Author Topic: I will not run away  (Read 17185 times)

Offline julianop

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2012, 08:29:32 PM »
I may be missing something here, but it would appear to me that the reverse is true:

If you think there is a likelihood that the person you're talking to might be armed, you pretty much have to be polite if you don't want to run the risk of your ass being shot off.

If nobody is armed, the worse that can happen is a fist fight, and even then only if both parties are blind drunk.

Julian.
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Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2012, 08:44:59 PM »


If nobody is armed, the worse that can happen is a fist fight, and even then only if both parties are blind drunk.

 AHH, having worked in prisons for a few years as a young man, I can tell you that no inmates / convicts had firearms, and there were very few fist fights. Stabbings, bludgeonings, etc were common, but no fist fights.

  Trust me, the one dominating factor of man is that given adversity, he'll adapt and overcome. Take away guns, and he'll go to knives. Don't believe me? Google "school knife attacks in China" --- On the same day Sandy Hook happened an idiot attacked and stabbed 23 kids in a school in China. This is a more common occurence than mass shootings are here.  Steve

Offline Gsun

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2012, 09:16:29 PM »
Everybody seems to think that being armed will solve the problem - shooters will be deterred. Wrong! They will figure it out. The REAL problem is society. The culture is sick. That is what has to be addressed. Mental illness, poverty, racism, religion. Fix it. No, I have no idea how. Not that smart!

Offline Necron99

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2012, 09:25:48 PM »
Not sure what there is to figure out.  Shooters will be deterred.  Look at the Portland shooter.  But you are right the root of the problem also needs address. 
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Offline julianop

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2012, 11:10:19 PM »
AHH, having worked in prisons for a few years as a young man, I can tell you that no inmates / convicts had firearms, and there were very few fist fights. Stabbings, bludgeonings, etc were common, but no fist fights.

  Trust me, the one dominating factor of man is that given adversity, he'll adapt and overcome. Take away guns, and he'll go to knives. Don't believe me? Google "school knife attacks in China" --- On the same day Sandy Hook happened an idiot attacked and stabbed 23 kids in a school in China. This is a more common occurence than mass shootings are here.  Steve

I do get your point, Steve. I dearly hope that we have not yet sunk to the level that somebody in this country would do that.

Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline Snibbor

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2012, 11:11:29 PM »
I have finally accepted that I have been wrong.  2 + 2 in fact does equal 5. 
I hope our legislators hurry up and pass laws prohibiting the creation and use of homemade bombs.
Oh wait, there was that Tim McVey guy.  Well, maybe they can pass some laws prohibiting the hijacking of aircraft.  No, I seem to recall something about a 9/11 issue a few years ago.
Well, no matter, I am sure banning ARs and high capacity magazines will in fact ensure that no more mass killings occur.  Yeah, it will work.  So, who has the magic wand that will make the 300 million guns already in the country disappear.  What about the fact the Ct shooter basically stole the weapons he used, as did the recent shooter in Oregon.  Yup, pass those laws and everything will be all better.  Everyone head to the closest sand dunes and insert head.

Offline julianop

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2012, 11:13:26 PM »
Everybody seems to think that being armed will solve the problem - shooters will be deterred. Wrong! They will figure it out. The REAL problem is society. The culture is sick. That is what has to be addressed. Mental illness, poverty, racism, religion. Fix it. No, I have no idea how. Not that smart!

I removed my first response to this, and want to write up something else...

I agree that mental illness and other problems have to be addressed - there is no question about that. But I'm afraid that this would have to be covered by ... shudder ... a government funded health care system. You simply couldn't expect parents of a mentally ill person to foot the bill alone; that is completely unrealistic.

What does the team think about this ?
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline julianop

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2012, 11:40:33 PM »

...Well, no matter, I am sure banning ARs and high capacity magazines will in fact ensure that no more mass killings occur.  Yeah, it will work.  So, who has the magic wand that will make the 300 million guns already in the country disappear.  What about the fact the Ct shooter basically stole the weapons he used, as did the recent shooter in Oregon.  Yup, pass those laws and everything will be all better.  Everyone head to the closest sand dunes and insert head.

The issue isn't as simple as that, Snibbor, I'm sure most of us understand that.

What is necessary is a rebuilding of culture. We have to accept - as an entire country - the responsibility of dealing with mental illness and social failures. It sure ain't gonna be easy, but it sure beats sitting around and do nothing.

But here's the real reason for my post.  I was thinking a lot about the wolves/sheepdogs/sheep metaphor, and believe there is something very powerful in it. I'd like to invite all of your thoughts on an idea ...

We have volunteer fire departments with remarkable individuals who put their lives at stake (I salute them); why not a structure for the defense of schools?

What about a nationwide matrix of local volunteer defense forces, populated with properly trained, armed people who live in close proximity to schools? An emergency response communication system could be put in place to trigger telephone calls to the response team in the event of an incident. The responders would know each other, the school staff, and the layout of the schools they protect, and would be led in any intervention by a trained, qualified person, such as an ex cop, an off-duty police officer, ex-military, or some other person of high level of training (similar in concept to a fire-chief).

