed his wife, and committed suicide with his last explosion. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.
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Actually army bases are gun free zones. Neither civilians or solders are allowed to carry on base.
There once was a time when you, as a military guy, could carry your weapon on base, at least Army bases.
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Our Schools are not locked down like an institution. However, they do monitor who is coming and going by asking everyone to sign in at the office and wear a visiter badge while in the school. If a teacher or administrator finds you in the school without a badge, you are politly asked to go to the office and sign in and get one. Everyone knows the policy and understands it is just the school trying to watch out for our children without going overboard on security. We also have School Resorce Officers assigned from the city police force. Some dress down a little, some wear the uniform, but they all have their duty weapon in plain site. They just hang out and talk to the kids. Once a year they teach the anti drug program. It's the same officer every day all year. The kids love them.
Some of our schools also use the Watch Dog program. It's just dad's who volunteer a day in the school to do whatever. They walk the halls, help in a class room, play with the kids at recess, just be there and be a role model. They back ground check every volunteer. You don't pass, you don't get to participate.
So how about we have a program like this of concealed carry licensed dad's who are pre-screened, trained, and under the leadership of the resorce officer? Just throwin out an idea.
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Some of our schools also use the Watch Dog program. It's just dad's who volunteer a day in the school to do whatever. They walk the halls, help in a class room, play with the kids at recess, just be there and be a role model. They back ground check every volunteer. You don't pass, you don't get to participate.
So how about we have a program like this of concealed carry licensed dad's who are pre-screened, trained, and under the leadership of the resorce officer? Just throwin out an idea.
I like both the Watch Dog program and the idea of concealed carry parents. It does become a liability for the schools, but with the proper screening and training, I like it. Being a dad that already volunteers quite a bit at the elementary school, I am going to check out the watch dog program as well and see if maybe they can try and start that in my kid's school.
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Here ya go. ;D
http://www.fathers.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=60 (http://www.fathers.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=60)
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School stabbing in China. Read the similarities to Sandy Hook. Just like Jim De hunter said, chasing the attacker from the school with brooms http://news.findlaw.com/apnews-lp/b513f5459ae043499f46f189218bad09 (http://news.findlaw.com/apnews-lp/b513f5459ae043499f46f189218bad09) Steve
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Here ya go. ;D
http://www.fathers.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=60 (http://www.fathers.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=60)
Thanks. I have already sent an email with the link and some comments to the schools pricipal who I know very well. I will also see her tomorrow when I go to the school. We will see what I can work out.
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Just a comment regarding emergency responder response time:
Last summer I had a "cardiac issue" while working in my yard. I used my cell phone to call 911 (thought it was a heart attack because it quit beating for about 5 seconds or so, and I nearly passed out, turned out to be something else). The local fire/EMT station is only 1.3 miles from my house. It took them over 10 minutes to get to me. That was OK, as it turned out I was in no immediate danger, they took real good care of me and they ended up taking me to the ER which is 35 miles away.
My point is: If I had needed a police response or armed assistance, it could have been twice that long at least, due to the locations of the local county sheriff's depot, unless an officer just happened to be on the road closer to my house. Us people out in the thulies need to be able to look out for ourselves in that respect. A LOT of $41T can come down on you in 10 minutes.
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Just a comment regarding emergency responder response time:
Last summer I had a "cardiac issue" while working in my yard. I used my cell phone to call 911 (thought it was a heart attack because it quit beating for about 5 seconds or so, and I nearly passed out, turned out to be something else). The local fire/EMT station is only 1.3 miles from my house. It took them over 10 minutes to get to me. That was OK, as it turned out I was in no immediate danger, they took real good care of me and they ended up taking me to the ER which is 35 miles away.
My point is: If I had needed a police response or armed assistance, it could have been twice that long at least, due to the locations of the local county sheriff's depot, unless an officer just happened to be on the road closer to my house. Us people out in the thulies need to be able to look out for ourselves in that respect. A LOT of $41T can come down on you in 10 minutes.
+1. Living only about 45 miles outside of DC, we are still pretty country in my county. It is a large county with not many officers. If they happen to be at the southern end of the county, it would be a good 20 minutes plus before they could get to my place in the northern part of the county. And that is with them flying. It takes me about 40-45 minutes driving 5mph over the posted speed limit to get from one end to the other. And that is a 55mph main road.
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Someone mentioned the added liability. No doubt that someone in our litigious society would target armed teachers as a target for lawsuits. That said, there are already plenty of things in even public secondary schools that can be deadly. Having taught science I can tell you first hand that there are plenty of things in many classrooms that could be used as lethal weapons. There are toxic chemicals and scalpels in the closet of any good science teacher. Further, they often put these things out with the expressed intention of letting students handle them. We even encourage it. I mean one pissed off kid dissecting a frog could go ape and do all kinds of harm. Remember the 9-11 hijackers used what? box knives wasn't it?
How many kids could be murdered by one really pissed off school lunch lady?
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How many kids could be murdered by one really pissed off school lunch lady?
To hear my kids tell it, since the recent federal requirements for school lunches, they're being slowly poisoned by the lunch lady. :rotflmao: