POLL: Should Brian (aka BDF) buy a new C14?

[B.D.F.]

Well, as you folks voted with an overwhelming clarity (and frankly much better than the US did as a whole less than two weeks ago perhaps  ) I guess I had no choice. Called on several out- of- state 2019 C-14s, new and got OTD pricing. Some were attractive but far away and of course that came with all the hassle of a non- native purchase including registration, a VIN check (PITA required under my home state's law), foreign title, etc. So I went to my local, favorite dealer and cut an acceptable deal on the new 2020 they had on the floor. Finally, I bought that pristine 2016 they had for sale.    Yeah, it was convoluted. Paid on the high side for it but not ridiculous and truly, it is immaculate. Has just over 6K miles on it, just enough to have a new set of Michelins on it so new they still have the vent posts on the sides of the tires. Older, retired guy bought it new at that dealer and they have serviced it since then. Also comes with the Kawasaki touring saddle, as well as the original in a box, and the Kawasaki color- matched top box. Paid $9,500 for it out- the- door, not including registration, title fees or tax. As I said, on the high side of the acceptable range but the bike is exemplary and I doubt I could find another in that condition, plus we both really like the color.

Rode it home about 15 miles. Runs great, smoother I think than my '08. Of course, nice bike and runs / rides as new but with 'real' tires on it.

Now looking forward to and dreading the farkling at the same time, and I keep remembering just how many farkles and mods. were done on my '08- this is gonna' take some time. I need both a low- fuel eliminator as a KiPass activation switch bypass right off but the putz that makes them is out of stock. 

[maxtog]

Congratulations!

[connie_rider]

Yahooo!
Congratulations..

I like the color. Is that Silver (Dammitt)?

Uhh/err.
Aren't you the Putz that makes them (who is out of stock)?
   

Ride safe, Ted

[gPink]

Thought there was a mail slot in the windshield.

[maxtog]

Thought there was a mail slot in the windshield.

There is.  It is visible in his photos.

[PH14]

Congratulations, Brian! The bike looks great. Glad you found one close by and got it before the weather got too bad.

[B.D.F.]

Thanks for the well- wishes Gents!

Just ordered the first piece- a fender extender. Will be ordering a bunch of little stuff starting today, things like bar risers and such. Also going to start working on both bikes- I have to remove the comm. system from the '08 and install that on the '16 as well as power taps for heated gear, both of which we need right away. Also both GPSs as the main one of them feeds into the comm. system for both my music as well as cell phone. And that reminds me, I have to dig the Bluetooth dongle out of the tail piece (Easy Boys! the tail piece on the bike) as that is Andrea's cell connection into the comm. system. As I remember, that was painful to install and so should be doubly so to R&R.

Noticed on the way home how sluggish it is on the low end- going to have to address that too, either with a flash or a Power Commander and fly-ectomy.

I was basically on my own back in '07 and '08 as there was virtually no knowledge or information on this bike then. I <believe> I was the first one to hang  a Rostra on one of these but at least the first to publicize it- now it is old hat with all kinds of mods. and improvements to the original install. Kinda' nice to be on the longer road here as it is a lot easier to order and install than to conjure and guess (Buell pegs fit but only after some mods.). Quite a few of us 'old timers' discovered and shared all kinds of info. on this forum starting way back then.

I am not particularly happy with the gen. 2 fairings on the C-14 and have tried to avoid R&R'ing the maid mid- fairings because of the way they tab and rubber gasket to each other and the bike. I watched a few tabs get broken off and that is definitely off- putting. It is beneficial regarding less heat flowing over the rider but I definitely prefer to work on the earlier model as well as preferring the looks. Not too terrible as long as I get better at dealing with the fairing before snapping off the interlocking parts..... 

[connie_rider]

Noticed on the way home how sluggish it is on the low end- going to have to address that too, either with a flash or a Power Commander and fly-ectomy.

I suggest a Flash as it's easier, {probably cheaper} and if there is something you don't like, adjustment's can be requested/done.

NOTE: I am intentionally NOT suggesting which Flash to purchase.
 {I prefer the one I have, but I have not tried a flash from the other supplier and so I can not compare}.

Ride safe, Ted

[maxtog]

Noticed on the way home how sluggish it is on the low end- going to have to address that too, either with a flash or a Power Commander and fly-ectomy.

Life is short.  Just flash it.  Instant results, zero work, better results that can be had any other way.  No lost screws.  No splicing into pristine harnesses.  No fiddling.  Nothing to later fail.  'Just dew it' and be done with it!  Trust me, you will be glad you did.

I am not particularly happy with the gen. 2 fairings on the C-14 and have tried to avoid R&R'ing the maid mid- fairings because of the way they tab and rubber gasket to each other and the bike. I watched a few tabs get broken off and that is definitely off- putting.

They are much nicer looking and much more air-management-efficient than gen 1 fairings.  But they are, indeed, a pain in the ass to remove and install.  10 times worse if you have Canyons installed.  And yes, I have broken a few tabs- I think it is impossible not to.  Fortunately, the tabs don't seem to matter as much as I thought (at least the few I ruined).

[B.D.F.]

With all due respect, I believe you are generalizing and glossing over facts in an effort to make flashing the ECU the 'only' way to go.

I have personally removed the secondary 'flies from quite a few C-14's and ZX 14s successfully and not one of them proved to be difficult or tricky in any way. In fact, I have never heated the screws or felt the need to do so; merely using the correct driver and providing sufficient down- pressure (but not so much that it bends the throttle rod... sheesh!) is more than sufficient to simply remove the screws.

There should be no lost screws in removing the flies on a C-14 (or ZX 14 or any similar motorcycle). The upper or secondary butterflies are located over the primary butterflies, which are fully closed for the entire procedure. So even if one drops a screw (or seven screws), no big deal- just pick them up off the lower 'flies.

There is no splicing involved with a Power Commander- it is 'plug 'n play' and depending on where purchased, it has a map already loaded and is ready to go.

Fiddling- not sure what 'fiddling' you speak of but there is none that I am aware of.

You clearly have a preference for the (I believe) one item you have tried. A common human situation but I feel compelled to point this out- choosing a favorite method without any actual experience to compare it with is.... well, pretty much useless. Like trying exactly one bottle of wine and then pronouncing it wonderful, especially compared with other drinks, and clearly the best choice. I have personally ridden many miles on a C-14 with a PC III and a custom (my own) map and with the 'flies removed. I very much like it and would not hesitate to do it again, although of course with a PC V as a PC III will not work on a gen. 2 C-14. I have also ridden C-14's with both Shoodaben (sp?) and Ivan's and found them to be good, with a distinct nod toward Ivan's but am not convinced it is better than a re-mapped and 'flies- removed C-14. I would agree it is the easier way but that certainly does not make it, or anything else in life, the 'best' way to go. In the end, I probably will go with an Ivan re-flash and if I find it lacking, will probably grab a system that allows charting the mixture in real- time and re-flashing the ECU on my own. More expensive but tailored for the use in mind.

I honestly hope this critique is taken in the manner meant, which is the free and honest exchange of ideas rather than any type of conflict, which is certainly not my intention. That said, our ideas may conflict but we personally do not have to.

As to the second part of your post, well the 'best looking' is purely a matter of personal preference. I prefer the looks of the first generation C-14 and especially do not care for the sweeping arc of the mid- fairings of the second generation C-14 fairings. To clarify, I do not despise them or there would not be a gen. 2 C-14 sitting in my garage at this moment :-) If I truly disliked the looks of a second Gen. C-14, there would almost certainly be a K1600 BMW sitting there instead.... which I both like the looks of and really (read: really, really, really!!!!!) like the idea of an inline six engine in a motorcycle. So while I do not find the second Gen. C-14 to be ugly in any way, I do prefer the lines and many of the features (central glove box, no wiring in the upper fairing covers, lower mirrors, and several other aspects) of the gen. 1 C-14. Of course I readily acknowledge that the second Gen. C-14's do a much better job of managing heat as felt by the rider(s) but would still prefer the sharper, angular and straight fairing lines of the early C-14s.

Back to the subject at hand, a front fender extender is the winner in the first farkle ordered contest :-)  Today will include a Rostra CC and keypad, a pair of handlebar risers and perhaps a set of hand air deflectors if I can find any suitable. I have two sets for the '08 and greatly prefer the Baker hand wings but they do not seem to be available for Gen. 2 C-14's anymore. The plan is to swap the Buell footpegs, the Calsci windshield (and MRA visor) as the stock '16 windshield is far, far too short, the Starcom1 comm. system, the dual- purpose taillight (yellow turn signals integrated into the tail lights), the GPS mounts, and a handful of other trinkets from the '08. Then all kinds of little things such as the BMW sport grips I really liked on the '08. Then the roar will slow to a trickle of little things such as the webbing in the saddlebags, a fantastic but foolishly simple thing.

Brian

Life is short.  Just flash it.  Instant results, zero work, better results that can be had any other way.  No lost screws.  No splicing into pristine harnesses.  No fiddling.  Nothing to later fail.  'Just dew it' and be done with it!  Trust me, you will be glad you did.

They are much nicer looking and much more air-management-efficient than gen 1 fairings.  But they are, indeed, a pain in the ass to remove and install.  10 times worse if you have Canyons installed.  And yes, I have broken a few tabs- I think it is impossible not to.  Fortunately, the tabs don't seem to matter as much as I thought (at least the few I ruined).

[maxtog]

With all due respect, I believe you are generalizing and glossing over facts in an effort to make flashing the ECU the 'only' way to go.

For most people, it is the best way.  It is much easier than removing throttle plates (which also sacrifices some of the traction control system) AND installing a PC.  Of course, you are not most people, so there is that

I feel compelled to point this out- choosing a favorite method without any actual experience to compare it with is.... well, pretty much useless.

I am familiar with both processes, even though I didn't actually perform them.   But you are right that I can't speak to the actual comparison of results, only the process.

[Oh, and no offense taken at all, but do realize I didn't formulate that opinion in a vacuum, lots of feedback on the forums has been helpful, yours included.]

Back to the subject at hand, a front fender extender is the winner in the first farkle ordered contest :-)  Today will include a Rostra CC and keypad, a pair of handlebar risers and perhaps a set of hand air deflectors if I can find any suitable. I have two sets for the '08 and greatly prefer the Baker hand wings but they do not seem to be available for Gen. 2 C-14's anymore.

Since the mirrors are considerably higher, I find that there isn't as much air on my hands as I would expect.  Even with risers.  It is something you might need to experiment with (if you haven't already).... perhaps deflectors won't be needed.  Can't say.  One thing is for sure- you are riding in MUCH colder weather than I do.  But with the heaters on maximum and even medium weight gloves, I have no problems, even in the mid 40's (F).  Below that, I would need to switch to winter gloves, which I hate, because I feel like I am not in control.

[...]

I notice you didn't mention headlights...   

[B.D.F.]

Great- glad to hear you are not offended. That honestly was not my intention although I do understand the line between words such as firm or honest and harsh or nasty are often too close, especially when writing without the benefit of personal interaction.

My first and only ride was Sat. bringing the bike home. I honestly did not think I would be able to take possession of a motorcycle that day and so only brought my winter riding jacket with me, so I rode home with bare hands and head (yep, no helmet, which is legal in my state but perhaps not a great idea) jeans and sneakers. It was in the low 40's and I immediately noticed how cold my hands were with the 'ice wind' on them. The mirrors are higher on gen. 2 bikes, as you point out, but not high enough to block direct airflow to the hands. My fingers were numb shortly, even with the heated grips. This affirms my original thought that heated hand grips would be wonderful perhaps light gloves when it was, say, 62F outside. As I typically ride all winter, well below freezing temps, heated winter riding gloves are needed and I doubt I will ever again use the heated grips. A truly useless upgrade to me, although I can see where others like them for just taking the edge off when it is 'chilly' rather than truly cold outside. I have Baker hand wings on my '08 and while they did make a set for second gen. C-14's, my originals may still work because the originals only use one fairing screw to mount them anyway.

I found out that the second gen. windshield is far too short for me also. While taller than the gen. 1 windshields, I had to practically lay down on the tank to get my bare head out of the windstream. So the 6+ CalSci on my '08 plus the MRA visor extension will be going on the '16 as well. I <believe> the older windshields fit as long as the old type hardware is used in place of the new vent assembly in the windshield.

Headlights- they will wait until later in the winter when I can take the bike down to install them. Because they have not been tried in a C-14 in actual use, I expect some twiddling will be needed to have them work correctly. I am looking forward to using them though and I expect excellent light output and control out of them. The projectors are out of an Infinity FX35, renowned for their excellent headlights. One problem that they will not address is side / upper lighting when cornering though. These days though I may be able to fit a small LED spotlight inside the housing that points up and outward (away from the centerline of the bike) to throw some light on the road when the bike is leaned over. A slick thing that could be added would be to switch each light on automatically whenever the high beams are on and the bike is leaned over more than, say, 6 or 8 degrees. Fairly easy to do with the solid state accelerometers available today though we will see if I ever actually put the time in to actually making something to do that.

<snip>

[Oh, and no offense taken at all, but do realize I didn't formulate that opinion in a vacuum, lots of feedback on the forums has been helpful, yours included.]