I honestly don't believe arming school staff would be effective, but having a group of trained defense volunteers immediately to hand would  enable our communities to provide a faster and more powerful response than police in many cases.

Here's part of my rationale:

1. We send our children to schools, to be in the care of the school system as deputies for us parents. In effect, the school is an extension of the homes of all the children in the classroom. If we accept this definition, then defense of the classroom is a logical extension of defense of the home, and the laws applicable to lethal use of firearms would apply.

2. A school defense militia would, in many cases, be able to respond faster than local police, and in all cases in far greater strength and with greater tactical awareness. If what some of you are claiming - that armed defenders would be a real defense - then such a response team would be effective at deterring a greater number of these attacks.

Is this a crazy idea? What do y'all think? I'm not saying I totally agree with this idea, but I want to foster discussion and brainstorm ideas. Please feel free to criticize my idea. It's OK to call the idea crazy, just don't make it personal :-)

And just for the record, I confess I am a gun-hating liberal, but I don't claim to be right or have all the answers, and I really do respect opinions other than my own, as long as they are well thought out.
Julian.
Elk River, MN.
Seasonal Temporal Navigational Disorder - that inexplicable but wholly satisfying affliction that causes one to lose the ability to drive a motorcycle straight home after work in the summer months, despite the apparent ability to make the reverse journey that same morning.

Offline zsiska

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2012, 04:01:45 AM »

But here's the real reason for my post.  I was thinking a lot about the wolves/sheepdogs/sheep metaphor, and believe there is something very powerful in it. I'd like to invite all of your thoughts on an idea ...

We have volunteer fire departments with remarkable individuals who put their lives at stake (I salute them); why not a structure for the defense of schools?

What about a nationwide matrix of local volunteer defense forces, populated with properly trained, armed people who live in close proximity to schools? An emergency response communication system could be put in place to trigger telephone calls to the response team in the event of an incident. The responders would know each other, the school staff, and the layout of the schools they protect, and would be led in any intervention by a trained, qualified person, such as an ex cop, an off-duty police officer, ex-military, or some other person of high level of training (similar in concept to a fire-chief).

I honestly don't believe arming school staff would be effective, but having a group of trained defense volunteers immediately to hand would  enable our communities to provide a faster and more powerful response than police in many cases.


I don't think it would work any better than the local police.  Look at the Ct shooter.  I have no idea of teh timeline, but I see reports of this all happening in 2 minutes or 5 minutes, or right around that range.  A group of individuals most likely would not have gotten there any faster than the police in my mind.  To me still teh quickest response of any kind would still be armed faculty.  They are there when it starts and may have the opportunity to end it before any or before to much damage is done.  And all before any responders can arrive.  Like I said, I have no idea of the timeline other than all the things we all see reported, but it was over with pretty quickly.  I am still all for training and arming the faculty. 

My son started Kindergarten in one of our county schools last year.  We moved last April and he is now in 1st grade in another school in the same county along with my daughter in Kindergarten.  The school he attended last year was pretty good about security and you had to be buzzed in and you walked straight into the office and they pretty much wanted your full identity and lifes story revealed before going any further.  Even after I had been volunteering every week for the entire year I had to go through it.  I hated it.  I felt like I was volunteering in a prison. At the new school, I walk right through the front door and wave at the ladies in the office and head down the hallway.  I love it.  I feel so much more of a feeling of belonging to the school family.  They even had a questionaire for the parents asking them if they wanted more secure measures taken.  Guess what? The parents said no and that they loved it the way that it is.  And it should be that way.  I just can't believe it has come to the point that the kids and parents of school aged children have to feel like the schools need to be locked down constantly and the things parents must go through at their own community schools. They are now going to put a cop in every school in our county, but I hope that as far as my kids school goes, other than the deputy (and maybe some armed faculty), it stays the same.  I know things happen but at the same time, my kids are not in prison or an institution.  They are there to learn and grow.  Not to fear the constant threat of something happening due to being locked down every day.  And last year I did get the questions like daddy why are all the doors locked all the time or why do you have to go to the office and sign in on the computer and put your finger on it (yes fingerprinting).  Those questions from a Kindergartner.  So yes they know and notice more than we give them credit for most of the time.  I don't have that now at the new school.

Sorry for my rant.  I just honestly wonder sometimes if I made a mistake even having kids now.  I love them more than anything in this world, but I wonder if bringing them into this ever worsening world was a good idea.

Offline gPink

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2012, 04:22:05 AM »
I don't think the CT shooter waited to be 'buzzed in'.

Offline zsiska

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2012, 04:59:05 AM »
I don't think the CT shooter waited to be 'buzzed in'.

Never said he did!

Offline gPink

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2012, 05:31:49 AM »
Just pointing out that existing security measures are inadequate for a determined individual. I don't know what the answer is short of, as you stated,turning the schools into maximum security prisons.

Offline Leo

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2012, 05:42:26 AM »
Doesn't anyone else remember that an entire generation of class struggle in Ireland was done without hardly any guns at all?   It was on TV every night while we were growing up.   Bombings, fires and booby traps did massive collateral damage and loss of huge numbers of human lives.  From the sounds of it the nutjob in Connecticut was plenty bright enough to have leveled the entire building if he wanted.
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Offline zsiska

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2012, 05:43:24 AM »
Just pointing out that existing security measures are inadequate for a determined individual. I don't know what the answer is short of, as you stated,turning the schools into maximum security prisons.

They are inadequate so why have them.  And as I stated, it is not fair that our children even have to be subjected to feeling like they are in a prison while at school.  And I am happy that my kid's school does not employ most of these things.  Both my kids and I feel less shut out.  Some of these measures make the parents not want to become involved as much in teh schools and that certainly does not help grow better and less crazy adults as mentioned in this thread previously.  I spend as much time with my kids at home and as much time in the school as I can so my kids (and other kids) see that parents do care and want to be there to help them.  No better joy than going to the school and having these kids run up and hug you and talk to you.  They want to tell you everything about their lives. And then when you see them in town somewhere and they come running up and hug you and say hi. Their parents might be a little weirded out at first, but then once you explain how you know them, the parents are appreciative of the things you do.  At least here where I live.  We also don't have much crime at all here and very rarely any violent crime. Not that it couldn't happen.

Offline gPink

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2012, 05:45:07 AM »
Doesn't anyone else remember that an entire generation of class struggle in Ireland was done without hardly any guns at all?   It was on TV every night while we were growing up.   Bombings, fires and booby traps did massive collateral damage and loss of huge numbers of human lives.  From the sounds of it the nutjob in Connecticut was plenty bright enough to have leveled the entire building if he wanted.
Bath School disaster
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bath School disaster

Bath Consolidated School before the bombing
Location    Bath Township, Clinton County, Michigan, USA
Date    May 18, 1927
Target    Bath Consolidated School, house, farm and wife
Attack type    School bombing, mass murder, murder-suicide, suicide truck bombing, fire, uxoricide
Weapon(s)    Dynamite, pyrotol, firebombs, club
Deaths    45 (38 children, 2 teachers, 4 other adults and the bomber)
Injured    58
Perpetrator    Andrew P. Kehoe
Motive    Revenge for defeat in local election; personal and financial stress
The state historic site marker placed on the site

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults; at least 58 people were injured. The perpetrator first killed his wife, and committed suicide with his last explosion. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.

Offline timsatx

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2012, 06:12:47 AM »
Actually army bases are gun free zones. Neither civilians or solders are allowed to carry on base.


There once was a time when you, as a military guy, could carry your weapon on base, at least Army bases.

Offline midnightrider

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2012, 06:19:23 AM »
Our Schools are not locked down like an institution. However, they do monitor who is coming and going by asking everyone to sign in at the office and wear a visiter badge while in the school. If a teacher or administrator finds you in the school without a badge, you are politly asked to go to the office and sign in and get one. Everyone knows the policy and understands it is just the school trying to watch out for our children without going overboard on security. We also have School Resorce Officers assigned from the city police force. Some dress down a little, some wear the uniform, but they all have their duty weapon in plain site. They just hang out and talk to the kids. Once a year they teach the anti drug program. It's the same officer every day all year. The kids love them.

Some of our schools also use the Watch Dog program. It's just dad's who volunteer a day in the school to do whatever. They walk the halls, help in a class room, play with the kids at recess, just be there and be a role model. They back ground check every volunteer. You don't pass, you don't get to participate.

So how about we have a program like this of concealed carry licensed dad's who are pre-screened, trained, and under the leadership of the resorce officer? Just throwin out an idea.
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Offline zsiska

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2012, 06:27:26 AM »

Some of our schools also use the Watch Dog program. It's just dad's who volunteer a day in the school to do whatever. They walk the halls, help in a class room, play with the kids at recess, just be there and be a role model. They back ground check every volunteer. You don't pass, you don't get to participate.

So how about we have a program like this of concealed carry licensed dad's who are pre-screened, trained, and under the leadership of the resorce officer? Just throwin out an idea.

I like both the Watch Dog program and the idea of concealed carry parents.  It does become a liability for the schools, but with the proper screening and training, I like it.  Being a dad that already volunteers quite a bit at the elementary school, I am going to check out the watch dog program as well and see if maybe they can try and start that in my kid's school.

Offline midnightrider

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: I will not run away
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2012, 07:44:25 AM »
School stabbing in China. Read the similarities to Sandy Hook. Just like Jim De hunter said, chasing the attacker from the school with brooms  http://news.findlaw.com/apnews-lp/b513f5459ae043499f46f189218bad09 Steve