Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Ivan_ipp on February 18, 2018, 05:02:23 AM
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Folks,
Not even the magazines have given you these tests and a window to see this information.
The first chart is full camshaft advance vs. full camshaft retard... (the 2 extremes of the VVT actuator)
The second chart shows the same 2 runs with my programming added to contrast the two extremes... (my cam timing)
The third chart shows the gains that I achieved by adjusting the VVT.
Obviously, proper cam timing is essential to peak performance, but having this variable makes the best of both worlds... especially when I can adjust the settings to make the best spread of the power at all rpms.
I chose to use my tuned file for these tests because it shows the effects better at the extremes and also with the raised rev-limiter.
VVT works by throttle position vs. rpm on this bike
See the attached stock ECU table... (resolution redacted of course)
There are others that control it's function too, but this one shows the basic programming.
Knowing how this system functions makes it easy to understand how a botched valve adjustment can lead to a blown engine.
Example;
Mechanic installs C14 intake cam one tooth advanced by accident.... under light to moderate throttle he would notice nothing wrong and could use the bike indefinitely like this as long as he never gives more than 50% or more throttle.....
Once the throttle is opened more than the amount needed to push the cam into full advance position, there would be mechanical valve to piston contact and failure.
Once there are broken parts in the cylinder destroying things and jamming things cam(s) valves ....etc... and cannot rotate due to mechanical interference, the weakest link will give in.... at high rpm, all kinds of things will shear off and get destroyed.
The key here is that there are 2 of these failures that are documented here on this board and also on COG and the common link is that they both failed after valve adjustment. One failed immediately.....
The other one took longer, I suspect due to gentle riding habits.
One was due to his own mistake while adjusting his own valves.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22436.msg278038#msg278038 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22436.msg278038#msg278038)
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/died-and-won't-start/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/died-and-won't-start/)
The other paid a mechanic to do the valve adjustment...
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2009-c14-went-into-limp-mode-last-night/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2009-c14-went-into-limp-mode-last-night/)
Follow up here:
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/found!!!-nybiomed's-'09-nonrunning-issue-has-been-determined!!!/ (http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/found!!!-nybiomed's-'09-nonrunning-issue-has-been-determined!!!/)
Horrible story for both of them.... :(
Thanks,
Ivan
Ive added another page to my website that has all this info on it as well for everyone:
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_vvt.htm
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Interesting information. In reviewing your dyno charts, with your pre - selected area of 3000 rpm, I see you show a gain of 15# TQ @ 3000 rpm.
Here's another dyno chart (mine), using stock vvt timing, that also shows a 15# TQ @ 3000 rpm gain. Yes, it had a slip on... but as your own charts show at 3000 rpm the slip on runs the same as stock at 3000 rpm, so no net gain at that rpm.
15# TQ @3000 rpm gain is impressive to say the least, no matter who the tuner is.
Steve
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I feel silly about the other thread now, all my speculation about how VVT works. But, hey, it led to this, which is great.
I love seeing the VVT table- is that a stock table?? I wouldn't have expected any cam advance at such low RPM (1200!) even with tons of throttle. Yes, it is only a tiny, tiny bit, but still- mind blown. There is 24 degrees to work with, it looks like at "normal" riding (maybe half throttle) at "normal" RPM ranges (maybe 3-5K) it is around 1-6 degrees. Much more than I would have predicted.
By the way, the manual implies that midway in the VVT pressure is "neutral", neither advanced nor retarded. Now I think that is another English nuance error. Midway, is half-way advanced, or 12 degrees. I suppose it depends on perspective.
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One was due to his own mistake while adjusting his own valves.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22436.msg278038#msg278038 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=22436.msg278038#msg278038)
Ivan, I saw your post on the other forum but was not certain you were referring to me. Thanks for your diagnosis, great to have some light shed on this failure. What confused me is how the having the intake cam out of phase resulted in the exhaust side damage?
EDIT: after posting the above I went and saw your reply to my post over there. A couple of questions. Would further dissambly help determine the exact cause. Also I have been wondering if a failed or improperly assemble tensioner could be the cause .