Since the mirrors are considerably higher, I find that there isn't as much air on my hands as I would expect.  Even with risers.  It is something you might need to experiment with (if you haven't already).... perhaps deflectors won't be needed.  Can't say.  One thing is for sure- you are riding in MUCH colder weather than I do.  But with the heaters on maximum and even medium weight gloves, I have no problems, even in the mid 40's (F).  Below that, I would need to switch to winter gloves, which I hate, because I feel like I am not in control.

I notice you didn't mention headlights...   

[Coomers]

First of all Congrats on the new bike!, I've been in and out of this form for a number of years and have always enjoyed you posts.

If its ok to go off topic for a moment I’d like to chime in with my experience on I’m surely the over debated Fly’s out vs Flash conundrum.

I pulled the fly’s and added a Fuel Moto PC 5 on my 08 Conny, I later added an Area P exhaust with a Fuel Moto remap and was extremely happy with the power and increased fuel economy. I was extremely happy till I had my ZX 14R flashed by Ivan that is. For the sake of this post let’s assume for the moment that the power and fuel economy between the flash and removing the fly’s are similar. The rideability is where I found the flash really made a difference. The engine was smoother, don’t asked me how it just was. The shifting was significantly better, with the fly’s out the RPM’s drop very quickly while changing gears which made gear changes notchy and having to add a little throttle for a smooth transition, with Ivan’s flash the rpm’s slowly descended making the gear changes much more synchronized. Then there’s the fans coming on earlier, less driveline lash because the throttles aren’t completely shut off when the throttle is closed and a host of other subtle improvements that all added up to a much nicer and more refined ride.

I’m pulling the plastic on my new to me 2018 Conny for other reasons and would have no trouble removing the fly’s, but after my experience with my ZX 14R, My ECU is going to Ivan. Other flashes may be better or worse I don’t know, but if someone is considering a flash I’d recommend going to Ivan's site, grab a beer and read all the changes he makes to your ecu, it’s quite remarkable

[B.D.F.]

It is fine with me- the point to this thread is finished anyway, I did buy a new (to me) bike. So 'Should I do it' is kinda' in the rearview mirror now

I will almost certainly try a flash simply because it is so easy and about the same price as a Power Commander anyway. If I want to change after the flash, the next step is a kit to monitor the mix via O2 sensor, make a map of the actual mixture in real- time, then flash the ECU with the generated mixture map. A nice solution but a bit more than I want to spend for one bike.

The big problem with smooth shifting for me has always been throttle cable play- I find the right amount to be zero. The bike I just picked up is several steps beyond a little, or even a lot, slack. Taking the slack out and wrapping the handlebar with Teflon tape is all that I have found is needed for a very precise throttle resulting in a very smooth shifting bike.

First of all Congrats on the new bike!, I've been in and out of this form for a number of years and have always enjoyed you posts.

If its ok to go off topic for a moment I’d like to chime in with my experience on I’m surely the over debated Fly’s out vs Flash conundrum.

I pulled the fly’s and added a Fuel Moto PC 5 on my 08 Conny, I later added an Area P exhaust with a Fuel Moto remap and was extremely happy with the power and increased fuel economy. I was extremely happy till I had my ZX 14R flashed by Ivan that is. For the sake of this post let’s assume for the moment that the power and fuel economy between the flash and removing the fly’s are similar. The rideability is where I found the flash really made a difference. The engine was smoother, don’t asked me how it just was. The shifting was significantly better, with the fly’s out the RPM’s drop very quickly while changing gears which made gear changes notchy and having to add a little throttle for a smooth transition, with Ivan’s flash the rpm’s slowly descended making the gear changes much more synchronized. Then there’s the fans coming on earlier, less driveline lash because the throttles aren’t completely shut off when the throttle is closed and a host of other subtle improvements that all added up to a much nicer and more refined ride.

I’m pulling the plastic on my new to me 2018 Conny for other reasons and would have no trouble removing the fly’s, but after my experience with my ZX 14R, My ECU is going to Ivan. Other flashes may be better or worse I don’t know, but if someone is considering a flash I’d recommend going to Ivan's site, grab a beer and read all the changes he makes to your ecu, it’s quite remarkable

[maxtog]

so I rode home with bare hands[]It was in the low 40's and I immediately noticed how cold my hands were with the 'ice wind' on them. The mirrors are higher on gen. 2 bikes, as you point out, but not high enough to block direct airflow to the hands. My fingers were numb shortly, even with the heated grips. This affirms my original thought that heated hand grips would be wonderful perhaps light gloves when it was, say, 62F outside.