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Once you see how things work, it's just common sense how parts fail. ;)
If you pulled the head on the old motor, you probably would find at least one or more broken intake valve heads... once the head pops off, the stem can fall into the cylinder and will end up jamming into things... it's even possible for parts to migrate to another cylinder in extreme conditions when an engine tangles up it's parts.
Most likely the pieces of the intake valves got caught in the exhaust valves... got all smashed up by the pistons, got locked up and stopped the exhaust cam.... hence shearing off the bolts as the weakest link between the cam chain and the sprocket bolts.
Edit: 2/23/18, after some discussion with you, I do not think that this applies to you, your failure is due to something else.... disassembly of your cylinder head will give a lot more info in your case.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Many years ago (1999), I had customer's ZX9R blow it's motor on my dyno after I installed one of my jet kits...
The cause of it was the locator tab on one of the clamps that holds the carb to the head
see attached photo that I took from ebay today
One of the clamps popped off when I took the carbs off, and during the handling of the clamp when re-installing it onto the intake boot the locator tap popped off (weak spot weld) and fell into the #4 cylinder unknown to me at the time.
When I started the bike it was just quiet as a mouse... I revved it a few times and took it around the building to my dyno room at my old shop... rolled up onto the dyno, strapped it down.. got everything set up, and proceeded to make the pulls... on the 2nd pull it blew at 12000 rpm.
Apparently what happened was the little tab embedded itself in the piston crown... when it came out, it got caught in one of the exhaust valves, the head came off the valve and broke the other 3 valves in that cylinder... the head split... the valve head ended up in another cylinder... There was so much damage to the rods (bent) and the crank/clutch gear teeth were bent due to the force when the head split. What was most amazing, the cam chain didn't break !!
My insurance was very good about paying for the parts and labor at the time, and the customer was fixed up and running fine 3 weeks later... he wasn't even mad at me and is still a customer till this day.
That was the only direct experience with a blown motor that I have ever had... other than an Indian 2 stroke that broke a piston on a friends dirtbike when I was about 13.
Ivan
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I feel silly about the other thread now, all my speculation about how VVT works. But, hey, it led to this, which is great.
I love seeing the VVT table- is that a stock table?? I wouldn't have expected any cam advance at such low RPM (1200!) even with tons of throttle. Yes, it is only a tiny, tiny bit, but still- mind blown. There is 24 degrees to work with, it looks like at "normal" riding (maybe half throttle) at "normal" RPM ranges (maybe 3-5K) it is around 1-6 degrees. Much more than I would have predicted.
By the way, the manual implies that midway in the VVT pressure is "neutral", neither advanced nor retarded. Now I think that is another English nuance error. Midway, is half-way advanced, or 12 degrees. I suppose it depends on perspective.
Max,
Speculation can lead to lots of bad information, rumors and twisted 1/2 truths ;)
Yes, that's one of the stock tables..
Ivan
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Thanks for the detailed reply Ivan. I will pull the head win I get a chance.
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Lather,
The only other way that enough force could be put against your sprocket bolts to cause them to shear off would be if the cam seized in the head. (no initial valve contact)
The cause of this scenario happening would be from either mixing up the numbered cam caps, or one or more of their locating dowel pins being missing
(both will cause improper cam to cap clearance/alignment)
Improperly installed/damaged oil supply pipes/o-rings.
It's also entirely possible in your particular case if you used aftermarket shims when doing your valve adjustment on the exhaust side that don't fit as snug as the originals.... possibly it "spit a shim" and caused one of the exhaust valves to hang open and get destroyed to start the chain of destruction.
Ivan
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Lather,
The only other way that enough force could be put against your sprocket bolts to cause them to shear off would be if the cam seized in the head. (no initial valve contact)
The cause of this scenario happening would be from either mixing up the numbered cam caps, or one or more of their locating dowel pins being missing
(both will cause improper cam to cap clearance/alignment)
Improperly installed/damaged oil supply pipes/o-rings.
It's also entirely possible in your particular case if you used aftermarket shims when doing your valve adjustment on the exhaust side that don't fit as snug as the originals.... possibly it "spit a shim" and caused one of the exhaust valves to hang open and get destroyed to start the chain of destruction.
Ivan
I did use some aftermarket shims and also noticed some slight damage to a coupl oil pipe o-rings
As I mentioned at some point a couple of ex shims WERE beat up pretty bad. If spit shims are a known issue that seems to me to be a likely cause. Thanks for your comments
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Was the cam seized in the head?
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Just to butt in here for a second- the C-14 uses 'under bucket shims', I did not think it is even possible to 'spit' those, is it? Shim over buckets have a whole host of problems and can and do get dislodged but I though under bucket shims were immune from that? Plus there should be no appreciable wear on them as other than rotation, they should not ever actually move against either side (valve stem or inner bucket). ?? The shims fit quite radially snugly into the under side of the bucket so it would seem impossible for them to do anything unless the bucket separated from the valve stem by a lot, and I cannot imagine that happening unless a valve struck a piston and was already bent.
This is a question and please do correct me if this is not correct because I would really like to know.
Brian
Lather,
The only other way that enough force could be put against your sprocket bolts to cause them to shear off would be if the cam seized in the head. (no initial valve contact)
The cause of this scenario happening would be from either mixing up the numbered cam caps, or one or more of their locating dowel pins being missing
(both will cause improper cam to cap clearance/alignment)
Improperly installed/damaged oil supply pipes/o-rings.
It's also entirely possible in your particular case if you used aftermarket shims when doing your valve adjustment on the exhaust side that don't fit as snug as the originals.... possibly it "spit a shim" and caused one of the exhaust valves to hang open and get destroyed to start the chain of destruction.
Ivan
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If there is "looseness" in the circumferential fit of the shim, it can "rattle" around and damage the retainer... in a high rpm situation, it's possible for a loose fitting shim to climb out of it's seat and find it's way out of the retainer well.... The more clearance, the more chance there is.
I've seen it on some bikes during valve adjustment... (beat up retainers)
I've also seen it on bikes that were blown up by their owners for various reasons. (on top of the retainer)
I never use aftermarket shims for fear of this... I'm not saying that all shims besides OEM are bad... I just don't know other than what I have seen.
All of this applies to shim under bucket..
Ivan
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I've never seen any reference to the possibility of bending a cam during installation - which can happen. The cam needs to be placed in the saddle (journals) and when the caps are placed on the bolts are "walked" down evenly from one end of the cam to the other. Never just bolt a cap down, then move to the next and bolt it down. Bent cams will gall and wallow out the journal, thereby wrecking the head - and who knows how much turning resistance is involved, of course dependent on the run out. Steve
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Was the cam seized in the head?
No sir it was not and there were no signs on the bearing surfaces. Away from desktop now but should be able to find pictures tonlght if you are interested.
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I would prefer to see pics of the head when you remove it... otherwise there will be speculation.
Facts are best. ;)
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Working on adapting a non abs zx fork to mount abs sensor now but when thatsdone off with her head. And in reply to Steve one thing i am religious aboutis bolt tightening sequences.
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No sir it was not and there were no signs on the bearing surfaces. Away from desktop now but should be able to find pictures tonlght if you are interested.
Here's an easy to to see if you have bent valves. If the cam is out, lay a straight edge on the bearing saddles from one side of the head to the other side. A square, or a piece of pipe that rolls true would be fine. Then measure the clearance from each valve to the bottom edge of the straight edge. If you have any bent valves, you're going to have significantly more clearance than on non bent valves. Significant meaning more than .010" difference... more like .100" . this is because the high side of the valve is on the seat and holding the stem down.
If the cam is in the head and you can rotate it, do the same thing, check the clearance on the base circle. If it exceeds significantly the clearance that should be there, the valve is bent. Steve
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Working on adapting a non abs zx fork to mount abs sensor now but when thatsdone off with her head. And in reply to Steve one thing i am religious aboutis bolt tightening sequences.
It's surprising how many folks actually don't know that. You would have seen galling had a bent cam been the issue, I looked at your pics and didn't see any, but of course I can't see all the way across the saddles either. Though I think you stated there was no galling. Steve
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Just pull the head and take lots of pics... ;)
Also put all the intake valves in a cordless drill if they look ok.
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I do appreciate the help from you two pros. Will get head off soon and post pics.
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Lather, when you pull the head (some time in the future) and assuming you don't have the specialized valve spring compressor needed to disassemble a c-14 head, you can again do a "quick and dirty" test for bent valves by pouring some mineral spirits down the intake ports and check for leakage at the valve seats. . Some seepage would be normal due to carbon, but bent valves will just pour the fluid out.
It's amazing what can be done with a little ingenuity.
Steve
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Interesting. I have only used OEM shims, not on purpose but because I could get them fastest in every instance, and the fit between the shim and the <shim pocket> is too close, IMO for any of that to happen but I never thought about aftermarket shims being too small in diameter. Frankly, I would not have ever thought of it either because I think of them as only having one important dimension, and that is thickness; it never would have crossed my mind that anyone would make them too small in dia. Thanks for that info. Ivan!
Brian
If there is "looseness" in the circumferential fit of the shim, it can "rattle" around and damage the retainer... in a high rpm situation, it's possible for a loose fitting shim to climb out of it's seat and find it's way out of the retainer well.... The more clearance, the more chance there is.
I've seen it on some bikes during valve adjustment... (beat up retainers)
I've also seen it on bikes that were blown up by their owners for various reasons. (on top of the retainer)
I never use aftermarket shims for fear of this... I'm not saying that all shims besides OEM are bad... I just don't know other than what I have seen.
All of this applies to shim under bucket..
Ivan
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Brian,
If you look at the underside of the bucket, you'll see the protrusion that contacts the shim (I'm sure that you're very familiar)... think about it.. you know the bucket can rock slightly in it's bore and if the shim is looser than the original design..... I'm sure you can see it now. ;)
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Here are pictures I have of beat up ex valve shims. Note that one is an OEM and the other is aftermarket with the etched number.
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Here are pictures I have of beat up ex valve shims. Note that one is an OEM and the other is aftermarket with the etched number.
simple - valve bends, the head holds the stem down and that creates the clearance I mentioned before. Cam hits bucket, bucket bounces... so does shim. Steve
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How about with head off pour some type of liquid in combustion chamber, than if you have air compressor blow air thru port and see if you have bubbles.
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How about with head off pour some type of liquid in combustion chamber, than if you have air compressor blow air thru port and see if you have bubbles.
See reply 20 - air compressor not required. :doh:
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Here are pictures I have of beat up ex valve shims. Note that one is an OEM and the other is aftermarket with the etched number.
Lather,
That's crunched up pretty good.. cracked keepers, chipped up shims and retainers...
BTW, I no longer think that your failure was due to mistimed cams... you ran it for 500 miles with no issues and there was no seizure of the cams... this rules out missing dowels, mixed up cam caps, and oil pipe o-rings which are the causes of camshaft seizures.
I think it probably lost a shim for some reason and that started the chain of catastrophe... either through loose fit, or maybe a downshift that caused the engine to over-rev and cause a valve to float.
(You seem like an experienced rider so the downshift/floating valve theory is probably unlikely)
Measuring/comparing the circumference of the shims may shed some light or rule out.
(if they aren't too beat up)
I am curious to see the head though.
Ivan
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I would like to know more about the shims also. Makes me nervous as I got mine from Jakewilsons. I do have about 7500 miles on the adjustment it with many up to the redline runs so am hoping I am all right :-[
Wayne
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You would need to check the diameter of the shim set with a digital or dial caliper or a micrometer and compare it to the stock oem shim.
Hopefully they measure the same... within .001"
I can't give you a range that is acceptable because I don't know.
Ivan
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I've read a lot of bullHockey lately, and figure as people are analyzing why 2 peoples bikes had failures, I'll just toss this in here... because the same people read and can strain out what they desire from it...
so, regarding the top end failures related to recently, and strictly base on my opinion... here goes....
I'm all about sharing CORRECT and Accurate responses based on MY true knowledge of this bikes
mechanics, HAVING OWNED, and PHYSICALLY SERVICED this bike...
I take great exception to "speculative responses, generically given" based on some other bike, or
familiarity that is not DIRECTLY experinced by the person offering the advice, or speculation...