Bare hands would be freezing no matter what.  I use medium weight gloves most of the year, including most of the winter (solid palm, lightly perf back and breathable center area between the two, zero insulation), and with them don't even use/need the heated grips until it is about 56F or so, and even then only on low.  As the temps drop, I will raise it higher, until it hits maximum.  At around 42 or so, medium gloves are not heavy enough with heat on maximum and would have to switch to insulated gloves for extended riding.  With such heavier gloves, it does take a longer time for the heated grips to be effective.  Above 76F or so, I switch to thin/light-weight summer gloves.

[Boomer]

Congrats on the new bike Brian. Sounds like you need to pace yourself with the farkling though. 

[B.D.F.]

Thanks!

I have been two days, though not full days, taking off old farkles from the '08 and am not done yet. I have got to get taps in for heated gear, the comm. system and the taller windshield on the new bike right away though or we cannot ride it as it is cold out.

I am also contemplating a new GPS; currently using a Zumo 550 as the main GPS and it is wired into the comm. system. The problem is that no models after the 550, which is fairly old, have sound taps in them as they are strictly Bluetooth. So very many first- world problems, eh?

Congrats on the new bike Brian. Sounds like you need to pace yourself with the farkling though. 

[maxtog]

I am also contemplating a new GPS; currently using a Zumo 550 as the main GPS and it is wired into the comm. system. The problem is that no models after the 550, which is fairly old, have sound taps in them as they are strictly Bluetooth. So very many first- world problems, eh?

Yeah.  I finally gave up on Garmin/Zumo.  Just too expensive.  After my last one failed, again, I decided to just use my phone in an X mount with a magnetic power coupler and Sena bluetooth for helmets.  Loaded the maps off-line into Google maps (free), which was pretty easy then use "Google Auto" (free) as the app.  Also stitched capacitive thread on the end of the left index finger of all my riding gloves.  I have been very happy with that setup for over two years now.  I have full maps, full nav, music, coms, phone, text-to-voice-to-text, etc.  Something to consider.

[B.D.F.]

Well, after a couple of weeks working on the '16 as time allows, I have changed my mind regarding the gen. 2 fairings; I used to really dislike them and avoid them whenever possible..... how I despise them. Truly awful arrangement with all the soft rubber edging that folds, spindles and mutilates into the bike's engine to seal them. Between the little tabs that slip into the rubber, and the multiple places that two and sometimes three parts have to blend and fit not only each other but into crooks and crannies in the engine and frame, it is horrible. There are also rubber baffles under the fairing that seal the radiator venting spaces from the rest of the cowling, and they too are a gigantic PITA to R&R or even work nearby. Everything is tight, very finicky regarding fitting and held in place by either plastic rivets (DOH!) or simple 'mash' into place in spaces here and there (double DOH!). It would be a lot easier to work on and with if each piece firmly attached to something, and then the next part of the fairing attached to the previous, etc. But this process where three things, one of them rubber, all come together and sort of 'argue' into place is just unpleasant and imprecise IMO.

There are more differences between this bike an my '08 than I was expecting. The entire fairing framework is different, and that is not a bad thing, just different. I bought BMW sport grips thinking that the grips on the '16 were covers but they are the actual heating element molded in with the grips and wiring. So to change them, I will have to remove the wiring and get an earlier throttle tube to put the right grip on. So I will hold off on that for a while but I really do dislike the straight, hard plastic grips and much prefer the tapered, rubber BMW grips so that will probably be changed in the future.

The '16 also has the evaporative fuel system so I suppose Kawasaki got tired of making two different C-14's for the US market, one for CA and one for the other states. Not a problem though it does steal a little room under the top / right fairing as well as behind and under the fuel tank.

The plumbing and wiring on the bike is considerably better than it was on the '08. A minor point but it is nice to see progress there.

I am currently working on the method of installing a Rostra on the '16. I think the actuator will end up in a similar place under the left cowling, most likely higher than it was on the '08. Also working on the method of attaching the cable end to the throttle arm, really trying to simplify that. I believe it can be done with one single piece of mounting bracket but have not actually done that yet.

The weather here has been excellent for working in an unheated building with a sweatshirt! Early Dec. and no coat needed, which is great.

And the tires are PR 5's, not even scrubbed in yet. No experience with this tire though I did really like the PR2's and PR3's.

Off to sit and ponder that Rostra mounting a little later tonight.

[connie_rider]

I hated the Connie grips too, and installed thin-wall sleeves over the OEM grips.
Cheap but a lot more comfortable, and the heat still works fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-106-MM-Soft-TRP-Motorcycle-Motorbike-Handle-Grips-Handbrake-Covers-/174497432527?var=&hash=item28a0db83cf

Ride safe, Ted