With that said, a lot of this is bogus... and I won't point fingers at "who says what", but I will set the bar
and say with my knowledge, and hands on "Inside this engine"... the following facts...
it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to install, and assemble and make engine "fire up", by installing the cam
retainer caps improperly, fact is, they cannot be installed in any manner other than correct, due to the
hollow pilot dowel locations, and the cam sensor location.
the caps are numbered... and, if you examine the picture I am sharing here, directly from the manual, even someone who has never seen the "inside" of this engine, can clearly see this...
the dowel locations in caps and head, are shown as "A", pretty clear...
and the nomenclature, and physical attributes of each cam cap, are unique to their positions.
again,
It is also virtually impossible to "incorrectly" install (mix up which is which) on the oil supply pipes
locations.. simply said, it can't be assembled "wrong" and/or even get the cover on.
look closely at the diagram. Also the configuration of the valve cover casting itself, relegates it impossible to incorrectly assemble it.
As for "spitting out" a shim...? maybe if your shims were at the thinnest end of the spectrum of those
installed, still within clearance... (meaning clearance is correct, but the shims were the thinnest ones
made for installation...like an 1.750mmThick / Number Mark –25, which hopefully will never be see in
"might" get spit out, if the engine hit like 13K rpm, it may jump out of the recess in the retainer.. but then
again, maybe a "max" sized one (like a #75 shim, @ 2.750mm thk), with the correct clearance, could
also, possibly due to it's mass... but because of the diameter? No way... all of these shims, aftermarket
and OEM, as a standard, are very strictly controlled as to outside diameter, and it's relationship to the recess in the
retainer cap. .002", ain't gonna matter...hell, I'd go as far as saying it ain't shifting out of "centralized position even if it was .010" less in Outside diameter.. because that means it can only "shift" to oneside, half that value......open up the engine, remove the cams, pop the bucket out, and put your finger on the OEM shim... and wiggle it... you will see the OEM clearance... it isn't a tight fit by any realm.
I have seen instances in my past, building drag bike Kaws, where after valve regrinds the end of the
stem was not dressed down in conjunction, which allowed the stem to contact the "bucket" (on shim
over bucket KZ engines, Z1's to be specific), which caused the stem retaining collet halves to self eject,
and drop a valve, grenading a top end.. I've never seen a spit out shim on a shim over bucket spit out from anything other than that, or a valve that failed prior, hell those shims sat about 1/8" into a recess.. and even with soft valve springs, you had to work to spit one... I have a '78 Kz in my garage still, and tho it has a lot of work don by my, including some robust valve springs, I could never imagine spitting one out.
But the C14 I find quite bulletproof in it's assembly as seen, and without being a highly modified and poorly done followup. In otherwords, an engine that is in 99.9999% OF THOSE ON THE STREET.
I cannot rule out a "poorly manufactured" valve, with regard to it's groove that retains the keepers, or a
poorly manufactured keeper itself, as these parts are often "sintered powder metal" construction, and
they can fracture., or a piece of debris finding its way into that interface between the keepers and the
retainer, which again could cause a release.
I'm not subject to the "play nice or get kicked out" mentality here, so it's the only place I can currently dismay myths, and incorrect diatribe concerning these bikes, without being threatened by a "board".
keep it real.
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+1
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Hopefully they measure the same... within .0001"
Not to get confrontational here, but I hope that was a typo. (probably was)
It seems unlikely to me that there would be any tolerance anywhere on the whole bike that would be less than .001".
If there is, I doubt the diameter of the shims is where it is. Things usually start getting very expensive when size tolerances get more than (OK, less than) .0005".
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Not to get confrontational here, but I hope that was a typo. (probably was)
It seems unlikely to me that there would be any tolerance anywhere on the whole bike that would be less than .001".
If there is, I doubt the diameter of the shims is where it is. Things usually start getting very expensive when size tolerances get more than (OK, less than) .0005".
Damn smartphones and fat mechanic's fingers !!
Yes it's a typo Marty, thanks for noticing that.... Corrected.
Carburetor needles need to be held to .0001-.0002 at the base diameter... variances more than this will cause fueling differences that are quite noticeable. The same applies to needle jets. (emulsion tubes)
When measuring needle jet orifices with a pin gauge, differences of a 10'th or 2 will allow quite a bit of rocking if it's on the looser side. Obviously this isn't a carburetor needle jet, but when measuring the proper fit of a machined part so that there isn't excess clearance, there needs to be some type of standard.
(I don't know what the clearance is for valve shim/retainer)
Obviously, the aftermarket shim makers don't haphazardly put their parts to market without a machining standard... but sometimes mistakes are made and not caught during quality control. In the machining world, a whole batch can be bad if it isn't checked, or reported.
Improper clearance here may not even be the cause of Lather's engine sucking it's exhaust valves... but, more clues will be evident when he pulls the head.
Mixed up numbered cam caps by a seasoned mechanic are very unlikely, but a missing dowel pin from one of the caps will for sure cause an alignment/clearance problem and will eventually cause a seizure on the journal that is closest to it. I've seen this firsthand on many of the bikes that I have serviced in the last 35 years that had engine/valvetrain problems.
Ivan
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for waht it's worth I am an experienced rider with over half a million miles and 40+ track days. Experienced backyard mechanic too with 30 plus valve adjusts which is so maddening and why I am eager to determine the cause of failure. I already know it was my fault because that's what the wife says and she's never wrong ;)
Seriously, experienced or not I have been known to #uck up. Fortunately I am a better rider than a mechanic or i'd be dead by now.
Plan to pull the head soon. I'll also measure shims and report. Now, I gotta go ride.
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Mixed up numbered cam caps by a seasoned mechanic are very unlikely, but a missing dowel pin from one of the caps will for sure cause an alignment/clearance problem and will eventually cause a seizure on the journal that is closest to it. I've seen this firsthand on many of the bikes that I have serviced in the last 35 years that had engine/valvetrain problems.
Ivan
I'm not saying this is incorrect BUT the c-14 has very large cam caps that span over the cam and secures 2 journals. They are unique and cannot be mixed up. Each cap has 4 dowel pins, so even dropping one out would leave 3, and while not ideal, it think the triangulation would get the cap where it's supposed to go.
Now one thing that hasn't been addressed in Lathers case is if a dowel pin may have fallen out on reassembly. It happened to me on a customers bike . But I'm anal and expect crap like that to happen, so I stopped and fished around forever to find the dowel. The fact is that if there's anything like that loose and it can jump up and get in the reciprocating assy, really bad stuff is going to happen.
So Lather, are all the dowel pins accounted for?
Steve
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I can't answer that for certain right now. The cams and caps are stored at the moment. A large elm fell on the shop back in November and I had to store half my stuff so the workers could work. $15000 worth of damage. Repaired as of three weeks ago but I am still getting back to the normal level of clutter. But I think a stray dowel pin is high on my list of culprits.
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I can't answer that for certain right now. The cams and caps are stored at the moment. A large elm fell on the shop back in November and I had to store half my stuff so the workers could work. $15000 worth of damage. Repaired as of three weeks ago but I am still getting back to the normal level of clutter. But I think a stray dowel pin is high on my list of culprits.
If something found its way into the cam lobes and rotating parts, I'm sure there will be some evidence of it.
It will make sense in the end.
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I just love these detective shows, nothing like a
good who done it...er... I mean a good what done it.
The part I don't like is...I can't answer that for certain right now.
... when they end with "to be continued." :)
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I dug out my shims and measured some . ProX shims are .0005 smaller than the OEM according to my measurements.
This is an interesting mystery.
Wayne
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I dug out my shims and measured some . ProX shims are .0005 smaller than the OEM according to my measurements.
This is an interesting mystery.
Wayne
are you talking about the outside diameter, or the actual thickness' ?
just asking... I wouldn't fret the O.D. variations, nor do I really care as much about the thickness variations per se, as I always measure each and every shims thickness, and record it... and they DO differ sometimes, as much as .0003" which is substantial, thus my records, for usage and swap of positions where it may be a benefit, or a hindrance.
Looking back at my shim swap charts, using all KAWASAKI OEM shims, with markings on them... the odd measurements I recorded are thus...
4x shims marked #30, 3x were .0909" thk., ONE was .0907" thk.
4x shims marked #28, 3x were .0900" thk, ONE was .0898" thk.
6x shims marked #25, 4x were .0892" thk., ONE was .0891" thk, and ONE was .0889" thk.
now, mind you none of this was a deal breaker as far as I am concerned, as I measure everything, and also the thickness of the bucket's heads which can vary substantially also ( from .1053" to .1071"), , so it actually offered me some benefit when working to stack up "ideal" combinations...
so, if you think about it, the buckets can vary in a range of tolerance, which actually excedes the "range" of the .0020" span between what is considered as tight, or loose spec....
this is why when only addressing the shims, by numbers printed on them, most folks end up removing the cams 2, or even 3 times, in their "attempt" to get those magic "perfect max clearance zone" measurements.
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I measured all my shims as well. The "used" OEM shims that still had the numbers visible (the black pain on most had worn off) were off in a few instances. All of the hot cam and ProX shims were nearly spot on. I don't know wether shims wear with use or not. If not, Kawasaki's shims are not well controlled quality wise..
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I just love these detective shows, nothing like a good who done it...er... I mean a good what done it.
The part I don't like is...
... when they end with "to be continued." :)
I looked at the poor dead 09 today and counted only 9 dowel pins in the head. The plot thickens.... Now I have to fetch the cam caps out of storage and see if any dowels pins are in them.
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I measured all my shims as well. The "used" OEM shims that still had the numbers visible (the black pain on most had worn off) were off in a few instances. All of the hot cam and ProX shims were nearly spot on. I don't know wether shims wear with use or not. If not, Kawasaki's shims are not well controlled quality wise..
the shims themselves are extremely wear resistant, and not subject to any wear due to being hardened by a Carborizing process which is extremely robust on the outer surfaces.... the mating parts however, the retainer, and the actual bucket and it's ground "internal contact surface", are slightly softer, and could be subject to some wear, but still, unlikely to amount to anything measurable thru-out the life of the bike.
hopefully you find that ONE elusive dowel in the cam saddle... i await your findings...
Just asking in the meantime, was the missing dowel on the right side, or left???? ( lefthand side, cyl 1&2 cam caps have 2 each, righthand ones, cyl 3&4 have 3 each...)... :feedback:
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Any damage to the bores for the buckets or on the outside of them?
Any evidence of something that got jammed in the cam or buckets causing it to stop, or hold a valve open?
How many valves are damaged?
Are they all in the same cylinder?
Ivan
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Any damage to the bores for the buckets or on the outside of them?
Any evidence of something that got jammed in the cam or buckets causing it to stop, or hold a valve open?
How many valves are damaged?
Are they all in the same cylinder?
Ivan
?
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are you talking about the outside diameter, or the actual thickness' ?
I was talking outside diameter as I thought that was Ivans concern. I measured all of the shims I removed as well as the ones I installed. I still ended up taking the cams out again and redoing some. I had torqued to half spec and remeasured and all seemed good. After final torque things changed! Nice thing about doing your own work is you can afford to take your time.That and North Dakota winters are long.
As far as thickness all shims I measured were good.
Wayne
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The missing dowel pin is from the #2 cyl which is the cyl that the loose keepers came from. I can feel the valve stem in the #2 outboard, #2 inboard feels like something larger stuck in there. both #2 valves are what I call dropped, keepers let go. I think both #3 valves are bent. I don't see damage to the buckets or bores but can't see much of the bores without a mirror.
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Gotta find the cam cap to see if the dowel is actually missing... and pull the head.
You may be able to tilt the engine by removing all the motor mounts except the bottom one by the shock.
(If you feel ambitious :) )
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Got my stored parts out of storage. No sign of the tenth dowel pin.
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Folks,
Not even the magazines have given you these tests and a window to see this information.
Knowing how this system functions makes it easy to understand how a botched valve adjustment can lead to a blown engine.
Example;
Mechanic installs C14 intake cam one tooth advanced by accident.... under light to moderate throttle he would notice nothing wrong and could use the bike indefinitely like this as long as he never gives more than 50% or more throttle.....
Once the throttle is opened more than the amount needed to push the cam into full advance position, there would be mechanical valve to piston contact and failure.
Once there are broken parts in the cylinder destroying things and jamming things cam(s) valves ....etc... and cannot rotate due to mechanical interference, the weakest link will give in.... at high rpm, all kinds of things will shear off and get destroyed.
The key here is that there are 2 of these failures that are documented here on this board and also on COG and the common link is that they both failed after valve adjustment. One failed immediately.....
The other one took longer, I suspect due to gentle riding habits.
One was due to his own mistake while adjusting his own valves.
Ivan
HMMM.
Steve
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Tough to read through photos but it looks like the bottom / left bearing cap set, right cap specifically, is scored and may have had excessive journal pressure.
If the cam caps are aligned the way they go in the engine (though upside- down of course) then it would be cylinder #2, intake cam specifically that took the brunt of the pressure.
Just speculating based on one photo so do not take my comments with much weight.
Brian
Got my stored parts out of storage. No sign of the tenth dowel pin.
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The one I believe you are referring to is the left intake. What's showing in the pic seems more like burnishing than scoring to the eyeball up close. I am thinking what I feel stuck in the inboard #2 ex valve bore is the missing dowel pin.
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Since I have 0 chance actually getting my hands on this engine I'd sure like to see some Hi-Res photos. But since that's not going to happen either I'll just be happy to keep reading.
Any chance the cap was installed with "possibly a different shorter length bolt that doesn't bottom in the head and crushes/deforms the cam cap when tightened". As suggested by a "World Renowned" mechanic on the other forum ?
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Whenever a part uses different length bolt I punch them into a sheet of cardboard and label them. But if I remember correctly they are all same length. Would be happy to post high res pics.🧐
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Tough to read through photos but it looks like the bottom / left bearing cap set, right cap specifically, is scored and may have had excessive journal pressure.
If the cam caps are aligned the way they go in the engine (though upside- down of course) then it would be cylinder #2, intake cam specifically that took the brunt of the pressure.
Just speculating based on one photo so do not take my comments with much weight.
Brian
if you flip the cap over, it's installed position with the dowel pins in place, would make that 'questionable' saddle the one over cylinder #1 not #2... the dowel pins run along the rear face of the intakes cams, and the front face of the head on the exhaust cams...
oh, Deapsea was just interjecting a bit of tongue in cheek humor... about bolts.. :rotflmao:
also I don't see any real "evidence" of any catastrophic "seizure/galling" of any surface that would indicate a "seized" camshaft...
just sayin' ::)
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The one I believe you are referring to is the left intake. What's showing in the pic seems more like burnishing than scoring to the eyeball up close. I am thinking what I feel stuck in the inboard #2 ex valve bore is the missing dowel pin.
how did it manage to get on there, ? with the cam bucket sitting in place over the retainer and valve... ?
there's about .010" free clearance around that cam bucket.. :-X
I also don't see any clear and glaring evidence of anything, dowel pin included, bouncing around and smooshing under the free spaces of the cam saddle blocks adjacent to any lobes.. and I've seen a lot of destroyed top ends over the last 45 years.. :popcorn: :rotflmao:
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+1 MOB.
It is difficult to "Properly" torque an assembly when the bolts bottom and tighten against the bottom of the hole and not the intended parts. :-[
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how did it manage to get on there, ? with the cam bucket sitting in place over the retainer and valve... ?
there's about .010" free clearance around that cam bucket.. :-X
I also don't see any clear and glaring evidence of anything, dowel pin included, bouncing around and smooshing under the free spaces of the cam saddle blocks adjacent to any lobes.. and I've seen a lot of destroyed top ends over the last 45 years.. :popcorn: :rotflmao:
After thinking about it some more after posting that I realized it probably coudn't get in there. Feeling for it again last night it wasn't there any more, I must have loosened it and it fell out of reach. Anyway it probably was a keeper I was feeling.
Able to look at the camshafts and caps closely and in good light I feel confident the cams did not seize.
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Able to look at the camshafts and caps closely and in good light I feel confident the cams did not seize.
Seizure is actually welding the parts together. As such, you'll see aluminum actually stuck to the cam journal. The journal bore in the head would be oversized, with aluminum that had almost liquified from the head eeking it's way off the edges, so it would not have the sharp machined edges anymore. Seizing is very obvious and ugly, and you won't need a metallurgy degree to identify it. I looked at the pics of the caps too, there's some places light trash scored the journals, but no siezure. Steve
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I spoke to Mr Ivan today for a hour, He answered all my Questions. So my ECU is being Shipped Monday. Cutting out the Cat! Then my Bike will be complete! ;D